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Stuff about Goombas

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Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)

Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)

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I haven't made a thread here in awhile, and while I usually don't really care to tend to a lot of the stuff on here I disagree with, and with no disrespect, but the Goomba page is just really bad. I have no idea why the page portrays it as so adamantly being against scaling Goombas to any character. While there are a lot of things saying that Goombas are fodder, they have a lot of statements implying they are actually powerful, and the whole narrative of a Goomba is that people believe their weak, and this belief is what drives people to become powerful, as we see in the remake of Superstar Saga. The Toad page here has them scaling to the heroes, yet Toads have been shown in Super Mario RPG to fear Goombas. In Superstar Saga, the same rock that we scale Goombas to was too powerful for Mario and Luigi to break without the Super Hammer, and they also survived the explosion of the Bowser Cruiser caused by Fawful that knocked out the heroes. Bowser consistently sends Goombas as enemies against the Mushroom Kingdom, and we've seen many Goombas be revered as actually powerful, like Bowser recognising Captain Goomba, with Captain Goomba also fighting against the Koopalings, and we have Goombario and Goombella, too, as well as Gloombas actually being seen in the Paper Mario games as a threat and Hyper Goombas being stated to be able to do serious damage to Mario, even though they're just regular Goombas who are green with envy from their jealousy of Mario going on adventures. Now I'm not saying that Goombas should actually full-on scale to Mario, I'm just saying that they are enemies in the story for a reason, and shouldn't really be like fully irrelevant to every character in the verse. A few more examples of Goombas being powerful is how Bowser uses them as a summoning attack in Bowser's Inside Story that he uses against Mario and Luigi in their fight, Kammy Koopa believing a single Goomba would be capable of guarding a chest from Mario in the Shy Guy's Toy Box, and Bowser Junior using Goombas in his army despite being stated almost as powerful as Bowser.

I'd also like to mention that the hierarchy of the Koopa Kingdom literally doesn't even have Goombas at the bottom, it has the "Ghost Family", "Creatures", the "Dinosaur Family", and also being relative to the "Flower Family", "Sea Creatures", the "Mech Corps", and the "Weapon Corps", only being surpassed by Koopas.
 
I agree with this notion, I feel as though the statements suggesting Goombas are the weakest don't really show any validity when it comes to some of the stuff they've shown, or perhaps have been retconned. I think the points you made are a good first step to doing the Goombas justice. Not to mention that in Dream Team Bros, Goombas are actually pretty strong compared to quite a lot of the enemies found on Pi'illo Island (which would logically make them not the weakest race). Koopas seem to view Goombas are pretty valuable members of the Koopa Troop in Superstar Saga, and it's only really the higher-ups, like the Koopalings, who look down upon them. Early game in Minion Quest, they can fight Hammer Bros and take Bob-Omb explosions too, so they shouldn't be too far behind the crowd. Captian Goomba and Private Goomp also took a hit from Fawful's helmet, the same one that caused the Koopa Cruiser explosion, and the former can fall off cliffs without much difficulty earlyish game.

Also, you mention Toads are shown to be fearful of Goombas in Mario RPG, and I'd say that in Mario Odyssey this still rings true, what with Goomba Woods being seen as slightly scary and a Moon revolving around scaring a Toad with a Goomba Capture.

I agree that they probably wouldn't scale to the Mario and co, though, yeah. I personally sit them at Tier 7 due to tanking the Bye-Bye Canon in Dream Team Bros, which should be High 7-C, and being a fair distance away (they were in the stadium audience) from the Mario Power Tennis explosion that Death Battles concluded would be 7-B , and so to account distance would likely fall back to High 7-C, making them consistently at that level of durability, and stuff like Minion Quest shows they can harm each other. But hey, that one's just me.

So... yeah, basically that's an overly long way of saying I support this thread.
 
>Hadou

>LuckyEmile

I haven't seen you guys (here) in decades u,u

Btw, I also support this.
 
I'm always active places and lurking here, watching the place, but I just don't normally intervene, I made a stop to bring the Goombas the Justice they need. ;-;

And also, great.
 
Looks pretty good to me. I think the best way to handle this is to find & calc some feats for the Goombas
 
I suppose a proposal should be something like some tier in tier 7 using the feats Emile mentioned as well as some other kinetic energy feats they should scale to to put them as like "7-[ ], likely High 4-C" for having actual tier 7 feats, but also just scaling relatively to the protagonists and Toads on occasion as we've already demonstrated.
 
I trust Sera's sense of judgement, but you should ask Dino to comment here. He is our main Mario expert.
 
I think scaling goombas to High 4-C based off higher-end feats for the protagonists is getting excessive.

If they have actual tier 7 feats though, those should be fine, with maybe a "likely/possibly higher".
 
Protagonist Toad(s), not every random Toad (who should not scale nearly as high). Even then it's kinda weird.

Goombas not being complete fodder does not mean the protagonists themselves aren't expected to deal with them with relative ease.
 
Oh, I'm aware, and I completely agree that every Goomba obviously shouldn't scale, same with every Toad, all I'm saying is that there are some Goombas that are powerful. I guess we could have a varying key and bring up times where Goombas perform to direct tier 7 stuff for random fodder Goombas and then bring up notable moments where Goombas should be powerful. I also think the same scaling distinction should be made on the page of Toads, considering the page as is can be confusing. If not a varying key for Goombas, it could be a higher end key for like the Hyper Goomba or something.
 
Our Goomba and Koopa profiles are based on the regular enemies who obviously don't scale directly from Mario; but if they have their own legit Tier 8 or 7, those are fine; but will need proper calcs first. Named goombas such as Goombella or Goombario can scale from Mario though for similar reasons Toad does.
 
Well, if you disagree with the profiles then I suggest finding such feats that puts them in a higher scale you propose. That being said, I still refuse to scale the enemies to majority of the Mario cast. As DarkDragon pointed out, established and notable characters of the same species can be exceptions. Apart from that, simply note anything that puts them higher than they currently are. From there, we can change the profile and probably scale it from other notable enemies or characters such as Koopa Troopa or Poochy.
 
Sorry to suddenly enter but, In the Bowsers Minions, Minnions quest

Goombas and minions are able to fight next to the Koopa Kids and beat people who are capable of hurting the Koopa Kids. (though they are still notably weaker, but still). And even near the end of the game, fought with Lud wig and Liggy. And defeated some of Fawfuls robots and minions.(Major plot point for the game). And not just goombas too. But all minions. Boos, hammer bros, Koopas, shy guys, ect. That game seem to imply while bowsers minions are weaker than the main tiers, they still can damage them to a notable scale. and not like the orginal mario games where it can just be labled more so as game mechanic. Since this one establishes they can injure other mario characters too. I think it would be fair to give them some sort of degree in scaling. Obviously not to Mario yea. But some degree with or under the Koopas Kids. Who are notable characters. (I even know a clip that shows just a bunch of goombas fighting with two of the koopa kids and a few others and them beating one of them if needed.)

Since they can take hits from all of them, injure them, beat them, react to them, and other characters who can do the same. (And these do seem to be the normal goombas) . At least having it at "Possibly" or "At their peak".

Like what we do with Aquaman. Would seem wrong to not use what the entire game has consisted of.


Also it should give them Non-Physical Interaction from being able to injure the Boos in this game. and also riding the boo at the end of the game
 
I'm pretty sure nameless Goombas going toe to toe with the Koopa Kids is PIS/Game Mechanics; the captains scaling are probably fine if Dino is okay with that. And not sure about speed, but they might scale from casual Mario cast such as the Relativistic+ low ends Midbus and Waluigi scale from. Non-Physical Interaction also sounds fine to me.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I'm pretty sure nameless Goombas going toe to toe with the Koopa Kids is PIS/Game Mechanics; the captains scaling are probably fine if Dino is okay with that. And not sure about speed, but they might scale from casual Mario cast such as the Relativistic+ low ends Midbus and Waluigi scale from. Non-Physical Interaction also sounds fine to me.
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What exactly prevents it though, like what feats would make it PIS? After all. The entire game is about bowsers minions having to fight back against Fawfuls minions, each other, and the Koopa kids. While Goombas are shown to not be the strongest. They still have to scale to some degree. The captain Goomba isn't the only one fight them. It's all of them. Is there any other feats that would constricted scaling? I mean. The fact some of the statements also suggest the Goombas are stronger seems to back up they can scale.
 
Because game mechanics often make power scaling inconsistent. And it's not like we make fodder skeletons from the Castlevania series Tier 4 or Tier 2 scaling from the Belmonts, nor are Deku Scrubs Tier 6 to 4 scaling from Link or Zelda. Mario and Bowser are usually portrayed as characters who effortlessly curbstomp millions of Goombas in canon. PIS is very common in a lot of video games; also NPC security guards from various RPG protagonists don't scale from RPG protagonists via arresting them or blocking them from entering castles.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Because game mechanics often make power scaling inconsistent. And it's not like we make fodder skeletons from the Castlevania series Tier 4 or Tier 2 scaling from the Belmonts, nor are Deku Scrubs Tier 6 to 4 scaling from Link or Zelda. Mario and Bowser are usually portrayed as characters who effortlessly curbstomp millions of Goombas in canon. PIS is very common in a lot of video games; also NPC security guards from various RPG protagonists don't scale from RPG protagonists via arresting them or blocking them from entering castles.
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That doesn't give reason why they can't scale to the Koopa kids. Of course they lose to Mario and bowser cause their high tier. That would be like saying

"Oh, spiderman can't scale to Wolverine cause he lost to Thor" Thor and wolvirine are in different tiers. And so is Mario and the Koopa kids. They fought an earlier Mario. Which current Mario should curb stomp them. The Koopa kids are mid tiers. And this game proves that all of bowsers minions can combat and injure each other. Mario is the one who fodderizes them. Not the Koopa kids. The only time the Koopa kids fought them. They could fight with them decently well.
 
Koopa Kids are below Mario, Bowser, and Bowser Jr yes, but they're at least bosses comparable to various Power Star enhanced bosses. That being said I was more neutral when they were getting scaled from Mario. And they actually somewhat kept up with Mario when he fights them; far more so than any Goomba or Koopa Troopa. Or even Kamek losing to a couple of Goombas also seems PIS'ish as he's in the same boat as the Koopalings but his magic has the ability to turn like hundreds of Goombas into dust.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Koopa Kids are below Mario, Bowser, and Bowser Jr yes, but they're at least bosses comparable to various Power Star enhanced bosses. That being said I was more neutral when they were getting scaled from Mario. And they actually somewhat kept up with Mario when he fights them; far more so than any Goomba or Koopa Troopa. Or even Kamek losing to a couple of Goombas also seems PIS'ish as he's in the same boat as the Koopalings but his magic has the ability to turn like hundreds of Goombas into dust.
Click to expand...
That just means so are the Goombas and Koopas. Cause again. What actual feats contract it. Yes, it's shown Goombas are one of the weakest characters. And can get pummeled by Mario. But again. Mario is still a high tier. It makes sense he does. A person who can be as far as Galaxy (not including the paper Mario) would obviously pummel characters who can be labeled at Large star. It's not like we are seeing Goombas being pummeled by Large star levels. We see in this game them fighting with several of them. You say they could turn them into ash. But there's nothing to actually back that up. This game seems to completely deny that. Adding in the fact statements also imply they are way stronger than given credit for. Being able to scare toads should also back it up considering what we have seen toads do. Several of the species have scaled to Mario Pre Galaxy games. Which would make them Large star. Which would then add up with Goombas scaling even more.
 
Actually, a scene like that did happen before, in a different game. Kamek has warped entire castles turning a bunch of fodder characters into stuff like coins or brick blocks before; but for some reason doesn't do that in gameplay for Bowser's Minions. And yes, it's because Power Stars from Mario 64 are the same Power Stars from the Galaxy Games born from Lumas and stuff. As well as Mario defeating Power Star enhanced bosses without any Power Stars himself is the reason for his High 4-C tier; and Yoshi's feat.

But still, Bowser's Minions is pretty inconsistent and makes the nameless Goombas and Koopas appear much stronger than their supposed to be. While at the same time, they make the Koopalings and other important leaders nerfed.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Actually, a scene like that did happen before. Kamek has warped entire castles turning a bunch of fodder characters into stuff like coins or brick blocks before; but for some reason doesn't do that in gameplay for Bowser's Minions. And yes, it's because Power Stars from Mario 64 are the same Power Stars from the Galaxy Games born from Lumas and stuff. As well as Mario defeating Power Star enhanced bosses without any Power Stars himself is the reason for his High 4-C tier; and Yoshi's feat.

But still, Bowser's Minions is pretty inconsistent and makes the nameless Goombas and Koopas appear much stronger than their supposed to be. While at the same time, they make the Koopalings and other important leaders nerfed.
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When did this happen? Was it after Bowsers minions quest? Also. That is more hacks than it is AP. Hacks can do that to character in your level to higher.

And he is High 4-C tier at least. As power stars can vary in power. And bowser had more than one when they fought. This Mario at this time never fought with the Koopa kids.

And again. What proves they can't be that strong: the kamek feat all that does is prove Kamek is hacky. Of course he could do that to someone relative to his level. Even if they were dead even as strong as kamek, no doubt he could do it. And that doesn't change the fact that they can still injure each other and other star levels. The list of people they have implied scaling or actual scaling is pretty large. The Seven Koopa kids, Toad, and others. It doesn't exactly seem all that inconsistent

And that's also why I suggest "At their peak" Or "Possibly".

As. The game shows they all are relatively close to each other's levels. There are clearly stronger ones Koopa kids are stronger than average Goombas. But they can hurt each other and tank hits from each other. Meaning they should still be in the same ballpark. They are just weaker.
 
The Kamek feat happened in a Yoshi's Island game I think; a different game. Kamek and the Koopalings do consistently survive multiple attacks from the likes of Mario and Bowser unlike 99.9% of Goombas and Koopas. Mario protagonists are at least High 4-C yes, but Goombas harming them is more so game mechanics. We're still only comfortable with making special Goombas High 4-C though.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
The Kamek feat happened in a Yoshi's Island gameI think; a different game. Kamek and the Koopalings do consistently survive multiple attacks from the likes of Mario and Bowser unlike 99.9% of Goombas and Koopas. Mario protagonists are at least High 4-C yes, but Goombas harming them is more so game mechanics. We're still only comfortable with making special Goombas High 4-C though.
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Well. As I brought up, It's a hack. Not really a power feat. He could do that to other people on his level.

And this game happens much after those games. It can easily be a buff in power. The difference between yoshis Island and Bowsers minions quest is several years. And we have Mario top tiers are At least High 4-C

But the mid tiers like Kamek and Koopa kids are just left at 4-C. And no higher.
 
Here's what I'll bring to the table:

https://youtu.be/LucQPcDJ7uQ?t=124

its takes a total of 12 "fodders" (3 goombas included in that funny moment) to push back / momentarily match Bowsa in a quick time event, plotish point moment.

Note that this is before Bowser gets gets even stronger during this game to the point he takes down a perfect copy of himself imbued with an attack potency that surpassed his mega form. And yeah, going by Dream Team the main cast does get even stronger.

Random goombas/toads should be on the order of tens or more times weaker than Luigi or one of his peers, if not more so of a gap going by calcs and featz than if you are to outright powerscaling from instances like above.
 
We don't usually divide power like that to backwards scale; and Bowser was in a more casual state at the time. Also, the plot of Mario RPGs pretty much ignores the level up system; especially considering the cast somehow would get much weaker when going from one game to the sequel. I still think it's pretty much the same scenario as Link getting kicked out by Hylian Soldiers in Ocarina or Crono being arrested Guardian soldiers.
 
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