The Elder Scrolls Revisions (Big ones)

[Ultima_Reality]

Sure, but he's still using the staff throughout the fight. And the fact that he can still use to attack you with it throughout the fight randomly proves it's not being used for a singular purpose. This really isn't a case that we should use as a direct scaling.

As far as I'm aware, Barbas only uses the staff's power during the specific attack I mentioned above, and when using physical strikes he just sticks to his blades. Given that, and what I said above, either the attack doesn't amp his durability, or it's not significant enough of an amp for we consider it a tier jump.

That's a completely different argument now. And sets a terrible precedent. This isn't something that would affect TES, you should make a separate thread discussing this, as this affects site standards.

Is it? All I'm saying is "Alduin devours these concepts to bring back the Dawn Era, and these concepts are currently accepted to have High 1-B power, and so he should scale to them." I don't see how it deviates from my original point, nor how it implies a change in standards.

 

[Ogbunabali]

As far as I'm aware, Barbas only uses the staff's power during the specific attack I mentioned above, and when using physical strikes he just sticks to his blades. Given that, and what I said above, either the attack doesn't amp his durability, or it's not significant enough of an amp for we consider it a tier jump.

How do you know that? The staff in general amps you, he doesn't have to attack with it, and him using for different things might've not been enough to provide him with invulnerability as much as it did the other guy, but either way we wouldn't scale an amp. Fact of the matter is, the purpose of the staff is to amp people, Barbas has the staff, and we see Barbas using the staff.

This is not a situation where we take scaling at face value.

Is it? All I'm saying is "Alduin devours these concepts to bring back the Dawn Era, and these concepts are currently accepted to have High 1-B power, and so he should scale to them." I don't see how it deviates from my original point, nor how it implies a change in standards.

Except he does not devour the concept? Where is that from?

 

[KongKing23]

• Jagar Tharn and the Eternal Champion go from High 4-C to 8-B

I think it is fair to scale them as 7-C.
They should be slightly above the mook who created a pocket dimension in the Eagle's Brook village or any Master Mage that can wipe out an army. Jagar Tharn is the elite battlemage of the whole Empire, so he should be stronger than your average Master Mages in the Colleges.

• The Vestige's justifications involving the Soulburst and scaling off of the Celestial Constellations should be removed from their profile. Their tier is otherwise up to discussion. If a downgrade is in order, then they'll go down to 4-A.

• All justifications in the current Low 2-C profiles that involve Barbas' manifestation scaling from the Dovahkiin should be removed. They'll instead scale off of the Vestige, and thus their exact tiers are up in the air as well.

Does the Vestige still have a Low 2-C ranking? Because The Vestige defeated Barbas.

• The Jills should be knocked down to Unknown.

I think that you should consult @Matthew_Schroeder on this.

• Alduin, The Dovahkiin and Miraak should be High 1-B scaling to the Eight Divines and the Princes.

Finally, I have been waiting for this. ESO Elsweyr described Alduin/Alkhan as the literal equal to Lorkhan/Shor.

 

[KongKing23]

• Aka, Lorkhan, Magnus and the other Et'Ada should be upgraded to Low 1-A

This means Daedric Princes and Aedras get upgraded as well?

 

[Lapsad]

I think it is fair to scale them as 7-C.
They should be slightly above the mook who created a pocket dimension in the Eagle's Brook village or any Master Mage that can wipe out an army. Jagar Tharn is the elite battlemage of the whole Empire, so he should be stronger than your average Master Mages in the Colleges.



Does the Vestige still have a Low 2-C ranking? Because The Vestige defeated Barbas.

I think that you should consult @Matthew_Schroeder on this.

Finally, I have been waiting for this. ESO Elsweyr described Alduin/Alkhan as the literal equal to Lorkhan/Shor.

Can you put a scan that has discribed ?

 

[KongKing23]

Can you put a scan that has discribed ?

Lore:The Wandering Spirits - The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages (UESP)

en.m.uesp.net

 

[Teezar]

The OP was too much to read but the final conclusions make sense.

 

[KongKing23]

If the Vestige gets downgraded from Low 2-C, then their new rating would be 4-A, since they can defeat the Celestial Mage's manifestation, who warped the Aetherean Archive into a pocket dimension containing a starry sky (And whose staff contained a similarly large pocket realm), and Arum-Khal, a dro-m'Athra who created his own plane of existence that, likewise, also had starry skies in it, and which collapsed upon his death.

The Vestige also killed Conoon Chodala who has the power of Vivec (solidly Low 2-C), Rada al-Saran within the Grayhaven, Barbas, Selene who easily defeated Vanus Galerion (destroyed the Great Shackle), Kaalgrontiid the Dark Aeon who briefly darkened the Moons.

The Vestige should stay where it is.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

How do you know that? The staff in general amps you, he doesn't have to attack with it, and him using for different things might've not been enough to provide him with invulnerability as much as it did the other guy, but either way we wouldn't scale an amp. Fact of the matter is, the purpose of the staff is to amp people, Barbas has the staff, and we see Barbas using the staff.

Not necessarily. In the second quote I posted in my previous message, Barilzar makes it pretty clear that it isn't a passive amp, and that you have to directly and consciously use the energy in the staff. And, case in point, Barbas explicitly doesn't do that at the start of the fight, like I said.

Except he does not devour the concept? Where is that from?

He kinda has to, I'd say, given how MK talks about his World-Eating being very literal in nature ("The whole of Nirn in his mighty gullet" and all that), and how the "reset" isn't really a time reset so much as just him returning things to a more chaotic, unstructured state, added to the fact that all of the spokes of the Wheel are necessary for it to not dissolve back into chaos. For instance, the Middle Dawn was described as "untime," which implies an absence of the domain of Akatosh, but also as "unplace," which in turn would be Kynareth's domain, and as "devoid of math," which would in turn be Julianos' domain.

Not to mention that we also have Cosmology implying Masser, Secunda and Nirn are the only planes of Mundus that are temporal and subject to mortality, which could be more evidence for Alduin directly affecting the Wheel's spokes instead of just yeeting them through a chain reaction like you seem to be implying. Granted, I do admit this can be disputed, considering that Mankar says "The bones of the wheel need their flesh" (In the form of mortal souls), which is somewhat corroborated by Jubal saying that mortal death can result in souls being recycled to the Plane(ts) of the Gods depending on your alignment.

I think it is fair to scale them as 7-C.
They should be slightly above the mook who created a pocket dimension in the Eagle's Brook village or any Master Mage that can wipe out an army. Jagar Tharn is the elite battlemage of the whole Empire, so he should be stronger than your average Master Mages in the Colleges.

Do we ever get information on how big Eagle's Brook is? The energy values for those tiers don't always coincide with their namesakes, so "Destroyed a town" feats are pretty vague on their own. Master mages wiping out armies, in this case, refers to them using fire spells to set everyone on fire, so, that's not that impressive a feat, AP-wise.

Does the Vestige still have a Low 2-C ranking? Because The Vestige defeated Barbas.

Depends on what we rate destroying Nirn at, which is still up to discussion.

This means Daedric Princes and Aedras get upgraded as well?

The Aedra (With the exception of Arkay) will have their second keys upgraded. The Princes won't, since they have no feats of significantly affecting Aetherius, and govern a plane of existence that's infinitesimal to it.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Not necessarily. In the second quote I posted in my previous message, Barilzar makes it pretty clear that it isn't a passive amp, and that you have to directly and consciously use the energy in the staff. And, case in point, Barbas explicitly doesn't do that at the start of the fight, like I said.

I don't see how the things you quoted imply that. The second quote just says that Barbas doesn't have too much to spare, hence why he isn't invulnerable.

He kinda has to, I'd say, given how MK talks about his World-Eating being very literal in nature ("The whole of Nirn in his mighty gullet" and all that), and how the "reset" isn't really a time reset so much as just him returning things to a more chaotic, unstructured state, added to the fact that all of the spokes of the Wheel are necessary for it to not dissolve back into chaos. For instance, the Middle Dawn was described as "untime," which implies an absence of the domain of Akatosh, but also as "unplace," which in turn would be Kynareth's domain, and as "devoid of math," which would in turn be Julianos' domain.

None of that even slightly implies concept, nor does it require it.

Not to mention that we also have Cosmology implying Masser, Secunda and Nirn are the only planes of Mundus that are temporal

Quote?

 

[Crabwhale]

I agree with everything in the OP aside from the High 8-C Companions and Alduin. The former seems to have been resolved, the latter I'll see how this debate goes.

 

[KongKing23]

The Aedra (With the exception of Arkay) will have their second keys upgraded. The Princes won't, since they have no feats of significantly affecting Aetherius, and govern a plane of existence that's infinitesimal to it.

What about Namira? She screwed up the Aedras badly and was powerful enough that Lorkhan even feared.

Master mages wiping out armies, in this case, refers to them using fire spells to set everyone on fire, so, that's not that impressive a feat, AP-wise.

At least, any master mage should be comparable to this.

 

[Qawsedf234]

As a question, is there a reason why we assume the lights in the pocket dimensions are legitimate stars rather than holes in reality like the ones in Mundas/Nirn?

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

As a question, is there a reason why we assume the lights in the pocket dimensions are legitimate stars rather than holes in reality like the ones in Mundas/Nirn?

For 1 no statements of them being holes
2. There are no gods or anyone that went out of their way to make holes in it

 

[Qawsedf234]

So then, there's no conclusive evidence that they aren't just holed to Atherius or however you spell the White IS.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

So then, there's no conclusive evidence that they aren't just holed to Atherius or however you spell the White IS.

Is a dimension created by them, u would need evidence of it just being a place on there

 

[FanSyst]

I agree with much of what has been stated, but I have doubts about Alduin's High 1-B upgrade.

 

[FanSyst]

Is a dimension created by them, u would need evidence of it just being a place on there

In such a vast universe where the conception of things are generally not what they seem, for example stars being holes in space or shadows being the reflection of other worlds. I think in this case it is normal to ask for evidence that what is perceived as a star really is.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Isn't water like past memories given form or something like that as well?

 

[Shmooply]

oh my ******* divines how did i miss this thread
Following for now, will read the proposed stuff when I have the time.

 

[FinePoint]

It does seem that current and discussed scaling's rely too heavily on assuming celestial objects are equivalent to their real-life counterparts, despite such a thing being usually contradictory to the established lore.

 

[Shmooply]

I actually don't understand why do we assume they are celestial objects in the first place. Unless I am forgetting something since I haven't read the lore in months, pretty much all of the stars are just holes left by Magnus and his followers, so I don't see how the dimensions that have stars 'n' stuff that were made by Camoran or the ayleid sorcerers are comparable to real life stars.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I don't see how the things you quoted imply that. The second quote just says that Barbas doesn't have too much to spare, hence why he isn't invulnerable.

Yeah, that's the point; Barbas wasn't using the energy on himself, so he wasn't made invulnerable by a shield like Chodala was, and from that it logically follows that the amp is not passive. Sotha Sil used the Sunna'rah on himself in the past, even, so it's pretty clear that the energy itself stays in the staff until actively drawn upon.

None of that even slightly implies concept, nor does it require it.

How does it not, though? I can't think of any way for Alduin to return things to the state they were in before the Wheel's spokes were a thing without eating the spokes to begin with. That's pretty much what the point boils down to. Your argument against it seems to be (Correct me if I'm wrong) more along the lines of "Alduin just resets time and the Aedra happen to be caught within that process," but I think I've already explained why that's not exactly the case.

Quote?

What are Masser and Secunda?

Masser and Secunda ('Jone' and 'Jode' in the Ehlnofex), the moons of Nirn, are the attendant spirits of the mortal plane. They are like the mortal plane in that they are temporal and subject to the bounds of mortality; in fact of this, the moons are dead and died long ago. The moons used to be pure white and featureless, but today their 'skin' is decaying and withering away. Their planes are likewise dying. Mortals perceive this as the moons being spheres with patches of their 'surfaces' completely eaten away.

This is only ever said to be the case with Nirn and its moons within that text, and is stated to be the reason for why the latter two are dead and visibly withering away as time passes, something which obviously doesn't apply to the other Plane(t)s (Unless you go by what Mankar says, at least), and ESO does bring that up again in the form of a Khajiit saying that Jone and Jode's movement is caused by Alkosh's weaving of the tapestry of time:

Online:Moon-Bishop Azin-jo - The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages (UESP)

en.m.uesp.net

Did Alkosh unleash Dragons on Elsweyr?
"Alkosh is our protector, walker! Though many have shamefully forgotten him, he ensures the steady movement of the moons. Without him, Jone and Jode would be locked in place and terrible things would slip through the Lunar Lattice!"

What about Namira? She screwed up the Aedras badly and was powerful enough that Lorkhan even feared.

Namira being a huge deal is mostly only a thing within the religion of the Reachmen, if I recall, and we don't exactly know how to reconcile it with the more mainstream cosmology of the verse for the moment, considering it literally has her as the absolute ruler of the spiritual world and Hircine of all people as the governor of Mundus.

As a question, is there a reason why we assume the lights in the pocket dimensions are legitimate stars rather than holes in reality like the ones in Mundas/Nirn

Mostly because the celestial bodies contained in those pocket dimensions both look and behave really differently from the ones we see from Nirn. Gaiar Alatar is in a perpetual sunset, the Shivering Isles have galaxies that move around in the sky, Apocrypha has nothing in its sky, and so on.

That does bring up a great point, though. As far as I'm aware, we don't really know if the idea of a "star" as a giant ball of plasma millions of kilometers wide actually exists in TES. The idea of a galaxy is a thing, at least, and globe models for Nirn do exist, but more conventional stars were never really alluded to, I think, unless you count Legends' trailer and the aforementioned galaxies as evidence of them.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Yeah, that's the point; Barbas wasn't using the energy on himself, so he wasn't made invulnerable by a shield like Chodala was, and from that it logically follows that the amp is not passive. Sotha Sil used the Sunna'rah on himself in the past, even, so it's pretty clear that the energy itself stays in the staff until actively drawn upon.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. I'm just saying that in general this is too unspecific of a case to apply direct scaling for. The invulnerability not being there is just the staff not having enough juice as it did with Chodala, etc.

How does it not, though? I can't think of any way for Alduin to return things to the state they were in before the Wheel's spokes were a thing without eating the spokes to begin with. That's pretty much what the point boils down to. Your argument against it seems to be (Correct me if I'm wrong) more along the lines of "Alduin just resets time and the Aedra happen to be caught within that process," but I think I've already explained why that's not exactly the case.

How does it yes? If you reset time all the way back to where it wasn't time, of course you're going to be in the "time" where time was chaotic or not existing none of that requires eating a concept, nor does it imply it either. He doesn't need to eat the spokes, no, just need to turn them back in time before they were spokes in the first place.

This is only ever said to be the case with Nirn and its moons within that text, and is stated to be the reason for why the latter two are dead and visibly withering away as time passes, something which obviously doesn't apply to the other Plane(t)s (Unless you go by what Mankar says, at least), and ESO does bring that up again in the form of a Khajiit saying that Jone and Jode's movement is caused by Alkosh's weaving of the tapestry of time:

That quote is specifically mentioned in the question about the moons and it compared it to Nirn in the fact that they are dying, so not sure how you followed that up with no other planet is ever affected.

Also

"Alkosh is our protector, walker! Though many have shamefully forgotten him, he ensures the steady movement of the moons. Without him, Jone and Jode would be locked in place and terrible things would slip through the Lunar Lattice!"

This is the same case with the Aedric planets too. Mannimarco when he ascended to the rank of a god, he began rotating to block Arkay's light. Dwemer/Alyeid orreries have the other planets rotating too.

Plus it's weird you imply they aren't subject to time

When Akatosh forms, Time begins, and it becomes easier for some spirits to realize themselves as beings with a past and a future. The strongest of the recognizable spirits crystallize: Mephala, Arkay, Y'ffre, Magnus, Rupgta, etc., etc.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

In such a vast universe where the conception of things are generally not what they seem, for example stars being holes in space or shadows being the reflection of other worlds. I think in this case it is normal to ask for evidence that what is perceived as a star really is.

u know there also exist stars and in balls of flaming gas on the verse too right?

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Isn't water like past memories given form or something like that as well?

those are the oceans which have a lot of info on them, not all water is that

 

[Keeweed]

I’m late and haven’t read most the thread after the op, but the high 8-C and 8-B feats were supposed to be nuked. High 8-C used an inflated size and the thread to remove it went completely through. We were just waiting on a recalc of the feat.

The 8-B Eternal Champion should be nuked because fire no longer scales to physical ap and the champion’s ap feat is entirely through fire.

 

[Shmooply]

bump

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. I'm just saying that in general this is too unspecific of a case to apply direct scaling for. The invulnerability not being there is just the staff not having enough juice as it did with Chodala, etc.

Not really, considering Barbas actually stole even more of Vivec's energy just before he got his hands on the staff. And that aside, I think Sotha Sil being able to use it on himself is pretty straightforward proof that the juice stays in the Sunna'rah until it's used, instead of the power instantly being suffused into your body. In that case, I think the only thing contradicting Barbas scaling to the Vestige is the vague possibility that he was already amping himself at the start of the boss fight, which is what'd require evidence to begin with.

How does it yes? If you reset time all the way back to where it wasn't time, of course you're going to be in the "time" where time was chaotic or not existing none of that requires eating a concept, nor does it imply it either. He doesn't need to eat the spokes, no, just need to turn them back in time before they were spokes in the first place.

I can agree with that, but the issue is that we aren't taking Alduin's eating of the Kalpa to be just a time reset to begin with. We're saying he literally eats the world, and thus returns it to the state it was in before its creation, which is why it's currently deemed to be AP and not hax in the first place. If we extend that to the Mundus as a whole and not just Nirn, then that means he devours the Mundus, and by extension the Aedra as well. Your argument seems to hinge on the notion that what he does is just turning back time, when I already explained why that's not true at all.

This is the same case with the Aedric planets too. Mannimarco when he ascended to the rank of a god, he began rotating to block Arkay's light. Dwemer/Alyeid orreries have the other planets rotating too.

Fair enough on that.

Plus it's weird you imply they aren't subject to time

"Time" as a concept exists throughout the entire Aurbis, and is what allowed the Et'Ada to erupt from the original chaos of possibility to begin with. Mundus is only special in that regard because time in it is linear and exact due to the Aedra's influence, instead of fractured and multi-faceted.

High 8-C used an inflated size and the thread to remove it went completely through. We were just waiting on a recalc of the feat.

Nice, then.

The 8-B Eternal Champion should be nuked because fire no longer scales to physical ap and the champion’s ap feat is entirely through fire.

I'd argue that shouldn't really apply to TES, anyway, considering all magic in the verse stems from tapping into the energy reserves comprising your Animus to alter reality. It'd still be reflective of their overall magical power, just expressed in a specific way.

 

[Keeweed]

Is there any reason that Magic power should scale to the EC physically. Last I checked a big plot point in the Elder Scrolls is that mages kill themselves constantly with their own spells because the spells are vastly stronger then themselves (like apprentice mages vaporize themselves all the time)

 

[Ultima_Reality]

You can tank attacks from Jagar at the end, so, I'd say it does scale to Durability, yeah.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Not really, considering Barbas actually stole even more of Vivec's energy just before he got his hands on the staff. And that aside, I think Sotha Sil being able to use it on himself is pretty straightforward proof that the juice stays in the Sunna'rah until it's used, instead of the power instantly being suffused into your body. In that case, I think the only thing contradicting Barbas scaling to the Vestige is the vague possibility that he was already amping himself at the start of the boss fight, which is what'd require evidence to begin with.

Stealing more energy doesn't seem relevant?

The staff can obviously be used in multiple ways, that doesn't subtract from the point either.

staff has the power to amp

Barbas has the stuff

the staff is used to power up machines so it doesn't have full power juice

Barbas explicitly uses the staff's power throughout the fight

It isn't explicitly stated that Barbas is amped, but it isn't explicitly stated that he isn't either. That alone is enough to make it not reliable to scale outright. Not to mention that we explicitly know the staff has enough power left to be used offensively, assuming Barbas is not using the staff as it's intended purpose that would help him greatly throughout the fight seems weird.

I can agree with that, but the issue is that we aren't taking Alduin's eating of the Kalpa as to be just a time reset to begin with. We're saying he literally eats the world, and thus returns it to the state it was in before its creation, which is why it's currently deemed to be AP and not hax in the first place. If we extend that to the Mundus as a whole and not just Nirn, then that means he devours the Mundus, and by extension the Aedra as well. Your argument seems to hinge on the notion that what he does is just turning back time, when I already explained why that's not true at all.

"World" is an extremely vague term here. We only explicitly know that Alduin eats Nirn ("in his mightly gullet") and that he messes with time. That's about it.

Your argument changed a couple of times through here, but, if I'm not mistaken, your two primary arguments were that Alduin eats Mundus based on Fyr saying "current" once that wasn't in any way connected to a Kalpa talk, which I've already proven why it being differently ordered doesn't imply that Alduin eats it. And that Alduin eats the concept of time, which is not only contradicted and goes against your current argument now, it's not implied nor needed for Alduin's eating.

"Time" as a concept exists throughout the entire Aurbis, and is what allowed the Et'Ada to erupt from the original chaos of possibility to begin with. Mundus is only special in that regard because time in it is linear and exact due to the Aedra's influence, instead of fractured and multi-faceted.

Don't see what this has to do with what I said. The quote I linked was specifically about liner time as well.

 

[Keeweed]

You can tank attacks from Jagar at the end, so, I'd say it does scale to Durability, yeah.

But that shouldn’t scale because Magic is elemental and elemental damage (like ice, fire, and lightning) doesn’t scale to physical durability either.

 

[FanSyst]

You can tank attacks from Jagar at the end, so, I'd say it does scale to Durability, yeah.

This seems to be a game mechanic.

 

[KongKing23]

If anything, I suggest that we should keep Jagar Tharn at his place not changing anything. That guy was among the elites of the Empire, so it should be understandable if he can create dimensions. In fact, he was involved with the Umbra Keth crisis for a while and knew the potential of Shadow Magic.

If it has been stated by the game where he created the dimension, then we should acknowledge the game's statement as fact.

 

[Keeweed]

I believe Jagar’s 4-C feats comes from the game rather than an out of game book. But I doesn’t matter, he wouldn’t scale to it physically because it’s not his power.

Also the 8-B feat would still need to be downgraded anyways because the EC still would scale to it.

 

[Stillwinston]

Yeah EC's tier 8 thing was meant to be nuked iirc, surely there's something we could pull out for them tho would hate to slap the OG protagonist with Unknown ngl

 

[Sasukesolos]

Yeah, that's the point; Barbas wasn't using the energy on himself, so he wasn't made invulnerable by a shield like Chodala was, and from that it logically follows that the amp is not passive. Sotha Sil used the Sunna'rah on himself in the past, even, so it's pretty clear that the energy itself stays in the staff until actively drawn upon.


How does it not, though? I can't think of any way for Alduin to return things to the state they were in before the Wheel's spokes were a thing without eating the spokes to begin with. That's pretty much what the point boils down to. Your argument against it seems to be (Correct me if I'm wrong) more along the lines of "Alduin just resets time and the Aedra happen to be caught within that process," but I think I've already explained why that's not exactly the case.





This is only ever said to be the case with Nirn and its moons within that text, and is stated to be the reason for why the latter two are dead and visibly withering away as time passes, something which obviously doesn't apply to the other Plane(t)s (Unless you go by what Mankar says, at least), and ESO does bring that up again in the form of a Khajiit saying that Jone and Jode's movement is caused by Alkosh's weaving of the tapestry of time:

Online:Moon-Bishop Azin-jo - The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages (UESP)

en.m.uesp.net

Namira being a huge deal is mostly only a thing within the religion of the Reachmen, if I recall, and we don't exactly know how to reconcile it with the more mainstream cosmology of the verse for the moment, considering it literally has her as the absolute ruler of the spiritual world and Hircine of all people as the governor of Mundus.


Mostly because the celestial bodies contained in those pocket dimensions both look and behave really differently from the ones we see from Nirn. Gaiar Alatar is in a perpetual sunset, the Shivering Isles have galaxies that move around in the sky, Apocrypha has nothing in its sky, and so on.

That does bring up a great point, though. As far as I'm aware, we don't really know if the idea of a "star" as a giant ball of plasma millions of kilometers wide actually exists in TES. The idea of a galaxy is a thing, at least, and globe models for Nirn do exist, but more conventional stars were never really alluded to, I think, unless you count Legends' trailer and the aforementioned galaxies as evidence of them.

I agree considering it’s been mentioned in lore that the celestial bodies we see are limited to the mortal perception , inability to comprehend them

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Hm. Thread's been pretty dead. Well, I can probably be more active in here now, anyway, so:

It isn't explicitly stated that Barbas is amped, but it isn't explicitly stated that he isn't either. That alone is enough to make it not reliable to scale outright. Not to mention that we explicitly know the staff has enough power left to be used offensively, assuming Barbas is not using the staff as it's intended purpose that would help him greatly throughout the fight seems weird.

I don't have to prove the negative statement ("Barbas wasn't amped") here, though, especially since people who wield the Sunna'rah being amped by it is not the default, so the burden of proof falls on you here. A vague possibility of something being the case is no real reason to eschew scaling entirely. Not to mention that I do acknowledge that Barbas used the power of the Staff, as you can gather, just not at the very start of the fight, during which he was fighting without it.

"World" is an extremely vague term here. We only explicitly know that Alduin eats Nirn ("in his mightly gullet") and that he messes with time. That's about it.

Your argument changed a couple of times through here, but, if I'm not mistaken, your two primary arguments were that Alduin eats Mundus based on Fyr saying "current" once that wasn't in any way connected to a Kalpa talk, which I've already proven why it being differently ordered doesn't imply that Alduin eats it. And that Alduin eats the concept of time, which is not only contradicted and goes against your current argument now, it's not implied nor needed for Alduin's eating.

First paragraph is a very watered down way of putting it, given that Alduin is very directly referred to as the "Time-Eater," and Paarthurnax refers to the end of the current Kalpa as being the end of time, which in turn is corroborated by MK's talk about the Dawn Era being what follows his world-eating. Saying he just "messes with time" is pretty blatantly downplaying what he does.

Not to mention that Fyr referring to anything else here is very, very unlikely, given that Mundus having "current" or "past" incarnations is not something that remotely alludes to anything else in the setting.

My argument remained very constant throughout this discussion, I believe, save for me bringing up the statement regarding the Moons' connection to time and mortality (Which I already dropped as you can see above), as you can see by the fact I talked about the whole deal with Alduin returning things to the Dawn Era in the OP, too. And, for the matter, you haven't really proven anything to that effect, no, beyond saying that what Alduin does is just turning back time, which I already explained is not the case, and which is not even something we acknowledge in the current profiles.

And I don't see how Alduin eating the concept of time across the Mundus is contradicted, either.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Hm. Thread's been pretty dead. Well, I can probably be more active in here now, anyway, so:


I don't have to prove the negative statement ("Barbas wasn't amped") here, though, especially since people who wield the Sunna'rah being amped by it is not the default, so the burden of proof falls on you here. A vague possibility of something being the case is no real reason to eschew scaling entirely. Not to mention that I do acknowledge that Barbas used the power of the Staff, as you can gather, just not at the very start of the fight, during which he was fighting without it.


First paragraph is a very watered down way of putting it, given that Alduin is very directly referred to as the "Time-Eater," and Paarthurnax refers to the end of the current Kalpa as being the end of time, which in turn is corroborated by MK's talk about the Dawn Era being what follows his world-eating. Saying he just "messes with time" is pretty blatantly downplaying what he does.

Not to mention that Fyr referring to anything else here is very, very unlikely, given that Mundus having "current" or "past" incarnations is not something that remotely alludes to anything else in the setting.

My argument remained very constant throughout this discussion, I believe, save for me bringing up the statement regarding the Moons' connection to time and mortality (Which I already dropped as you can see above), as you can see by the fact I talked about the whole deal with Alduin returning things to the Dawn Era in the OP, too. And, for the matter, you haven't really proven anything to that effect, no, beyond saying that what Alduin does is just turning back time, which I already explained is not the case, and which is not even something we acknowledge in the current profiles.

And I don't see how Alduin eating the concept of time across the Mundus is contradicted, either.

I agree with this.