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Tensura is NOT a multiverse! (Tensura cosmology downgrade) FINAL CONCLUSIONS!

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I am going to summarize my arguments from this CRT into conclusions.

The Conclusion​

Timelines/Cycles.​

The main Opposition for the 2A infinite timeline arguments are from Feldway

The opposition brings up that Hinata was corrected by chloe, but my response was that it was Hinata's thoughts running on, and not a separate person thinking, since we are in the head of Hinata, not chloe.

This wasn't chloe's thoughts because we knew Hinata was thinking up the theories as they went along, majority of Volume 11 chapter 5 was Hinata's thoughts, Chloe speaking to Hinata in Quotations and Hinata speaking directly to Chloe is within <>. So this is just misunderstanding who's saying what.
By the looks of it, my theory seems to be correct…

There really was only one world, and it did not allow the existence of a paradox.

—No, that’s not entirely true. It’s not that it doesn’t allow the existence of a paradox. It just stops the world from collapsing. If there was something strong enough, such as the creation of the mask, then even the paradox couldn’t destroy it, and instead only twist its existence. Otherwise, there’s no way to explain the existence of the peculiar mask.

It was also brought up that contradictions could exist if they were forced into the timeline enough which the mask did and should therefore disprove two chloes not being able to exist as a refutation.

I simply noted that as a converse fallacy of accident, trying to use an exception to outweigh the general rule, since Two chloes couldn't exist at the same time in a timeline, which wasn't refuted.

It was also said that two chloes can't exist in the same timeline no matter the era, not that it has to be the same time, which I refuted with this;
This doesn't even negate anything since Chloe was in the past, and came to the point where Chloe was being born, which was the time when she disappeared. So past chloe can exist in the same timeline, but as soon as chloe is summoned in said timeline, it creates two beings of the same soul, which means the chloe of the future/past, cannot exist because young chloe takes priority.
“Anyhow, Chloe will lose consciousness soon, right? That is probably what happens when two of the same entity exist at the same place in spacetime continuity. Hinata, I believe your theory is correct.”

‹Right. And then, Chloe’s younger self will be physically transported to that time period since she’ll have just been summoned.›
So when Chloe is summoned, that forces the other chloe to not exist anymore.

Leading on to talking about parallel worlds, it was noted that the use of the phrase was taken as a proof of existence, when I noted that in later volumes, it was restated and the term was changed to "other word" not parallel worlds;

No, because "parallel" worlds are redefined as Other world;

There was one world, and there were no parallel worlds. But there were other worlds.
There are NO parallel worlds. Meaning parallel worlds do not exist. So simply saying "parallel" doesn't conclude actual parallel worlds, but other worlds.
This was a line in volume 16, before the journey inter-dimensionally. And considering I've given evidence that parallel worlds were redefined to other worlds, simply bringing up lines from previous volumes doesn't retcon something after it.

So there was no overall proof, other than a mistranslation I already accepted not being usable, brought forth to argue against the fact that it was a singular timeline Chloe was looping in, considering her inability to exist in said timeline which goes against multiversal theory, and that the fact these cycle's are referred to timelines still stand without solid evidence refuting that point.

Also want to point out, Chloe never preposed a theory, it was primarily Hinata that was theorizing in the chapter. So Hinata was going through ideas, which eventually Finalized her thoughts, with the support of Luminas backing her theory, that the world is being remade after every cycle, which proves a single timeline.

Is it the size of a Universe? (REMOVED


Translation (REMOVED)


Does Expanding = Matter? (REMOVED)


Conclusion​


So if the Cycle argument is accepted in favor of the OP, then 2A should be removed from the following pages.
Also considering we have the main refutations regarding the sizes of these "universes" still called to question, we can conclude any rating in Tier 2 at all, unless of course someone brings up a very valid argument that those "Universes" are indeed the size of universes that would be classified under Vsbw's terms.

With what those profiles should instead have in it's place would be 3-C considering;
  • The proof of an interstellar world [Proves space travel between stars, meaning beyond solar system.]
  • Also if space does expand faster than the speed of light, and cardinal world and even the world of the Holy Arcia Empire would have at least 20,000 years of life, this would put the two worlds within galaxy level ranges at least.
Whether or not 3-B is dependent on how Veldanava created these worlds, either all at once or one at a time as I don't remember seeing anything that would elude to it being all at once.

At the moment, the possible downgrades would fall to 2-C at the highest with 3-C at the lowest.

If we accept a single Universe sized Realm with multiple others of unknown size, it'd be low 2-C with possibly higher.

If all universal sized realms are rejected, then it'd fall to 3-C with possibly 3-B scaling.

General Consensus is 2-C for the multiverse being accepted, awaiting Staff opinions.

Tagging Members​

Awaiting conclusions from @PrimeHydra64 @PHANtomFELdway and/or @Lycoris4812

Other Members who had major voices/were interested in this CRT; @EldemadeDityjon @Ultimuru @CodeCCLL @Robo432343 @Ruler_Star_Kuma @Amalyris @Vietthai96 @Shiraito983 @3Pencil @Caduz213 @Dog3352 @MeiouHades @AnviIndo28 @TheResonanceGuy123 @ashen @MrTayman616 @RitsuØ1 @Tatsumi504 (not going to reply to any arguments from you, this is strictly for staff discussion and for opposition conclusion.) If I missed anyone, please help tag them.

With the help of translator @SeijiSetto as the main translator

Only staff member to interact @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless who agreed.

Waiting on more staff, @Antvasima The discussion is now on the floor waiting for opposition conclusion and staff decision! (Let me know If I need to add anything for future reference!)

Agree: @FinePoint (Not 2-A but possibly so) @Celestial_Pegasus

Neutral:

Disagree:
 
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Did you get permission to post this on Staff Discussion?
Should've put that in the OP
 
To start off, I have to say that the OTL is flawed so take it with a grain of salt and also compare it to both wiki and SR translations before making judgements.

Experience death using the law of entropy reaches emptiness (My thoughts on it being heat death changed to being a big rip situation but that is for a future crt).

But in reality, I didn't know where I was. Even if I was told that this enormous colorless space was called "The End of Space-Time", it still wouldn't make any sense to me. Here, time didn't flow. And yet, unlike the "Suspended World", I couldn't perceive the expansion of space even if I was manipulating "Information Particles".
"Yes. Here, even the flow of time is halted. The expansion of space has stopped, and it has become nothingness, in accordance with the law of entropy." - Wiki Translated

Telling me that this vast, colorless, featureless space was the End of Space and Time didn’t give me a lot to work with, though. Time wasn’t flowing at all in this place…but unlike the world of stopped time I was familiar with, I couldn’t even perceive the expanse of this space by manipulating the data particles around me. That is correct. Time has stopped in this place. The expansion of space has also reached its end. The law of entropy has guided this universe into its final stasis. -OTL

A rainbow-colored sphere bulged out very close by, bursting and vanishing.
ごく近くで虹色の球が膨らみ、弾けて消えた。

Hmm, even though I've been watching that rainbow sphere, didn't it just swell up and disappear? If I had to guess, I'd say it's probably one world - a universe."
"A universe? -wiki translation

From the end of an unknown different world somewhere in the gap between dimensions, the wanderers dreamed of returning and [jumped and flew].
次元の狭間の何処とも知れぬ異界の果てから、放浪者達は帰還を夢見て『跳躍飛翔』したのだっ
た。

Expanding Space faster than the speed of light (Most likely at the same speed as our universe’s expansion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_inflation)

Even in the same world's universe, space continued to expand at a speed faster than light.
The correlation between space and time was beyond Mai's understanding. Furthermore, the probability of being able to arrive at the time and place where her beloved brother was alive was infinitesimal. - Wiki Translated

Even within the same universe, space expanded faster than light. The resulting correlation between time and space was beyond Mai’s understanding, and without that, the probability of reaching the exact time and place where her brother was alive and well was infinitely close to zero. -OTL

No Parallel Worlds (No MWI) but Other Worlds with different laws and no cause and effect between them and “Parallel” Worlds (Means in a row rather than at the same time)

And finally, as if connected to a parallel universe in a different dimension, humanity is born. – Wiki Translation

Then, at long last, humanity was born, its fate interlocked with a parallel world in another dimension.-OTL

And finally—
Humanity was born, interlocked in parallel worlds of other dimensions. -Slime Reader.



Velgrynd repeats many encounters and partings. Wherein/Meanwhile, Velgrynd came to understand the fact that the world Veldanava created is not just one. Surely, there existed numerous of worlds. There is only one identical world, and parallel worlds such as 'Parallel World' do not exist. However, Another/other-dimensional worlds, Another world, do exist. Velgrynd was aware of the fact that people from another world existed. However, she had never even imagined that such a variety of worlds could exist to this extent.. Operating under entirely different laws, with no circulation of cause and effect. As material worlds contained within a great spiritual world, a variety of civilizations were intermixed. From familiar worlds where swords and magic were mainstream, to worlds where magic could not be used because they were almost without magical energy. There were also rare worlds where something like scientific civilizations developed, and humanity was mechanized. There were weak worlds that could be blown away if a dragon species unleashed its full power, and devastated worlds where angels and demons rivaling awakened demon lords constantly fought. - Wiki translation

Through them, she came to
understand that Veldanava had created more than one world. Many of them, in fact.
A single world was self-enclosed; there was no such thing as parallel worlds, but there
were so-called “other worlds,” residing in alternate dimensions. That much Velgrynd
already knew thanks to the otherworlders she had met, but she hadn’t imagined the sheer
number of other worlds out there, and their sheer diversity. They could run on completely
different laws, or be unbound by the rules of karma.
Indeed, a wealth of civilizations could intermix in the physical worlds contained within
vast spiritual realms. They could look familiar, all magic and swordfighting, or they could
be bereft of magicules and locked away from all types of spells. Civilizations could be
driven by a thing called science, and some of the less common realms featured human
beings transformed into machines. Some worlds were small enough that a fully unleashed
True Dragon could wipe them from existence; others were wastelands, fought over
constantly by angels and demons with the powers of awakened demon lords. -OTL

Through it all, Velgrynd came to understand that there is no single world that Veldanava has created. He created many worlds. There was one world, and there were no parallel worlds. But there were other worlds.
There were ‘otherworlders,’ so she was aware of that fact, but Velgrynd had never imagined that there were so many different worlds. They were governed by completely different laws, and there was no causality. It was a material world within a great spiritual world of many different civilizations. From the familiar world where swords and magic are the norm, to the world where magic is non-existent and cannot be used. There was also a rare world where scientific civilization had developed and humankind had become mechanized. There were weak worlds that could be blown away by a True Dragon if it unleashed all of its strength, and there were desolate worlds where angels and demons comparable to awakened Demon Lords were in constant conflict.-- Slime Reader






Unique Time Line and Flow

Apperantly his name was George Hayes, and he was the same person I had come in contact with before I jumped into this space-time. If Velgrind's memory serves correctly, his father was a possessor of a fragment of Rudra's "soul." His name was Laurent Hayes, and they were together from their youth to until their death/passing. There are many other points of interest, but these matters need to be thoroughly investigated. If on the same world line, undoubtedly, it can be concluded that it is the same nation and the same individual, but because in alternate-dimensional world, also called Another World, there are similar world/worlds. Because there are clear differences in the world's structure and laws, it is determined not to be a parallel world. However, for some reason, things like names were occasionally similar. Since the possibility of coincidence could not be ruled out this time either, Velgrind resolved to investigate the history. - Wiki Translation

Or the name of the president of the United States of Azalea George Hayes, apparently, is the same one she had contact with before the space-time leap.
If Velgrynd’s memory was correct, his father was the owner of as piece of Rudra’s soul. His name was Laurent Hayes, and she was with him from his youth until he died a mortal death. There are many other things she was curious about, but she had to look into those matters. If they were in the same world, she could be sure that they were the same nation and the same person, but there are also similar worlds in other dimensions.
Since there are clear differences in the origins and laws of the world, it is concluded that it is not a parallel world, but for some reason the names are similar. Again, the possibility of this being a coincidence was undeniable, so Velgrynd decided to look into the history.- Slime Reader

Then there was the United States of Azeria and its current president. His name was George Hayes, which perfectly matched that of someone she’d met before jumping into this timeline. If Velgrynd’s memory served her, George’s father, Laurent Hayes, had been a possessor of a soul fragment from Ludora; she had accompanied him from young adulthood to his peaceful final days.That, among several things, had piqued her interest enough that she saw fit to research them.If all these familiar-sounding pieces of trivia belonged to the same timeline, it’d be easy to conclude that these nations and people were indeed the same as those Velgrynd knew. But it was also common to see differing worlds that bore startling resemblances to each other. Their origins and rules of nature were clearly divergent enough that one couldn’t call them parallel worlds, but for some reason, they’d share all these suspiciously similar names. This time, too, it might just be another funny coincidence, so Velgrynd thought it wise to explore this world’s history a little.-- OTL

Every dimension, after all, ran on its own temporal axis. If two worlds ran on synchronized axes, there’d be no time difference if you jumped between them—but in reality, this wasn’t something to expect.- OTL

Directly called Time Lines and Space-Times

"What happened on that time axis is not exactly known. By the time Ciel-san was thrown, everything had already ended. Even how Ivarage became or moved is unclear, but what is certain is that the world did not perish. I am not sure if that was according to Feldway's wish, but I don't care about it.
"── After that, as if drifting through a universe where not even the stars twinkled, I wandered, witnessing the end of this world."" - Wiki Translation

Ciel didn’t know exactly what had happened in that timeline, however. By the time it had been thrown over here, everything had already ended. We didn’t know what happened to Ivalage or how things had worked out at all, but what’s certain is that the world did not end. I’m not entirely sure if that’s what Feldway wanted, but it didn’t really matter anyway. After that, I wandered around in this space bereft of the twinkling of any star, and there I saw the end of the world.- OTL


"Precisely. We've been launched somewhere in space-time by Feldway's Chrono Saltation. Although that planet's lifespan had long since been burnt up, it still hasn't come to the end of the world. My guess is that Feldway's power is limited to destroying the Central World's Universe."- Wiki Translation

That is correct. Via Feldway’s Chrono-Saltation, we have been sent to the far reaches of time and space. Here, the stars had long since exhausted their natural lifespan, but the world itself had not yet collapsed. It is presumed that Feldway’s power was limited strictly to destroying the universe of the key world. - OTL


Possible Big Bang or Destructive Event like a Quasar just right after (either way proves that the cardinal world universe is at least billions of years old and space expanding would overtime make it universe sized space-time continuum)

However, that hidden power - It could unleash a great destructive force, the greatest seen since the birth of the universe. -Wiki Translation

But the power inside was greater than anything seen since the beginning of the universe, creating a truly calamitous amount of destructive force. - OTL

Although it would be ideal if the place I was launched to was a different-dimensional-world inhabited by humans, it wouldn't be strange if it was at the death of an empty universe or right in the middle of a great destruction before life was even born. - Wiki Translation (no OTL because they removed this quote)

To begin with, even 3 people being here bothers me. To encounter a space-time storm - something as rare as the birth of a universe - get through it safely, and so luckily arrive at a familiar place with people we know, there's no way it's a coincidence. - Wiki Translation

Separated by Space-Time/Dimensional Walls

The coordinates on this ‘World Map’ were only for this world.
In other words, it was impossible to cross the dimensional barrier. - Slime Reader

Crossing dimensional barriers requires an enormous amount of energy, along with long strings of complex, arcane calculations and a vast amount of spatial and temporal position data. Given her current situation, Mai’s despair seemed understandable…but on the other hand, it was exactly why her safety was guaranteed. - OTL

Mai’s power—the evolved Tera Mater—gave her the skill Dimensional Leap. However, as she just said, it required a lot of data to work. It was possible to leap toward the wavelengths released by a living target, but if they existed in another dimension, it was impossible to reach them. Even if she knew the timeline, position data, and other information she needed for her target location, if there was a dimensional barrier separating her from it, she lacked the power to cross it at all. This was why Mai gave up on returning to her original world. - OTL


Another Worlds/Dimensions/Space-times = Universe

"Hmm, even though I've been watching that rainbow sphere, didn't it just swell up and disappear? If I had to guess, I'd say it's probably one world - a universe."
"A universe?"

As said by vietthai, Another-Dimensional Worlds basically means Another Dimension. It was also said by apotheosis but with the new situation means I can’t use it as viable.

Post in thread 'Tensei Shitara Slime Datta Ken (Light Novel) Cosmology Page Remake' https://vsbattles.com/threads/tense...vel-cosmology-page-remake.177683/post-7012865



They thought that if they had gained a relying spirit and incarnated themselves, they could completely conquer this space-time within a few thousand to tens of thousands of years. At the same time, they had developed the Underworld Gate, which leads to other dimensions, and had their sights set on a further invasion. But then, an unforeseen event occurred. There was a definite element of uncertainty, judged Amari Masahiko.

If on the same world line, undoubtedly, it can be concluded that it is the same nation and the same individual, but because in alternate-dimensional world, also called Another World, there are similar world/worlds.

Although it would be ideal if the place I was launched to was a different-dimensional-world inhabited by humans, it wouldn't be strange if it was at the death of an empty universe or right in the middle of a great destruction before life was even born.

Apperantly his name was George Hayes, and he was the same person I had come in contact with before I jumped into this space-time.

Obera’s role was to deal with the cryptids in the other world. Strictly speaking, monitoring the movements of Ivarage, the World-destroying Dragon, was her primary mission. Cornu’s primary mission was to invade other dimensions, and Zalario’s was to deal with the insectars. With the pact between Phantom King Feldway and Insect Lord Zelanus, Zalario was now able to move freely. However, it was still difficult to communicate with Ivarage, and Obera’s body remained bound.

The coordinates on this ‘World Map’ were only for this world.
In other words, it was impossible to cross the dimensional barrier.

Michael and Feldway were one and the same, sharing the same power. No matter how far apart they were, even if they existed in different dimensions, their shared will would never be severed. The only case where this would be possible was if one of them was in a critical situation where the other was unable to respond…

“Dimensional Slash.”
The shockwaves emitted from Tishorn’s arms became slicing extensions that slashed and tore at everything in all directions. The effect of the shockwave extended to the dimensional realm, and although the dimensional slash was instantly restored by the world’s healing power, it was impossible for the materials on the surface of the slash to withstand it.
Naturally, even Obera was no exception. Obera could see through it at a glance and did not make the mistake of suffering such an attack, however, she still recognized that Tishorn was a threat. Partly because of that, Obera was acting in a way that would minimize the damage, but at this stage, she was not sure if it would be a good thing or a bad thing.- Slime Reader




End of the Universes/Subspace (encompassing space)

Although it would be ideal if the place I was launched to was a different-dimensional-world inhabited by humans, it wouldn't be strange if it was at the death of an empty universe or right in the middle of a great destruction before life was even born.- Wiki Translation

At that time, she had left Rimuru and flew to a different world that transcended time. It was in an unknown crevice of another world where she safely reunited with her ‘Parallel Existence,’ which had managed to escape Feldway.
That place had no atmosphere or even earth, Velgrynd was forced to drift around without any sense of time. Had Velgrynd not been a True Dragon, she might have died in that place. But she had ‘Spatial Domination’ and an infinite lifespan.
(sent a translation to show that ‘’an unknown crevice of an another world’’ means gap in between worlds or something similar)

Velgrynd took her first leap into the strange space between unknown worlds. There, she found herself unbounded by time and confronted her inner self. By doing so, she made the Ultimate Skill ‘Divine Flame King Cthugha’ completely her own. The Ultimate Skill ‘Divine Flame King Cthugha’ had the power to track Rudra’s soul. Strictly speaking, the effect was to discover an entity once specified. Velgrynd can now find pieces of her beloved Rudra’s soul, no matter how remote or far away they are, even beyond time and space.

—it was a literal gap in time and space. This labyrinth was in a place adjacent to another world—a subspace, in other words—and this also brought it in contact with many other worlds in many other dimensions.-OTL

Mai gave up, realizing that she couldn't deceive him. She changed her mind and looked around to try to assess the situation. What she was able to understand was that Mai and the others were still drifting in the gap between dimensions.
理解出来たのは、マイ達は次元の狭間に漂っているままだということ。
ユウキが謎の『結界』を張っているお陰で、異界でも『魔力感知』が発動していたのだ。

From the end of an unknown different world somewhere in the gap between dimensions, the wanderers dreamed of returning and [jumped and flew].
次元の狭間の何処とも知れぬ異界の果てから、放浪者達は帰還を夢見て『跳躍飛翔』したのだった。




Lower bounds size of the Cardinal World (Universe)

Space is filled with so many stars in fact that it is called the “sea of stars” which Rimuru, Veldora and Pippin dream of in the future conquering with their Infinite Lifespans. And in the Manga version of the vacation side story when Rimuru uses his improvised Meggido to use sun beams it shows the planet but also space filled with stars. This is just to clarify that the cardinal world universe is large enough to accompany many, many stars.



Here is Rimuru looking at a starry sky with presumed nebula.


The anime even in the movie and spin-offs having a starry night sky



(needs to be confirmed by a translator)
Don't give me that 'but' crap! Seriously, if you're a spiritual lifeform with infinite lifespan, shouldn't you have more romantic, grand ambitions—like exploring the sea of stars!?"
"T-The sea of stars!?"
"That's right!"
I nodded emphatically and began to lay out a concrete example.
A space battleship sailing through the starry sea, its skull-emblazoned flag fluttering.
Armor tough enough to deflect any bombardment, and a main cannon powerful enough to shatter a star in a single shot.
The romance of traveling through the sea of stars aboard such a space battleship!
But now, I'm different. In my previous life, such a thing was impossible due to my limited lifespan—but now that I've been reborn, I won’t let it end as just a dream.
「でも、じゃねーんだよ! 大体だな、無限の寿命を持つ精神生命体なんだったら、星の海を探検しようとか、もっと浪漫溢れる野望を持つべきだろうが!!」「ほ、星の海ィ!?」「そうとも!」俺は大きく頷き、その具体例を語って聞かせる。髑髏の旗をはためかせて、星海を征く宇宙戦艦。どんな砲撃も跳ね返す強靭な外装に、一撃で星すら砕く主砲の威力。そんな宇宙戦艦で、星の海を旅する浪漫!
しかし、今の俺は違う。前世では寿命的に不可能だったけど、生まれ変わった今なら夢で終わらせる事はないのだ。

And Milim name dropping the galaxy when she attacks the chaos dragon
“Yeah! You are right, then here I go, my friend. Watch carefully now, behold the brightness of all the stars in the galaxy! Drago Bustaaa!”
A blinding light was shot out. It felt as if my brain would be burnt to ash even if I closed my eyes.
Milim unleashed a gigantic swirl of power and it went straight at the Chaos Dragon.
Its unknown power formed a barrier that impacted Milim’s lightning.
The two powers began to clash.
I analyzed the wave of energy and found the source of the Chaos Dragon’s power. I was doing this simultaneously while Raphael-san’s analysis helped Milim control her power. -Slime Reader


Possible Size for the Other World


So the more than ''tens of billions of years'' can be applied at least to the age of the ''Other World'', assuming the lowest estimate being 20 billion years and then using the expansion rate of our universe that being 73 kilometers per second per megaparsec (km/s/Mpc) that would give a diameter of 135 billion light-years at lowest estimate and the highest possible one being 670 billion light-years but in my opinion the first one seems more realistic.

however , with the confirmation that it in fact says Hundreds of Billions of Years means that it needs to be scaled appropriately with

If hundreds of billions of years = 1 second, then objects moving at normal speed would appear to move at about 3.15 × 10^19 meters per second in the scaled time frame — many orders of magnitude faster than the speed of light (~3 × 10^8 m/s).

If 100 billion years correspond to 1 year in scaled time, then normal speeds become about 10^11 times faster in that scale.



Zalario fighting the insectars for more that hundreds of billions of years while in the ''Other World'' meaning that it should show that the size of the ‘’Other World’’ should be beyond that of the observable universe considering the ''space expands faster than light'' statement could imply that it has the same expansion rate as our universe (or the original world where Yuuki, Hinata and Rimuru come from).

異界と基軸世界では流れる時間が違う為、

Because in the Otherworld and Cardinal World, the flowing time is different,

ザラリオの体感時間では数百億年以上もの永きに渡って、

In Zarario’s experienced time, over a long period of more than hundreds of billions of years,

戦い続けているようなものなのだ。

It is like he has been continuing to fight.

それなのに剣の技量が頭打ちなのは、

And yet, the reason his sword skill has hit a ceiling is

蟲魔族<[インセクター]という敵の特性に特化してしまったせいである。

Because he ended up specializing in the traits of the enemy called the Insector, the insect demon tribe.-confirmed to be correct


It couldn’t be helped. An Ultimate Skill was something that was normally extremely difficult to acquire. It was so difficult that even Zalario, who had been alive for more than tens [hundreds] of billions of years, had just finally acquired it by himself. He knew of its existence, but he thought he did not need it. Perhaps that was why he couldn’t acquire it, but still.


For the counter argument of it being Zalario’s experience being perception-based.
Zalario who only perceives that amount of time inside the ‘’Other World’’ and when he comes out to the Cardinal World he perceives time normally.
He also doesn’t have any perception based abilities only experience so It wouldn’t be due to thought acceleration and there is no proof that the time flow was affecting his perception or combat speed (I.E thinking time was slow or faster/moving faster or slower) which would not make sense if their main objective is to guard ivarage and fight of insectars but functioned from his perspective normally due to the ‘’Other Worlds’’ time flow meaning that the time flow from within that world would be normal speed and space would still expand.


Feldway was not the only one of the “Seven Primordial Angels” who had come to this other world from the heavens, where Veldanava lived. Three of them remained with Veldanava, and three others, Zalario, Obera, and Cornu, followed Feldway and helped him manage the other world. These four pillars, including Feldway, had mutated and evolved into a race called the Yoten.

Accompanying Feldway were two of the ‘Three Phantom Commanders’ and five generals brought by Zalario. There were eight of them in all. Two of the top commanders had been recruited for this operation, which was a tremendous in itself. Only Obera of the Three Phantom Commanders had been left to guard the Palace of Monsters in the depths of the Otherworld. When Dino heard of this plan, he could not hide his surprise at their drastic actions.

Interstellar World means that the civilisation inside that world is at the interstellar level

The focus on civilisation when talking about worlds is just Velgrynd trying to categorise them based on her experience within those worlds.

Velgrynd had traveled through all those worlds. But all of it was not of her own intention, but by what she was guided to. There were different levels of civilization, and Velgrynd had no way of guessing which dimension or timeline she was in.

And interstellar world doesn't mean that it is actually in an interstellar space but actually the level of civilisation as right before she talks about that "Rudra's" rank as a fleet commander.

The entire reason why she mentions the backgrounds of the rudras is because of how they are different in terms of progress in their civilisations and their unique properties. The quote above makes it seem like she sometimes gets confused because of their progress differing so wildly. That is why she can't guess what dimension or timeline she is in because progress can range from interplanetary empire to barbarian tribe. It is pretty clear that she is talking about civilisations within these worlds.
So Velgrynd remembered all worlds, all of Rudra. The fleet commander of the interstellar world. The minister of a small country in the world of swords and magic. The rare scammer in the world without magic. The poor scientist in the civilized world. Velgrynd is often called upon at moments of crisis when one who possesses a fragment of Rudra’s ‘soul’ is in danger. It is only when he is on the verge of death that his soul shines forth.
There is an entire trope for Navy In Space which fleet commander would fall under.

The Original Universe where Rimuru is from is a real life analogue

First, the world that Rimuru comes from is that of our own with him mentioning pop culture because it existed there. (Lord of the Rings, Doraemon, Dragon Quest, Dragon Ball Etc) as well as the Bombing of Tokyo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo) and the subsequent rebuilding (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postwar_Japan) are key points that are referenced because of shizue coming from that era. (multiple pages)



Dinosaurs are also said to have existed or Veldora wouldn’t know the term dinosaur and the fact that he said that to Rimuru so that he can understand means he knows what dinosaurs are and have existed.




The Wiki’s standards on both Universes and Space-Times.
Achieved = Green
Can be Implied but not confirmed = Yellow


  • If they are outright called universes or are stated to be universe sized by a reliable narrator.
  • If the size of the realms described has having infinite sizes or other synonyms, that should strongly indicate them being universes. (Will be explained in the summary)
  • If they are outright stated to be completely separated by the barriers of time and space and either stated or shown to be reasonable in size, such as having countless galaxies, then they should indeed be universes. (has been shown to have an innumerable amount of stars)
  • If they're flat out stated to be entire timelines, then they are indeed alternate universes.
  • Being labeled as "Entire Alternate Realities" generally indicates them being called universes, but the context and semantics should preferably be specified.
  • If they're stated to mirror "The Universe" or "Our Universe" or "The Real World", they would refer to being universes.(The Original World where Rimuru comes from has real world events as part of it’s universe as well as pop culture from a ‘’modern day’’ 2014 Japan as well as dinosaurs being mentioned from veldora who has read Rimuru’s memories and was explaining to him the differences between true dragons and normal lizard-like dragons).
  • If there is shown to be a collection of multiple alternate worlds/dimensions that are either stated to be parallel and/or there are visual depictions resembling each of those worlds/dimensions to be metaphorically similar to each other (Such as bubbles or other structures that appear similar in size), and most importantly, at least one of those individual worlds/dimensions has shown enough evidence to consider them a Universe level+ sized spacetime continuum, then the conclusion is to consider all of those individual worlds/dimensions universes and that the entire collection is a multiverse. (Worlds look like rainbow orbs that expand then burst and disappear and is said to vary with at least one weak/small world but we don’t get a statement to show if they are common or rare but the fact they are given such a description means that they are not common.)


  • A larger space encompasses all the universes or space-times
  • This space is of a higher dimensional nature.



Summary: Worlds as Other-Dimensional Worlds/Dimensions/Space-Times are the Universes and there are ‘’many’’ of these structures. They have the properties that fit into the Wiki’s standards of being considered a universe and are directly tied to being universes. There is no clear mention of it being infinite or being exactly 93 billion light years but nothing in the text suggests that it is smaller than that size either but most of them are expanding faster than light, are filled with stars, are directly called space-times, separated by an encompassing ‘‘gap between dimensions’’ and have dimensional barriers that prevents travelling to these other worlds with the way to pass through them being ‘’transcending time and space’’ of a single world to do so.


When Amari Mashiko received the report from Pulcinella, he understood that the situation was not looking good. They were invincible. Not only as phantoms, but from the knowledge and power they had gained when they were human, they should have been one step closer to taking over this world. After conquering mankind, they will reveal Cornu to the world. After doing so, they plan to modify the planet and use it as a stepping-stone for further invasions.

The universe is vast, but not as vast as the other worlds. They thought that if they had gained a relying spirit and incarnated themselves, they could completely conquer this space-time within a few thousand to tens of thousands of years. At the same time, they had developed the Underworld Gate, which leads to other dimensions, and had their sights set on a further invasion. But then, an unforeseen event occurred. There was a definite element of uncertainty, judged Amari Masahiko.
with the conquering of the space-time feat in thousands to ten thousand years be related to the civilisation that sprung up from that world and conquering the planet would be satisfactory as bases for further invasions as FTL physically impossible but conquering this civilisation then modifying the entire planet as a base to plan further invasions to other dimensional worlds and their civilisations as places for the Phantoms/Demons to possess it's inhabitants. as shown with this quote:

But she didn’t know what that meant until it was too late. Delia has been stripped of her knowledge, her position, and even her name, and is now completely reborn as a demon. Delia’s rank was the same as Li Jinlong and David, the ‘general’ rank. She went to war at the same time as the Arcia invasion of the Great Roziam and was involved in the mission to destroy it. The first objective of the demon invasion was to secure the territory. And the second objective was to enslave mankind. This was to ensure their dependents would possess the families.


There is also a mention of it being an ‘’infinitesimally’’ small chance of Mai meeting her brother alive in the same place or time. And her main goal is to travel worlds to get to the world where Rimuru is from, meaning that going to a specific timeframe and specific place in a universe is a infinitesimally small probability, this can also be proven by the fact that the quote seems like a broad statement which would heavily imply a universe has a significant enough size to be a considered a universe.

Even in the same world's universe, space continued to expand at a speed faster than light.
The correlation between space and time was beyond Mai's understanding. Furthermore, the probability of being able to arrive at the time and place where her beloved brother was alive was infinitesimal.


Also, note that there seems to be a finite amount of universes with their being ‘’many worlds’’ in the quotes with Velgrynd. So, she is not talking about finding him in ‘’many worlds’’ being infinitesimal but rather her original universe's space-time. And it isn't a matter of time because Mai has been described as having an infinite/near infinite lifespan and still saw it as not being possible.

Mai had an essentially infinite lifespan now, but even then, she had to write it off as undoable.- OTL

Mai has a lifespan equivalent to infinity, but even so, there is no choice but to conclude that it is impossible. (needs checking I don't trust OTL)
マイには無限に等しい寿命があるが、それでも無理だと断ずる他ない。

My stance is neutral on the Cycles but on the topic of their being multiple worlds/universes due to the amount of content relating to universes and their properties, it is clear Fuse’s (the author) intent is to have multiple universes especially if they don't give a concrete size if it as it could be seen as self-evident.

Edit: Forgot to preface this but infinity is a concept that is well actualised within the verse

Rimuru's Imaginary Space
Not a problem how exactly? That sounded like a lot of problems to me. I guess my Complex Space was infinitely vast. It was filled to the point where I could rebuild the world thousands of times if I wanted to—but it still wasn’t full. I was wondering what that had to do with any of this, but then Ciel shocked me again.-- OTL

My "Imaginary Space" seems to go on forever, and still hasn't been filled.-- Wiki Translation

Pippin's secret of the infinite corridor/Ramiris' labyrinth prison
Ahhh, how foolish they are… to have angered Rimuru, of all people…"
Veldora let out a dramatic sigh, lamenting the fact that these fools had caused trouble—trouble that might rob him of his chance to shine.
He was trapped within the Endless Corridor—a space with no top or bottom.
All around him stretched rows of bookshelves, infinitely mirrored like a pair of facing mirrors.
Yet even in such a bizarre place, Veldora remained remarkably calm.
Determined to find a way out, he was using his Ultimate Skill, King of Investigation: Faust, to perform Analysis and Appraisal on his surroundings.
「あーあ、愚かなヤツ等よ。リムルを怒らせるとはな……」
困った事をしてくれたな。これでは我の出番がなくなるではないか――と、〝無限回廊エンドレスループ〟の中に囚われていたヴェルドラが嘆いた。
上も下もない空間。
合わせ鏡のように、ずっと書棚が並んでいるだけ。
ヴェルドラはそんな場所に居るのに、実に平然と構えていた。そして、どうにかしてここから脱出しようと、究極能力アルティメットスキル『究明之王ファウスト』で『解析鑑定』を行っていたのである。

If Deeno and his friends refused the proposal, she couldn’t do much about that. She didn’t want to kill her friend, so instead she planned to throw him into the Labyrinth Prison, a bit of the labyrinth that she remodelled for the purpose. She had based it on the “secret of the infinite corridor,” something Rimuru had obtained from one place or another, and it worked by constantly changing its spatial coordinates, preventing all escape. The labyrinth had become a bit of a rough place as of late; more and more idiots were going in and wrecking the joint, so Ramiris wanted a wayor two to punish them. It looked to her like she’d get to test them out realsoon. Having to recalculate coordinates all the time to prevent escape was alittle irritating, but it still beat killing Deeno and his friends.--OTL


Anti-Magic Mask
However…

The attack was blocked, leaving not a single scratch on Shizu’s mask. Not only that, but the arm that delivered the blow was blown away. For the first time, the demon known as Kuro was shaken.

“Impossible! To deflect my attack, no, that ‘mask’… Could it be…that its temporal thickness…is infinite?!”

For the first time in thousands of years, Kuro was truly astonished, shaken to his core. In the face of this unbelievable situation, Kuro’s interest in Shizu deepened.

My attacks are ineffective. That ‘mask’ must be bound by some kind of causality. And that temporal thickness… Considering it has existed longer than I have, that ‘mask’ seems to transcend time. Who possesses such an artifact? Kufufufufu, this is very intriguing indeed!
 
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Considering new points were brought forward in the oppositions conclusion, I'm going to add this into my conclusion now. It also seems a lot of new pieces of "evidence" was added to oppositions "conclusion"

And finally, as if connected to a parallel universe in a different dimension, humanity is born. – Wiki Translation
This ^ was never shown in the original thread, unless I somehow missed it. But where was this translated? This would imply universe < dimension, but with both the OTL and even slime reader not handling this with the same translation, let's source who translated it.
Humanity was born, interlocked in parallel worlds of other dimensions. [Slime Reader]
Then, at long last, humanity was born, its fate interlocked with a parallel world in another dimension. [OTL]

As said by vietthai, Another-Dimensional Worlds basically means Another Dimension.
If we're also saying "別次元世界" would be referencing the other dimension, not the worlds as you claim, then if that's not being used, it wouldn't be referencing the dimensions themselves, instead something else, and that only is stated twice in the entire volume 17.
同一世界線上ならば間違いなく、同一国家、同一人物だと断定出来るのだが、別次元世界(アナザーワールド)には似通った世界があるからだ。
If it is on the same world line, there is no doubt that it is the same nation and the same person; however, because in different dimensional worlds (another world) there exist similar worlds.
If they were in the same world, she could be sure that they were the same nation and the same person, but there are also similar worlds in other dimensions. - Slime Reader
Which proves the "dimensional worlds" are not referencing the world Velgrynd is on, or talking about, as that was referencing the Arcia Empire World at the time.

There is also a mention of it being an ‘’infinitesimally’’ small chance of Mai meeting her brother alive in the same place or time. And her main goal is to travel worlds to get to the world where Rimuru is from, meaning that going to a specific timeframe and specific place in a universe is a infinitesimally small probability, this can also be proven by the fact that the quote seems like a broad statement which would heavily imply a universe has a significant enough size to be a considered a universe
This was done in subspace, so you'd be implying subspace is THE universe;
Mai Furuki was drifting in the unknown space beyond which she had jumped with all her might.
Probably, it was the space between dimensions called subspace.
Mai Furuki was floating in the unfamiliar space she had jumped into with all her might. This was probably a dimensional rift, the kind they called subspace. [OTL]
This also just denotes a possibility considering how difficult it'd be to cross the dimensional barriers;
The probability of Mai being able to return to her original world is infinitesimally small.
In theory, it is not impossible. However, it was impossible for Mai.
The reason is that crossing the dimensional barrier requires an enormous amount of Energy.
Moreover, it requires complex and bizarre operations and a huge amount of 'positional information on time and space'.
This is precisely the reason why we can understand Mai's despair in the current situation...but on the contrary, this is the reason why Mai's safety was ensured.
The resulting correlation between time and space was beyond Mai’s understanding, and without that, the probability of reaching the exact time and place where her brother was alive and well was infinitely close to zero.
If Mai had more power, maybe she could leap through time and space at will. If she was a True Dragon, for example, she could just do that for as long as it took. But it wasn’t possible for her. That’s just the way it was. Since she had made that leap just now with all her might, she was unable to read any information about her current location. [OTL]

Now, Opposition states that Interstellar world would not indicate a planet, or planet like construct that exist between stars. Interstellar by definition is in between stars, to state that this merely refers to Civilization would assert their civilization exist no where but in this interstellar place, which regarding the fact they have had achieved the ability to venture beyond a planet, where life starts, and between stars, there's no evidence to suggest they left said planet where they came from entirely or has no home planet to call home. So to assert this simply means civilization presupposes their society lives no where else but this place between stars, so other world in this case can't mean anything greater since this was considered one of the "other worlds".

Regarding the Civilization points, this disregard the "where" velgrynd was jumping to. She wasn't jumping into civilizations but "other worlds" other worlds that note having landmasses, countries and being between stars. The point of being civilization was referring to the era these worlds were in.
そうして最初に辿り着いたのは、まだ文明が芽吹いたばかりの、どこかの星の大陸だった。
  • And so, the first place she arrived at was a continent on some planet, where civilization had only just begun to sprout. [GPT]
  • The first place she came to was a large landmass on one planet or another, a location where civilization was only beginning to form. [OTL]
  • First, she found herself on a starry continent where civilization was still in its infancy. [Slime Reader]
You can check the translation if you must. But this clearly indicates the first jump was to a planet, with a continent on it, separating that from the Civilization.
Velgrynd had a series of encounters and goodbyes. Through it all, Velgrynd came to understand that there is no single world that Veldanava has created. He created many worlds. There was one world, and there were no parallel worlds. But there were other worlds.

There were ‘otherworlders,’ so she was aware of that fact, but Velgrynd had never imagined that there were so many different worlds. They were governed by completely different laws, and there was no causality. It was a material world within a great spiritual world of many different civilizations.
This clearly indicates that world is a separate thing from the civilizations that would be referred to. Unless we are going to assume "laws" here means legality and not on a more fundamental stance. Laws, would clearly mean something beyond a civilization considering it refers to some places without magic, but some with, which isn't something a mere civilization could control, unless they have the ability to rewrite reality.
If they were in the same world, she could be sure that they were the same nation and the same person, but there are also similar worlds in other dimensions.

Since there are clear differences in the origins and laws of the world, it is concluded that it is not a parallel world, but for some reason the names are similar.
^It later gets confirmed that it's referring to something more grand than a nation or civilization as it references parallel worlds to talk about constructs larger than a simple "group of people"
From the familiar world where swords and magic are the norm, to the world where magic is non-existent and cannot be used. There was also a rare world where scientific civilization had developed and humankind had become mechanized. There were weak worlds that could be blown away by a True Dragon if it unleashed all of its strength, and there were desolate worlds where angels and demons comparable to awakened Demon Lords were in constant conflict.

Velgrynd had traveled through all those worlds. But all of it was not of her own intention, but by what she was guided to.
This continues to show that she is traveling to these worlds, not civilizations because the point of bringing up civilizations is to show that Velgrynd couldn't ascertain at what timeline/era she was in or if the dimension she was in was governed by different laws.
There were different levels of civilization, and Velgrynd had no way of guessing which dimension or timeline she was in.
So when it finally talks more about these other worlds;
So Velgrynd remembered all worlds, all of Rudra. The fleet commander of the interstellar world. The minister of a small country in the world of swords and magic. The rare scammer in the world without magic. The poor scientist in the civilized world. Velgrynd is often called upon at moments of crisis when one who possesses a fragment of Rudra’s ‘soul’ is in danger. It is only when he is on the verge of death that his soul shines forth.
There's no reason to refer to civilizations when the point of bringing it up was to show Velgrynd's confusion on which dimension she was and what point in time.

So in this context, world should not mean anything other than a planet or a place where civilization is, not civilization itself. If that is to be taken as such, then "other worlds" would just be referring to the civilizations, not a greater construct.

I didn't want to utilize this in this CRT, but to make this consistent, Cardinal world is a planet;
Considering the Cardinal world itself is a planet, with plenty of proof, this should make it consistent that when "world" is being referenced majority of the time, unless the context indicates something else.

So statements like this;
She jumped from the Cardinal World to this world’s past.
...
Humans in this world do not have the aid of a universal substance called magic.
...
Not only as phantoms, but from the knowledge and power they had gained when they were human, they should have been one step closer to taking over this world. After conquering mankind, they will reveal Cornu to the world. After doing so, they plan to modify the planet and use it as a stepping-stone for further invasions.
...
So did Zang, who had given up on his ambition to unify the world through the Holy Arcia Empire.
...
As a result, she had reached a level of strength that was foreign to this world. More than 100,000 in existence value. In the Cardinal World, where Velgrynd was born, she was an overwhelmingly powerful human, even to the point of being classified as an Immortal. In this world, she was unmatched...
Should all be referencing the planet itself, I would've grabbed more, but I didn't want to put down an entire novel like read for everyone.

I can bring more instances, but this should suffice for now. There's a lack of evidence to prove "other worlds" are referring to the civilizations themselves or a greater construct than a planet. Even if we don't want to classify "other worlds" as civilizations but velgrynd was venturing to them, then that disregards the "where" part of her adventure, since civilization isn't a "where" necessarily, but a "when" in this instance.

This will be my final statement considering the new arguments made.
 
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2-Sem-T-tulo-20250720103533.png
 
Thank you for helping out. That seems to make sense. 🙏
 
It seems to me like 2-C makes more sense than 2-A.

The discussion of the Many-Universe Theory in the verse seems to be hypothetical, and in fact, it seems that they outright come to the conclusion that it's wrong and instead there's some kind of Time Manipulation going on.
As per the cosmology page.and her own admission of it not being entirely right.

Hinata says that such a thing as the existence of multiple parallel worlds is unacceptable, but that's merely an appeal to emotion, where she's refusing to believe the existence of parallel universes purely because she thinks its too unfair since "her efforts would be in vain". She also says that her guess was correct, and that there's only one single world however, that is being proven wrong when Velgrynd herself travels to those parallel universes later on. Velgrynd proves during her own journey across parallel worlds and other-dimensional worlds that parallel worlds do not overlap, so contradictions like "identity overlap" are indeed unable to exist

Both are different matters. Two Chloe(s) can exist each in a separate timeline, and that's fine. That's why Velgrynd said she cannot go to a timeline in Volume 17, because another version of her (not a parallel existence) was already there. But then how were there two Velgrynd(s) in the first place? One inside and one outside the timeline. Obviously because there are multiple timelines.

The point was that the part of the theory that was correct is no identity contradiction being able to exist, as proven by Velgrynd as well, but that parallel worlds/timelines DO exist.

So half of hinatas theory is correct.

The theory of the world being remade is false,As it is stated that she is going to other timelines

Even confirmed by Raphael that it is from a different timeline


So we can conclude that

1.) since Chloe goes to other timelines and has done that infinite amount of times. =2-A

2.) velgrynd has went through worlds and confirms the existence of timelines unrelated to the timetraveling.meaning that Chloe’s timetravel has no impact on mwi. (Is an ultimate skill user so has more knowledge on the world) and she is just traveling to pre-existing timelines

3.) in vol 22 we see new universes being birthed and ending. Yet again unrelated to timetravel



The paradox of the mask is precisely that it's older than Time itself (the timeline)(it is older than Diablo who has existed before the world was created) and its age is Infinity. But they can't explain the paradox because they can't come up with one particular reasoning in this case, that the mask spent finite time in each timeline, and since the total amount of timelines was infinite, the age became infinite eventually.



(I will make a better version later. I was going to let astral do it but if he can’t)
 
As per the cosmology page.and her own admission of it not being entirely right.
There being an unreliable narrator definitely complicates things, especially for non-supporters.

There's also a lot of rather complicated translation going on, it seems. Was all of that run by our Translation Helpers?
 
There being an unreliable narrator definitely complicates things, especially for non-supporters.

There's also a lot of rather complicated translation going on, it seems. Was all of that run by our Translation Helpers?
I am pretty sure most of it has been. Rest are like OTL.

If there is anything you want translated then I can go ask the a translation helper.
 
I am pretty sure most of it has been. Rest are like OTL.

If there is anything you want translated then I can go ask the a translation helper.
Of particular note, I'd want to confirm that "parallel" was actually used when describing the timelines.

Because I think just "another/different timeline" is more vague and could be interpreted as a theoretical rather than a literal.
 
Of particular note, I'd want to confirm that "parallel" was actually used when describing the timelines.

Because I think just "another/different timeline" is more vague and could be interpreted as a theoretical rather than a literal.
Which part exactly? The parallel universes part?

I barley checked but there are a few things


Post in thread 'Official Translation Requests Thread (New forum)'



Post in thread 'Official Translation Requests Thread (New forum)'



Post in thread 'Official Translation Requests Thread (New forum)'
 
I think this is particularly relevant. Which one does the verse use?

If it's the former, then it's far more convincing I think.
It uses both.

For parallel worlds it uses the first one.(what was previously accepted as 5D and contains infinite timelines

For parallel universes(timelines) it uses the second.(4D)


Post in thread 'Tensei Shitara Slime Datta Ken (Light Novel) Cosmology Page Remake'
https://vsbattles.com/threads/tense...vel-cosmology-page-remake.177683/post-7013149



Post in thread 'Tensei Shitara Slime Datta Ken (Light Novel) Cosmology Page Remake'
https://vsbattles.com/threads/tense...vel-cosmology-page-remake.177683/post-7013280
 
I had received permission from @Qawsedf234

Timelines/Cycles

First of all, from my point of view, parallel universes were never constantly formed.
...there was no such thing as parallel worlds, but there were so-called "other worlds," residing in alternate dimensions. ~Volume 17, Chapter 2
This statement alone refutes this idea.

But I don't think this definitively refutes the idea that the world could branch. Velgrynd didn't travel to a timeline where she already existed, as in Chloe's case. Instead, she traveled to another world in the multiverse.

Reason of why parallel universes are thought not to exist is that the world does not allow things like contradictions to unravel itself.
It seemed, once everything was said and done, that the 'one single world' theory was correct—and the world thus would never allow contradictions.
…Well, not quite. It’s not that contradictions are verboten—it’s that anything that causes the world to unravel is. ~Volume 11, Chapter 5
This contradiction is the situation of more than multiple of the same soul exist in the same space and time.
Report. It is impossible for multiples of the same soul to exist at the same point in space and time. It is believed that the resulting rejection sent one of the souls into the past. ~Volume 11, Chapter 5
So, if parallel universes do not exist, how is the existence of different timelines explained? With the idea of world being remade.
Instead, the idea of the world being remade was more tangible. ~Volume 11, Chapter 5
However, there are some problems at this point. This remade can only be done by law of the world/the world itself and this can only happen by rewriting the timeline through the laws of world that govern causality.
But Yuuki just didn't have the right characteristics for it. Reality sucks sometimes.

"Still, I can perform research into it. And what I found was that in this world, magic is the power to interfere with the laws of nature. There's a mysterious set of laws to this world-people call them the World Language-and when you earn a new power, or the value of your life rises in some way, like when you evolve, then that's how nature tells you about it. Magic runs under the same rules as this World Language; when you cast the spell, it turns that nonphysical phenomenon into real life. And if you look at it the other way..."

Yuuki paused. I tried to guess where this was going. Look at it the other way...

"Everything has a cause and an effect, and if you figure out the laws behind all that, you might even be able to find a way home...is what you're saying?"

I was familiar with the World Language. My skill, the Great Sage, used the term when talking to me. It was my familiarity with it that led me to that conclusion. ~Volume 4, Chapter 3
But Ultimate Skill users like Rimuru, Luminous Valentintine, and Ultimate existences like True Dragons and Dagruel are independent of the world's laws.
"As expected of a demon overlord. Your magic is perfectly powerful. However, for so long as you are bound by the laws of this world your attack won't work against a True Dragon."

As if to prove her point, Velgrynd shattered the jet-black pillar from within. She raised her own mana and interfered with Carrera's magic, rendering it powerless ~Volume 15, Chapter 1
Unlike the frozen world—where only one law defined everything—the real
world had an entire set of laws that defined how things affected one another.
Many factors needed to be observed at the same time,and the ability to control all cause and effect was nothing but a pipe dream.It’s impossible to completely predict the future, because it’s impossible to have perfect control over all the world’s laws. And since she couldn’t fully predict what the overwhelmingly powerful Daggrull would do,the limits of Shion’s skill set began to show ~Volume 21
So the idea of remaking the world in a way that would affect Rimuru, Luminous Valentintine, and many other Ultimate Skill users and Ultimate existences doesn't make that much sense either.

Now, if we consider that the world is not continuously branching and therefore each world does not have its own parallel versions, but that remade the world also does not make much sense, there remains one last alternative.

In this alternative, world branches to prevent contradictions that might
come up result of Chloe's time travel.

In Chloe's case, time travel always ends at the same point (returning to the same point) and then the events of a new timeline begin.
“Anyhow, Chloe will lose consciousness soon, right? That is probably what happens when two of the same entity exist at the same place in spacetime continuity. Hinata, I believe your theory is correct.”

‹Right. And then, Chloe’s younger self will be physically transported to that time period since she’ll have just been summoned.›
So Hinata silently listened as Chloe continued. Apparently, her time travel always took place in the same era, in the same axis of time those were likely the limitations of her skill. Exactly where she was taken depended on the timing of her out-of-control episodes. ~Volume 11, Chapter 5
!! A new possibility has arisen. If the powers of the unique skill Time Travel, when merged with the ultimate skill Yog-Sothoth, allow the subject Chloe Aubert to control time itself...then Analyze and Assess will always fail, since it cannot evaluate phenomena separate from its own time line. ~Volume 12, Chapter 1
This case actually reflects a multiverse that shares a common history but branches off into different timelines at a certain point(s).

In Chloe's case, the loop in question would be Chloe time-traveling through different timelines, always returning to point "A" according to this example.
However, in Chloe's case, the world's branching would technically occur countless/infinite, so we would consider a multiverse with a single main branch of the form "A1, A2, A3.... A-Infinite".

Also, the infinite temporal thickness of the Chloe's Anti-Magic Mask could be considered as a result of the infinite loops (infinite returns to the main timeline) (or of course it could be the result of the world being remade infinite times, it's vague).
“Impossible! To deflect my attack, no, that ‘mask’… Could it be…that its temporal thickness…is infinite?!”

For the first time in thousands of years, Kuro was truly astonished, shaken to his core. In the face of this unbelievable situation, Kuro’s interest in Shizu deepened.

My attacks are ineffective. That ‘mask’ must be bound by some kind of causality. And that temporal thickness… Considering it has existed longer than I have, that ‘mask’ seems to transcend time. Who possesses such an artifact? Kufufufufu, this is very intriguing indeed!
Therefore, the idea of a branching world to avoid contradictions/paradoxes does not seem far-fetched at all.

However, I still agree with 2-A downgrade, as we've get multiple (actually two) statements implying existence of finite number of worlds with the release of Volume 22 (not translated yet)
 
I had received permission from @Qawsedf234

Timelines/Cycles

First of all, from my point of view, parallel universes were never constantly formed.

This statement alone refutes this idea.

But I don't think this definitively refutes the idea that the world could branch. Velgrynd didn't travel to a timeline where she already existed, as in Chloe's case. Instead, she traveled to another world in the multiverse.

Reason of why parallel universes are thought not to exist is that the world does not allow things like contradictions to unravel itself.

This contradiction is the situation of more than multiple of the same soul exist in the same space and time.

So, if parallel universes do not exist, how is the existence of different timelines explained? With the idea of world being remade.

However, there are some problems at this point. This remade can only be done by law of the world/the world itself and this can only happen by rewriting the timeline through the laws of world that govern causality.

But Ultimate Skill users like Rimuru, Luminous Valentintine, and Ultimate existences like True Dragons and Dagruel are independent of the world's laws.


So the idea of remaking the world in a way that would affect Rimuru, Luminous Valentintine, and many other Ultimate Skill users and Ultimate existences doesn't make that much sense either.

Now, if we consider that the world is not continuously branching and therefore each world does not have its own parallel versions, but that remade the world also does not make much sense, there remains one last alternative.

In this alternative, world branches to prevent contradictions that might
come up result of Chloe's time travel.

In Chloe's case, time travel always ends at the same point (returning to the same point) and then the events of a new timeline begin.



This case actually reflects a multiverse that shares a common history but branches off into different timelines at a certain point(s).

In Chloe's case, the loop in question would be Chloe time-traveling through different timelines, always returning to point "A" according to this example.
However, in Chloe's case, the world's branching would technically occur countless/infinite, so we would consider a multiverse with a single main branch of the form "A1, A2, A3.... A-Infinite".

Also, the infinite temporal thickness of the Chloe's Anti-Magic Mask could be considered as a result of the infinite loops (infinite returns to the main timeline) (or of course it could be the result of the world being remade infinite times, it's vague).

Therefore, the idea of a branching world to avoid contradictions/paradoxes does not seem far-fetched at all.

However, I still agree with 2-A downgrade, as we've get multiple (actually two) statements implying existence of finite number of worlds with the release of Volume 22 (not translated yet)

Genuinely no idea what you are talking about.


1.)timelines are independent of Chloe’s timetravel. All she does is go to an already existing timeline.as proven by velgrynd.so the world being remade isn’t a relevant theory

2.) even if there was only one world it still wouldn’t matter, because worlds are literally the container of the timelines. One world is 2-A due to containing infinite timelines.

Other Worlds≠parallel worlds=timelines.

Other worlds contain infinite parallel universes (timelines) so they would still be 2-A.

A finite amount of 2-A structures doesn’t debunk 2-A. All you need is one 2-A structure


(Text me on pm.)
 
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Received permission from @FinePoint
First of all, from my point of view, parallel universes were never constantly formed.
This statement alone refutes this idea.
I believe we already discussed this before, but in case you forgot, the type of "Parallel" world being referred to here is not the same as "Parallel" universes that Chloe talked about.
Here was the explanation from me and this was the staff confirmation.
So Parallel Worlds do branch constantly. It's simply that half of the theory mentioned was correct, and half was wrong. That is:
  • Timelines/Parallel Worlds do branch constantly.
  • BUT no two Chloe(s) can meet at the same time.
But I don't think this definitively refutes the idea that the world could branch. Velgrynd didn't travel to a timeline where she already existed, as in Chloe's case. Instead, she traveled to another world in the multiverse.
For the sake of not confusing stuff, can you please always use the term "parallel world" or "timeline" when referring to branched worlds, and not "another world" or "other worlds"? Since the two names mean different things, I'd prefer to avoid confusion.
Reason of why parallel universes are thought not to exist is that the world does not allow things like contradictions to unravel itself.
And that "contradiction" here is two Chloe(s) meeting at the same time, not the branching process itself. For instance, two Velgrynd(s) can exist, one inside the timeline, and one outside that couldn't travel to that timeline. They just can't meet at the same time. That's what "contradiction" means; Identity Overlapping. Hinata's own theory, which she first thought was "correct", was denied as "not quite", but it seems like Hinata didn't hear that since she proceeds to ignore what the thoughts from another character were saying. Plus the entire theory was simply her appeal to emotions.

Even more so, the thoughts saying contradictions can exist, you just need enough force, say "there's no other way to explain the existence of the mask", which has tw key points:
  • The character lacks another method of explanation, which can likely also be a result of their lack of knowledge.
  • The "contradiction" being talked about here is the "Mask", which isn't an identity contradiction but an age contradiction. Diablo explains that in the game.
On the other hand, contradictions indeed absolutely aren't allowed are identity overlaps. Note that the kanji for "parallel universes" here is also the same as in Volume 11, so there's no such thing as "they're referring to different things".
So the idea of remaking the world in a way that would affect Rimuru, Luminous Valentintine, and many other Ultimate Skill users and Ultimate existences doesn't make that much sense either.
It can make sense, though. We already know there are levels to "Laws", such as laws that bound unique skill users but not Ultimates, and laws that bound Ultimates, and so on and so forth, with VoTW being the set of all laws created. Even DLFs made of infons, which are detached from temporal elements, are prone to the branching process (different versions of Velgrynd in each timeline) and the law that doesn't allow contradictions apply to them as well.
In Chloe's case, the loop in question would be Chloe time-traveling through different timelines, always returning to point "A" according to this example.
However, in Chloe's case, the world's branching would technically occur countless/infinite, so we would consider a multiverse with a single main branch of the form "A1, A2, A3.... A-Infinite".

Also, the infinite temporal thickness of the Chloe's Anti-Magic Mask could be considered as a result of the infinite loops (infinite returns to the main timeline) (or of course it could be the result of the world being remade infinite times, it's vague).
That isn't exactly possible, since there already exists a Chloe in that point in time of the main timeline. Remember that Chloe's time travel ALWAYS takes place in the same era (the same span of 2000 or so years), so she can't travel to the past of the same timeline more than once because another version of her would already exist there.
I explained this in the past here, and quoting from there:
"I mean, there is no other way to explain the existence of the mask", so contradictions are, in fact, verboten. If Chloe had the power to shove the paradoxes aside, Chloe and Luminous wouldn't have to use Holy Arc to seal Chloe every time she travels[since her identity would overlap with child chloe otherwise]. Or to be precise :
  • According to your analogy, she travels in the same timeline every time. However, we already know that Luminous creates the Holy Arc every time just before Child Chloe is summoned to the timeline so they both do not overlap. However, if the timeline was the same, then lets say in the very first loop. Chloe travels back in time to point A, and experiences the first cycle. After failing the first cycle, she travels in time again to point A for the second time. However, if she does that, there would be already a chloe that exists in that point, aka the chloe that travelled in time for the first time. This means every time, Luminous would need to make a new holy arc FROM THE VERY START, rather then just before chloe gets summoned to this world. Additionally, this also means that the holy arcs would keep stacking and stacking, until they reach infinity[I already explained before why the cycles are infinite], but that's not the case here at all. We don't see any Chloe other then the first Chloe.
  • Now, going by my analogy. If each cycle is a different timeline, then when Chloe from the first timeline, say A, travels to timeline B, there is no existing chloe in the past and everything goes normal, she gets sealed just before child chloe is summoned to that timeline. Then, when she goes back in time again, to timeline C, there won't be any issue either, since Timeline C is an entirely new timeline, there's no "pre-existing time travelling versions" of adult chloe existing in the past of those timelines. Thus, everything goes normal.
To summarize:
  • No time travel by Chloe can occur in the same timeline because that would auto cause an identity overlap.
  • Thus why a different timeline must exist for each cycle.
Now, to summarize my whole argument as to why different timelines must exist for each cycle of Chloe:
  • In the original first Timeline A1, there is no time traveler Chloe. Child Chloe is summoned, becomes an adult, Rimuru helps her in some way and she gains the ability to loop in time. Let's say the time Chloe arrived (via summoning) in the first timeline is X.
  • Chloe makes her first ever loop in the same timeline as a past version of her doesn't exist there 2000s before X. So, she goes to 2000 years before X and tries again.
  • She arrives at time X eventually, where child Chloe already exists. At that moment, to prevent an identity overlap, adult Chloe is sent to the past again by the world to prevent an identity overlap. However, since this time, a Chloe already existed 2000 years before X, she's sent to the past of another timeline instead, where she didn't exist 2000 years before X yet. Call this timeline A2.
  • She repeats the same process again and again and again, infinitely. Each time, she's sent to another timeline entirely to prevent an identity overlap.
To counter potential arguments:
  • Only the astral body is sent to the past, not the physical one, so consciousnesses merge in the same timeline instead of going to other timelines.
Ans: That just isn't possible since Velgrynd too is a spiritual lifeform, so she could theoretically do the same by this logic, yet the world prevented her from travelling to a point she already existed in completely. She MUST travel to a different timeline entirely, where she didn't exist yet (in the point in time of any timeline she's travelling to).
Ans: Refers to a different kind of "Parallel" here as the kanji is quite different. Here was the explanation from me and this was the staff confirmation.
  • Any other potential argument that the world isn't being remade, and actually branching?
Ans: Of course. Yuuki in Volume 22 observed "Branched Worlds" that popped up randomly and disappeared, yet they had absolutely no relation to time travel. Scans:
現在地の座標が不明なのだから、今のマイに打つ手はなかった。
大地どころか、大気すら存在しない場所。上下左右の方向感覚もなく、目に映るものも何もない。
いや、虹のような色とりどりの光線が、幾何学模様を描いたりしていた。
それは雪の結晶のようなもので、何者かが意図した図形ではないのだろう。美しくも恐ろしい、死を前にして見る景色のようだった。
マイは、このまま何も出来ぬまま[彷徨][さまよ]う事になるのか、と思った。
一寸先は闇というが、本当に『結界』の外は未知の世界だった。
遠くで光り輝く虹が視えたりするが、そこに至るまでに何があるのかまったく視えないのである。
ごく近くで虹色の球が膨らみ、弾けて消えた。
何が起きたのかサッパリ不明だが、とんでもない状況なのだろうと推察される。
『うーん、ずっと観察していて気付いたんだけどさ、さっきそこで虹色の球が膨らんで消えただろ? アレって多分、一つの世界、宇宙だと思うんだ』
『宇宙ぅ?』
『一つの世界──って……』
『あの球の中では、時間が流れている。その余波で周辺にも時間流が発生するっぽいけど、それを観測出来ないんだよね……』
『それじゃあ、あの虹色の光球のどれかが、私達がいた世界なの?』
『違うと思うぜ。アレは派生世界なんだと思う。光球の発生から終焉まで、全てマチマチだしね』
観測出来るエネルギー量から考えても、ここで観測可能な光球はユウキ達がいた世界とは無縁の場所だろうと思われた。
(I've already made a request on the translation thread to translate something else before, so can't make another request. And I can't regularly come online to request stuff. Therefore, please get these translated in my stead 🙏)
Yet it also says this branched world was unrelated to the cardinal world (where Yuuki and Mai came from), which also means that the branching process:
  • Is not limited to a specific world.
  • Is not limited to time travel.
So there's literally nothing to refute the part of the theory that parallel universes are branching "constantly".

Note: My replies won't be regular since I'm not able to get on PC regularly due to irl issues, and nor do I have my phone atm so can't even know if someone replied to me or not. Please keep that in mind when waiting for my responses.
 
As per the cosmology page.and her own admission of it not being entirely right.
This is focusing on the wrong subject, it's not her questioning her theory but questioning whether or not the world allows contradictions. The world doesn't allow contradictions because it unravels the world, as it says. (obv don't focus on what's underlined for what I'm referencing).

Using that to discredit her theory and the confirmation of said theory when that "not quite" part isn't even referring to her entire theory, is quite disingenuous.
The point was that the part of the theory that was correct is no identity contradiction being able to exist, as proven by Velgrynd as well, but that parallel worlds/timelines DO exist.
We have quotes showcasing that Velgrynd proved parallel worlds don't exist. That's not saying other worlds with separate timelines don't exist though but branching timelines don't exist for a singular world/dimension.
1.) since Chloe goes to other timelines and has done that infinite amount of times. =2-A
Chloe didn't go through an infinite amount of timelines, she was infinitely going through them, but considering her looping stopped, that disproves her going through infinite amount of timelines even if you prove multiple timelines exist in a singular world.

Not only did I already address why the appeal to emotion holds no weight, considering the theory was confirmed by a third person narrative on 3 different occasions and backed up by luminas herself, but also the fact that like I said above "not quite" part refers to the contradictions not being able to exist part, as Hinata extrapolates on that concept and states,
There really was only one world, and it did not allow the existence of a paradox.
—No, that’s not entirely true. It’s not that it doesn’t allow the existence of a paradox. It just stops the world from collapsing.
It seemed, once everything was said and done, that the “one single world” theory was correct—and the world thus would never allow contradictions
.…Well, not quite. It’s not that contradictions are verboten—it’s that anything that causes the world to unravel is.

So it is only referencing the part about Contradictions/Paradoxes, not the other parts of her theory.
Now, to summarize my whole argument as to why different timelines must exist for each cycle of Chloe:
This is such a massive word salad just to ignore the fact that inverse, as they are discussing it, if the multiverse theory of branching timelines WERE TO EXIST, then two chloe's existing in the same timeline, would be fine, since that would only mean the Main Chloe jumped into another timeline, but still has a timeline to return to.

The issue is that Two Chloe's cannot exist, since there is no where for the original chloe to go to, so that's why she's forced back into the past.

The argument about Chloe being kept in the same era doesn't contradict this, cause she continuously remakes the timeline every time she's sent back. So once Main Chloe is sent back to the past, she starts remaking the timeline there.

So Chloe goes through cycle A, but once Kid chloe is brought in, she is sent back in timeline A to the past, starting a new cycle B. With Cycle A now ceasing to exist, since Main chloe is the anchor to her power, Cycle B starts to rewrite timeline A which will allow Main Chloe to exist every single time in that timeline even if she was there at one point. So Main Chloe is just continuously replacing the Main chloe ins timeline A 2000 years in the past. She doesn't have to be in another timeline, since the "remaking" of the timeline is still a possibility, which can still make sense even with her going into the past.

Also, the Chloe that was previously 2000 years in the past, could just cease to be when the new Main Chloe is sent to the past. Which would still keep Hinata's Theory, which again was confirmed multiple times, as the correct theory for how timelines worked within a universe/dimension.

In velgrynd's case, she couldn't go back in time, because her past version was there, so if she went back, she'd erased everything she did in the past that made the present what it was. So that's why she's careful not to travel into the past, because she'd remake the world, and have to restart everything she already did.

Of course. Yuuki in Volume 22 observed "Branched Worlds" that popped up randomly and disappeared, yet they had absolutely no relation to time travel.
派生世界
Doesn't necessarily means branching, it can mean Derived as well as in a variation of Yuuki and Mai's world, which is more close to the correct meaning since we know Veldanava made other worlds similar to the cardinal world universe. The "branching" worlds are not the same thing as the refutations for 2A. Since those "universes" were in reference to the dimensional worlds that Velgrynd went to in her travels. That's all that is, and we know that isn't in reference to the Multiverse theory in volume 11 since those worlds were never in the series at the time.

So in conclusion for responding to you both, the main contention is regarding the confirmation of Hinata's theory. Utilizing the "not quite" completely disregards the part of her theory she was correcting being that contradictions can't exist, not the the timeline was being remade. Nothing you've stated debunks that the remaking of the timeline's cannot be true, since Main chloe stuck in the past would simply be continuously rewriting the timeline.

The timeline we know is what Rimuru is going through, the Looping stopped so what we see is the finalized timeline as it's supposed to be. This is showcased on how Chronoa came to be and started fighting even when that was right after Chloe vanished. So all that was happening, is the ONLY timeline, as corrected by Main chloe and Hinata.
 
I feel like a broken record here, but if there's this much contention over how to interpret certain lines, we could always do "2-C, Possibly 2-A".
I mean his argument really comes from using 3 people with lesser knowledge over someone who has experienced it and outright tells you about the timelines. Theories vs actual experience


Chloe outright admits to not knowing how her powers work

Hinata is making theories based on Chloe’s statements

And luminous heard of the story from them. So all three of them are less knowledgeable than velgrynd who has access to the worlds laws better understanding of it, and literally traveled across all those worlds and timelines.
 
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I feel like a broken record here, but if there's this much contention over how to interpret certain lines, we could always do "2-C, Possibly 2-A".
The only issue, is the main contention, is that there is not branching timelines in each universe, since volume 11 explains why that can't be the case.

So saying it's "possibly 2-A" would mean, that it can be achieved inverse, and that I heavily disagree with being the case. Especially since Chloe never even went through infinite cycles anyway, since her cycling stopped.

So 2-A shouldn't even be a possibility, and even 2-B is assuming things that we can't prove to be the case, so 2-C would be the only provable tier since we already know the verse has other universes, and if those are accepted as L2-C, then the verse would be 2-C disregarding the "alternate" timeline argument from the opposition.
 
I mean his argument really comes from using 3 people with lesser knowledge over someone who has experienced it and outright tells you about the timelines. Theories vs actual experience


Chloe outright admits to not knowing how her powers work

Hinata is making theories based on Chloe’s statements

And luminous heard of the story from them. So all three of them are less knowledgeable than velgrynd who has access to the worlds laws better understanding of it, and literally traveled across all those worlds and timelines.
You would also have to use their knowledge to prove the existence of other timelines using MWI, so either way, we have to use what they tell us the reader.

Chloe didn't know much, but that's why her and Hinata were figuring out as they went along, and considering the narrative, 3rd person perspective, was confirming their theories to be true, we have far more reason and evidence to accept Hinata's theory of remaking the world's timeline as the truth of each universe and how the timeline's operate.
 
I mean his argument really comes from using 3 people with lesser knowledge over someone who has experienced it and outright tells you about the timelines. Theories vs actual experience


Chloe outright admits to not knowing how her powers work

Hinata is making theories based on Chloe’s statements

And luminous heard of the story from them. So all three of them are less knowledgeable than velgrynd who has access to the worlds laws better understanding of it, and literally traveled across all those worlds and timelines.
But none of Velgrynd scans is evidence for branches, as Velgrynd's journey is literally in the other worlds that exist outside the cardinal world, not about branches.
And in fact, that's not what Raphael meant, when you sees the context, you see that Raphael was just talking about Chloe having stopped time, not about being from another timeline, it is no wonder Rimuru immediately concluded that Raphael was talking about stop time.
 
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The only issue, is the main contention, is that there is not branching timelines in each universe, since volume 11 explains why that can't be the case.

So saying it's "possibly 2-A" would mean, that it can be achieved inverse, and that I heavily disagree with being the case. Especially since Chloe never even went through infinite cycles anyway, since her cycling stopped.
Something stopping isn’t a debunk to infinite Oml. (Btw how do you think traveling an infinite distance works?) How many times do you want an explanation or scans that literally tell you it is older than Diablo (who has existed before creation) and surpasses time.the whole point is that a hypertimeline exists. Which is STILL accepted. It just isn’t 5D.
But none of Velgrynd scans is evidence for branches, as Velgrynd's journey is literally in the other worlds that exist outside the cardinal world, not about branches.
Worlds don’t branch due to Chloe. They branch based on mwi. Chloe just time travels to pre-existing timelines .
And in fact, that's not what Raphael meant, when you sees the context, you see that Raphael was just talking about Chloe having stopped time, not about being from another timeline.
Literally says. Verbatim. “Cannot evaluate things separate from its own timeline”. It is literally talking about her skill which allows her to control time. Which allows her to timetravel AND stop time. They aren’t distinct things. (I won’t be responding to you anymore doubt you even have permission.
You would also have to use their knowledge to prove the existence of other timelines using MWI, so either way, we have to use what they tell us the reader.
They made two theories. One was then CONFIRMED by a knowledgeable character.the other which is a contradiction to the confirmation was an assumption based on their little understanding.
Chloe didn't know much, but that's why her and Hinata were figuring out as they went along
They were piecing things together as best they could. (Someone who doesn’t even know their own powers) vs someone who literally MASTERED their powers, was witnessing what was going on from an outside perspective, and literally spent years searching and researching worlds. One is guessing. Cool she came to the right conclusion (MWI) the other confirmed it.
, and considering the narrative, 3rd person perspective, was confirming their theories to be true, we have far more reason and evidence to accept Hinata's theory of remaking the world's timeline as the truth of each universe and how the timeline's operate.
The person confirming the theory to be true is less knowledgeable than the person who debunked it.


Character A “This is truly infinite power”


Character B (more knowledgeable) there is no such thing as infinite power. (Literally basically what happened for instant death)

It shouldn’t be hard to understand that the more knowledgeable person takes precedence which in this case is CLEARLY velgrynd.you are trying to take numbers over knowledge . (Iirc Chloe literally couldn’t control her powers or know how they worked until like vol 19 with the help of chronoa or something)

I will probably just let mods vote. I don’t really care anymore.
 
Literally says. Verbatim. “Cannot evaluate things separate from its own timeline”. It is literally talking about her skill which allows her to control time. Which allows her to timetravel AND stop time. They aren’t distinct things. (I won’t be responding to you anymore doubt you even have permission.
Rimuru saying directly that what Raphael was saying was that Chloe could stop time, he literally said that that was why Raphael were unable to analyze her.
In addition to Raphael herself pointing out that the reason she can't analyze Chloe is due to some "temporal manipulation" (ability) that makes her "separate from the timeline", and not due to her "being from another timeline".
 
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Something stopping isn’t a debunk to infinite Oml.
What do you think infinite mean? having no end. If something ends, it isn't infinite. We suspend disbelief on certain issues, like an someone crossing an infinite space because that allows us to scale someone to infinite speed even when they surpass an infinite distance which shouldn't be the case, but if you're whole argument predicates itself off of chloe repeatedly going through cycles and it was stated she doing this "infinitely", that would be discredited because her looping stops, therefore she couldn't have gone through infinite of something considering that her loops stop.

the whole point is that a hypertimeline exists. Which is STILL accepted
Where is that accepted? Also, where is the evidence of that being the case?
They branch based on mwi
Which they argue against in volume 11, so you can't utilize something in question to prove that it itself exists, that's just circular reasoning.

The whole contention is that MWI doesn't exist, so do you have evidence of MWI existing inside a singular dimension/universe? Which is the contention for the 2A tiering.

“Cannot evaluate things separate from its own timeline”
And I note that this is just referencing the loop/cycle, which has yet to be proven against.

One was then CONFIRMED by a knowledgeable character
So you agree the world being remade due to Chloe's looping is Confirmed? Then why are you so adamant to argue for MWI in a dimension/universe?

And it's not like their theory about contradictions not being able to exist isn't true, it's just not fully true since there are exceptions, like the mask. But you'd need to force that in with a godly amount of power.

Cool she came to the right conclusion (MWI) the other confirmed it.
No one confirmed MWI though, when was this the case that they confirmed MWI? They literally are stating that Single world theory is correct on multiple occasions, have you even been tracking the discussion so far?
The person confirming the theory to be true is less knowledgeable than the person who debunked it.
The narrator? Cause the 3rd person narrative is confirming this 3 times out of 4 while Luminas confirmed it the 4th time. And no one debunked it 💀

It shouldn’t be hard to understand that the more knowledgeable person takes precedence which in this case is CLEARLY velgrynd.
Velgrynd didn't debunk Single world theory, she just found out that there other worlds, which in canon isn't parallel worlds that volume 11 is debunking the existence of. Velgrynd confirms each Dimension has a singular timeline, no more. The whole tiering for 2A is about Chloe looping, not other worlds, so this proves you don't even know what the main arguments are for.

I don't really care about the Other dimensional Worlds for now, the 2A tiering is about volume 11 and the cycling, whether there were infinite timelines due to that. My whole CRT was made to debunk that and try to debunk the existence of the other worlds being universal in size.

Velgrynd's discoveries were that there were other worlds with their own timeline, cool. That's it. Branching timeline's DO NOT exist proven by Volume 11. Other Dimensional worlds are completely separate from branching timelines, so you cannot use them as supporting evidence for 2A debunks since those have nothing to do with each other, if you've been reading and paying attention to your own series.
 
Got permission from FinePoint to reply here.

As much as I don't want to bring untranslated stuff in here sorry about the edited mtl, the loops are still continuing.
In volume 22, it says Chronoa goes back to the past to merge with past Chloe in the dwelling of the spirits to guide that Chloe to a future as close as the current one. If this timeline is the last one in the loop then Chronoa wouldn't have had to go back in time and wouldn't need to basically go through the whole stories' events while pretending to be berserk like in volume 11 to get the past into this specific future.

Moreover──Chloe, who woke up from her sleep, was more deeply in sync with the[Manas] "Chronoa". Chronoa's ego naturally disappeared as Chloe accepted it.
No, that wasn't actually the case. As Chloe grew up, the role of the [Manas] Chronoa came to an end. And at that point, Chronoa had returned to the past and assimilated with the young Chloe. "Don't worry. I'll pretend to be driven mad and guide you so that you can definitely reach this future." That is Chronoa's determination. It was sad to part ways with Rimuru, but Chronoa smiled. Because, yes. I'm sure we'll meet again──
それに──眠りから目覚めたクロエは、[神智核][マナス]〝クロノア〟とより深く同調していた。自然とクロエが受け入れる形で、クロノアの自我が消えていったのである。──否、本当は違った。
クロエの成長に伴い、[神智核][マナス]〝クロノア〟の役目は終了した。そしてその時点で、〝クロノア〟は過去に戻って幼いクロエと同化していたのだ。
『安心しなさい。狂気に染まったフリをして、必ずこの未来に到達出来るように導いてあげるから』
というのが、クロノアの決意だ。
リムルと別れるのは寂しいが、クロノアは笑みを浮かべる。
だって、そう。
きっとまた、会えるから──

then their is the loops being described with the adjectives, (infinite and endless) with information from the raws showing that they have the kanji for infinite (無限, Mugen) in them.

This wasn’t a miracle, some surprise that occurred
out of nowhere. With Chloe’s unbending will, it was only natural that
she made this happen. Despite the infinite, repeating cycles of death
and birth, Chloe had overcome them all and still maintained her
straight-minded, innocent pureness. That sheer will, powerful
enough to push aside all hopelessness, was what engineered this
miracle. -OTL
It was not some accidental miracle, but instead a certain result of Chloe’s unyielding will. Chloe pushed forward, persevering through her endless cycle of repetition and in the end, managed to overcome all challenges to reach a whole new level. It was Chloe’s undying will that dispelled despair and made this miracle. -Slime Reader
無限に繰り返されたであろう輪(りん)廻(ね)を、純粋なまま真っ直ぐに超克したクロエ。その絶望を撥(は)ね除けたクロエの不屈の意思こそが、この奇跡を成就させたのである。

“...And so thanks to Hinata and Rimuru’s aid, I managed
to escape from my infinite cycle of death and rebirth.”
Once Chloe wrapped things up, everyone looked ready to
respond as they gauged one another. Veldora, never one to
read a room, kicked off the debate.
“So the Hero who sealed me away back then was—” -OTL
“—So, with the help of Hinata and Rimuru-san, I was able to safely free myself from the ‘Infinite Loop,”’ Chloe declared, marking the end to her almost inconceivable explanation.

Everyone looked like they had something to say, but kept quiet, glancing around as they tried to gauge each other’s reactions. In such an uneasy situation, Veldora was the one who broke the ice, mainly because he couldn’t read the mood at all.

“Which means the Hero who sealed me away was—” -Slime Reader
「──こうして、私はヒナタとリムルさんの助けを借りて、無事に〝無限の輪(りん)廻(ね)〟から抜け出せたの」
というクロエの言葉で、説明は終わった。
誰もが何かを言いたそうな顔をして、そして周囲の出方を窺(うかが)っている感じだ。
そんな中、場の空気を読まず、真っ先にヴェルドラが口火を切った。
「という事は、我を封じた〝勇者〟とは──」

The mask gains Infinite Time Thickness/Compression which could only be obtained by going through those loops this is backed by the canon side story: Interview with the demon butler but it's translation is bad.

The attack was blocked, leaving not a single scratch on Shizu’s mask. Not only that, but the arm that delivered the blow was blown away. For the first time, the demon known as Kuro was shaken.

“Impossible! To deflect my attack, no, that ‘mask’… Could it be…that its temporal thickness…is infinite?!”

For the first time in thousands of years, Kuro was truly astonished, shaken to his core. In the face of this unbelievable situation, Kuro’s interest in Shizu deepened.

My attacks are ineffective. That ‘mask’ must be bound by some kind of causality. And that temporal thickness… Considering it has existed longer than I have, that ‘mask’ seems to transcend time. Who possesses such an artifact? Kufufufufu, this is very intriguing indeed!

“Kufufufufu. That was more damage than I expected. Let’s call it quits for now!”

With that, Kuro halted his assault on Shizu. Showing no interest in the nominal outcome, he declared his own defeat and fled from the scene. The adventurers erupted in cheers. -Slime Reader

That is all I had to say. Keep in mind I won't be responding after since I would need permission and debating will only clog up the thread.
 
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Not only did I already address why the appeal to emotion holds no weight, considering the theory was confirmed by a third person narrative on 3 different occasions and backed up by luminas herself, but also the fact that like I said above "not quite" part refers to the contradictions not being able to exist part, as Hinata extrapolates on that concept and states,
The narrative has been inconsistent many times, at least with the "Yes and no" stuff. For instance, it first said Clayman had harmed Milim, but later said someone like Clayman could never do a thing to him. And in your own scans:
There really was only one world, and it did not allow the existence of a paradox.
No, that’s not entirely true. It’s not that it doesn’t allow the existence of a paradox. It just stops the world from collapsing.
That literally means her theory isn't true in its entirety. Which already supports the fact that Velgrynd travelled to parallel universes among other supporting evidence.
This is such a massive word salad just to ignore the fact that inverse, as they are discussing it, if the multiverse theory of branching timelines WERE TO EXIST, then two chloe's existing in the same timeline, would be fine, since that would only mean the Main Chloe jumped into another timeline, but still has a timeline to return to.

The issue is that Two Chloe's cannot exist, since there is no where for the original chloe to go to, so that's why she's forced back into the past.
And that itself is partially correct and partially true. In that two chloe(s) cannot exist at the same time but timelines do branch. Actual proof from Velgrynd and Yuuki's case far outweighs Hinata's confirmation which was at that moment also said to be "not quite so".
The argument about Chloe being kept in the same era doesn't contradict this, cause she continuously remakes the timeline every time she's sent back. So once Main Chloe is sent back to the past, she starts remaking the timeline there.

So Chloe goes through cycle A, but once Kid chloe is brought in, she is sent back in timeline A to the past, starting a new cycle B. With Cycle A now ceasing to exist, since Main chloe is the anchor to her power, Cycle B starts to rewrite timeline A which will allow Main Chloe to exist every single time in that timeline even if she was there at one point. So Main Chloe is just continuously replacing the Main chloe ins timeline A 2000 years in the past. She doesn't have to be in another timeline, since the "remaking" of the timeline is still a possibility, which can still make sense even with her going into the past.

Also, the Chloe that was previously 2000 years in the past, could just cease to be when the new Main Chloe is sent to the past. Which would still keep Hinata's Theory, which again was confirmed multiple times, as the correct theory for how timelines worked within a universe/dimension.
This whole argument is based on remaking the world, or, in other words, reversing everything, yet Diablo, who acknowledged the existence of the mask and the loops (cycles) said that reversing time is impossible, even though stopping time is possible, as time flows ONLY in one direction like an arrow.
時間(ジカン)とは、完全(ムゲン)から虚無(ゼロ)へと集束(シュウソク)する現象(ゲンショウ)であり、その到達点(トウタツテン)は“全(ゼン)なる一(イチ)”というのが私(ワタシ)の見解(ケンカイ)。
停止する事は出来るかも知れませんが巻き戻すなど不可能であり、
つまりは、その時点での時間厚(じかんあつ)の蓄積量は、万物不変の絶対値であるべきなのです。
その結論が覆されたとなると、私の考えが間違っていたのでしょうか?
いいえ、違いますね。
その“仮面”が特異点に関与している、と見るべきでしょう。
では、どうして彼女がそんなものを持っているのか?
俄然興味が湧くというものでした。
だから私は彼女を見逃したのですが、それが彼女との因縁の始まりだったのです。
Diablo's Interview
Past chloe ceasing to exist when new chloe arrives is denied by the fact that Velgrynd, with an Ultimate skill at that unlike Chloe who previously only had a unique skill, still couldn't travel to a point she already existed in.
In velgrynd's case, she couldn't go back in time, because her past version was there, so if she went back, she'd erased everything she did in the past that made the present what it was. So that's why she's careful not to travel into the past, because she'd remake the world, and have to restart everything she already did.
That is literally contradicting what the scans say. They mention the existence of Parallel Worlds, and at the same time, say Velgrynd can't go to that point in time where she already exists in. If what you said was true, than Velgrynd's "can't go back to that point" statement wouldn't hold true. So your whole argument false apart.
Velgrynd had traveled through all those worlds. But all of it was not of her own intention, but by what she was guided to. There were different levels of civilization, and Velgrynd had no way of guessing which dimension or timeline she was in. Also, because parallel universes do not overlap, it is impossible for the same entity to overlap on the same timeline. In other words, just because you went there once does not mean you can go to the same place. If the Velgrynd exists in the same dimension at the same time, the exact space-time coordinates can be recognized. However, as there is already a Velgrynd at that time, ‘Spacetime Leap’ cannot be used to jump there, even with the Ultimate Skill ‘Divine Flame King Cthugha.’
Slimereader V17, Chapter 2
文明レベルも様々で、それがどの次元で、どの時間軸なのかも、ヴェルグリンドには推し量る術すべ などな い。また、平行世界が重なり合って存在する事はないので、同一時間軸に同じ存在が重複するのは不可 能だ。
つまり、一度行ったからといって、同じ場所に行けるという訳ではないのである。
ヴェルグリンドが存在する次元の同一時間帯ならば、正確な時空間座標を認識出来ている。だがしかし、そこにはその時点のヴェルグリンドが存在している訳で、究極能力 アルティメットスキル 『炎神之王 クトゥグア 』の『時空間跳躍』でも 跳べないのだ。
RAWs
As read, it says her ability outright cannot be used in such a situation, rather than saying "she can jump there but her other self would be erased".

The very fact that she says "Because Parallel Universes do not overlap" automatically necessitates the existence of "parallel universes".
派生世界
Doesn't necessarily means branching, it can mean Derived as well as in a variation of Yuuki and Mai's world, which is more close to the correct meaning
Yet it can also precisely mean branched worlds. Per what dictionary says, the kanji specifically means derivation as in one thing that is an off-spring of another. Well, take that with a grain of salt, in the end, a confirmation from a Translation staff would be needed, so let's wait for that.
since we know Veldanava made other worlds similar to the cardinal world universe.
That he did not. It is clearly said by Velgrynd that there's an extremely large diversity between different other worlds.
Velgrynd went through a cycle of encounters and partings. Through them, she came to understand that Veldanava had created more than one world. Many of them, in fact.
A single world was self-enclosed; there was no such thing as parallel worlds, but there were so-called “other worlds,” residing in alternate dimensions. That much Velgrynd already knew thanks to the otherworlders she had met, but she hadn’t imagined the sheer number of other worlds out there, and their sheer diversity. They could run on completely different laws, or be unbound by the rules of karma.

Indeed, a wealth of civilizations could intermix in the physical worlds contained within vast spiritual realms. They could look familiar, all magic and sword fighting, or they could be bereft of magicules and locked away from all types of spells. Civilizations could be driven by a thing called science, and some of the less common realms featured human beings transformed into machines. Some worlds were small enough that a fully unleashed True Dragon could wipe them from existence; others were wastelands, fought over constantly by angels and demons with the powers of awakened demon lords.
OTL V17, Chapter 2
Velgrynd had a series of encounters and goodbyes. Through it all, Velgrynd came to understand that there is no single world that Veldanava has created. He created many worlds. There was one world, and there were no parallel worlds. But there were other worlds.

There were ‘otherworlders,’ so she was aware of that fact, but Velgrynd had never imagined that there were so many different worlds. They were governed by completely different laws, and there was no causality. It was a material world within a great spiritual world of many different civilizations. From the familiar world where swords and magic are the norm, to the world where magic is non-existent and cannot be used. There was also a rare world where scientific civilization had developed and humankind had become mechanized. There were weak worlds that could be blown away by a True Dragon if it unleashed all of its strength, and there were desolate worlds where angels and demons comparable to awakened Demon Lords were in constant conflict.
Slimereader V17 Chapter 2
There is this:
If Velgrynd’s memory was correct, his father was the owner of as piece of Rudra’s soul. His name was Laurent Hayes, and she was with him from his youth until he died a mortal death. There are many other things she was curious about, but she had to look into those matters. If they were in the same world, she could be sure that they were the same nation and the same person, but there are also similar worlds in other dimensions.
But this doesn't particularly say similar to the cardinal world itself. It just says there are some worlds similar to each other.
Also, the kanji here is completely different.
同一世界線上ならば間違いなく、同一国家、同一人物だと断定出来るのだが、別次元世界アナザーワールド には似通っ た世界があるからだ。
The "branching" worlds are not the same thing as the refutations for 2A. Since those "universes" were in reference to the dimensional worlds that Velgrynd went to in her travels. That's all that is, and we know that isn't in reference to the Multiverse theory in volume 11 since those worlds were never in the series at the time.
What matters here is the Kanji, and for that part, it is the same as the kanji used in V11 for the Multiverse theory. There is no other instance where the kanji "平行世界" is used, in any other part of the series.
So saying it's not a reference to the Multiverse theory is a claim without a sufficient supporting argument.
So in conclusion for responding to you both, the main contention is regarding the confirmation of Hinata's theory. Utilizing the "not quite" completely disregards the part of her theory she was correcting being that contradictions can't exist, not the the timeline was being remade. Nothing you've stated debunks that the remaking of the timeline's cannot be true, since Main chloe stuck in the past would simply be continuously rewriting the timeline.
And per what you yourself said, the contradictions were dependent on the existence of other timelines:
as they are discussing it, if the multiverse theory of branching timelines WERE TO EXIST, then two chloe's existing in the same timeline, would be fine
So rather than saying our argument disregards something, check what you yourself claimed. If the contradiction part can exist, it also means the parallel universes part can as well.
The timeline we know is what Rimuru is going through, the Looping stopped so what we see is the finalized timeline as it's supposed to be. This is showcased on how Chronoa came to be and started fighting even when that was right after Chloe vanished. So all that was happening, is the ONLY timeline, as corrected by Main chloe and Hinata.
Whether Chloe's own loops restarted or not does not have anything to do with the branching of universes. I don't understand why you are bringing this up when the branching is a natural process. Example being with the cases Yuuki and Velgrynd.

So far, your sole argument is Hinata's theory and the narrator "confirming" her theory even though the next thoughts said otherwise, when:
  • The narrator is not always consistent in this series, or to be exact, it 'goes with the flow'. It accepts some claims as pre-established before but later says otherwise. That is shown multiple times throughout the series.
  • Hinata herself is not a knowledgeable character, only a unique skill user, and compared to the statements from ultimate skill users that have a deeper understanding of the world, her claims hold little value. P.S., the same Hinata thought she could fight Veldora while being a unique skill user lmao...
  • Hinata's whole statement is an appeal to emotions, and that part of the wording is CLEAR.
  • Many things in-verse contradict her appeal to emotion theory, including many knowledgeable characters, including beings like Diablo whose statements have been among some of the most consistent and reliable ones in the entire series, with diablo himself being extremely knowledgeable and one of the oldest in the series.
And a reminder before I go off to anyone following my posts:
Note: My replies won't be regular since I'm not able to get on PC regularly due to irl issues, and nor do I have my phone atm so can't even know if someone replied to me or not. Please keep that in mind when waiting for my responses.
(Edit: Forgot to add. I got the permission from @FinePoint to post this.)
 
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I asked Ant for permission to comment, and he did.

Firstly speaking about Chloe's time travel, no she is not resetting the world, but she is not traveling to a different timeline either.

As soon as Hinata receives an attack and dies, Chloe's ability is automatically activated, and this makes her go back 2000 years into the past.


As soon as Chloe goes back in time, she gains memories of the previous cycle, this ability is activated automatically without her having control.


So there is no "entity overlap" on Chloe's temporal trip, due to what I will explain now, first imagine that there are two Chloes, Chloe X and Chloe Y.

Chloe X would be Chloe of the current cycle, this Chloe is living normally, at some point, Rimuru ends up dying, and then after a while, Chloe X eventually witnesses Hinata's death, Hinata's death immediately causes Chloe X to enable her time travel ability and come back 2000 years in the past. This same Chloe X tries to prevent Rimuru's death in the future by changing the past until his life is over.

Times after the death of Chloe X, begins the adventure of Chloe Y, and she goes through the same thing, but with different events due to the past changes that Chloe X has done, she goes through the death of Rimuru, and then after a while, Hinata's death causes her to return in the past. This time, Chloe Y after returning in the past has the memories of the previous cycle, the memories of Chloe X, and then Chloe Y tries to change the past again to avoid the death of Rimuru, but this time with different actions from Chloe X, since she has the memories of Chloe X.

This cycle continues, until it can finally break the cycles in the last attempt.

  • There is no overlap on Chloe's time trip, as a single Chloe travels to the past and receives the memories of the previous cycle, after Chloe from the previous cycle dies the next one passes through the cycle;
  • There is not exactly a statement about the world being reset, but it is not exactly a necessary statement, because simply what happens is that Chloe comes back in time and changes the future.


Now, talking about the evidence related to Velgrynd.


I don't understand how this is being argued as evidence for MWI.

For the beginning of everything, Velgrynd uses the kanjis "平行", which are about "independent parallels", or rather, would be separated lines (worlds), without any interaction, or in other words, separate space-time continuums, and obviously there is all the fact that all of it Velgrynd's journey takes place in the "other worlds", which are separate continuous space-time.



When Velgrynd denies the existence of parallel universes, she uses the kanji "並列", which would basically be interconnected parallel lines, or rather, parallel lines that have some connection, something in common or have the same rules (or also "lined" lines, which would be the case with the branches that are being argued), they are kanji that are generally used for branches, while Velgrynd openly says that even if they may have things like the same names and appearances, the characters from different worlds are essentially different people.

  • The only time Velgrynd mentions the kanjis that are usually used for ramifications ("並列"), she uses to deny the existence of these type of universes, while stressing that there are "other worlds" (separate continuous space-time) that can have characters with things like equal name and appearance;
  • Literally no statement from Velgrynd proves the MWI, they are all just confirmations about the existence of the "other worlds", which are separate space-time continuums.
There really was only one world, and it did not allow the existence of a paradox.
No, that’s not entirely true. It’s not that it doesn’t allow the existence of a paradox. It just stops the world from collapsing.
And since @TheHyperGuy had already explained in previous comments, this part does not deny or belies that the theory of the unique world is correct, only specifically speaks that the part of the paradoxes is "a little wrong."
 
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What are the conclusions and summarised arguments here so far? 🙏
 
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