The last DMC thread

[Tony_di_bugalu]

@Tony_di_bugalu the vergil scan doesn't sound like something he'd have to name, just that he'd need to give them the ability to speak their names again, cause vergil doesn't know their names but actively gave them the ability to speak their names again, this doesn't sound like an unintentional passive ability for dante and vergil if the latter had to actively make them use their names.

I already explained that several times and Gilver up there too.

The first scan is a bit vague, looks like changing his name from Tony to Dante acts like a limiter thing than just him swapping names by accidentally naming them something, and the second one is just Yamato's work if it's supposed to be Nero coming out of the savior, that has nothing to do with dante naming Nero. Yeah, said act is them granting them their names or removing said names, nothing about it literally saying it by complete accident and their names are restored.

There is nothing vague, he just went from Tony a human to Dante a half Demon. You think of it as a limiter because as Dante he gained the power of a Demon which he lacked as a human and Gilver up there explained more about it.

Second is the Yamato, the novel explicitly said how Nero and the savior became a unique existence or in other words just the savior. There is no more Nero as he is the savior as much as any other piece of him is. Yamato took that and brought Nero back from the savior, instead of 1 there are now 2. But still he didn't know know his name, which is when Dante comes in and says his name.

The scan straight up says how they only need to intend to do that shit and just look at the examples: Dante as a kid was told to forget who he was and became Tony without even knowing what he really did, Tony needed to shed his human shell and became Dante once again, Vergil went only with the intention to name those demons and they got their names back after he allows it, Arkham tells Dante that he only needs to "do it/mean it" for it to work. Dante himself is wary of doing anything after he is informed of this and ask Arkham what's gonna happen when he does because even his dumb ass realized shit can go wrong from there.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Sevil Natas you do realize that not every single demon in the series turns into a devil arm right? Especially the higher tier demons since we've had them die without any process of devil arm transformation, also the problem with the reasoning is it devolves into assumptions at this point, especially with ALL of his aspects of being getting removed including his name when at no point in the novels is his name ever stated to be removed.

@GilverTheProtoAngelo So only from low tier to high tier demons that would have these higher tier resistances, is there any scans whatsoever that indicate that the resistances would get stronger by just being stronger because I don't recall anything like that being said in the series.

That's a complete false equivalency, there's a difference between passive shit that just happens with characters no selling it, and granting names, something never shown to be a passive trait for the sparda heritages and assuming dante just automatically grants names all willy nilly.

Oh ok, so asking for proof on evidence that the soul is gone (an important part of a demon's existence btw) is me being short sighted, good to know the discussion is getting somewhere and not just resulting in ridiculous claims.

If Tony explained that it's not a passive ability then why the **** is he arguing that Dante nonchalantly saying Mundus somehow granted Mundus' name back? That kind of shoots your argument in the foot here.

@Tony_di_bugalu So he changed his name back and intentionally? Where exactly is the proof that it's something he does passively by mentioning someone's name?

Except Yamato was the one who did all the work for getting Nero back, Dante saying his name doesn't mean much here when it's just him calling Nero to help him out from the inside.

So he's wary of naming demons but is completely fine with naming Mundus who won in the alternate universe... Yeah that totally doesn't contradict what Dante learned in the manga at all and makes him more incompetent.

 

[Sevil Natas]

you do realize that not every single demon in the series turns into a devil arm right? Especially the higher tier demons since we've had them die without any process of devil arm transformation

yes. cus in those cases they just get killed. there wouldnt be any soul to show there. i dont understand what you're saying here.
you seem to forget that a demons true self is its soul. when they die their soul would have to go aswell

also the problem with the reasoning is it devolves into assumptions at this point, especially with ALL of his aspects of being getting removed including his name when at no point in the novels is his name ever stated to be removed.

except it doesn't. his soul was not seen by dante. dante didnt recognize him when he should've been able to. dante couldnt sense his soul when he could have. the writers not even acknowledging its existence when it's supposed to be his true substance would only net this conclusion. that his soul didnt exist as he was a void of nothing at the time

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

@Tony_di_bugalu So he changed his name back and intentionally? Where exactly is the proof that it's something he does passively by mentioning someone's name?

Himself as a kid, Nero, the sins. Proof we have posted several times.

Except Yamato was the one who did all the work for getting Nero back, Dante saying his name doesn't mean much here when it's just him calling Nero to help him out from the inside.

No one is denying the work Yamato did, Dante himself said Yamato was the only chance he had at saving Nero (from what he was at that point), after Yamato did what it was supposed to do Dante gave what Yamato brought from the savior a Name, this being Nero.

Let me explain one last time.

Nero had become a unique existence with the savior, there was no Nero after that, no more 2 only 1. What Yamato did was separate savior into 2 individual beings, the savior and whatever was left of Nero which, as you saw in the scans, is just a soul without a name, then comes Dante and calls his name, Nero remembers who he is, regenerates and grabs Yamato to escape.

So he's wary of naming demons but is completely fine with naming Mundus who won in the alternate universe... Yeah that totally doesn't contradict what Dante learned in the manga at all and makes him more incompetent.

He is just told that his brother is naming Demons for some unknown reason and that he has the power to do the same, of ******* course he is gonna be wary of that. Now this is... what? 20 years later? That information won't be in his mind at that point nor is it relevant to him. Moreover he comes from a world where Mundus has a name, there would be nothing weird for him to Name Mundus here.

As for Naming Mundus it doesn't do anything to the void besides giving it a concept. Power, as you know, this Void had in spades because of what it had become.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

That information won't be in his mind at that point nor is it relevant to him

That's literall headcanon, this whole name-hax is going completely out of proportions here. We are aware of its existence, but giving how common and normal names are, we can't just throw the name-hax whenever someone calls something by its name in the series, that literally takes the ability and wank it in NLF through the whole series. Nero's case may be an example of its usage but it is, at its best, completely irrelevant to this discussion, if Dante used or not with him doesn't make Void Mundus' case any better, since it (Novel 2 case) lacks any actual description of what hax-naming something does, (besides the name "Mundus" appearing after some people calling him just "the demon king" or "the void", titles that are well-fitting for him at that moment), while DMC4 has a few good arguments going on with it (Yamato's properties are solid for the case since it does mess things up at conceptual level, however Novel 2 doesn't have that help)

I 100% disagree with the name-hax being used on VM case

 

[Theglassman12]

@Sevil Natas We never see Phantom's soul vanished when he died in 1 as opposed to Griffin so it's not really that consistent in the visual sense.

If we have any statements that Dante was unable to sense his soul then I can see that, but we don't.

@Tony_di_bugalu That's not passives, I'm asking for proof it's done passively without them even realizing it

How is that proof that his name came back though? Yamato separated him and his memories were fuzzy, Dante calling out to Nero saying he's missing out on the fun doesn't exactly mean much here unless Dante's actively trying to activate his name like he did to himself which is explicitly stated.

Why the **** would the names part be so irrelevant to a demon hunter? Do you understand how stupid that sounds? A demon hunter who knows and has the ability to grant demons their names, something that's the source of their power, suddenly forgets that's one of the most important aspects of a demon, and just nonchalantly grants the ******* Demon King his name back in a timeline where his father failed, do you understand how ******* ******** Dante would have to be to make a decision that stupid? It would make Goku giving a senzu bean to Moro look like a smart decision.

 

[Sevil Natas]

We never see Phantom's soul vanished when he died in 1 as opposed to Griffin so it's not really that consistent in the visual sense.

huh? what are you talking about? we see Neither of their souls in the cutscenes of their death cus they died. their soul would be gone lol

If we have any statements that Dante was unable to sense his soul then I can see that, but we don't.

he was unable cus he was not able to figure out who he is despite fighting him before.

 

[Theglassman12]

You do see Griffin's soul before his body vanished though, hell you can target his soul in the boss fight too.

That doesn't mean his soul is nonexistent, just that voids are new to dante.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Bumperoni

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Reinhardt...
After hiw many years is that a pfp change?

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Reinhardt...
After hiw many years is that a pfp change?

Pretty sure it has been since 2019

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I agree with the first part of the OP (Information Type 2), but I'm neutral on the second part about Void Mundus as I'm not well versed in the Nonexistent Physiology stuff but I'm leaning towards agreeing.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Bumpeteroni

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Bamp

 

[Sevil Natas]

You do see Griffin's soul before his body vanished though, hell you can target his soul in the boss fight too.

even if it is. that wouldnt matter much cus when they survive. souls are always consistently shown on screen
and 1 case where they show the soul being destroyed aint going to change that

That doesn't mean his soul is nonexistent, just that voids are new to dante.

wat? but the whole point of your argument is that his soul wouldnt be affected by the void. if that is the case dante should be able recognize mundus yet he doesn't . it's pretty obvious that the void encompasses all of mundus. otherwise dante wouldnt even need to swing at the void itself to win. he'll just attack his soul directly.

 

[Theglassman12]

It does change it, Phantom died without his soul being shown when Griffin did, meaning that the demons dying doesn't always show the soul being nuked, which is kind of important.

Yeah, his soul still existing but with a void being, which makes it not easy for Dante to get the hang of it since Voids are something he never encountered in the series, wasn't until after he started fighting that he realized it's Mundus.

 

[LordGinSama]

I'll comment on this later after work but I typically trust Gilver regarding DMC.

 

[Omegasomeguy]

I agree on this, also, off-topic but i've seen many people talking about a lot of PoC scans but i can't find them (Not the known ones like the ones explaining the soul, name, etc) can anyone send me ALL PoC scans? I kind of need them

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Yeah, his soul still existing but with a void being, which makes it not easy for Dante to get the hang of it since Voids are something he never encountered in the series, wasn't until after he started fighting that he realized it's Mundus.

The idea that Dante is confused because of a body that doesn't exist while a soul is there is completely stupid. It literally makes no difference from any other random Demon that exist as a ******* shadow or a ghost because the body is non existent.

You are basically saying Dante is fighting a ghost and he is confused because reasons

 

[Theglassman12]

except a ghost and a void aren't the same thing here, Voids aren't something Dante has ran into before so he'd be getting used to this new type of foe, which again doesn't prove that he lacks a soul when he can recognize it's Mundus.

 

[LordGinSama]

Is it really a true void if Mundus is the universe itself? Doesn't really make much sense to me personally speaking. The way the novel scans explain it makes me pretty confused given that it's conflicting with him being nonexistent yet him obviously still existing in some type of sense.

 

[Deadguy]

Is it really a true void if Mundus is the universe itself? Doesn't really make much sense to me personally speaking. The way the novel scans explain it makes me pretty confused given that it's conflicting with him being nonexistent yet him obviously still existing in some type of sense.

He isn't the universe itself but more so the source of energy that sustains the realm that without him the world will collapse hence why the novel referred him as the nexus of the demon realm

 

[LordGinSama]

He isn't the universe itself but more so the source of energy that sustains the realm that without him the world will collapse hence why the novel referred him as the nexus of the demon realm

Ah so it's more akin to abstract / conceptual manipulation then?

 

[Deadguy]

Ah so it's more akin to abstract / conceptual manipulation then?

I mean I don't know how we treat being a source of energy in this wiki but I guess it will at best it give you incorporeality

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

except a ghost and a void aren't the same thing here, Voids aren't something Dante has ran into before so he'd be getting used to this new type of foe, which again doesn't prove that he lacks a soul when he can recognize it's Mundus.

You are saying that Mundus is "void" with a soul, that's what a ghost is, a soul with a nonexistent body. It makes 0 difference how you wanna word it in the end you are saying the exact same thing.

A void is a completely empty space, you can't call something a void if there is something there, something like a soul which is a very real thing in DMC.

If we take this logic then him running into a "void" would be irrelevant as hell because there is a ******* soul there, one that he by all accounts should be able to see and sense from a mile away and neither the novel nor Dante wouldn't have need to make such a fuss about it. Hell it shouldn't even be called a void, just a floating soul in a dark chamber but nothing like that happens because there is absolutely nothing there.

I'm just gonna call DDM and elizha to check the rest of the thread and be done with this brain melting argument.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

 

[Theglassman12]

Sure, having more staff members to finish this is fine by me.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Sure, having more staff members to finish this is fine by me.

Tag them cuz they won't come otherwise

 

[Theglassman12]

@DarkDragonMedeus @Elizhaa You guys wanna give your two cents in this topic?

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

The thread isn't only about Mundus btw despite all the stuff above

 

[KLOL506]

@Abstractions @DarkGrath @Elizhaa Opinions would be appreciated.

 

[Elizhaa]

Information Type 2 type is, from what I know, when the world is stated to be made of information; it could be suggested to be the case since the act of naming demons seems to change reality. I could see being fine. DT is largely responsible for the current definition of power, so he would supersede my knowledge, though.


I could see NEp Nature Type 1 Aspect 1 and 5 from Glassman's reason. The rest, I am neutral; weirdly, DT would give Mundus his name, which could empower him like Glassman. I am neutral about the rest thought possibly could possible from scaling those demons with no name

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Thank you for coming

 

[KLOL506]

'Kay so what's the vote count and what are the conclusions that are to be applied?

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

'Kay so what's the vote count and what are the conclusions that are to be applied?

Glass disagreed with everything, Elizhaa is neutral towards nep but fine with the info type 2, Griffin is the same as Elizhaa.

Basically take nep out of Mundus profile and add type 2 to the Demon phys.

 

[Sevil Natas]

why would we take out NEP when they said they're only neutral towards it. its too early to conclude this especially since some of the arguments were left not responded to.

just apply info type 2 for now if we must apply smth since that's the only thing that appears to be accepted

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

why would we take out NEP when they said they're only neutral towards it. its too early to conclude this especially since some of the arguments were left not responded to.

just apply info type 2 for now if we must apply smth since that's the only thing that appears to be accepted

Majority of staff disagreed with nep and honestly I don't think my brain can handle another round of "his body is a void but actually he is a soul and that's 100% different from a ghost or any other random demon because mental gimnastiscs"

I'll get what's accepted and take out what's rejected and be done with it, you are free to make your own thread later

 

[LordGinSama]

Majority of staff disagreed with nep and honestly I don't think my brain can handle another round of "his body is a void but actually he is a soul and that's 100% different from a ghost or any other random demon because mental gimnastiscs"

I'll get what's accepted and take out what's rejected and be done with it, you are free to make your own thread later

Alpha mindset.

 

[Sevil Natas]

Majority of staff disagreed with nep

not really only 1 disagreed and 2 are neutral. hell lordgriffin is leaning on agreement. you're definitely jumping the gun here

I could see NEp Nature Type 1 Aspect 1 and 5 from Glassman's reason. The rest, I am neutral; weirdly, DT would give Mundus his name, which could empower him like Glassman. I am neutral about the rest thought possibly could possible from scaling those demons with no name

also want to point out that aspect 1 is the soul and the soul includes all other aspects such as concept, mind and info. so if his soul is non existent every other aspect is also

 

[Theglassman12]

@Ibrahem again that's not elaborated on if he literally lacked a soul due to him becoming a void or not, especially with PoC making the Souls more important than concepts, if you have any scans for the soul being gone that would be good.

@Tony_di_bugalu yeah going through the scans you sent me on discord, nothing about this implied his name was nonexistent, Dante just brings up Mundus nonchalantly given he knows who the demon king is, and there's no mention that the demons are suddenly able to speak his name now, just that they got some confidence in fighting the demon king with dante's help, nothing about him granting Mundus his name back which would make no sense for Dante to help out the dude who's tormented his family for so long.

Either way, I can see Aspect type 5 for Void mundus, but the others I'm not so sure given the souls literally have all of that stuff and we have no statements that Void Mundus' soul is nonexistent.

@Tony_di_bugalu I literally said this in the thread, so no I didn't disagree with everything.