Sun Wukong Buddhahood revision.

[Lanens]

Note: This thread was closed without a complete explanation, the debate is still going here: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1770055#17

I saw that you guys used some mahayana quote to prove that Sun wukong is low-2c ignoring the rest of the literature...

The place of the real avatar of the Buddha (Sambhogakaya) is an outerversal domain outside space and time and even duality..

The Ghanavyüha Sütra states:
"The buddhas abiding in that place
praise Ghanavyüha.
Ghanavyüha has existed from beginningless time.
A self-originated emanation is there,
the stainless Buddha.
Dwelling beyond the three elements (fire, air, and water),
that place is without grasping to bliss,
it is free from the experience of I and mine,
it is unchanging, ultimately permanent, and stable.
Ghanavyüha is unconditioned.
The perfect buddhas awaken [there]
but without buddhahood in the supreme place, Akaniṣṭha,
the deeds of the buddha will not be performed in the desire realm.
Once they depart Ghanavyüha
ten million emanations of the Buddha
will always remain in yogic equipoise."

And is Timeless, without dimension and beyond duality.
"When consciousness transforms,
it is Ghanavyüha free from mind.
It is not the domain of those with concepts.
The palace of the Tath─ügata, Ghanavyüha,
did not arise in the past and has no end;
it is arises from the power of natural perfection;
without a cause, does not arise from karma;
it is not created by Iśvara;
it exists truly beyond
the desire, form, and formless realms.
As it is beyond the desire realm,
beyond the form realm, the formless realm,
the unconscious beings, and the cause of darkness—
this beautiful Ghanavyüha buddhafield
formed from space,
is not the domain of those with causes,
free from existence and nonexistence,
free from sameness and difference."

And remember that this place is where the supreme avatar of the Buddha abides (Sambhogakaya) as the real Buddha is not other than the Dharmakaya, which is just beyond all concepts.
This should put Buddha Wukong at least at tier 1-A if we are follow these mahayana accounts.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

That's a good point.

Also this


"Disciples," the Buddha said "nowhere between the lowest of hells below and the highest heaven above, nowhere in all the infinite worlds that stretch right and left, is there the equal, much less the superior, of a Buddha. Incalculable is the excellence which springs from obeying the Precepts and from other virtuous conduct." - Apannaka Jataka


I think, "at least 2-A, likely 1-A"

 

[Lanens]

That's a good point.
Also this


"Disciples," the Buddha said "nowhere between the lowest of hells below and the highest heaven above, nowhere in all the infinite worlds that stretch right and left, is there the equal, much less the superior, of a Buddha. Incalculable is the excellence which springs from obeying the Precepts and from other virtuous conduct." - Apannaka Jataka


I think, "at least 2-A, likely 1-A"

That´s a good quote as well, and it´s part of the theravada literature where things were more "normal".

In mahayana, things change exponentially, making the concept of Buddhahood similar to some kind of yog sothoth godhead type of thing, and i think is plausible that lovecraft got some inspiration from it.

 

[Lanens]

So, mahayana cosmology is based in likely infinite layered worlds, and a bodhisattva which is inmeasurably inferior to a buddha, is present on all of those worlds (sounds familiar?, ultimate gods cough.. cough.)

"Listen, O sons of Buddha, one kalpa (or aeon) in this Saha world-the Land of Budha Sakyamuni- Is one day and one night in the great Happy Land of Buddha Amita; one kalpa in the Land of Buddha Amita, is one day and one night in the Land of the Buddha Diamond Strength, and one kalpa in the land of the Buddha Diamond Strength, is one day and one night in....
Continuing in this manner, passing millons of incalculable worlds, the last world (of this series) is reached. One kalpa there, is again one day and one night in the land of the buddha Supreme Lotus; Wherein, the Bodhisattva Samantabhadra and all the great Bodhisattvas now assembled here are also present there crowding the sky..."

The real avatar of the buddha (Sambhogakaya) just appears to tenth bhumi bodhisattvas in the place of ghanavyuha beyond all space, time and duality.

Here there is a example of what a bodhisattva can do:

".... When a Bodhisattva obtains the ten wisdoms, he can then perfom the ten universal enterings. What are they? They are: To bring all the universes into one hair, and one hair into all the universes; to bring all sentient beings bodies into one body, and one body into all sentieng beings` bodies; to bring inconceivable kalpas into one moment, and one moment into inconceivable kalpas" etc...

 

[Lanens]

It would be great if someone just post his opinion.

 

[Lanens]

Mahayana buddhism is just too OP guys. even more than hinduism.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Mahayana buddhism is just too OP guys. even more than hinduism.

No, Hinduism has a tier 0 with parabrahman.

 

[Lanens]

Mahayana buddhism is just too OP guys. even more than hinduism.

No, Hinduism has a tier 0 with parabrahman.

Parabrahman is a godhead just as the dharmakaya they are the same.

 

[Lanens]

Remember that im talking from a mahayana pov, theravadins dont believe in a godhead or anything like that-

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Yeah I know. Buddha started off human but became 1-A through sheer willpower, like Dr Strange on supersteroids.

 

[Lanens]

Yeah I know. Buddha started off human but became 1-A through sheer willpower, like Dr Strange on supersteroids.

That´s from a theravadin perspective, from a mahayana POV the "historical buddha" was not more than a emanation, he was no even an avatar, it was all play.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

So Mahayana Buddha is like GEOM in that he's a god pretending to be a man?

 

[Lanens]

So Mahayana Buddha is like GEOM in that he's a god pretending to be a man?

Mahayana Buddha is more like Yog Sothoth, GEOM is present in flesh, while the historical mahayana buddha was not more than an emanation.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Yeah dharmic religions are insane. They were like the first tier 1 "verses" ever.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

This is getting way too close to Real Life, Religious Hindu-Buddhist Philosophy, as opposed to its portrayal in the Fictional Journey to the West.

 

[Lanens]

This is getting way too close to Real Life, Religious Hindu-Buddhist Philosophy, as opposed to its portrayal in the Fictional Journey to the West.

Buddhahood wukong is featless in journey to the west, it should be scaled to the mahayana buddhism just as is apropiate for the time and place. You already used a lotus sutra quote but ignored the rest of literature im giving here.


(sorry for my bad english)

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

This is getting way too close to Real Life, Religious Hindu-Buddhist Philosophy, as opposed to its portrayal in the Fictional Journey to the West.

Then why is wukong 2-B from a buddhist quote and not just Low 2-C?

 

[Lanens]

bump

 

[Crzer07]

the Buddha-verse scales to sun wukong, doesnt it. a monkey dude thats been canonized into journey to the west, one of the four great classical chinese novels. JttW-verse should be the same as the Buddha-verse or Hindu-verse.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Spunds pretty far into 1-A if it is undimensioned and beyond both form and formless realms.

 

[Lanens]

Spunds pretty far into 1-A if it is undimensioned and beyond both form and formless realms.

And is Transdual, which is pretty much one of the strongest hax there are... As every buddha has the three bodies he should be at least 1-A in his buddhahood form..

 

[InfiniteBlack123]

I agree with 1-A, for the Victorious Fighting Buddha.

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

Oh my gosh, Buddhism too OP plz Nerf. Anyway, I agree with this.

 

[DMB_1]

Spunds pretty far into 1-A if it is undimensioned and beyond both form and formless realms.

Pretty sure that would be only a bit above baseline. Any 1-A is technically formless.

 

[Lanens]

Spunds pretty far into 1-A if it is undimensioned and beyond both form and formless realms.

Pretty sure that would be only a bit above baseline. Any 1-A is technically formless.

Well that would mean he trascends baseline 1-A by an uwknown margin, but having in mind that ghanavyuha is even beyond duality and causes and that it´s just a self reflection of his avatar, then im pretty sure he is way above baseline 1-A.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Pretty sure that would be only a bit above baseline. Any 1-A is technically formless.

Yes, but that quote states the Buddhahood is beyond formless.

 

[Lanens]

I think he is at least 1-A likely High 1-A

A tenth bhumi bodhisattva is already above baseline 1-A being able to take birth in Ghanavyuha Buddhafield

A sambhogakaya trascends all tenth bhumi bodhisattvas

The Dharmakaya Trascends the sambhogakaya and all concepts.

And All Buddhas posess the three bodies. say "Dharmakaya, Sambhogakaya and Nirmanakaya"

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Keep in mind that the difference between 1-A and High 1-A is at least as big as the one between 11-C and 1-A.

 

[DMB_1]

Keck no to High 1-A, I'm already iffy about 1-A.

 

[Lanens]

Keck no to High 1-A, I'm already iffy about 1-A.

Open to debate

 

[Lanens]

Keep in mind that the difference between 1-A and High 1-A is at least as big as the one between 11-C and 1-A.

That´s why i said likely since i dont think there are enough statements.

 

[DMB_1]

All right, "formed from sapce" kind of debunks the thing, and time isn't mentined at all.

 

[Lanens]

When it said is formed from space is saying All Space is contained in that realm, but that realm already trascends the concept of space and is beyond duality, so is not here not there, is not existant or existant. And about time, it´s said that the ghanavyuha buddhafield already trascends the three extremes of past, present and future so it´s timeless. And yes, time is already mentioned in the quote when it´s said is changeless and didn´t arise from the pass.

 

[Lanens]

In a moment i give you the quote from the three extremes.

 

[Lanens]

All right, "formed from sapce" kind of debunks the thing, and time isn't mentined at all.

Also you need to keep in mind is a little of semantics, ghanavyuha buddhafield is talking about being a palace... It obviously isn´t is so spoken like that for normal people to imagine.

 

[Lanens]

sgyu 'phrul rdo rje states:

"The Akanistha when the Sambhogakaya resides is highest of the Pure Worlds.

It´s nature trascends the three extremes (past, present and future)..."

Other quote:

"The nature of this pure land trascends the three limitations of existence-non existence, eternalism-nihilism and an elaborations"

Guhyagarbha Tantra

In the first sutta quote it already says is unconditioned, so is obviously not conditioned by time...

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

That's not High 1-A, but that is decently into 1-A.

 

[Lanens]

That's not High 1-A, but that is decently into 1-A.

Likely High 1-A is for the Dharmakaya being unmanifested, beyond concepts and every buddha posessing it as their "true self",

The Sambhogakaya emanates from the Dharmakaya.