Tensura Web Novel Revision : Bring Back Rimuru's Non-Duality Type 1

[Mizuki67]

As you said, there will be a massive contradiction in the story. Thats Fuse-sensei for you.

Thats what Ramiris said

TL :

Ramiris said 'World'. When talking about the Great Spirit, Ramiris has said 'World' multiple times. The Great Spirit is not stated to be a multiversal concept by Ramiris.

So

the destruction of this one world (in chapter 248), made the Great Spirit also disappear. Because the Great Spirit will exist until the world ends (in chapter 62).

Yeah, Non-duality Type 1 for Rimuru

Its like talking to a wall at this point

 

[Voidnether]

I'd say we close this thread, the same situation as if someone made a CRT about scaling their character above H1-B. The nonduality stated wouldn't even benefit Rimuru in any point, we had this thread made by DontTalk and there's no conclusion for it now since everyone's busy with Ultima's Tiering System.

 

[Caster_Ren]

I agree with this thread, it's nonsense to say Veldanava isn't The Holy Spirit, i'll bring some scans and some explanation.

In Chapter 62, it was said that the power is full of emptiness.

Correction: Nothingness is full of power.

ここで、ラミリスに精霊についての講義を受けた。

　精霊とは…

”虚無に力が満ちている。

　これが聖霊である。大いなる聖霊は、ただ存在するだけの力の源。

　そんな中、光と闇、２柱の大精霊が生じた。

　世界が誕生した瞬間であった。

　しかし、世界はただ、漂うだけの存在である。

　光と影、陰と陽。互いに交わろうとしても叶わぬ存在。

　ある時、時の大精霊が生まれる。

　それは、光と闇の子としての存在。

　そして、世界は動き出した。

　動き出した世界は回る。目的も無くぐるぐると。

　その、生と死、一方通行に進む流れの中で。

　地・水・火・風・空という５柱の大精霊が誕生する。

　世界は、相互に干渉しあい、やがて安定する。

　これが、大いなる８柱の大精霊。

　そして、世界に光が満ち、闇に覆われて。

　新たな精霊達が誕生し、消えていく。

　生と死。

　世界がいつか終わりを迎えるその時まで……”

　ってね。

「つまり、最初に聖霊が存在し、世界と８柱の大精霊を生んだって事ね！」(Chapter 62)

English(DeepL):Here, I was given a lecture by Ramilis about spirits.

　A genie is...

"Power is full of emptiness.

　This is the Holy Spirit. The Great Holy Spirit is the source of power that just exists.

　In the midst of all this, two great spirits arose, the light and the dark, two pillars.

　This was the moment the world was born.

　The world, however, is merely a drifting existence.

　Light and shadow, yin and yang. Even if they tried to intersect with each other, they would not be able to do so.

　One day, the Great Spirit of Time is born.

　It is the child of light and darkness.

　And the world began to move.

　The world that began to move turns. It moves aimlessly in circles.

　In this one-way flow of life and death.

　The five great spirits of earth, water, fire, wind, and air are born.

　The world interferes with each other and eventually stabilizes.

　These are the eight great spirits.

　Then, the world is filled with light and covered with darkness.

　New spirits are born and disappear.

　Life and death.

　Until that time when the world will one day come to an end. ......"

　And then.

[So the Holy Spirit existed in the beginning and gave birth to the world and the eight Great Spirits!]

And, Turn Null is stated to be Void Energies.

"For me, it would be the void energies of『Void God Azathoth』's “Turn Null”. Said energy would be regulated from within the void space, it is then possible to "inject" that energy into my body.
As my body is mostly made up of Magic Essence, that means I would power up if there was more Energy." (Chapter 199).

Turn Null is said to be the energy needed to create the world.

The Ultimate and Supreme Ability――called『Turn Null』which produced the primordial energy needed to create a world. But in the end, it was impossible for him to recreate it.

Even if he could recreate that ability, he would only cause the energy to go amok and disappear if he didn’t create a world like Veldanava did.

After all, 『Turn Null』, as indicated by its name, was pure and super dense energy that destroyed everything. A super-tier level ability that allowed the destruction of the existing world and even the creation of a new world.(Chapter 247).

So, it's clear that Turn Null is the energy used to create the world by Veldanava, because Veldanava was stated to be alone in the Void and he created the world to relieve his boredom, but he lost Turn Null though.....

《Because a long time has passed,『Turn Null』has accumulated an enormous amount of energy. Although Veldanava is said to have lost『Turn Null』by creating the world, there’s no problem since Rimuru-sama has『Imaginary Space』. Because『Imaginary Space』has an infinite capacity, it can’t be filled up. However, it has already been filled with enough energy that even recreating the world tens of thousands of times is possible. Additionally, it’s possible to reproduce the memories of those connected to Rimuru-sama and intentionally create a world that’s nearly identical from before. What will you do?[5]》(Chapter 248).

For Veldanava, he was said to be alone in the Void. And he existed even before the world itself.

世界は残酷だが、全てを与えてくれる。

それが、ヴェルダナーヴァの創造した世界だ。

彼は、虚無の空間において独り、その孤独に耐えかねた。

だからこそ、退屈を紛らわせる為に世界を生み出したのだ。

そして世界には、ヴェルダナーヴァが望んだ通りの自由に行動し意思を主張する存在として、生命が誕生したのである。

長き時を経て遂に、自由意志と高い知性を持つ、魂の受け皿としての人間が生まれた。

ヴェルダナーヴァは歓喜した。

虚無の世界に退屈していたヴェルダナーヴァには、生命の活動を見るだけでも楽しいものだったが、人間という生き物の活動は感動的ですらあったから。

しかし、問題もあった。

知性を獲得した人間達は、互いに刺激し合い予想も出来ない行動を取る。

放置してしまえば、直ぐに相争い自滅への道を歩み始めてしまう。

幾つかの世界が生まれていたが、その全てにて似通った傾向が確認出来ていた。

それは、感情が原因である。

刺激を与え人をより大きく発展させる為に必要だと与えたものであったが、過度に大きくなりすぎた感情は他者の主張を排除する傾向にあるのだ。

考えが異なれば、様々な正義が生まれるように。

ヴェルダナーヴァは考えた。

こうした現象はある程度の必要悪と割り切り、魂の修練場として世界の有り方を容認しよう、と。

人を完全に管理してしまえば、争いはなくなるだろう。

しかし、感情が刺激される事もなくなり、平等だが自由意志の存在しないディストピアとなってしまう。

そんな世界は、ヴェルダナーヴァの望むものではない。

それから何度も実験し、人を望む姿へと発展させようと試みた。

数多の並列世界にて条件を細かく変更して、異なる進化を遂げさせたのだ。

そんな中、熟成された魂を持つ人間を選りすぐり、寿命のない魂の管理者としての天使と悪魔を生み出した。

全ての次元を魂が循環するように、システムを構築したのである。

過度な干渉は行わぬように限定し、世界の根幹が滅ばぬように監視者を任命した。

それが、ギィやラミリスにディーノといった者達なのだ。

俺が元いた世界には魔素が少なかった為に霊的な効果は見受けられないようだったけど、ひょっとすると監視者がいたのかもしれない。

それはまあ、今となってはどうでもよい話である。

ともかくとして、システムの構築は完了した。

イレギュラー的に発生した巨人などの討伐も終え、世界が安定したのだ。(Chapter 248).

DeepL:The world is cruel, but it gives us everything.

　That is the world Verdanava created.

　He could not bear the loneliness of being alone in the void.

　That is why he created the world to relieve his boredom.

　In the world, life was born as a being that could act freely and assert its will, just as Verdanava wished.

　Finally, after a long time, a human being was born as a receptacle for souls, with free will and high intelligence.

　Verdanava rejoiced.

　For Verdanava, who was bored with the world of nihilism, it was a pleasure just to see life in action, and the activity of the human creature was even inspiring.

　There was a problem, however.

　Humans who had acquired intelligence stimulated each other and behaved in unpredictable ways.

　If left unchecked, they would soon begin to fight with each other and start down the road to self-destruction.

　Several worlds had emerged, and all of them showed similar tendencies.

　Emotions are the cause.

　Emotions were given as necessary to stimulate and develop people to greater heights, but emotions that grew too great tended to exclude the claims of others.

　Different ideas can lead to different justifications.

　Verdanava thought.

　Let's accept this phenomenon as a necessary evil to some extent, and let's accept the way the world is as a training ground for the soul.

　If people were completely controlled, there would be no more conflicts.

　However, emotions would no longer be stimulated, and the world would become a dystopia where there is equality but no free will.

　Such a world is not what Verdanava wants.

　After that, he experimented many times, trying to develop people into what he wanted them to be.

　In many parallel worlds, conditions were changed in detail, and different evolutions were achieved.

　In the process, they selected people with matured souls and created angels and demons as managers of souls with no lifespan.

　A system was constructed so that souls could circulate through all dimensions.

　They limited the system so that it would not interfere excessively, and they appointed observers to ensure that the foundation of the world would not be destroyed.

　That is why I have appointed people like Guy, Ramilis, and Dino.

　In my former world, there was not much magical element, so there seemed to be no spiritual effect, but maybe there was a watchdog.

　But that's not important now.

　Anyway, the system is now complete.

　The defeat of the Titans and other irregular occurrences had been completed, and the world had stabilized.

Then, it's clear that Veldanava is The Holy Spirit, because he existed before even The World and The Great Spirits, why i said he existed before the Great Spirits? Because he existed before Demons, Angels, and Spirits and created them. Demons, Angels and Spirits are the fragments of Great Spirits, and were born in the moment where The Great Spirit Of Light and Darkness were born.

The existence of Demons, Angels, and Spirits is the same<additional evidence

In the ancient past, during the time when the Spirits of Light and Dark were born, receiving the blessing of light, the Angel’s Egg was laid, and receiving the wave of darkness the Demon’s Seed was sowed.

At the same time when Spirit of Time was born, the egg hatched, and the seed budded.

The two were born as a conceptual existence with a pure energy body without a physical body

That was the origin of Angels and Demons.(Chapter 114).

By the way, great spirits did not have ego–they were masses of energy.

The Fire Spirit was just an excess fragment of the entire mass.

Like a monster, this fragment gained self awareness.

And this self-aware fragment of pure energy thus became a monster.(Chapter 62).

And actually, the destruction of the world wasn't caused by Yuuki's Beelzebub, since Yuuki had died before he was able to destroy the Space-Time, which means the destruction of the world was purely caused by the disappearance of The Great Spirits.

《Yes. In this world, the flow of time has stopped. The spread of space had ceased as well, and in accordance with the Law of Entropy, this world has arrived at nothingness.》

Has arrived? You are talking as if you have watched it?

《That’s right. We were hurled to beyond space and time due to Yuuki’s attack. The lifespan of the planet has already ended a long time ago, but the collapse of the world hasn’t yet been reached. From that I deduced, Yuuki probably couldn’t destroy the world itself yet. When he was at the phase where he destroyed the celestial bodies as well as the space-time continuum, I presume that Yuuki’s lifespan had come to an end. However, I can’t judge whether his wish was fulfilled or not. After that, we wandered around as we drifted in the space and I witnessed the end of this universe.》(Chapter 248).

Therefore, Rimuru would get his Nonduality Type 1 back.

And Veldanava probably would get Nonduality Type 2, since he existed before the Multiverse and created them, which means he existed before every dualities in reality.

Because now we know that Great Spirits are only Universal Concepts and a world without Great Spirits would meet its end, then we can assume that every worlds have its own Great Spirits, including the Great Spirit Of Light and Darkness/Yin and Yang. Veldanava precedes all of them and therefore he would get Nonduality Type 2.

 

[CodeCCLL]

Bump

 

[Meli_Tempest]

Bump

 

[Catpija]

HEEEE'SSS BAAAAACCCCKKKKKK

 

[Catpija]

Agree FRA btw.

It wouldn't even matter if Veldanava is or isn't the Holy Spirit, he existed before the creation of world and therefore precedes the Great Spirits.

 

[Mizuki67]

Okay, this makes slight more sense than intended
If you argued about primodials being conceptual existences from GS

 

[Mizuki67]

Rimuru can get ND2

 

[TheprOO11]

I agree, in accordance to the arguments provided by caster

 

[Satanichia_Chlammy_Mafahl]

In Chapter 62, it was said that the power is full of emptiness.

"The power is full emptiness" isn't quite accurate. In the raw, there's a particle 'に' between Nothingness (虚無) and Power (力), indicating the nothingness serves as a location there. So, a better way to translate it would be "The nothingness is full of power" or alternatively "There is power in the nothingness".

If youre correct, then, it should be written like 力が虚無に満ちている, not 虚無に力が満ちている. That the former clearly indicates that power is nothingness; (力が虚無, Chikara ga kyomu), rather than the latter.

My translation:

　ここで、ラミリスに精霊についての講義を受けた。
Here, I received a lecture about Spirits from Ramiris.

　精霊とは…
Spirits refer to...

”虚無に力が満ちている。
“The nothingness is full of power.

　これが聖霊である。大いなる聖霊は、ただ存在するだけの力の源。
This is the Holy Spirit. The Great Holy Spirit is simply the source of power that exists.

　そんな中、光と闇、２柱の大精霊が生じた。
In such a situation, 2 Pillars of the Great Spirits, light and darkness, came into being.

　世界が誕生した瞬間であった。
It was the moment when the world was born.

　しかし、世界はただ、漂うだけの存在である。
However, the world is merely an existence adrift.

　光と影、陰と陽。互いに交わろうとしても叶わぬ存在。
Light and shadow, yin and yang. Existences that cannot intertwine even if they try.

　ある時、時の大精霊が生まれる。
At some time, the Great Spirit of Time was born.

　それは、光と闇の子としての存在。
Its existence was as a child of light and darkness.

　そして、世界は動き出した。
And then, the world began to move.

　動き出した世界は回る。目的も無くぐるぐると。
The world that began to move spins around. Meaninglessly around, around and around.

　その、生と死、一方通行に進む流れの中で。
Within that flow progressing in one direction, of life and death.

　地・水・火・風・空という５柱の大精霊が誕生する。
The 5 Pillars of the Great Spirits of Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, and Sky were born.

　世界は、相互に干渉しあい、やがて安定する。
The world, interfering with each other mutually, eventually stable.

　これが、大いなる８柱の大精霊。
These are the 8 Pillars of the Great Spirits.

　そして、世界に光が満ち、闇に覆われて。
And then, the world was filled with light and covered by darkness.

　新たな精霊達が誕生し、消えていく。
New other Spirits were born and disappeared.

　生と死。
The life and death.

　世界がいつか終わりを迎えるその時まで……”
Until the time when the world eventually meets its end...”

　ってね。
Something like this.

「つまり、最初に聖霊が存在し、世界と８柱の大精霊を生んだって事ね！」
“In summary, the Holy Spirit existed first and give birth to the world and the 8 Pillars of the Great Spirits, right!”

 

[Caster_Ren]

"The power is full emptiness" isn't quite accurate. In the raw, there's a particle 'に' between Nothingness (虚無) and Power (力), indicating the nothingness serves as a location there. So, a better way to translate it would be "The nothingness is full of power" or alternatively "There is power in the nothingness".

If youre correct, then, it should be written like 力が虚無に満ちている, not 虚無に力が満ちている. That the former clearly indicates that power is nothingness; (力が虚無, Chikara ga kyomu), rather than the latter.

My translation:

Thanks for the correction.

I've revised my argument, feel free to correct it.