TenSura LN Revision - Cosmology Section Addition

[Mizuki67]

Ok so think of it like this,
There's a character "A" said character becomes non-existent (0) and then someone managed to erase that character deepening his Non-existent nature or making him more Non-existent. That would be layers into NEP-1. Whereas if that character somehow managed to achieve a state of non existence that's fundamentally different from non-existence (0) then that character would be NEP-2.
I will give a really bad analogy to explain.
You know how Dimensional scaling works right ? Like you can use higher degrees of Infinity to get Higher Dimensional AP well layers into NEP-1 is like that. The NEP itself is more non-existent but NEP-2 is like 1-A which you can't reach via simply adding more Infinities or in this case "becoming more Non-existent" but this is just my interpretation so best to wait for a knowledgeable mod to explain better ig.

Wtf so NEP nature 2 is just being fundamentally different from non existence and even existence it self.

 

[Cipher72]

So NEP nature 2 is just being fundamentally different from non existence and even existence it self

Yes

 

[Mizuki67]

Yes

Uhh okay that is still kinda confusing cuz I had never seen statements like these before. Even if someone did come across it it is a really rare case for fiction stories to have unless the author is a power scaler fan somehow

 

[Cipher72]

Uhh okay that is still kinda confusing cuz I had never seen statements like these before. Even if someone did come across it it is a really rare case for fictional stories to have one unless the author is a power scaler fan somehow

Umm not to clot the thread but the easiest way to NEP-2 is via like ND/PP type relationships (well NEP-2 is ND), a lot of comic characters have it because of that like almost all Marvel abstracts, DC abstracts etc and then there's your chinese cultivators who at stage 567 manage to get the Heavenly Dao which is beyond distinction, existence and Non-existence. So yea it's rare but there are ways to get it.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

and who is 'their own scalers'...? You might be getting that info from mg larpers, fam

Dereck...

We will start by mentioning that Graham's source (concept) is non-existence

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

Dereck...

okay, so it was worded the wrong way then.

why wasn't it just said his source was nonexistence rather than him being 'THE concept of nonexistence', different meanings, anyways unfollowing, this thread isn't of my interest

 

[Mizuki67]

Also guys please stick to the topic. This is not MGK thread. We should be calling staffs for now

 

[Verlice_tempest]

@Astral_Trinity439 Information had engraved life and death of a spiritual being itself right??
At shallow layers of hell a high ranking slf can live, and it has "negative energy' the opposite of life and nonexistence

But going deeper even the death of negative energy and life both are nonexistent where spiritual lifeform turn nonexistent

Also if pseudo hell of angra manyuu is pretty blatant for layers as soul gets more nonexistent and exhausted to complete nothingness

 

[Verlice_tempest]

I phrase it badly, but i was just saying that info engraved non-existence as well

 

[Verlice_tempest]

If I remember correctly, Graham is the concept of nothingness, and "becomes emptier", thus they gained their NEP 2.

I guess considering heart core is "conceptual self" of being, the concept of nep beings in tensura(demons, like diablo) should reflect this nothingness too right? And becoming "more emptier" was shown by the pseudo hell?(Feels like a strech but if you think bout info having nothingness ig)

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

@Astral_Trinity439 Information had engraved life and death of a spiritual being itself right??

Oh right, I completely forgot this lol

This would do for life and death aspect for NEP

 

[Ultimuru]

Why we don't count erasure of information in infons as destruction of infons themselves? Sure, it's not directly stated, but mere fact that void devours infons, can break into them and erase contained information should mean void is also able to destroy infons as well. Considering information is even more fundamental than information particle and can be erased, I don't know why we assume infons can't be erased too. Especially void from deeper layers where even highest spiritual lifeforms dies.

Unless my reasoning is wrong.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Why we don't count erasure of information in infons as destruction of infons themselves? Sure, it's not directly stated, but mere fact that void devours infons, can break into them and erase contained information should mean void is also able to destroy infons as well. Considering information is even more fundamental than information particle and can be erased, I don't know why we assume infons can't be erased too. Especially void from deeper layers where even highest spiritual lifeforms dies.

Unless my reasoning is wrong.

I think the problem with that is how the LN specifically points out that the void erases information ON the particle, thus no orders are transmitted, not that the particles themselves are stopped or erased

 

[CJunitilarian]

I think the problem with that is how the LN specifically points out that the void erases information ON the particle, thus no orders are transmitted, not that the particles themselves are stopped or erased

tbf, it's always interaction with the surface and not fully erasing the particle...... meh
Just erases the information, "surface" on the particle , still somm though

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

tbf, it's always interaction with the surface and not fully erasing the particle...... meh
Just erases the information, "surface" on the particle , still somm though

Eh, I think it's to stay consistent with the particles being present in all facets of creation and foundation of everything lol

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Oh, btw, Ciel is busy with Eid so she won't be able to edit the OP
Might have to manually ping staff to important arguments when they come

Andd I'll also be quite busy tomorrow since it's Eid for me tomorrow.
I'll try to ask Ciel if she gets free at night, tho no guarantee.

 

[Ciel_Trinity439]

done

 

[Mizuki67]

done

You can just add my approval for nep

 

[Humanitus_Primevilus888]

I agree to everything but neutral on the infinite layer part

 

[Elizhaa]

Umm not to clot the thread but the easiest way to NEP-2 is via like ND/PP type relationships (well NEP-2 is ND), a lot of comic characters have it because of that like almost all Marvel abstracts, DC abstracts etc and then there's your chinese cultivators who at stage 567 manage to get the Heavenly Dao which is beyond distinction, existence and Non-existence. So yea it's rare but there are ways to get it.

It is basically the case NEP Nature Type 2 is basically Nondual/PP or transdual nonexistence.

 

[Elizhaa]

What is quick summary for new arguments?

 

[Mizuki67]

What is quick summary for new arguments?

erm so basically nep nature type 1 for void and aspect type 1,2 , 3 , 4 and 5 because it could erase stuff

So I think we can assume "Voids" here talk about Voids from the Abyss" cuz they never actually summoned the Voids from baseline Hell.

Thus:

Hell: Nonexistent Information
Cardinal World: Existent Information
Depths of Hell: Erases information itself, both existent and nonexistent

NEP 2 comes from depth of hell because it is fundamentally distinct from information that has both the code of existence and non-existence

 

[Astral_void4]

I agree with everything. Alright, I’ll return to the wiki in about 14 days, or maybe sooner. I’m not really sure.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

What is quick summary for new arguments?

Hell (baseline) is NEP1 with nonexistent information (information exists but it is nonexistent)

Depths of Hell are NEP2 becuase they outright erase information, existent or nonexistent.
Post explaining it:

TenSura LN Revision - Cosmology Section Addition

Also this should be NEP2, it is already a non-existent void so naturally it's NOT-existent but it's also seemingly beyond traditional nothingness so it's also NOT-non-existent. NOT(existence & non-existence) is NOT-existence OR NOT-non-existence which Hell is.

vsbattles.com

Since this conversation from NEP1 to 2 is a result of increase in depth, and the depth itself is bottomless, endless and ever-expanding into the Cardinal world when summoned, the layers are equally infinite.

Incidentally, Ultima’s specialty, the dark magic Nihilistic Vanish, was a spell that mimicked this “depths of Hell” mechanism. This, however, was the real thing, no mere imitation. It didn’t just work across a wider area; it could turn a whole region of the planet into a hellscape, making it easy to understand how dangerous this spell was. In the event (likely or not) Testarossa failed to control it, the void energy would flow out endlessly, and the world would be swallowed up by the ever-expanding abyss and collapse upon itself.
V22C1 OTL
---------
ゼラヌスに向けたのと同じ、底なしの闇がヴェガを包み込もうとしていた。それは、深しん淵えんより来きたる〝虚無〟の力だ。ディアブロもゼギオン同様──いや、それ以上に、自由自在に〝扉〟を開けられるようになっていたのだった。故に、数字などでは測れないのである。

The same bottomless darkness that had descended upon Zeranus a moment earlier—the power of the void, straight from the abyss—was about to envelop Vega next. It was just like how Zegion was able to open the “door” at will; if anything, Diablo was better at it than him. There was no longer any measuring him by numbers.
V21C4 OTL

Edit: sorry about the delay, kinda busy with Eid

 

[Embers_of_Twilight]

Well now, here

So basically. Hell (baseline) also does have information. Why? Cuz Rain, Mizari and Guy were fighting in Hell before the creation of the world, and Guy destroyed their heart core. That means they had heart cores even in hell:


It's just that Hell (baseline)'s information is already NEP.

Well, conventional souls here are converted into energy (nonexistent). But you see, Souls are already pure energy (positive energy to be precise):


So it's like Abyss converts existent souls to nonexistent souls. And for demons that already exist there accustomed to it, they'd already be in the latter form. So "information" is written on both existent energy and nonexistent energy.

On the other hand, the Void of the Abyss erases information:

Well, to be specific, this "Void Energy" is talking about the void summoned by other characters. And well, they never summoned anything from Hell, they always summoned the Void directly from the Abyss. (I can't really show they didn't summon the baseline Hell cuz, well, they never did, there's nothing to showcase)



So I think we can assume "Voids" here talk about Voids from the Abyss" cuz they never actually summoned the Voids from baseline Hell.

Thus:

Hell: Nonexistent Information
Cardinal World: Existent Information
Depths of Hell: Erases information itself, both existent and nonexistent.


Similar to Cipher's and Eikichi's analogy, I see. In that case, would the above suffice?

Call me sceptical (insanely) but, since the scans themselves don't say anything about the depth of hell being more empty/different than the surface (aside from its erasing potency), what's stopping anybody from saying that the depth of hell still contains NEP information/NEP1 (assuming it is a thing, since even for that I think that the NEP energy is just null energy, aside from specifically being information in a paradoxical non-existent form), but in a more potent form/layered NEP1. Which can still explain that it would erase more fundamental heart core to nep energy?

The surface hell (let's call it that) is potent enough to turn soul into null energy (baseline NEP1), and when you reach the depth hell the potency of that erasure just increases coz the null energy that is present there is of an even deeper information like Heart cores.

 

[Dereck03]

Sigh, sorry for being the fly in the ointment in this nice thread. I disagree with all those layers being proposed here and NEP 2. TL;DR of what I see as wrong with the OP.

1. The depths aren’t shown as a hierarchical structure in relation to NEP; again, because I saw the same “INFINITELY deep/bottomless” argument repeated many times, this doesn’t translate to a hierarchy, and from what’s been shown, it’s just a layer in NEP 1 again.

2. The fact that even spiritual life forms capable of surviving in hell cannot survive in the depths only shows that the void there is sufficient to overcome the innate resistance of those life forms. I recall having discussed this very argument before, though I don’t remember where and besides, this is a far-fetched interpretation

Demons or similar Spiritual Life, who can exist at the surface of Hell, cannot go to the depths without being erased completely. This makes the Layers proportional to its Depth, which is infinite.

Refer to point one. Assuming that layers at greater depths are stronger simply because they are deeper is completely absurd, since, as I mentioned in point 1, there is no evidence to suggest that the deeper a layer is, the stronger its erasure effect, nor is there any proof that this is merely a void with a stronger erasure effect.

3. The whole point that hell contains nonexistent information is wacky. The OP explains that

“souls here are converted into energy (nonexistent).”

But energy does not equate to nonexistence, and he emphasizes that:

"Life cannot exist in Hell; even the soul is destroyed and turned into energy. “It was a true void of nothingness.”

Since, given the nature of Hell, only life forms with innate resistance can survive there, anyone else would die because they cannot withstand being in Hell. It’s like someone who can live in lava and someone who has no resistance to fire being thrown into the lava—nothing more than simple logic, but here it is extrapolated into something more “ontological,” I would say. The entire argument that hell is “nonexistent information” falls apart entirely, since it is an extrapolation from a simple NEP capable of erasing the soul—which itself contains information. That, in turn, neither creates nor produces what they are calling “nonexistent souls” or “nonexistent information”; it is merely a simple erasure of existence at those levels.

And pay close attention to this in the OP

Hell has a concept called “Depth,” where the “deeper” regions of Hell are harder to survive in.

Where does it say that the depths have regions where the deeper you go, the harder it is to exist? Let’s make a distinction between Hell and the Depths: those from Hell cannot survive in the Depths. That said, your own scan only says it’s an ever-expanding abyss, and pay attention to this.

“Void energy would flow out endlessly”

The same energy found in the Depths will flow endlessly; here, it only speaks of energy flowing through the entire abyss, not that it becomes stronger the deeper you go so said layers you claim here are just nonexistent.

Finally, Occam’s razor holds that, when reaching a conclusion, one should always opt for the simplest interpretation. In this case, the simplest, best-supported, and least presumptuous interpretation is that these dudes have a good resistance to the erasure, rather than the extraordinary claim that “they were NEP from the start or that their information was NEP as saying that just cause heart cores exist in hell means that these heart cores are non-existent is a flimsy argument with no basis in fact.

The same applies to everything else I said about NEP 2 and its layers.


In short, I can see NEP 1 (for hell) and one layer into it (for Depths).

 

[Ferno1234]

1. The depths aren’t shown as a hierarchical structure in relation to NEP; again, because I saw the same “INFINITELY deep/bottomless” argument repeated many times, this doesn’t translate to a hierarchy, and from what’s been shown, it’s just a layer in NEP 1 again.

I've yet to see "NEP 1 layered" being a thing in Vsbattles, is there a source for this?

 

[Dereck03]

I've yet to see "NEP 1 layered" being a thing in Vsbattles,

This might be the first one, so... NEP 2 layered already exists and it's not only graham tho.

 

[Embers_of_Twilight]

I've yet to see "NEP 1 layered" being a thing in Vsbattles, is there a source for this?

Err
This thing is as deductive as it can get.
Layering is a case of overcoming resistances by the ability/spell/ontology's potency whatever you've got.

In this case, if a NEP energy which has the tendency to erase souls is resisted by higher beings, but a deeper version of it just bypass/overwhelm even those beings and erase them, then it's textbook layering showcase.

 

[Mizuki67]

Free NEP 1 erasure for tensura characters i guess. We should probably make a new thread to discuss the abilities and resistance characters might acquire once this is settled.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Sigh, sorry for being the fly in the ointment in this nice thread. I disagree with all those layers being proposed here and NEP 2. TL;DR of what I see as wrong with the OP.

1. The depths aren’t shown as a hierarchical structure in relation to NEP; again, because I saw the same “INFINITELY deep/bottomless” argument repeated many times, this doesn’t translate to a hierarchy, and from what’s been shown, it’s just a layer in NEP 1 again.

2. The fact that even spiritual life forms capable of surviving in hell cannot survive in the depths only shows that the void there is sufficient to overcome the innate resistance of those life forms. I recall having discussed this very argument before, though I don’t remember where and besides, this is a far-fetched interpretation

Refer to point one. Assuming that layers at greater depths are stronger simply because they are deeper is completely absurd, since, as I mentioned in point 1, there is no evidence to suggest that the deeper a layer is, the stronger its erasure effect, nor is there any proof that this is merely a void with a stronger erasure effect.

To this, the importance is in knowing how even the first layer works. That is, by depth. You gain 1 layer by going into the depth. Becuase you go to the depth, something that didn't get erased above gets erased when going deeper.

This simple single layer explains how the hierarchy of depth works.

3. The whole point that hell contains nonexistent information is wacky. The OP explains that

He'll contains information yet it also converts souls (which are which contains information) into nothingness.

But energy does not equate to nonexistence, and he emphasizes that:

As the scans sure, information is written on information particles, which are something that are contained within all facets of the world, including energy

So is the data written directly onto this energy? Not exactly. First, there’s the ego, a set of amorphous wavelengths within the soul, and the group of data particles that surrounds it. This is known as the heart, and that’s where all the data is stored. The crystallized energy that covers this heart is what we call the soul.
V13 Epilogue OTL
-------------
If that was the case, was it possible to directly imbue information to energy—Well, that was unlikely.

First of all, there would be plenty of “selfs” that existed on different wavelengths, and the combined entity of Information Particles would encapsulate them—thus forming a core that included all of the information.

The crystallization of the energy that encapsulated one’s core would be their “soul.”
Slimereader

• Infons
The smallest unit of this world, even smaller than spiritrons. They are included in every facet of the world, including souls. Having received the authority to interfere with them from Chronoa, Rimuru can observe and control them to a limited extent.

These data particles were even smaller than spiritual particles, she explained, their mass about as close to zero as you could get, and they were found in everything that existed in the world. It was possible to observe data particles, although it was limited to spaces like inside my Stomach and Chronoa’s Unlimited Imprisonment. They were the units Raphael apparently worked with when organizing my skill sets.
V11C5 OTL
-----------
An ‘information particle’ was a substance smaller than even ‘spiritrons,’ and was close to having no mass at all. All matter in the world had to contain ‘information particles.’

Even though they only existed in my ‘Stomach’ and Chronoa’s ‘Infinite Prison,’ these ‘information particles’ could be observed. Raphael seemed to have the ability to manipulate information particles to either combine or abolish Skills.

Now with the access granted by the owner of the ‘Infinite Prison,’ Raphael obtained the freedom to exercise its authority over it.
Slimereader

It even clarifies that Should are converted into energy which is equates to Void of nothingness

Life cannot exist in Hell; even the soul is destroyed and turned into energy. It was a true void of nothingness

Since, given the nature of Hell, only life forms with innate resistance can survive there, anyone else would die because they cannot withstand being in Hell. It’s like someone who can live in lava and someone who has no resistance to fire being thrown into the lava—nothing more than simple logic, but here it is extrapolated into something more “ontological,” I would say. The entire argument that hell is “nonexistent information” falls apart entirely, since it is an extrapolation from a simple NEP capable of erasing the soul—which itself contains information. That, in turn, neither creates nor produces what they are calling “nonexistent souls” or “nonexistent information”; it is merely a simple erasure of existence at those levels.

The thing is, hell doesn't have just "higher spiritual lifeforms". It also has obviously fodder demons, lesser demons etc.

But back to the topic. Newborn demons don’t get involved with factions, but once they evolve into Greater Demons, that’s when they get divided up by color and join one. Some demons are born with a color already associated with them; that’s often the case with reincarnated demons. Demons are immortal, so if they die, they just get reborn like that. Even these, however, can be destroyed if their core is shattered, I think. Demons are pretty tough, though, so maybe even losing their “soul” like that may still be survivable. That’s especially true if you’re closely aligned with the Primal colors. If you’re lucky enough to defeat one, though, you also have to break their core, or your victory will have been pointless.

By the way, you don’t have to be particularly fearful of a newborn, weakwilled demon. They might have battle knowledge, but they’re just wimps with no experience, so even destroying their temporary bodies might be enough to kill them. They’re nothing worth losing sleep over.

Saying a weak ahh imp lvl lesser demon can exist in hell and resist the "nonexistent effects" the same way higher spiritual lifeforms do is just weird to me, especially when what higher SLFs are doing to resist is basically cancel the nonexistence with their high existence energy:

Nihilistic magic did its work by using its negative EP to annihilate matter and existence. If so, then saturating the area with positive energy would cancel the damage, reducing it to zero. As a giant, Daggrull was an enormous mass of magicules.

Even Nihilistic Parade, which contained Gadora’s full power, would be no match for him.

And pay close attention to this in the OP

Where does it say that the depths have regions where the deeper you go, the harder it is to exist? Let’s make a distinction between Hell and the Depths: those from Hell cannot survive in the Depths.

That much is correct.

That said, your own scan only says it’s an ever-expanding abyss, and pay attention to this.

You kinda missed this scan

The same bottomless darkness that had descended upon Zeranus a moment earlier—the power of the void, straight from the abyss—was about to envelop Vega next. It was just like how Zegion was able to open the “door” at will; if anything, Diablo was better at it than him. There was no longer any measuring him by numbers.
V21C4 OTL

The same energy found in the Depths will flow endlessly; here, it only speaks of energy flowing through the entire abyss, not that it becomes stronger the deeper you go so said layers you claim here are just nonexistent.

The fault with this argument is that the very first layer is "you go deep, it increases by 1 layer". It's like taking a step down a staircase. Why assume each step is uniquely different?

That would be reverse fallacy of incident without a valid justified cause

Finally, Occam’s razor holds that, when reaching a conclusion, one should always opt for the simplest interpretation. In this case, the simplest, best-supported, and least presumptuous interpretation is that these dudes have a good resistance to the erasure, rather than the extraordinary claim that “they were NEP from the start or that their information was NEP as saying that just cause heart cores exist in hell means that these heart cores are non-existent is a flimsy argument with no basis in fact.

The same applies to everything else I said about NEP 2 and its layers.


In short, I can see NEP 1 and one layer into it.

We (op and supporters) are not saying that anyone who can exist in hell is NEP. The higher SLFs do it cuz of resistance, but for lesser imps that should be impossible.

Or are we really making a god tier equal to a lesser imp in energy level?

Another way to prove this would be that when you travel between worlds, your soul and body are reconstructed. If you go from a physical one to a semi physical one, for example, your body is converted into semi physical form

He went into detail on what he knew so far. Essentially, our old planet was a purely physical world—a world free of magicules. The opposite of that is a purely spiritual world—one teeming with spirits, demons, angels, and other mystic life-forms; one full of mysterious and astonishing energy. The two were polar opposites but still retained some deep, important connections. Which led to this world—a world of chaos. An extremely unique entity—one that shared properties from both the physical and spiritual worlds. Its atmosphere was packed with magicules, allowing fairies, ghouls, and other spiritual life-forms to manifest themselves—something Yuuki figured out via his own experimentation.

Traveling from a physical world to this one meant that our own bodies had to be broken down once, then rebuilt in semi-physical form. That, he explained, was likely why we couldn’t go back to a purely physical world again.

Hmph. You do see transmigrants, on occasion. Their memories from the past are burned into their souls, due to a powerful will. There are some, indeed, who retain every memory of their past lives. But a transmigrant from another world… That is quite uncommon. A regular soul, by itself, would have no hope of surviving a journey across realms. It would dissolve midway, taking its memories with it. Someone retaining their full mind and becoming reborn as a monster out of pure magic… I cannot recall any past example of that. Quite…peculiar, indeed.

Soul

Post with 42 views. Soul

imgchest.com

Yet another way to show this is how Demons are literal darkness.
First off, what are Spirits? They're natural energy fragments. Spirit of Fire is Fire itself.

A little time passed. Eventually, little particles of light began to float down from the heavens, like a light snow. I couldn’t feel any sense of strength or will from it. Gail failed to notice any of this and continued praying.

His prayer had been answered not by a high-level elemental but by low-level ones with no sense of self. Fragments of natural energy. Sort of like magicules, but not really.

However, the magic in this example is so-called elemental magic. Spirit magic, where one borrows the powers of the spirits, is not affected by the image the caster places into their spell. It’s magic that utilizes the power of a spirit, something that must conform to the laws of nature. As a result, flames driven by spirit magic still consume oxygen and produce carbon dioxide. When I fought Ifrit, the Great Sage taught me a thing or two about steam explosions, and that trick only worked because Ifrit’s flames worked under similar natural laws. If it was elemental magic instead, using magicules to rewrite those laws, it may’ve been completely ineffectual.

Demons are basically Spirits but they are not among the 5 natural attributes , instead being born from the attribute of darkness.

Elemental spirits like Ifrit are bound by these physical laws… Or to put it another way, they’re the embodiments of the laws governing the world, and apparently there are eight types of these embodiments. The light and dark attributes are somewhat special, with light being derived from angels—and darkness from demons. The angels and demons I know of so far could be called elemental spirits, technically, if you trace their roots. Someone like Diablo could tell me more if I asked, but I’m not that interested, and it’s not like I could do much with the knowledge anyway.

They are fragments of GS of darkness, the same darkness that is the Non-existence of hell:

He had been willed into life eons ago, before heaven and earth were created. It was a simple coincidence. When Veldanava the Creator built seven seraphim out of the great elemental spirit of light, that also gave birth to those associated with the shadows behind them. Those were the Devil Lords, the seven Primal Demons derived from the great elemental spirit of darkness—and he was the first, the king of the underworld, the core realm of darkness.

He was an absolute ruler, darkness personified, from the moment he was born, an arrogant king who forced all other demons to do his bidding. His brothers and sisters, to him, were no different from the many other clans that existed. They fought for supremacy, jostled one another for position; two of the Primals even joined hands to challenge him. But he made them all bend to his will without experiencing a moment of pain.
V16 Epilogue OTL
---------------
He arose a long time ago, far back in the ages, before the creation of the world. His birth was a mere coincidence. Veldanava, the creator god, created the seven seraphim from the Great Spirit of Light, and the shadows were born. Those were the Seven Primordials—devil lords derived from the Great Spirit of Darkness.

He was the first of them, and he was the king who ruled the underworld, the world of darkness. Since his birth, his power had been absolute, the embodiment of darkness. An arrogant king who could control the demons at will. From his perspective, even his seven separate brothers and sisters of darkness were no more than like those of his many family members (dependents).
Slimereader

So it's pretty clear that demons are just darkness (nonexistence) itself. So the NEP2 argument remains unaffected. I believe the OP already clarified and proved that Darkness = nonexistence

 

[Mizuki67]

That much is correct.

You kinda missed this scan


The fault with this argument is that the very first layer is "you go deep, it increases by 1 layer". It's like taking a step down a staircase. Why assume each step is uniquely different?

That would be reverse fallacy of incident without a valid justified cause

Yeah 1 layer NEP definitely does not really add up imo

 

[Dereck03]

It even clarifies that Should are converted into energy which is equates to Void of nothingness

Nah, man, here the mention of “true void of nothingness” isn't referring to souls—it's referring to the place. I had a feeling it would be taken out of context, but I didn't address that in my first comment. In fact, it completely breaks away from any mention of the soul with a simple “dot.” Also, based on your interpretation, you assume it refers to souls, whereas the simplicity of the text indicates that it is talking about the depths and how they are formed—not that souls turn into a true void of nothingness.

He'll contains information yet it also converts souls (which are which contains information) into nothingness.
As the scans sure, information is written on information particles, which are something that are contained within all facets of the world, including energy

That's just existence erasure. You're trying to put a lot of things together to try to come up with something different.

You kinda missed this scan

That scan doesn't add anything new; I didn't even mention it for that very reason.

The thing is, hell doesn't have just "higher spiritual lifeforms". It also has obviously fodder demons, lesser demons etc.

Saying a weak ahh imp lvl lesser demon can exist in hell and resist the "nonexistent effects" the same way higher spiritual lifeforms do is just weird to me, especially when what higher SLFs are doing to resist is basically cancel the nonexistence with their high existence energy:

Of course, there aren't only “higher spiritual lifeforms,” but if you say that demons are darkness (non-existence), then you're already giving them a similar base resistance by default, since there is a hierarchy among demons.

So it's pretty clear that demons are just darkness (nonexistence) itself. So the NEP2 argument remains unaffected. I believe the OP already clarified and proved that Darkness = nonexistence

I’d like to point out that the fact that demons are darkness because they come from hell has little or nothing to do with my the NEP 2 issue here. In fact, it is still redundant because it is still treated as NEP 1 base.

Your argument relies on the idea that the non-existence of the Depth is something other than the basic existence (information) or basic non-existence (hell), since it is capable of erasing even those higher lifeforms that reside in hell, but as I mentioned before, all the scans and context only show that the void of the depths is the same thing that flows from the abyss into the depths and that it is much more aggressive than what is found in hell; there is nothing ontological about it being a different kind of nonexistence with some deep meaning that makes it conceptually superior or anything embellished to prove a point.

So yeah, NEP 2 is a no for me. The part I glossed over—that there’s more to hell than just higher spiritual lifeforms—might give you some extra resistance related to the erasure of existence/nonexistence, but that’s about it. If you don’t believe in a single layer in NEP 1, then just think of it as a higher degree of NEP 1 if that's fine with you, I don't think I'll change my mind, because, as I said, I remember discussing this before including other arguments as well but I do find the NEP valid this time, and maybe something else, but not NEP 2 or Infinite Layers.

Anyway, sleep, 3:51 in my country.

 

[Embers_of_Twilight]

I can see that there is very obvious conflating of context happening here, regarding the layers. From the scans talking about hell, there are only two confirmed states of hell - the surface and the depth.

The "depth of hell" is coined for the entirety of that "bottomless/ever expanding energy pool" or whatever you call it. And in simple example the scan says that one can resist being erased while being on the surface, when you reach the depths even that doesn't work. And this is where the context ends without anything to further extrapolate any more layer quantity.

After that it's the "more of the same" scenario that happens. With the depth being essentially bottomless that you can use it to a greater extent to erase more number of fundamental things rather breaking their layers of resistances (which only occurs between the difference of surface and depth).

For you to assert that there is a perpetual hierarchy there needs to be an additional step where it's clearly elaborated that the depth itself has similar differences, like how it's between the surface and the depth. Otherwise that's just a headcanon where you are trying to interpret the most favourable meaning out of that "bottomless" statement.

It's really not converse accident fallacy as the only middle ground that leads to a conclusion of infinite layers is that there exists a hierarchy. And against that argument we use occam's razor to go with most grounded and simpler interpretation with no unjust assumptions, which is that there being only two states (surface and depth) and thus only one layer when one goes from the shallow to depths.

@Astral_Trinity439

 

[Dereck03]

I can see that there is very obvious conflating of context happening here, regarding the layers. From the scans talking about hell, there are only two confirmed states of hell - the surface and the depth.

The "depth of hell" is coined for the entirety of that "bottomless/ever expanding energy pool" or whatever you call it. And in simple example the scan says that one can resist being erased while being on the surface, when you reach the depths even that doesn't work. And this is where the context ends without anything to further extrapolate any more layer quantity.

After that it's the "more of the same" scenario that happens. With the depth being essentially bottomless that you can use it to a greater extent to erase more number of fundamental things rather breaking their layers of resistances (which only occurs between the difference of surface and depth).

For you to assert that there is a perpetual hierarchy there needs to be an additional step where it's clearly elaborated that the depth itself has similar differences, like how it's between the surface and the depth. Otherwise that's just a headcanon where you are trying to interpret the most favourable meaning out of that "bottomless" statement.

It's really not converse accident fallacy as the only middle ground that leads to a conclusion of infinite layers is that there exists a hierarchy. And against that argument we use occam's razor to go with most grounded and simpler interpretation with no unjust assumptions, which is that there being only two states (surface and depth) and thus only one layer when one goes from the shallow to depths.

@Astral_Trinity439

Yeah, I didn't really addressed this issue after astral's reply to me, you couldn't have put it better; the sheer volume of information presented to try to prove something that is not what is claimed is overwhelming, so it's best to go with the most concise interpretation without assumptions.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Nah, man, here the mention of “true void of nothingness” isn't referring to souls—it's referring to the place.

Obviously

I had a feeling it would be taken out of context, but I didn't address that in my first comment. In fact, it completely breaks away from any mention of the soul with a simple “dot.” Also, based on your interpretation, you assume it refers to souls, whereas the simplicity of the text indicates that it is talking about the depths and how they are formed—not that souls turn into a true void of nothingness..

You are literally missing the point of the statement -_-

Life cannot exist in Hell; even the soul is destroyed and turned into energy. It was a true void of nothingness

What kind of energy would they be converted into in a void of nothingness that actively erases existing things

That's just existence erasure. You're trying to put a lot of things together to try to come up with something different.

And what does that said existence erasure come from? If comes from coming in face to face with the depths of hell, with an actively erasing Void.

That scan doesn't add anything new; I didn't even mention it for that very reason.

If at X depth you get +1 layer, and there is infinite depth, what does that means? It means there isn't just one layer!

Of course, there aren't only “higher spiritual lifeforms,” but if you say that demons are darkness (non-existence), then you're already giving them a similar base resistance by default, since there is a hierarchy among demons.

I don't recall being of the same nature gives you a resistance. Does being made of information give you resistance to something that erases concepts, for example?

I’d like to point out that the fact that demons are darkness because they come from hell has little or nothing to do with my the NEP 2 issue here. In fact, it is still redundant because it is still treated as NEP 1 base.

TI think there's a misunderstanding here. The base is still nep1, I never argued against that.

The thing is that said base has information, information of nonexistent things.

If the depth has no information at all due to it erasing information, that naturally makes it NEP2 (fundamentally different).

Your argument relies on the idea that the non-existence of the Depth is something other than the basic existence (information) or basic non-existence (hell),

This much is true

since it is capable of erasing even those higher lifeforms that reside in hell

This is incorrect. Higher lifeforms are used as resistance example. But in this context "higher lifeforms" refer to beings of the existing world (cardinal world) that are filled with life force

All that being said, using Nihilistic World effectively in battles against powerful foes was challenging. As mentioned earlier, the void energy was automatically canceled out by the life force of living things, so unless Testarossa cleared the land of creatures a little bit in advance, the size of the resulting world would be heavily stunted. If she wanted to point this skill at a powerful foe, she needed to keep unnecessary people or creatures from falling under its thrall, or else it’d be weakened beyond any usefulness. Between that and the way Nihilistic World didn’t discern between friend and foe, there were actually very few situations where it was helpful at all. It was extremely powerful, but mostly impractical—and even Testarossa, with all her intelligence, hadn’t figured out how to best use this power. However, Testarossa had obtained the ultimate skill Belial, Lord of the Underworld.

That was the spark allowing her to perfectly control this dangerously powerful ability. The synergistic effect was beyond imagination, granting Testarossa an absolute advantage that made her enemies seem pitiful by comparison. Moss, who had reached the number-two spot in Blanc’s force at one point, was fully aware of the terrifying lnature of this ability. Life cannot exist in Hell; even the soul is destroyed and turned into energy. It was a true void of nothingness, a Hell only the higher spiritual life-forms could endure…and once you got down to the depths, even those beings couldn’t survive. That was exactly the sort of realm Testarossa could summon with Nihilistic World.

Incidentally, Ultima’s specialty, the dark magic Nihilistic Vanish, was a spell thatbmimicked this “depths of Hell” mechanism. This, however, was the real thing, no mere imitation. It didn’t just work across a wider area; it could turn a whole region of the planet into a hellscape, making it easy to understand how dangerous this spell was. In the event (likely or not) Testarossa failed to control it, the void energy would flow out endlessly, and the world would be swallowed up by the ever-expanding abyss and collapse upon itself.

But weak ahh imp demons also exist in hell.
But those demons (which are supposed to be NEP1 (including aspect 4), and their sueorior demons such as Moss, would get erased by void summoned from the abyss

Moss knew that. With a single passing whim from Testarossa, death would come, and no one would be able to resist it. The speed at which this white space would expand could surpass even the speed of light. He had to escape immediately—as quickly as possible, before Testarossa unleashed her power. If caught in it, Moss would die instantly. Protecting Soka no longer mattered;

Moss would be helplessly sacrificed. What’s more, resurrection didn’t even seem possible. He had never been in a situation where he had to try, nor did he want to be, so the truth remained unknown…but to Moss, it didn’t matter either way. He was content to remain ignorant of that question until the end of his virtually eternal life.

but as I mentioned before, all the scans and context only show that the void of the depths is the same thing that flows from the abyss into the depths and that it is much more aggressive than what is found in hell; there is nothing ontological about it being a different kind of nonexistence with some deep meaning that makes it conceptually superior or anything embellished to prove a point.

Information erasure
There is a blatant scan that the void (of depths) erases information. The base of hell isn't the same however, as heart core (information structures) can still exist there.

The abyss can literal erase demons themselves which are supposed to be NEP1 (aspect 1, 2, 3, 4, 5) to the point where they can't resurrect.

So yeah, NEP 2 is a no for me. The part I glossed over—that there’s more to hell than just higher spiritual lifeforms—might give you some extra resistance related to the erasure of existence/nonexistence, but that’s about it. If you don’t believe in a single layer in NEP 1, then just think of it as a higher degree of NEP 1 if that's fine with you, I don't think I'll change my mind, because, as I said, I remember discussing this before including other arguments as well but I do find the NEP valid this time, and maybe something else, but not NEP 2 or Infinite Layers.

Anyway, sleep, 3:51 in my country.

I don't mind skipping the layers bit for the future, but I want to discuss thale bit about at least baseline NEP2. Goodnight to you tho, I'll wait (and will prolly be busy), so let's see how this turns out

I can see that there is very obvious conflating of context happening here, regarding the layers. From the scans talking about hell, there are only two confirmed states of hell - the surface and the depth.

The "depth of hell" is coined for the entirety of that "bottomless/ever expanding energy pool" or whatever you call it. And in simple example the scan says that one can resist being erased while being on the surface, when you reach the depths even that doesn't work. And this is where the context ends without anything to further extrapolate any more layer quantity.

After that it's the "more of the same" scenario that happens. With the depth being essentially bottomless that you can use it to a greater extent to erase more number of fundamental things rather breaking their layers of resistances (which only occurs between the difference of surface and depth).

There is no "more number of fundamental things". The depth that you talk about as the 1st layer already erases everything. Demons like Moss cannot resurrect from its erasure (scan above), whereas Moss is one of the strongest in hell, those who can do this:

But back to the topic. Newborn demons don’t get involved with factions, but once they evolve into Greater Demons, that’s when they get divided up by color and join one. Some demons are born with a color already associated with them; that’s often the case with reincarnated demons. Demons are immortal, so if they die, they just get reborn like that. Even these, however, can be destroyed if their core is shattered, I think. Demons are pretty tough, though, so maybe even losing their “soul” like that may still be survivable. That’s especially true if you’re closely aligned with the Primal colors. If you’re lucky enough to defeat one, though, you also have to break their core, or your victory will have been pointless.

For you to assert that there is a perpetual hierarchy there needs to be an additional step where it's clearly elaborated that the depth itself has similar differences, like how it's between the surface and the depth. Otherwise that's just a headcanon where you are trying to interpret the most favourable meaning out of that "bottomless" statement.

This again uses a reverse fallacy of incident.

To explain, let's assume the analogy of a staircase. You are at the top and want to go down. You take one step and with each step you are go down (depth increases). If X happened when you went from the base to the first step, why should we assume it can't happen again? What is the cause of the exception here?

You might have find an argument if He'll wasn't bottomless. But it IS bottomless, simply going to the depth compared to the base doesn't mean you reached the bottomless/infinitely deep end.

It's really not converse accident fallacy as the only middle ground that leads to a conclusion of infinite layers is that there exists a hierarchy.

And that said hierarchy is based on "going to the depth" in something that doesn't have an endpoint (is bottomless).

And against that argument we use occam's razor to go with most grounded and simpler interpretation with no unjust assumptions, which is that there being only two states (surface and depth) and thus only one layer when one goes from the shallow to depths.

@Astral_Trinity439

This once again ignores the fact that the abyss is literally bottomless. You don't suddenly arrive at the basement floor after going down one. Bottomless literally means it can keep doing down without end, without bottom.

So applying Occam's razor ultimately stems from an argument from ignorance

 

[Reiner04]

Sigh, sorry for being the fly in the ointment in this nice thread. I disagree with all those layers being proposed here and NEP 2. TL;DR of what I see as wrong with the OP.

1. The depths aren’t shown as a hierarchical structure in relation to NEP; again, because I saw the same “INFINITELY deep/bottomless” argument repeated many times, this doesn’t translate to a hierarchy, and from what’s been shown, it’s just a layer in NEP 1 again.

2. The fact that even spiritual life forms capable of surviving in hell cannot survive in the depths only shows that the void there is sufficient to overcome the innate resistance of those life forms. I recall having discussed this very argument before, though I don’t remember where and besides, this is a far-fetched interpretation

Refer to point one. Assuming that layers at greater depths are stronger simply because they are deeper is completely absurd, since, as I mentioned in point 1, there is no evidence to suggest that the deeper a layer is, the stronger its erasure effect, nor is there any proof that this is merely a void with a stronger erasure effect.

3. The whole point that hell contains nonexistent information is wacky. The OP explains that

But energy does not equate to nonexistence, and he emphasizes that:

Since, given the nature of Hell, only life forms with innate resistance can survive there, anyone else would die because they cannot withstand being in Hell. It’s like someone who can live in lava and someone who has no resistance to fire being thrown into the lava—nothing more than simple logic, but here it is extrapolated into something more “ontological,” I would say. The entire argument that hell is “nonexistent information” falls apart entirely, since it is an extrapolation from a simple NEP capable of erasing the soul—which itself contains information. That, in turn, neither creates nor produces what they are calling “nonexistent souls” or “nonexistent information”; it is merely a simple erasure of existence at those levels.

And pay close attention to this in the OP

Where does it say that the depths have regions where the deeper you go, the harder it is to exist? Let’s make a distinction between Hell and the Depths: those from Hell cannot survive in the Depths. That said, your own scan only says it’s an ever-expanding abyss, and pay attention to this.

The same energy found in the Depths will flow endlessly; here, it only speaks of energy flowing through the entire abyss, not that it becomes stronger the deeper you go so said layers you claim here are just nonexistent.

Finally, Occam’s razor holds that, when reaching a conclusion, one should always opt for the simplest interpretation. In this case, the simplest, best-supported, and least presumptuous interpretation is that these dudes have a good resistance to the erasure, rather than the extraordinary claim that “they were NEP from the start or that their information was NEP as saying that just cause heart cores exist in hell means that these heart cores are non-existent is a flimsy argument with no basis in fact.

The same applies to everything else I said about NEP 2 and its layers.


In short, I can see NEP 1 (for hell) and one layer into it (for Depths).

I share same opinion as dereck regarding NEP layers.

 

[Embers_of_Twilight]

There is no "more number of fundamental things". The depth that you talk about as the 1st layer already erases everything. Demons like Moss cannot resurrect from its erasure (scan above), whereas Moss is one of the strongest in hell, those who can do this:

You misunderstood what I implied. That "more number of fundamental things" is referring to the ability of characters being able to summon this energy endlessly to erase others. Which is what I meant that the depth is the entirety of that bottomless/endless energy pool that one can use to erase "more" number of fundamentals (greater scope), rather than more number of layers.

This again uses a reverse fallacy of incident.

To explain, let's assume the analogy of a staircase. You are at the top and want to go down. You take one step and with each step you are go down (depth increases). If X happened when you went from the base to the first step, why should we assume it can't happen again? What is the cause of the exception here?

This is not a converse accident fallacy as the rule of layers is exceptional to the surface and the depth of hell, nothing beyond that. You on the other hand using a composition fallacy by trying to assert that the layering mechanism applies to entirety of hell, rather than just the surface and depth, when in fact contextually that has never been shown to be the case.

I'll elaborate
The one specific layer of NEP only arises because we are shown that the erasure does overcome a resistance when one goes from shallow/surface to depth. If you intend to extend that logic onto further portions of the depth of hell then you need to show that there are beings who resist being inside the depths as well. And when those beings dive deeper in the depths they get erased as well.

Which obviously means that with each layer of depth, you need additional potrayals of resistances being overcome OR a statement that equalizes the process for the entire endless hell depth. You argue for infinite layers, yet I see no showcases of layers of resistances OR resistance bypass with further ascension within the depths.

Your entire stance for infinite layers is based on total presuposition and generalization of a statement that doesn't even apply or refer to it. You are only dwindling on baseless semantics, actually not even semantics but straight nothing burger.

You are arguing infinite layers man, even that for NEP. And for that your very first step is to rely on total generalized assumption ? That kind of lackadaiscal argument doesn't work brotha.

You might have find an argument if He'll wasn't bottomless. But it IS bottomless, simply going to the depth compared to the base doesn't mean you reached the bottomless/infinitely deep end.

And that said hierarchy is based on "going to the depth" in something that doesn't have an endpoint (is bottomless).

This once again ignores the fact that the abyss is literally bottomless. You don't suddenly arrive at the basement floor after going down one. Bottomless literally means it can keep doing down without end, without bottom.

So applying Occam's razor ultimately stems from an argument from ignorance

Well first off I never claimed that going to depth means you have reached the bottom. My argument is only that the entire endless pit is part of "depth" and when you reach that depth your resistance doesn't work..

Call back to my point of it just being "greater erasure" rather than layered erasure and that it's just "more of the same" scenario. You have an endless depth, whose entire portion has the same increased potency than the surface and it erases heart cores and is endless in "quantity" (if quantity applies to it at all).

Really it's just a geometric error being confused as layers.

Anyways, it's honestly baffling to me that you claim that I am being ignorant (which only applies to cases where someone is actively ignoring comprehensive evidence, something which is not present here - thus the fallacy doesn't apply), considering that you seem to be entirely oblivious to the extent of your unbased assumption for a case this significant, as seeing you have ultimately no argument other than ad infinitum repeat of "it's endless so it's infinite layers" based on some up-in-the-air semantical argument.

So yes, occam razors still stands.

 

[Embers_of_Twilight]

I kinda don't want to get into the NEP2 matter all that much. But just from whatever Astral proposed later on about depth of Hell not having <NEP information>, there is something to talk about. This is me assuming that NEP info is a thing in the verse.


Since hell converts postive info (souls) to nep info by erasure, then shouldn't that apply to the depth of hell as well ? Considering that is the place where the Heart cores (which are also information if I'm not wrong) get erased, thereby NEP info (from heart core) to exist at the depths as well ?

Then ultimately even at the depths there is still NEP info present. So even going with Astral's arg, the case there is no NEP info present in hell - therefore it's NEP2 doesn't work. And still falls under one layer of NEP1 erasure, no ?

 

[Embers_of_Twilight]

Call me sceptical (insanely) but, since the scans themselves don't say anything about the depth of hell being more empty/different than the surface (aside from its erasing potency), what's stopping anybody from saying that the depth of hell still contains NEP information/NEP1 (assuming it is a thing, since even for that I think that the NEP energy is just null energy, aside from specifically being information in a paradoxical non-existent form), but in a more potent form/layered NEP1. Which can still explain that it would erase more fundamental heart core to nep energy?

The surface hell (let's call it that) is potent enough to turn soul into null energy (baseline NEP1), and when you reach the depth hell the potency of that erasure just increases coz the null energy that is present there is of an even deeper information like Heart cores.

The above comment is continued from this