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Tier 0 Force

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Firestorm808 said:
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All of these abilities are inherent to being tier 0. I do think the OP could refine what they mean by some things, though, but I don't see why any of these require scans if every Tier 0 necessarily has these traits (Especially Omniscience, Large Size, Abstract Existence, Non-existent Phys etc.).
 
Grand_Astartes said:
All of these abilities are inherent to being tier 0. I do think the OP could refine what they mean by some things, though, but I don't see why any of these require scans if every Tier 0 necessarily has these traits (Especially Omniscience, Large Size, Abstract Existence, Non-existent Phys etc.
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True, and they cannot demonstrate "conceptual manipulation" for instance because it implies a consciousness intrinsic to the essence/existence hybrid rather than a consciousness manifested in the existence the tier 0 being is identical to.
 
Grand_Astartes said:
All of these abilities are inherent to being tier 0. I do think the OP could refine what they mean by some things, though, but I don't see why any of these require scans if every Tier 0 necessarily has these traits (Especially Omniscience, Large Size, Abstract Existence, Non-existent Phys etc.).
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In your opinion, which ones still need scans?

Side Note: We should also mention superiority to the 1-A profiles like the Beyond Shadows, True Celestials, etc.
 
Firestorm808 said:
In your opinion, which ones still need scans?

Side Note: We should also mention superiority to the 1-A profiles like the Beyond Shadows, True Celestials, etc.
Click to expand...
Probably the only thing I think could use a supplemental scan (because I am pretty sure there are outright statements) is the Omniscience one, but omniscience is just an inherent trait of Tier 0, along with all other wiki abilities. I think the probability manip thing and CM Type 2 thing can be removed, though, since they're either not worth pointing out or weirdly phrased.

Also agree with mentioning the superiority. Other than that idk what else would change about the profile for now besides removing the tabber on the top of the page.
 
Firestorm808 said:
In your opinion, which ones still need scans?

Side Note: We should also mention superiority to the 1-A profiles like the Beyond Shadows, True Celestials, etc.
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That should already be implied due to it's ontological status, and there's absolutely zero reason why that needs to be mentioned.
 
Is there a reason why the non-duality in question is Type 3? It should extrapolate the many-valued logic, not just beyond and/or governing duality.
 
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
Is there a reason why the non-duality in question is Type 3? It should extrapolate the many-valued logic, not just beyond and/or governing duality.
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I heavily implore you to read all the scans and the argument itself before making a comment like this, as divinely simple undifferentiation implies it being beyond all logical systems. Common schools of thought/proponents of mysticism do not view transcendence of logic as a key component of the ultimate reality's ontological status.
 
Grand_Astartes said:
Probably the only thing I think could use a supplemental scan (because I am pretty sure there are outright statements) is the Omniscience one, but omniscience is just an inherent trait of Tier 0, along with all other wiki abilities. I think the probability manip thing and CM Type 2 thing can be removed, though, since they're either not worth pointing out or weirdly phrased.

Also agree with mentioning the superiority. Other than that idk what else would change about the profile for now besides removing the tabber on the top of the page.
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Alright, then. We'll cut out the stuff that needs work and leave the rest.

Is there anything else that we need for this thread?
 
OTG0001 said:
I heavily implore you to read all the scans and the argument itself before making a comment like this, as divinely simple undifferentiation implies it being beyond all logical systems. Common schools of thought/proponents of mysticism do not view transcendence of logic as a key component of the ultimate reality's ontological status.
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That's not how it works, but, I would like to see the specifics of it. Since the non-duality doesn't seem to be all that much unless you can highlight the specific I need to look at.
 
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
That's not how it works, but, I would like to see the specifics of it. Since the non-duality doesn't seem to be all that much unless you can highlight the specific I need to look at.
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"that's not how it works" very nice counterargument. Again, I do implore you to read the content itself (taoism, neoplatonism, etc.) before making these comments. By virtue of the ontological status that being said to be "is" or having essence identical to attributes, it should already imply it's beyond logical systems. We can discuss this on discord, if you wish.
 
OTG0001 said:
"That's not how it works" very nice counterargument. Again, I do implore you to read the content itself (taoism, neoplatonism, etc.) before making these comments. By virtue of the ontological status that being said to be "is" or having essence identical to attributes, it should already imply it's beyond logical systems. We can discuss this on discord, if you wish.
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No, I'm not discussing this on Discord, but this argument of yours does not stick. You're giving it a fhay specific thing mainly on the premise “0 can have any ability,” but that's not how we index specific attributes. 0s doesn't inherently get that Aspect 3 without the proper mention of at least four logics it supersedes. 0s naturally receive non-duality respectively, but the specific aspect needs to be addressed.
 
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Can we simply choose a type of nonduality for now and later modify it or make other adjustments in the future thread? lol
 
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
No, I'm not discussing this on Discord, but this argument of yours does not stick. You're giving it a fhay specific thing mainly on the premise “0 can have any ability,” but that's not how we index specific attributes. 0s doesn't inherently get that Aspect 3 without the proper mention of at least four logics it supersedes. 0s naturally receive non-duality respectively, but the specific aspect needs to be addressed.
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The absurdity of your counter here is through the roof, atp you're just being disingenuous and picky. If we assume the force is not unrestrained from all logical systems, it's not tier 0 to begin with, because that would be like saying "it is logical" instead of the statement "it is", and your implication is that the force IS bound by logic without further evidence, which would contradict not only the statements in-verse affirming why it possesses no separate attributes (insofar as it cannot have any) but also the methodology towards attaining tier 0.

Again, your clear lack of knowledge is very blatant here, please understand what the tier entails before making comments like this. It's also funny how other Tier 0 ultimate realities possess the same non-duality tier through similar scans to what the Force has.
 
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OTG0001 said:
The absurdity of your counter here is through the roof, atp you're just being disingenuous and picky. If we assume the force is not unrestrained from all logical systems, it's not tier 0 to begin with, because that would be like saying "it is logical" instead of the statement "it is", and your implication is that the force IS bound by logic without further evidence, which would contradict not only the statements in-verse affirming why it possesses no separate attributes (insofar as it cannot have any) but also the methodology towards attaining tier 0.
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Not what I said at all.
OTG0001 said:
Again, your clear lack of knowledge is very blatant here, please understand what the tier entails before making comments like this. It's also funny how other Tier 0 ultimate realities possess the same non-duality tier through similar scans to what the Force has.
Click to expand...
Okay, stick to actual criticism. Yadda-yadda nah is all I read.
 
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
Not what I said at all.
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Then it's a non-issue, because then there would be absolutely zero reason for the force NOT to have that non-duality tier. Unless your countering something different which is not very explicit in your responses thus far (nice one-liners). So either you're being a total rat and halting the progress of the thread due to some agenda, or you're wholly misinformed about the tier.
 
OTG0001 said:
Then it's a non-issue, because then there would be absolutely zero reason for the force NOT to have that non-duality tier. Unless your countering something different which is not very explicit in your responses thus far (nice one-liners). So either you're being a total rat and halting the progress of the thread due to some agenda, or you're wholly misinformed about the tier.
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0s inherently have non-duality, yes. The aspect 3 (Plurality) needs a better explanation.

You're being rude and disingenuous. I'm pointing to something to work on.
 
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
The aspect 3 (Plurality) needs a better explanation.

You're being rude and disingenuous. I'm pointing to something to work on.
Click to expand...
I think you misunderstand so I'll lay out what I mean through multiple means so you understand.

If we assume a Tier 0 doesn't have Type 3, then it can't reach a certain ontological point yet have qualities (Type 2 instead of Type 3) that don't fit that status.

So through this, you either have to take:

  • The viewpoint that the Tier 0 is not Tier 0 because it's not explicitly confirmed to exceed logic (makes no sense in the broader context)
  • The viewpoint that the Tier 0 is Tier 0, yet it's ontic status is lower than Tier 0 because it doesn't unify certain attributes (contradictory)

That's why I said it was a non-issue. Both viewpoints do not fit the bill whatsoever.

0s inherently have non-duality, yes.
Click to expand...

We can certainly have a discussion of what Tier 0 entails, because it isn't just typical non-duality. They cannot be possessed of attributes.

You're being rude and disingenuous. I'm pointing to something to work on.
Click to expand...
Not really, because you're not providing any meaningful counters to what I'm saying, even if you didn't explicitly say XYZ what you're arguing definitely entails what I laid out. Discussions like these don't require empty discourse. Attack the root of what I'm saying.
 
OTG0001 said:
If we assume a Tier 0 doesn't have Type 3, then it can't reach a certain ontological point yet have qualities (Type 2 instead of Type 3) that don't fit that status.
Click to expand...
I didn't argue for Type 2 nor does lacking “Type 3” diminish the 0. The tier speaks for itself, since multiple character profiles have plurality without being 0, however, being “0” doesn't mean we bend the rules for them. Specific attributes are in common grounds for specific description, we don't give based on “vibes” nor the “tier.”
OTG0001 said:
So through this, you either have to take:

  • The viewpoint that the Tier 0 is not Tier 0 because it's not explicitly confirmed to exceed logic (makes no sense in the broader context)
Click to expand...
That's not really what plurality is. Evidently, all 0s possess Omnipotence, so insofar, as taking that notion at face value would mean we give them every ability. We don't do that because one it’s over redundant and two it’s something that's inherently a given based on just what the tier is. 0 are naturally “non-dual” by proxy of their existence, “plurality” in this wiki is a specific notion that is exemplified through examples in the cosmology, simply being above “duality” isn't what gives that third aspect, it also, isn't limiting the 0 in question. That's just how we index ability and 0s profiles are no different.
OTG0001 said:
  • The viewpoint that the Tier 0 is Tier 0, yet it's ontic status is lower than Tier 0 because it doesn't unify certain attributes (contradictory)
Click to expand...
Certain attributes aren't predicated on the status of the 0, it is on the cosmology description of their specific elements. If they don't mention it, we don't index it.
OTG0001 said:
That's why I said it was a non-issue. Both viewpoints do not fit the bill whatsoever.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I read that as you don't know how to deviate between our interpretation of 0 naturals status and our abilities based on what context of the description and not inherently given just because we feel “0” breaks the rule.
OTG0001 said:
We can certainly have a discussion of what Tier 0 entails, because it isn't just typical non-duality. They cannot be possessed of attributes.
Click to expand...
Non-duality in the sense of 0 is the utmost conceptual thing. A 0 with non-duality, aspect 2 is above a 1-A with non-duality (Obviously, not the sameness in that description of “non-duality” in conjunction with the 0s), aspect 3. It doesn't limit the 0 in question, that's just how you index certain abilities.
OTG0001 said:
Not really, because you're not providing any meaningful counters to what I'm saying, even if you didn't explicitly say XYZ what you're arguing definitely entails what I laid out. Discussions like these don't require empty discourse. Attack the root of what I'm saying.
Click to expand...
I'm literally doing that. You're nonsensical attacks are non-sequitur.
 
yeah, transcend all dualities doesn't make you a plurality; you need explicit proof of being a plurality.
 
The tier speaks for itself, since multiple character profiles have plurality without being 0, however, being “0” doesn't mean we bend the rules for them. Specific attributes are in common grounds for specific description, we don't give based on “vibes” nor the “tier.”


That's not really what plurality is. Evidently, all 0s possess Omnipotence, so insofar, as taking that notion at face value would mean we give them every ability. We don't do that because one it’s over redundant and two it’s something that's inherently a given based on just what the tier is. 0 are naturally “non-dual” by proxy of their existence, “plurality” in this wiki is a specific notion that is exemplified through examples in the cosmology, simply being above “duality” isn't what gives that third aspect, it also, isn't limiting the 0 in question. That's just how we index ability and 0s profiles are no different.
Click to expand...
I'm aware that one can achieve plurality without being Tier 0. This unironically strengthens my case; Tier 0s are just on a qualitatively higher level than what the type's requirements are. Tier 0s are verbatim special cases anyways, by virtue of how it works, it should already possess those abilities based on "vibes".

Here's what the standards say:

Due to the very nature of their existence, Tier 0 characters technically have access to all powers and abilities displayed on this site. However, their extremely abstract nature guarantees that no given ability functions the same for a Tier 0 as it does for characters of any other tier.
Click to expand...

As stated above, an omnipotent in this sense precedes and transcends essence and multiplicity, and so encompasses everything falling within such categories. Naturally, then, it is not constrained by any factors external to itself, and so if it is to act as the source and creator of reality (Which it might not), then, this activity is likewise completely unhindered by anything whatsoever.
Click to expand...

Since there cannot be any multiplicity at all outside of that being's creative activity, this entails that the act in question must be a radical production leaving absolutely nothing out. Such a sourcing would constitute the creation not simply of particular objects, but also of essences themselves, whether those be reducible to such objects or not. Furthermore, essence, as definition, is the determiner of whether something is a possibility at all (e.g. A round square is an impossible object because "To be round" and "To be square" are mutually exclusive definitions), and therefore, in being the creator of essence, an omnipotent would also be the foundation of possibility itself.
Click to expand...


Also, yes, it is limiting the Tier 0. We cannot assume it is possessed of a lower ontological state than it is (non-dualism is part of why it's tier 0 in the first place, to label the maximum demonstrated non-dualism as something lower than the maximum that is given by Tier 0 is inaccurate).

Certain attributes aren't predicated on the status of the 0, it is on the cosmology description of their specific elements. If they don't mention it, we don't index it.
Click to expand...
Nobody here is claiming that the Star Wars cosmology necessarily possesses the attributes of all logical systems, and that such are unified through The Force, we're just claiming the Force as at a level to where logic would not apply and hence would gain that ability. The ontological status (how non-dual or undifferentiated it is) of a ultimate reality is not predicated on the attributes it governs, it is predicated on how it is the maximal state of being itself, and how certain qualities of said ultimate reality cannot be attributed anything. For a Tier 0, we cannot claim it is logical, or not-logical, or logical or not logical or even that (Nagarjuna's four fold negation), we cannot claim it is X, because X is a improximate representation of the Tier 0. We can just say it is and nothing else.


If you really want to get technical, we know the Light and Dark sides are a direct analogue to the Ying and Yang as confirmed by a G-Canon source, and the Living Force by extension is the Taiji through both of those attributes being derived from a singular principle which also unifies them. How Star Wars' cosmology works is nearly a 1-1 copy of Taoism, hell even "The Way" is mentioned in-universe. GGZ Yog is Type 3 through a similar justification, so this should suffice if you really want to cherry pick.
 
OTG0001 said:
I'm aware that one can achieve plurality without being Tier 0. This unironically strengthens my case; Tier 0s are just on a qualitatively higher level than what the type's requirements are. Tier 0s are verbatim special cases anyways, by virtue of how it works, it should already possess those abilities based on "vibes".

Here's what the standards say:








Also, yes, it is limiting the Tier 0. We cannot assume it is possessed of a lower ontological state than it is (non-dualism is part of why it's tier 0 in the first place, to label the maximum demonstrated non-dualism as something lower than the maximum that is given by Tier 0 is inaccurate).


Nobody here is claiming that the Star Wars cosmology necessarily possesses the attributes of all logical systems, and that such are unified through The Force, we're just claiming the Force as at a level to where logic would not apply and hence would gain that ability. The ontological status (how non-dual or undifferentiated it is) of a ultimate reality is not predicated on the attributes it governs, it is predicated on how it is the maximal state of being itself, and how certain qualities of said ultimate reality cannot be attributed anything. For a Tier 0, we cannot claim it is logical, or not-logical, or logical or not logical or even that (Nagarjuna's four fold negation), we cannot claim it is X, because X is a improximate representation of the Tier 0. We can just say it is and nothing else.


If you really want to get technical, we know the Light and Dark sides are a direct analogue to the Ying and Yang as confirmed by a G-Canon source, and the Living Force by extension is the Taiji through both of those attributes being derived from a singular principle which also unifies them. How Star Wars' cosmology works is nearly a 1-1 copy of Taoism, hell even "The Way" is mentioned in-universe. GGZ Yog is Type 3 through a similar justification, so this should suffice if you really want to cherry pick.
Click to expand...
Makes sense, would have definitely been a lapse to put it as just type 2, thanks for bringing this up. (Also, the blog Ultima writes literally states that a T0 possesses all abilities on the wiki, so I guess it'd be ridiculous to limit them by something (which would not make it T0).
 
Grand_Astartes said:
Makes sense, would have definitely been a lapse to put it as just type 2, thanks for bringing this up. (Also, the blog Ultima writes literally states that a T0 possesses all abilities on the wiki, so I guess it'd be ridiculous to limit them by something (which would not make it T0).
Click to expand...
Well, really, if you read the mysticism behind the tiers, this method of tiering abilities would just be undermining the status of the U.R. because it would be constraining it to a logical state; So if this is somehow a standard to have explicit evidence for that form of non-duality (which it isn't, the Tier 0 standards already give that by the nature of the tier) then it's a very dumb one at that.
 
Grand_Astartes said:
I can, if you wish. We can settle the above nonduality debate by just setting it as Type 2 for now (the minimum default for a Tier 0)
Click to expand...

Please do, this Force profile issue has gone on long enough. When new things need to be added or something needs to be changed, we can do so in a separate thread.

On a sidenote, I'm already anticipating all the r/Powerscaling comments complaining about Tier 0 Force, lol.
 
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