The Strong Will Thrive! (Senator Armstrong vs. Machoke)

[Starter_Pack]

The doors of the Veilstone City Gym burst open, nearly breaking them off their hinges, and a very burly looking man casually strode through the doors with a smoking cigar in his mouth, approaching the Machoke currently training on the sandbag nearby.

"Hello there!" he said in a casual voice as he walked up to the Pokémon. "I was hoping to take a moment of your time. You see, my name is Armstrong, I'm running a campaign to become elected president of this fine country, and I would appreciate the help of some muscle to...make sure nothing can stop me prematurely. To make things brief, I'd like you to come work for me."

"Ma-choke!" The Pokémon said, disgruntled, before returning to the sandbag.

Slightly irritated, Armstrong walked up to the Machoke and put his hand on its shoulder. "Please, don't turn me down so suddenly. I'm sure we can-"

His statement was cut off when the Pokémon suddenly turned and violently punched the man away. Turning back to the sandbag, it stopped when it saw Armstrong's steaming arms from having blocked the attack, appearing with a metal sheen before returning to normal. The man uncrossed his arms and readjusted his glasses, spitting out his cigar.

"So, I see you're a man of fists instead of words," Armstrong said, cracking his knuckles and getting the cricks out of his neck. "That's fine. If you want to know the truth of things, I hate having to use words too. Society is broken, where some monkeys dressed up in suits can gain all the power in the world with just pretty words. The only thing that should matter in this world is your raw strength." Armstrong violently ripped off his shirt and tossed it aside, before he lowered himself into a combat stance. "So, let's see yours."

In the blue corner, we have Senator Armstrong from Metal Gear, and in the red corner, we have Machoke from Pokémon.

• This is a battle to the death or incapacitation. No holds barred.
• Neither character are aware of each other beforehand, and there is no prep time.
• Neither character are allowed any outside help.
• This battle takes place in the Veilstone City Gym, giving Machoke the home-field advantage.
• Speed is equalized.

With all this being said, let the debate begin!

• "I have a dream!": 0
• "Machoke!": 0
• Inconclusive: 0

 

[Armorchompy]

How's the AP looking?

 

[Armorchompy]

also, typo in title

 

[ShakeResounding]

Armstong's Durability no-sells 121 Kiloton explosions, and his AP scales to that I think.

Machoke scales to 5.482550496 x 10^14 J, whatever that is in Kilotons lol.

 

[Starter_Pack]

also, typo in title

Fixed, thank you.

It does list the joules in the EXCELSUS calc.

5.087827 X 10¹⁴ J

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

Snip

 

[Starter_Pack]

It does list the joules in the EXCELSUS calc.

5.087827 X 10¹⁴ J

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

Ah, then:

So... if what Shake said about Armstrong's AP is correct, then Machoke will have to go for amps and lower Armstrong's stats really quickly methinks

 

[Abstractions]

While Armstrong is definitely more durable and unfortunately has the LS advantage, I don't believe this guarantees any sort of victory, granted that Machoke has the means to gradually increase in strength over time through Bulk Up, while also being able to decrease Armstrong's defense and speed through Leer and Scary Face respectively.

Dynamic Punch will confuse Armstrong, and Revenge means that Machoke can unleash much more powerful hits in response to getting struck first.

You can also argue that Armstrong could burn Machoke, which would only make the strength situation worse with Guts being a factor.

Beyond that I'm not sure what else one could add in regards to Machoke, unless you want to bring up the fact that despite its regular strength it is considered to be holding back because of the Power-Save Belt, or that its Focus Band may prevent a KO if it comes down to it.

Not voting yet, just getting the information out there.

 

[Imaginym]

Machoke also has great Stamina, & very skilled, especially if it's superior to Machop in such aspects:

Stamina: High (A Machop's whole body is composed of muscles that are specially developed to never cramp or get sore no matter how much they are used in exercise. Machoke are described as never getting tired even when exerting its full strength for extended periods of time.
Intelligence: High (Machop undergo extensive training and are capable of using every form of martial arts. Machamp has mastered all types of martial arts)

& yeah, there's also the fact that Machoke could amp by taking off its belt:

Red Blue	Its muscular body is so powerful, it must wear a power save belt to be able to regulate its motions.
Yellow	The belt around its waist holds back its energy. Without it, this POKéMON would be unstoppable.

Emerald	A belt is worn by a MACHOKE to keep its overwhelming power under control. Because it is so dangerous, no one has ever removed the belt.
Diamond	MACHOKE’s boundless power is very dangerous, so it wears a belt that suppresses its energy.

Ultra Sun	When it encounters an enemy that’s truly mighty, this Pokémon removes the power-save belt from its waist and unleashes its full power.

Based on the Ultra Sun entry, it probably would, too, if Armstrong started no-selling or barely being affected by attacks.

 

[Armorchompy]

Armstrong indeed would given that his durability is far superior to his own AP (Machoke would basically barely be able to scratch him at first). I don't see evidence that removing his belt would be enough to make up for that either, and with No Guard going on Armstrong will be able to lay a fuckton of damage onto Machoke before it can come up with any strategies, if it is smart enough to anyway. Considering his superior strength Armstrong could just decide to, ironically, choke Machoke at any time and that would be pretty successful too.

Its stamina does not say anything about its pain and damage endurance, which leads me to assume a beatdown from a stronger foe would probably leave it in a fairly bad spot. Not only that, but many of Machoke's stronger moves actually lower its stats which is basically a death sentence if it ever goes for them in the beginning of a battle.

 

[Imaginym]

Armstrong indeed would given that his durability is far superior to his own AP (Machoke would basically barely be able to scratch him at first).

Armstrong nosells 121 kilotons of TNT attacks, apparently. Is the gap to nosell in his 'verse known?

I don't see evidence that removing his belt would be enough to make up for that either,

Why? It's stated to be holding back, to the point that if it took off the belt, no one would ever take the belt off because it'd go on an unstoppable, overly dangerous rampage? That doesn't sound like a small gap.

and with No Guard going on Armstrong will be able to lay a fuckton of damage onto Machoke before it can come up with any strategies, if it is smart enough to anyway.

I mean, Scary Face & Leer are just scary looks, which, given the circumstances of the OP (Armstrong trying to recruit, Machoke violently refusing, Armstrong survives, fight begins.), I could see it doing those early on.

Considering his superior strength Armstrong could just decide to, ironically, choke Machoke at any time and that would be pretty successful too.

Questionable if he could, even without being Speed dropped:
Intelligence: High (Machop undergo extensive training and are capable of using every form of martial arts. Machamp has mastered all types of martial arts)

Even if No Guard means it doesn't dodge, who says it wouldn't just try to slap or attack away Armstrong going for a grab?
Also, IDK if this is valid to be on the profile (Might be a Conquest Ability.), but:

• Thrust: An ability only for Machop and Machoke. The Pokémon can push an attacking opponent far away with super strength.

Dynamic Punch (Guaranteed hit with No Guard, supposedly, & when it hits, it inflicts confusion 100% of the time.) or Vital Throw or Seismic Toss may impede getting close enough for a grab.
Bide may be able to damage if Machoke endures, since it's double the damage of 2 or 3 turns of being attacked.

Its stamina does not say anything about its pain and damage endurance, which leads me to assume a beatdown from a stronger foe would probably leave it in a fairly bad spot.

Do you not get sore from working out?
Also, for what it's worth:

Ruby	MACHOKE’s thoroughly toned muscles possess the hardness of steel. This POKéMON has so much strength, it can easily hold aloft a sumo wrestler on just one finger.

It may be more difficult to choke than your average fleshy foe.

Not only that, but many of Machoke's stronger moves actually lower its stats which is basically a death sentence if it ever goes for them in the beginning of a battle.

?
Moves with penalties for using them that Machoke has, are:
Revenge & Vital Throw (If you count them being Negative Priority.)
Superpower (-1 Stage of ATK & DEF if it uses them.)
Close Combat (-1 DEF & -1 Sp. Def. Based on its Japanese name & depictions, it seems to be a flurry of blows.)
Submission (Recoil damage)
Wake-Up Slap (Wakes up the victim if they're sleeping.)
Smelling Salts (If the victim is Paralyzed, Smelling Salts cures the victim of Paralysis.)

Machoke does not learn Hammer Arm, AFAIK. It's certainly not on the profile, & from what I've checked (Gens 7 & 8 at least.), it does not learn it.

Other attacks it has include: Low Sweep (Reduces foe's Speed.), Karate Chop, Knock Off, Dual Chop, Cross Chop, Brick Break....
& if we include Egg Moves.... Bullet Punch, Counter (Also a potential answer to Armstrong's barrages or choking, maybe.), Fire Punch, Ice Punch, Rolling Kick, & Thunder Punch.
That is not even all of Machoke's attacks, & does not list Status Moves.

So yeah, I would not say a lot of Machoke's moves lower its stats. Only TWO do, ignoring recoil.

 

[Armorchompy]

Armstrong nosells 121 kilotons of TNT attacks, apparently. Is the gap to nosell in his 'verse known?

No, but it's not just no-selling 121 KT, it's no-selling armed attacks that would otherwise cut him apart, despite him being way above 121 KT in offense too, mind you that he could one-shot people at the 121 KT range while somewhat casual

Why? It's stated to be holding back, to the point that if it took off the belt, no one would ever take the belt off because it'd go on an unstoppable, overly dangerous rampage? That doesn't sound like a small gap.

It's not a small amp but it does not have any scaling behind it unlike Armstrong.

I mean, Scary Face & Leer are just scary looks, which, given the circumstances of the OP (Armstrong trying to recruit, Machoke violently refusing, Armstrong survives, fight begins.), I could see it doing those early on.

They are definitely more than that considering all the glowing and stuff in the anime, and that pokemon need to learn them

Questionable if he could, even without being Speed dropped:
Intelligence: High (Machop undergo extensive training and are capable of using every form of martial arts. Machamp has mastered all types of martial arts)

That is genuinely basically nothing compared to the people that Armstrong fought. Even fodder in Metal Gear knows CQC, which is a martial art that can dismantle just about any IRL one including armed ones or multiple combatants at once, and that's without going into the many other feats that characters in MG have, like Vamp being able to read body movements by one's muscles: Raiden is even with Vamp and a much more skilled Raiden barely defeats Armstrong.

Even if No Guard means it doesn't dodge, who says it wouldn't just try to slap or attack away Armstrong going for a grab?

Good luck doing that with inferior AP and LS. And Armstrong can easily do the same

Also, IDK if this is valid to be on the profile (Might be a Conquest Ability.), but:

• Thrust: An ability only for Machop and Machoke. The Pokémon can push an attacking opponent far away with super strength.

Yes, that is a basic martial arts technique that Armstrong could easily replicate or avoid.

Dynamic Punch (Guaranteed hit with No Guard, supposedly, & when it hits, it inflicts confusion 100% of the time.)

That is one move of the dozens Machoke knows, and it's arguable if it would even work on someone who basically has a passive effect dampening any and all blows.

or Vital Throw or Seismic Toss may impede getting close enough for a grab.

Good luck grappling someone who's hundreds of times stronger than you.

Do you not get sore from working out?

Not in the same way you suffer injuries from attacks.

Ruby	MACHOKE’s thoroughly toned muscles possess the hardness of steel. This POKéMON has so much strength, it can easily hold aloft a sumo wrestler on just one finger.

It may be more difficult to choke than your average fleshy foe.

No shit it can do that, it has Class K.

So yeah, I would not say a lot of Machoke's moves lower its stats. Only TWO do, ignoring recoil.

And they are both among his strongest if game stats are to be believed

 

[JohnConquest1]

Believe it's worth mentioning here that Raiden would've lost against Armstrong all together had it not been for Bladewolf stepping in with Sam's sword.

 

[Imaginym]

They are definitely more than that considering all the glowing and stuff in the anime, and that pokemon need to learn them

Given the circumstances, I still think Machoke would be likely to use them here, since the OP's situation is one where it'd want Armstrong to leave or be intimidated.

Yes, that is a basic martial arts technique that Armstrong could easily replicate or avoid.

No Guard prevents attacks being avoided.

That is one move of the dozens Machoke knows, and it's arguable if it would even work on someone who basically has a passive effect dampening any and all blows.

Nonetheless, if grabbing & shoving are failing, this would be reasonable to try.
Plus, 100% lowered is likely still a high probability.

Good luck grappling someone who's hundreds of times stronger than you.

In theory, yeah, Armstrong might be able to hold his legs down firm so as to prevent his mostly human mass being lifted, correct?

Not in the same way you suffer injuries from attacks.

Still a tolerance for pain, & the whole reason I brought it up was you saying
"Its stamina does not say anything about its pain and damage endurance, which leads me to assume a beatdown from a stronger foe would probably leave it in a fairly bad spot."

No shit it can do that, it has Class K.

That isn't why I posted that entry. I posted that entry because of the statement about the hardness of Machoke's muscles.

And they are both among his strongest if game stats are to be believed

Yes, but just like Dynamic Punch, they're only a few of several moves.
Also, Sp. Def is not one of Machoke's highest in-game stats.
Machoke's BST is 80 HP/100 ATK/70 DEF/50 Sp. ATK/60 Sp. DEF/45 SPEED
& I'm not sure if any of Armstrongs attacks would register as "Special" rather than "Physical" let alone both.

Other possibilities are Low Sweep (Speed drop if it succeeds), Karate Chop or Cross Chop (Boosted chance of Critical Hits, which ignore the foe's statistic boosts.).

There's also the question of if Armstrong would even go for choking early on, especially if he outskills & outdurabilities to the degree.
(Plus, if he really does no-sell attacks around Machoke's level, including armed piercing attacks, & casually at that, how do we know this isn't a Durability &/or Skill Stomp?)

& does Armstrong even go for choking early on , especially when's he's, ostensibly for this match, outskilling & tanking their attacks?

I suppose other options are Counter (Hit back with double the force received.), or Bide.
Oddly, the games say it makes contact, but the anime has always depicted it as a beam. (The games also have it as undodgeable, except in Generations 2 & 3.)

If Armstrong's go to is to punch so much & so powerfully, Bide taking 2 to 3 "turns" worth of attacks & striking back with double the power of the total absorbed damage might at least do something, right?
Or would even that not be a feasible win condition?

In theory, Encore could be helpful, assuming Armstrong doesn't Resist it, but it's also very in-character. Maybe if Machoke was Bloodlusted &/or had Prior Knowledge, it would have more of a chance against this vastly ouskilling & supposedly-so-much-higher-statted opponent?
Tickle would be helpful, but similarly OoC, & like Encore, is also an Egg Move.

 

[Armorchompy]

Given the circumstances, I still think Machoke would be likely to use them here, since the OP's situation is one where it'd want Armstrong to leave or be intimidated.

I think the match intro is just for show but if Armstrong feels his stats being lowered he will go all out anyway which would allow him to win easily

No Guard prevents attacks being avoided.

It's not some conceptual probability hax mate, if he moves out of the way the attack will miss.

In theory, yeah, Armstrong might be able to hold his legs down firm so as to prevent his mostly human mass being lifted, correct?

Or just grab Machoke's hand and break his fingers yes. Or use his arm as leverage to overpower him.

Still a tolerance for pain, & the whole reason I brought it up was you saying
"Its stamina does not say anything about its pain and damage endurance, which leads me to assume a beatdown from a stronger foe would probably leave it in a fairly bad spot."

That isn't why I posted that entry. I posted that entry because of the statement about the hardness of Machoke's muscles.

Yeah, that definitely is not enough for him to withstand a beatdown from someone that much stronger

Yes, but just like Dynamic Punch, they're only a few of several moves.
Also, Sp. Def is not one of Machoke's highest in-game stats.
Machoke's BST is 80 HP/100 ATK/70 DEF/50 Sp. ATK/60 Sp. DEF/45 SPEED
& I'm not sure if any of Armstrongs attacks would register as "Special" rather than "Physical" let alone both.

I meant the moves' stats.

Other possibilities are Low Sweep (Speed drop if it succeeds), Karate Chop or Cross Chop (Boosted chance of Critical Hits, which ignore the foe's statistic boosts.)

Crits are definitely not gonna get past nanomachines considering stuff like Shell Armor prevents them too.

There's also the question of if Armstrong would even go for choking early on, especially if he outskills & outdurabilities to the degree.
(Plus, if he really does no-sell attacks around Machoke's level, including armed piercing attacks, & casually at that, how do we know this isn't a Durability &/or Skill Stomp?)

If Machoke can lower stats then he has a wincon

& does Armstrong even go for choking early on , especially when's he's, ostensibly for this match, outskilling & tanking their attacks?

Yes

(The games also have it as undodgeable, except in Generations 2 & 3.)

Cool, more game mechanics

If Armstrong's go to is to punch so much & so powerfully, Bide taking 2 to 3 "turns" worth of attacks & striking back with double the power of the total absorbed damage might at least do something, right?
Or would even that not be a feasible win condition?

If Machoke survives it would do serious damage but I would invite you to look at his regen and stamina

supposedly-so-much-higher-statted opponent?

are you implying something with this?

 

[Imaginym]

Yeah, that definitely is not enough for him to withstand a beatdown from someone that much stronger

I would assume having steel hard muscles that never get tired even if it exerts its full strength & works out all day would be a better testament to stamina than how you feel, but I guess agree to disagree.

Cool, more game mechanics

Yes, I know it's Game Mechanics. That's why I mentioned that part in brackets.

If Machoke can lower stats then he has a wincon
If Machoke survives it would do serious damage but I would invite you to look at his regen and stamina

So, Armstrong is incredibly durable (Casually takes no damage from attacks, suggesting he's probably above around multiple times the yield of such attacks, (especially since you mentioned they were armed attacks) that would be around Machoke's AP.) , outskills, outlifts AND has Regeneration?

are you implying something with this?

While Machoke might use moves like Scary Face or Leer early on, a debuff of 1 stage is only like, a debuff of 25%, & a debuff of 2 stages is to like, 67% IIRC.
If Armstrong's AP output & skill are as you say, Machoke would hardly have the opportunity to land three, even if doing that many were in-character.

& dropping Armstrong's Speed by some doesn't help much anyway if Machoke still can't deal damage & is taking huge amounts, because No Guard means Machoke dodging is very unlikely.

Ergo, given the statistical gap from Armstrong's scaling chain, his Regeneration, Machoke not dodging, the huge skill gap, & the Lifting Strength gap, & Critical Hits are as unhelpful as you say, & even something like Bide to hit Armstrong with double the total AP of multiple of Armstrong's attacks won't work, I don't think Machoke could win in close quarters combat; Stat debuffs or not, it wouldn't get the opportunity unless Armstrong just stood there & let it do so, since it won't dodge, & supposedly doesn't have the survivability or means to get an opportunity.

The best way it has to get opportunities is probably Dynamic Punch, but as you've said....

That is one move of the dozens Machoke knows, and it's arguable if it would even work on someone who basically has a passive effect dampening any and all blows.

Not to mention the Confusion status was nerfed in later games to only be a 33% chance of hitting one's self now.

So I'm doubtful Machoke CAN feasibly win; If the skill & LS gap are so high; Even if it were 33% faster (As Scary Face could cause.), the Skill Gap makes it questionable that this would grant it enough opportunities to leverage advantages AND then Machoke uses Leer enough, since using Leer a lot might not happen in these circumstances.

 

[Armorchompy]

I would assume having steel hard muscles that never get tired even if it exerts its full strength & works out all day would be a better testament to stamina than how you feel, but I guess agree to disagree.

Not when casual blows almost one-shot

So, Armstrong is incredibly durable (Casually takes no damage from attacks, suggesting he's probably above around multiple times the yield of such attacks, (especially since you mentioned they were armed attacks) that would be around Machoke's AP.) , outskills, outlifts AND has Regeneration?

yep.

While Machoke might use moves like Scary Face or Leer early on, a debuff of 1 stage is only like, a debuff of 25%, & a debuff of 2 stages is to like, 67% IIRC.
If Armstrong's AP output & skill are as you say, Machoke would hardly have the opportunity to land three, even if doing that many were in-character.

yep.

& dropping Armstrong's Speed by some doesn't help much anyway if Machoke still can't deal damage & is taking huge amounts, because No Guard means Machoke dodging is very unlikely.

yep. And Armstrong has AOE.

Ergo, given the statistical gap from Armstrong's scaling chain, his Regeneration, Machoke not dodging, the huge skill gap, & the Lifting Strength gap, & Critical Hits are as unhelpful as you say, & even something like Bide to hit Armstrong with double the total AP of multiple of Armstrong's attacks won't work, I don't think Machoke could win in close quarters combat; Stat debuffs or not, it wouldn't get the opportunity unless Armstrong just stood there & let it do so, since it won't dodge, & supposedly doesn't have the survivability or means to get an opportunity.

yep.

So I'm doubtful Machoke CAN feasibly win; If the skill & LS gap are so high; Even if it were 33% faster (As Scary Face could cause.), the Skill Gap makes it questionable that this would grant it enough opportunities to leverage advantages AND then Machoke uses Leer enough, since using Leer a lot might not happen in these circumstances.

yep.

 

[Starter_Pack]

Hmm, so am I gonna put the two of you down as a vote for Armstrong then?

 

[Imaginym]

& it's because of that I think this is a stomp/mismatch, largely because of skill & the stat gap.

1. Armstrong practically one-shots.
2. Armstrong practically takes no damage.
3. Armstrong outskills, which alone, invalidates several of Machoke's options because it wouldn't be able to land them, as well as prevents it doing damage.
4. Armstrong has several Resistances because Nanomachines, son; Stuff like Confusion via Dynamic Punch is unlikely to work if used at all.
5. Even if he did take damage, he has Regeneration High-Low to Mid Regeneration thanks to his Nanomachines, meaning outspeeding likely isn't enough;
6. The first few stat drops are negligible, & Machoke has neither the characterization, nor the position necessary to have the opportunity to do enough to be able to reasonably win with them; A 25% Durability drop to Armstrong or a 33% Speed Advantage will not close the gap so as to make them feasible.
7. Machoke can't get much opportunity for defensive play because of No Guard; It practically does not dodge, so Armstrong would beat it to a pulp before it would reasonably get around to trying defensive or alternative strategies, or taking off its belt, as opposed to trying typical attacks.
8. Nanomachines practically prevent Critical Hits that several of Machoke's moves focus on, invalidating this means of overcoming the gap.
8. Armstrong outlifts, & does go for grabs in-character, meaning he couuld & would choke out/restrain or tear apart Machoke, & because of his skill advantage, could ostensibly outmaneuver it, leaving it helpless as it suffocates.

There is technically also the Power Save Belt, but as Armorchompy said: "It's not a small amp but it does not have any scaling behind it unlike Armstrong.", which seems to mean that's kind of negligible, too, since the implication is the boost is "Unknown but not enough to match Armstrong, who is way stronger than that with his scaling".

If this isn't a stomp because of the combination of Armstrong's huge advantages in AP/Durability, Lifting Strength, Skills, Regeneration, & Resistances via Nanomachines, & Machoke's characterization, then, yes, in that case, you can consider me as having voted for Armstrong.
I do not think Machoke has reasonably achievable win conditions here.

 

[Abstractions]

Armstrong indeed would given that his durability is far superior to his own AP (Machoke would basically barely be able to scratch him at first).

Armstrong is weaker than Machoke (121 KT vs. 131 KT), Raiden could still visibly knock Armstrong around at some points while still being directly comparable, meanwhile Machoke upscales from the 131 KT due to it coming from a baby evolution Pokemon.

and with No Guard going on Armstrong will be able to lay a fuckton of damage onto Machoke before it can come up with any strategies, if it is smart enough to anyway.

No Guard goes both ways, meaning a world of hurt is coming from Dynamic Punch and its confusion effect, this isn't even counting for Guts and the boost it will inevitably provide.

Not only that, but many of Machoke's stronger moves actually lower its stats which is basically a death sentence if it ever goes for them in the beginning of a battle.

Revenge does not, Cross Chop does not, Dynamic Punch does not. These also do not matter when considering Bulk Up is at play. Reducing defense of its own while already being the stronger of the two is not a problem when its already bolstering it.

It's not some conceptual probability hax mate, if he moves out of the way the attack will miss.

Then why is No Guard a point of yours in the first place? It goes both ways, if one can dodge the other does, can't really pick and choose.

No, but it's not just no-selling 121 KT, it's no-selling armed attacks that would otherwise cut him apart, despite him being way above 121 KT in offense too, mind you that he could one-shot people at the 121 KT range while somewhat casual

He's not one-shotting Raiden, or anyone at that level. This is misinformation, it's also weirdly contradicted because you cannot list Raiden surviving a brutal beatdown from a High 7-C then go on to say that one shot from him will be fatal, that's not how it works.

Armstrong in AP comes from the EXCELSUS destruction, he's not vastly upscaling from it.

Even fodder in Metal Gear knows CQC

This is a weak point, Armstrong is very much a bruiser, the guy literally goes into his track record by saying "he played college ball", the guy isn't skilled, he's just really tough.

I'll make this simple, Bulk Up buffs while already upscaling from a feat done from a baby Pokemon while already having the statistic advantage means Machoke will be able to harm Armstrong.

Continue.

 

[Arceus0x]

Also i believe that this thread is gonna be meaningless either way.
I'm working on a low 7-B to 7-B upgrade to 2nd stage pokemon and one of the feats is basically 100% legitimate when it comes to ap so there's that.

 

[Armorchompy]

Armstrong is weaker than Machoke (121 KT vs. 131 KT), Raiden could still visibly knock Armstrong around at some points while still being directly comparable, meanwhile Machoke upscales from the 131 KT due to it coming from a baby evolution Pokemon.

??? Are you seriously telling me Armstrong who shrugged off like 100 punches from Raiden does not upscale from him? Armstrong who casually slaps him around while trying to enlist him with a lil' speech? Also, I don't think we consider baby evos weaker than normal ones

No Guard goes both ways, meaning a world of hurt is coming from Dynamic Punch and its confusion effect, this isn't even counting for Guts and the boost it will inevitably provide.

Provide it how exactly? Armstrong's fire attacks do not leave a lasting burn effect.

Then why is No Guard a point of yours in the first place? It goes both ways, if one can dodge the other does, can't really pick and choose.

The Pokémon employs no-guard tactics to ensure incoming and outgoing attacks always land.

Means Machoke will not be defending himself at all. Which is a generally really bad idea when Armstrong can just strangle him at any moment.

He's not one-shotting Raiden, or anyone at that level. This is misinformation, it's also weirdly contradicted because you cannot list Raiden surviving a brutal beatdown from a High 7-C then go on to say that one shot from him will be fatal, that's not how it works.

Armstrong was holding back mate

Armstrong in AP comes from the EXCELSUS destruction, he's not vastly upscaling from it.

Which he did while holding back yes

This is a weak point, Armstrong is very much a bruiser, the guy literally goes into his track record by saying "he played college ball", the guy isn't skilled, he's just really tough.

Ya ever heard of skill scaling? No "bruiser" is gonna be laying his hands so consistently on ******' Raiden despite being arguably slower, and the college ball bit is blatantly a joke on his part.

I'll make this simple, Bulk Up buffs while already upscaling from a feat done from a baby Pokemon while already having the statistic advantage means Machoke will be able to harm Armstrong.

Yes I am sure that Machoke will be spamming his rare status moves over his attacks despite "employing no-guard tactics" which will mean he gets his ass beat if he drops the offense for one second

 

[Armorchompy]

Ya ever heard of skill scaling? No "bruiser" is gonna be laying his hands so consistently on ******' Raiden despite being arguably slower, and the college ball bit is blatantly a joke on his part.

My mistake, it's not arguable at all

 

[Chariot190]

This is a weak point, Armstrong is very much a bruiser, the guy literally goes into his track record by saying "he played college ball", the guy isn't skilled, he's just really tough.

He also says he was part of the Navy my dude. He clearly has skill.

 

[Keeweed]

There’s nothing stopping Armstrong from just going for the choke and win. All these complex plans are meaningless on Machoke’s part because Armstrong can literally instantly end the fight whenever. He’s a thousand times stronger than Machoke, they are going to be immediately overpowered and strangled (Armstrong’s first move is strangling and he’s a grappler first and foremost).

 

[Imaginym]

Armstrong is weaker than Machoke (121 KT vs. 131 KT), Raiden could still visibly knock Armstrong around at some points while still being directly comparable, meanwhile Machoke upscales from the 131 KT due to it coming from a baby evolution Pokemon.

Doesn't Armstrong massively scale above his scaling point?
Also, what? 131 KT comes from a Baby Pokemon?

There’s nothing stopping Armstrong from just going for the choke and win. All these complex plans are meaningless on Machoke’s part because Armstrong can literally instantly end the fight whenever. He’s a thousand times stronger than Machoke, they are going to be immediately overpowered and strangled (Armstrong’s first move is strangling and he’s a grappler first and foremost).

Most of the likely plans aren't that complex. Bulk Up for example is just flex & get 50% of base more ATK & DEF.
Or "take off belt & get an Unknown but seemingly significant amount stronger but less controlled".
& Leer & Scary Face are mostly just abilities employed through nasty looks.

Of course, most of these still don't matter if Armstrong outlifts, outskills to the point Machoke can't hit him, & Regenerates, & according to what Armor said above, would Resist becoming Confused?
Not to mention might be stronger depending on what Armstrong's scaling is?

 

[Abstractions]

??? Are you seriously telling me Armstrong who shrugged off like 100 punches from Raiden does not upscale from him? Armstrong who casually slaps him around while trying to enlist him with a lil' speech? Also, I don't think we consider baby evos weaker than normal ones

Upscales in durability due to nanomachines, sure, but Raiden's rating already comes from scaling to Armstrong and taking hits from him, are you trying to say he upscales from himself? That's a scaling loop.

We do, it's why Machop is 8-A, a peak Machoke should scale above Dawn's Piplup.

Provide it how exactly? Armstrong's fire attacks do not leave a lasting burn effect.

Fire Punch, a strike with fiery fist that does not logically leave a lasting burning effect can Burn targets. Whether or not Armstrong's attacks do not apply a Burn status effect doesn't mean a target cannot suffer a burn from them.

Means Machoke will not be defending himself at all. Which is a generally really bad idea when Armstrong can just strangle him at any moment.

Ensures outgoing and incoming attacks, yes. It goes both ways. Should Armstrong strangle him he's also likely to throw Machoke, he's not going to keep it in a pin.

Armstrong was holding back mate

Not the entire time, no.

Which he did while holding back yes

This is not holding back, no.

Ya ever heard of skill scaling? No "bruiser" is gonna be laying his hands so consistently on ******' Raiden despite being arguably slower, and the college ball bit is blatantly a joke on his part.

Uhm, yes he can, he's much more durable than Raiden, stronger too. He can easily pull a grapple because of this, also that's just your bias becoming apparent, the guy was boasting his abilities with that comment and how he could break the President in two if he wanted.

My mistake, it's not arguable at all

Refer to above.

Yes I am sure that Machoke will be spamming his rare status moves over his attacks despite "employing no-guard tactics" which will mean he gets his ass beat if he drops the offense for one second

Rare status moves? They are a part of his level up moveset, what are you even talking about?

He also says he was part of the Navy my dude. He clearly has skill.

Because joining the Navy suddenly means you are the equivalent to masters of martial arts, you're missing the point with what I said.

There’s nothing stopping Armstrong from just going for the choke and win.

Something he does not do, even going by the Raiden fight.

 

[Keeweed]

Ok maybe complex isn’t the right word, but even the simple plans don’t do much against such a big strength advantage. If he goes for a punch or anything in melee range Armstrong can do practically anything to stop that attack. He can tackle him and then put his legs on him like he did to raiden. Machoke is a thousand times weaker so the fight practically ends there as his face gets punched in. Armstrong can wack Machoke’s arms out of the way and pretty much move him wherever he wants. He can just grab Machoke’s throat and Machoke loses a large chunk of his options. And Armstrong’s first move is to either go for a tackle or throat grab.

“Something he does not do, even going by the Raiden fight.”

What do you mean. There was literally a video posted showing he went for that.

 

[Chariot190]

Resist becoming Confused?

Maybe, he has nanomachines, and they can do that in MGS, Snake's nanos could help with a lot of shit and he's a senator and a high ranking one, so he probably has the mental res shit.

Upscales in durability due to nanomachines, sure, but Raiden's rating already comes from scaling to Armstrong and taking hits from him, are you trying to say he upscales from himself? That's a scaling loop.

I mean, what's the issue with that? That's normal.
Like for example, if dude A punched someone into a mountain and blew up the mountain and person B survived, person B would scale to person A's attack. But if person A was ******* around and turns out he had more power in the back he wasn't using, he'd upscale off his own feat, especially if he could floor person B who took his attack while going all out.

Literally nothing is wrong with upscaling off yourself if there's context behind it.

 

[Keeweed]

Um, a ton of characters on this site upscale from themselves. If you do your feat casually you upscale from it and practically every egotistical character does their feats that way.

 

[Abstractions]

What do you mean. There was literally a video posted showing he went for that.

He doesn't put people in chokeholds, that's what I responded to.

Maybe, he has nanomachines, and they can do that in MGS, Snake's nanos could help with a lot of shit and he's a senator and a high ranking one, so he probably has the mental res shit.

To prevent against mental probing, this goes as far back as MGS1, yes. But confusion isn't this kind of effect, you'd need an example.

Like for example, if dude A punched someone into a mountain and blew up the mountain and person B survived, person B would scale to person A's attack. But if person A was ******* around and turns out he had more power in the back he wasn't using, he'd upscale off his own feat, especially if he could floor person B who took his attack while going all out.

Armstrong's intent was to kill Raiden with the punch that blew up EXCELSUS, he wasn't holding back.

 

[Armorchompy]

Upscales in durability due to nanomachines, sure, but Raiden's rating already comes from scaling to Armstrong and taking hits from him, are you trying to say he upscales from himself? That's a scaling loop.

Casual Armstrong => Raiden, that is where it comes from

We do, it's why Machop is 8-A, a peak Machoke should scale above Dawn's Piplup.

lolno, nevermind that Piplup is not a baby, it has beaten plenty of fully evolved pokemon

Fire Punch, a strike with fiery fist that does not logically leave a lasting burning effect can Burn targets.

So Fire Punch clearly does not follow logic and does leave a lasting burning effect.

Ensures outgoing and incoming attacks, yes. It goes both ways. Should Armstrong strangle him he's also likely to throw Machoke, he's not going to keep it in a pin.

That Arm will shrug off. And no why would he lmao

Uhm, yes he can, he's much more durable than Raiden, stronger too. He can easily pull a grapple because of this, also that's just your bias becoming apparent, the guy was boasting his abilities with that comment and how he could break the President in two if he wanted.

None of that would impair Raiden defensively. Yet Armstrong can easily keep up with him, college ball or not. And mind you, he holds the advantages of superior dura and LS over Machoke too

Rare status moves? They are a part of his level up moveset, what are you even talking about?

Of which he has few of. And good job avoiding the half of my point you did not have a counter for

 

[Chariot190]

Because joining the Navy suddenly means you are the equivalent to masters of martial arts, you're missing the point with what I said.

Also no, but it goes to show that hyperfocusing "lol collegeball" makes zero sense, he has training and skill based on statements alone. Not sure why you even brought it up.

Also he matched masters of martial arts my dude, it's less missing the point and more I don't think your point really exists in the first place. The fact he could tag Raiden or retaliate back at all is stupid, Raiden has layers of skill and analytical scaling and feats, Armstrong being buff as **** doesn't mean much when Raiden should be able to evade and counter every attempt of an attack tossed at him by someone less skilled and slower than him.

To prevent against mental probing, this goes as far back as MGS1, yes. But confusion isn't this kind of effect, you'd need an example.

I never said if it would work against confusion or not. I was more referring to Snake's passives than that, hence why I lead with "nanomachines".

Armstrong's intent was to kill Raiden with the punch that blew up EXCELSUS, he wasn't holding back.

And then immediately after he laughs and is like "lol we're about done".

"But he said die"

Yeah he does that, a lot, even while not trying to actually kill his foe. As seen against Jetstream Sam.


Armstrong just talks big even while not going all out, he'll say "im gonna kill you" or "die" even while he doesn't actually plan on killing his enemy.

 

[Keeweed]

It’s stated in the codex that Armstrong can easily kill Raiden if he gets hit. So if that hit was meant to kill raiden that would be very strange since he just beat down on Raiden for a very long time and didn’t kill him during that (referring to Armstrong upscaling).

He doesn’t need to go for a full choke hold. Just grabbing the throat and strangling will be enough to significantly hamper Machoke.

Why would Armstrong throw Machoke away, when he grabbed raiden he kept him there and wailed on him until forcefully separated by the explosion. Plus raiden can actually escape Armstrong’s grabs (very barely) Machoke won’t be able to move an inch because he’s a thousand times weaker.

 

[Imaginym]

Machoke is a thousand times weaker so the fight practically ends there as his face gets punched in.

What? 1000 times?
Please explain the relevant scaling chain as you understand it?
Or are you referring purely to LS?

 

[Keeweed]

Purely lifting strength. I guess I can see how that would be a bit confusing.

To rephrase, I mean once Machoke gets grabbed he can’t move, at all, and so Armstrong can just wail on him with no recourse.

 

[Chariot190]

What? 1000 times?
Please explain the relevant scaling chain as you understand it?
Or are you referring purely to LS?

Armstrong is >>>>>> 3 million tons of LS, he's talking about LS.

 

[Chariot190]

It’s stated in the codex that Armstrong can easily kill Raiden if he gets hit. So if that hit was meant to kill raiden that would be very strange since he just beat down on Raiden for a very long time and didn’t kill him during that (referring to Armstrong upscaling).

That's true.

 

[Imaginym]

Purely lifting strength. I guess I can see how that would be a bit confusing.

To rephrase, I mean once Machoke gets grabbed he can’t move, at all, and so Armstrong can just wail on him with no recourse.

So yeah. I'm gonna stand by my earlier stance that this feels like a mismatch/stomp.

Armstrong has Nanomachines, very potent Regeneration, an advantage in LS that he will not only use, but basically make Machoke helpless with, & such a huge AP/Durability Advantage (After applying scaling chains, AFAIK.) that Machoke is ostensibly helpless, plus a supposedly huge Skill Advantage.

Thus, Machoke gets beaten to a pulp/chokeheld into helplessness too fast to have reasonable win conditions, IMHO.
& even if it did do notable damage, Regeneration via Nanomachines, lol.

Stomp/Mismatch.

(Plus, it also feels like maybe Metal Gear needs a CRT about Armstrong's AP/Durability & Skill Levels & scaling.)