Superman Reborn

[Heatforce]

Soooo....should the post-crisis and New 52 Superman profiles simply be combined? I have a feeling rebirth will merge all the new 52 characters with their post-crisis versions.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

I'm currently asking that question as well, i agree with with you to

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we might have to delete the post-Flashpoint profiles, yes.

However, it is complicated. The post-Flashpoint characters still did display lower power levels than the post-Crisis versions, both Supermen have currently had their histories combined, and the current version of Wonder Woman still has a different history than the George Perez version.

The post-Crisis and post-Flashpoint Batman profiles might be possible to merge more seamlessly, as their histories seem identical.

I will ask Matthew Schroeder for input.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I think only Superman's profile should be merged, as the two characters were portrayed as halves of the same whole (Same with Lois), which when fused gave birth to a new, complete Superman.

However, Post-Crisis and Post-Flashpoint are still two separate universes. Characters have different origins, histories, sometimes powers, different events happened or didn't happen, and things have an overall distinction between them.

Even Batman has major differences between both versions. Completely different origins (Year One =/= Zero Year), some of his villains have different origins, personalities and overall style, and entire events didn't happen (Notably, anything related to Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown).

The only character who didn't change at all is Green Lantern. Hal Jordan is basically the same thing since always.

I would be of the opinion of upgrading Post-Flashpoint to 4-B as well, but I dunno.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that it is possible that we should remove the post-Flashpoint Superman profile then. However, I think that other post-Flashpoint characters are scaled from it.

 

[Reppuzan]

Superman #20 is coming out tomorrow though. I'm still wondering if we should just double-check for feats from that issue before we jump to anything (but given comic-book inconsistency, this may still be the best option regardless of what they show us).

 

[Antvasima]

I doubt that we will instantly receive high-level feats within the first story.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Actually, New 52 Superman has a 4-B feat. Surviving a black hole.

The end result from it is 3.4410e+51 joules, which is fairly consistent with calcs done for Post-Crisis Superman.

Back then we just dismissed it outright because "lel, it's a black hole feat", and since the commonly-accepted as stronger Post-Crisis Superman was just considered 4-C here, it was treated as an outlier.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, surviving a black hole should be impossible, regardless if it is a 4-B or 3-A character, and likely applies to higher-dimensional structures and beings as well. As such, we do not count any such feats, since the black holes do not behave like real ones.

My apologies, but I am not willing to budge regarding this issue.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Why do you insist on applying real life theoretical science to fictional black holes, which can be calced and quantified?

Superman surviving the black hole was mathematically quantified as needing a certain number of energy. No such thing about requiring to be infinite, or higher-dimensional for it.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

All we need to do to quantify fictional black holes is:

• Determine the size through pixel scaling
• Use a Schwarzschild Radius calculator and discover how many solar masses a black hole of that size would have
• Use e=mc┬▓ and convert mass to energy, thus discovering the energy someone would need to endure to survive being inside that particular black hole.

 

[Antvasima]

I am way too exhausted, busy, and depressed to argue for long about this, but a calculation method based on Hawking radiation possibly gradually escaping from a black hole is not a viable comparison to solid physical entities.

And no, overcoming the force of a singularity would not work with any finite level of force, or likely even higher-dimensional infinite levels of force. It cannot be quantified in any logical mathematical manner. It is simply done anyway in order to get higher results for personally favoured characters.

Please read, and follow, the Black Hole feats in fictio regulation page. We cannot make exceptions just because we personally like a certain character, and have to try to strive towards as high logical coherence as possible.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I have read your standards, and I don't agree with them.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, as I mentioned, just because it is impossible to find a completely foolproof and coherent system, does not mean that we should abandon all logic.

Surviving a real black hole is impossible for any finite being, as is wrestling with one, deforming or treating it like putty, and similar. We can, however, calculate when a character has simply created one that apparently works like in reality.

 

[AndrewBennet]

[COLOR=rgba(0,0,0,0.870588)]Didn't current Superman outright shattered multiple universal boundaries ?[/COLOR]

http://m.imgur.com/u9WNYFd?r[COLOR=rgba(0,0,0,0.870588)]´╗┐[/COLOR]

 

[Antvasima]

It seems similar to the situation with Dominus, in which he broke free of reality-manipulation via willpower. I do not remotely think that we can count it as exceeding a universal continuum, or similar.

 

[Heatforce]

I'm definitely not that knowledgeable about physics but if surviving a black hole is impossible, wouldn't surviving an atomic bomb or a super nova also be theoretically impossible? Couldn't we simply gauge the size of the black hole and apply the feat that way? Like say if character X smashes a black hole the size of a marble, and since a black hole the size of a marble would roughly contain the mass of earth, couldn't we just say it was a planet level feat? I know tiering a black hole by its size is probably not correct but anything just seems better than saying all black hole feats just don't count. Either way, that's my 2 cents and all I have to say. Whatever the mods choose I will be fine with.

 

[Antvasima]

A black hole per definition destroys absolutely everything, regardless of the scale of power of what is affected, according to the laws of physics, whereas an atomic bomb or a supernova are simply concentrated releases of energy.

I would appreciate if everybody would immediately and permanently drop this subject. It is not what the thread was intended to be about.

 

[Heatforce]

@Antvasima, understood thanks for addressing. Also, regarding the post from @AndrewBennet, it does seem punching through reality may be a Superman standard? New 52 Superman does something similar here to brainiac:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/foru...th-feat-punch-spread-across-m-1865958/?page=1

So whichever profile we go with, I guess "limited space time manipulation" and "Resistance against Reality Warping" should be carried over from post-crisis as new 52 supes did something similar?

 

[Antvasima]

Possibly "Resistance to Reality Warping", but not anything else.

 

[AndrewBennet]

[COLOR=rgba(0,0,0,0.870588)]mxy created Infinite Planet as it is presented to us. With infinite possibilities. [/COLOR] http://imgur.com/a/kU3jX

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/Fm-COfLCbK...mOSCYXNEE7dDMs0S2DqpBBdZJAEdEfVsV0cfY9A=s1600

[COLOR=rgba(0,0,0,0.870588)]Earlier Mxy explains to John that each door leads to its own functioning universe.[/COLOR] http://imgur.com/a/kU3jX

 

[Heatforce]

Correct me if I'm wrong but it does seem more like time/ space manipulation (by punching through time/ space) rather than resistance to reality warping.

So post-crisis superman punched through time/ space, New 52 Superman punched braniac and all versions through the multiverse felt the punch and I'm not sure if it's relevant but superboy prime punched through time/ space as well, which I guess scaled to post-crisis superman and earth 2 superman in some way, maybe? So confusing O_O

I wonder what feat post- crisis superman accomplished in the past to get resistance to reality warping?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it technically seems more like thematic plot convenience, of overcoming falsehoods through perseverance, but given that Superman can definitely not demonstrate reality warping, resistance is all that we might be able to get away with.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Heatforce

I agree with Antvasima. Superman isn't depicted as being a universal character in the vast majority of his appearances, and those details tend to be stand-alone and not consistent with the overall nature of his powers.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Universal Superman?

Hai Tonathan.

But seriously, no. This has been discussed dozens of times already.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Heatforce

On second reading, I believe I misread your statements, but I'm still rather opposed to the idea of Superman getting space-time manipulation given that it's mainly used as a plot device rather than his standard power set.

 

[Antvasima]

@Reppuzan & Matthew What do you think about resistance to reality manipulation.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Antvasima

Given that Superman has had dozens of showings of it (albeit, against beings who really should be ridiculously above him like the Phantom Stranger and Mr. Mxyzptlk, Retcons not withstanding), I think it's fair game to give him Resistance to Reality Warping.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Feel free to add it to the page, although preferably with a few links provided earlier in the thread as extra explanation/justification.

 

[SinbadDaGod]

But don't you guys have Silver Age Superman at Universe level? Action Comics #975 confirmed Superman has memory of his Silver Age encounters with Mxy.

This is consistent with the fact he matched Earth-2 Superman who was just as strong as Silver Age Superman. And he has more Universe level feats than Silver Age Superman.

 

[SinbadDaGod]

Lois and Clark #1 confirmed they stopped the fusion of the Five universes at the end of COIE so Earth-1 was never turned into the Post Crisis reality. Its back in continuity.

I thinl its fair to have serious/Blood lust Superman at Universe tier. He has the scaling. And the feats. Superman could barely match an Imperiex Probe at normal levels but when bloodl lust he was one shotting the Probes.

^Joe Casey, the writer for that comic, Adventure of Superman #594 confirmed blood lust Superman could have beaten Imperiex Prime if the sight of Doomsday's death didn't snap him out of blood lust

I can prove every claim ive made

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we can probably chalk that up to severe inconsistency, outliers, and plot-induced stupidity. Post-Crisis Superman may be my favourite superhero character, but we are not going to rate him as 3-A. Sorry.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Seriously, Superman isn't 3-A.

 

[Heatforce]

I still think Superman (reborn) will end up being more powerful than either new 52 or post-crisis by themselves. Swamp Thing stated that post-crsis Superman was drawing more solar energy than new 52 Superman: https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2016/12/swamp-thing-heals-superman-rebirth-1.png

And new 52 Superman gave us the super flare...

Question: Swamp Thing can sense vibrational frequencies and can tell who's from different Universes. Isn't that a Speed Force thing ala Vibe?

 

[Reppuzan]

@Heatforce

We haven't seen anything really substantial out of Rebirth Superman yet, so it's too early to make conclusions. This vibrational thing hasn't been brought up again either.

 

[Antvasima]

@Reppuzan I agree that we should wait and see. Perhaps we should also close this thread?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yeah