Tier 3-A/Low 2-C Saint Seiya Ap Revisions (Gold Saints, and Scaling)

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

It says "the planets and stars of the milky way". The use of "the" here is a generalised reference to the celestial bodies within the milky way.

Either way aren't there like tens of statements of it being "galaxy" or "galaxies".

 

[Dienomite22]

"Destroys'' the'' stars and planets ''of the'' Milky Way Galaxy" Implies all of the stars and planets of the galaxy.

 

[Archaron]

Acutally it depends on context. The calc comes from baseline 3-A the observable universe. My post has the potential to reach into low 2-C useing the AE from Assassins, and the Big Bang/Birth of the Universe/AE of Saint Seiya Omega.
or far above baseline 3-A

Athena's exclamation, even though it has some haxs, is purely energy, regardless of the work, it does not have Low 2-C capabilities, only 3-B or 3-A.

 

[Alonik]

it's not the universe, it's galaxy (milk way). Just look at the disho's own dictionary that you linked in the kanji.

And shake t he universe is less than galaxy, is MSS IIRC.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Acutally it depends on context. The calc comes from baseline 3-A the observable universe. My post has the potential to reach into low 2-C useing the AE from Assassins, and the Big Bang/Birth of the Universe/AE of Saint Seiya Omega.
or far above baseline 3-A

Athena's exclamation, even though it has some haxs, is purely energy, regardless of the work, it does not have Low 2-C capabilities, only 3-B or 3-A.

|


I already post my evidence on why i believe it to be higher such as low 2-c. if its 3-A then it would be SIGNIFICANTLY way above baseline 3-A

it's not the universe, it's galaxy (milk way). Just look at the disho's own dictionary that you linked in the kanji. And shake t he universe is less than galaxy, is MSS IIRC.

Again, that depends on context.

 

[Alonik]

Again, that depends on context.

The context of the is just the milk way, have a plural kanji to make Galaxy have a sense of Galaxies in that specific sentence of jisho.

In that example have ÒüƒÒüÅÒüòÒéôÒü« and Úèǵ▓│

ÒüƒÒüÅÒüòÒéôÒü«=Many

Úèǵ▓│=Milk Way/Galaxy

If you put ÒüƒÒüÅÒüòÒéôÒü«+Úèǵ▓│ together, it will be = Many Galaxies, because "ÒüƒÒüÅÒüòÒéôÒü«" it's a plural sentence. And in the scan "ÒüƒÒüÅÒüòÒéôÒü«" don't exist.

 

[Alonik]

@Dienomite22

If that means true, can you explain how Cain's GE that more powerful than Saga's GE (by ikki), can just shake the galaxy?

 

[Archaron]

Athena's exclamation, even though it has some haxs, is purely energy, regardless of the work, it does not have Low 2-C capabilities, only 3-B or 3-A.
I already post my evidence on why i believe it to be higher such as low 2-c. if its 3-A then it would be SIGNIFICANTLY way above baseline 3-A

Athena's exclamation has no properties of being able to destroy both space and time to be able to be Low 2-C, it maybe able to cross space-time if you only consider assassin, but in itself it is purely 3-A or 3-B energy.

 

[Alonik]

i'm going to translate Cain's GE, i'll be back in a while.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

The Big Bang was just energy focused on one points but it was able to create a universe, it isn't merely just matter either it's the entire thing. If we take Saint Seiya as a Multiverse it makes perfect sense. Athena Exclamation is the same.

It also destroyed Shaka's realm. I think his realm has been stated to be a universe.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Athena Exclamation should be Low 2-C.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Athena's exclamation has no properties of being able to destroy both space and time to be able to be Low 2-C, it maybe able to cross space-time if you only consider assassin, but in itself it is purely 3-A or 3-B energy."

The big bang gave birth to time alonside the Universe [1] This is low 2-C which scales to the Athena Exclamation, and scales other Big Bang related feats.

The Athena Exclamation was used to pierce the Boundaries of the Underworld [2] [3]

Which was able to rend the underworld, and punch through it [4]

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

The Big Bang was just energy focused on one points but it was able to create a universe, it isn't merely just matter either it's the entire thing. If we take Saint Seiya as a Multiverse it makes perfect sense. Athena Exclamation is the same.
It also destroyed Shaka's realm. I think his realm has been stated to be a universe.

in Santia sho it was stated to be a Universe or a type of world. The Athena Exclamation broke through it

theres also the buddhist term with it being "Truth of the Universe"

just in case this gets missed..

The big bang gave birth to time alonside the Universe [1] This is low 2-C which scales to the Athena Exclamation, and scales other Big Bang related feats.

The Athena Exclamation was used to pierce the Boundaries of the Underworld [2] [3]

Which was able to rend the underworld, and punch through it [4]

 

[Archaron]

The Big Bang was just energy focused on one points but it was able to create a universe, it isn't merely just matter either it's the entire thing. If we take Saint Seiya as a Multiverse it makes perfect sense. Athena Exclamation is the same.

This is not the point, athena's exclamation is neither the Big Bang itself nor a replica of the Big Bang, it is just an energy equivalent to the big bang in assassin, and even so, to be Low 2-C, where this energy would pass all the time and space would be destroyed if there were Low 2-C properties, which as we know is not the case, it is just a stronger level of destruction of matter, therefore 3-B or 3-A.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

What do you think about the light novel statements, and the classic series stuff? Also whom do you believe wouldn't get Tier 3/2 rating?

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

It is the energy equivalent. The energy of the Big Bang created the universe. It doesn't need to literally destroy the universe to have universe+ AP.

 

[Archaron]

The big bang gave birth to time alonside the Universe [1] This is low 2-C which scales to the Athena Exclamation, and scales other Big Bang related feats.

The Athena Exclamation was used to pierce the Boundaries of the Underworld [2] [3]

Which was able to rend the underworld, and punch through it [4]

Okay, this is beyond hyperbole, again mixing everything with the classic and other series, it doesn't make any sense, and using the Omega Big Bang statement doesn't support that, it makes things even more hyperbolic, since even even in the sanctuary saga, seiya manages to make the so-called "big bangs", but we all know that it is just an immense cosmos and not the creative factor of the universe, space and time (this is exclusive to omega by the way).

"They are to intending to pierce the border that separates them from the living world with this IMMENSE POWER "

This quote alone shows that it is the energy that will break the passage, not the fact that it is the Big Bang or has Low 2-C properties (which do not exist).

THIS DESCTRUTIVE POWER

Again, you lack interpretation and even when the characters play in the reader's face that he refers to destructive capacity, you still ignore, again, 3-B or 3-A only.

 

[Archaron]

Athena Exclamation should be Low 2-C.

Even if you put all the works together, it wouldn't be Low 2-C for obvious reasons.

 

[Alonik]

How does shaking a low 2-C construct or something so far above baseline 3-A count as a galaxy tier or less feat??

He never tremble the universe in the original japanase dude, that's just a wrong translation.

Here, i just translated the entire scan, it's just the Milk Way, Cain trembled something 3-C, not Low 2-C.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Alonik/Galaxian_Explosion_(Gemini_Next_Dimension)

What do you think about the light novel statements, and the classic series stuff? Also whom do you believe wouldn't get Tier 3/2 rating?

The the energy that created the universe is only 3-B. I the same novel that upgrademanhaha uses to put the characters as 3-A, or Low 2-C, it is said that the big bang is the same as the Hypermyth what was crying like something secondary canon in this thread. In the novel itself is said that the creation of the universe is just 3-B, the Big Will clashed with fragments of the universe (Ouranos) and just created the stars of the universe.

• The birth of the universe was accompanied by the liberation of the Will of the Gods (Big Will) which permeated all life and lodged in the stars. The stars found their place in Ouranos, the sky. From the Pontos Ocean life was born. Then slowly, under the action of Time, the world took shape and grew, all humans populating it being born and dying following the destiny traced by the stars. The stars are dependent on the world and the world is dependent on the stars. At some point, people whose bodies were invested with the Will of the Gods appeared. These became the receptacles of immortal souls, prophets or were themselves considered gods on Earth and then tried to guide the world to make it better using the Will of the Gods.

If we are the nicest to accept this wank from Seiya create a literal Big Bang, at best the big bang in the novel of saint seiya is 3-B. And we also have the question that is no even a real big bang, it's just a hyperbole.

 

[Kepekley23]

Shaking a galaxy is anywhere from High 5-A to 4-B. Haven't been following the discussion, though.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

i'll respond in a few hours or so

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The Big Bang in Saint Seiya literally created the universe and formed space-time. It's Low 2-C, there's no debating that unless you want to be ridiculously pedantic.

 

[Alonik]

The Big bang in saint seiya literally created only the stars, as i've shown by

1) Hypermyth

2) The novel itself that was arguing with seiya creating a big bang.

The big bang released the big will against the universe that already existed, and created the stars in the sky.

WoG>Explanation of a novel of how the universe was created>Characters who were not know truly the origin of the universe.

So yes, there's no debate, just cross-scaling from different origins of the saint seiya multiverse, and ad ignorantiam in the part that the lore says the big bang just created the stars of the universe in the main serie.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It's incredible how you are willing to take everything absolujtely literal if it will downplay. The big bang created the universe, that much is absolute and you are just incapable of comprehending basic poetic language when something says that the Big Bang created the stars.

 

[Alonik]

It's incredible how your comment doesn't prove that the big bang has created the space and time, and it's just a verbal evasion where you run away to appeal that the text is not literal but a poetic grammar and forgot that is said the universe already exist before the big bang.


Stop with the Red Herring, amigo.

 

[Alonik]

Comment without any fundamentals, where only has personal opinion is irrelevant. Just remember that it is said:


A grande vontade (Big Will, ou ainda Vontade Divina), liberada pelo Big Bang, colidiu com fragmentos do universo, formando as estrelas que brilham no céu e o v├ícuo do espa├ºo em que vivemos.

• The great will (Big Will, or even Divine Will), released by the Big Bang, collided with fragments of the universe, forming the stars that shine in the sky and the vacuum of the space in which we live.

Here's the perfect claim that it's 3-B, and even that same background is used in the novel. So, no, it's not poetic, it's literal.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

• The great will (Big Will, or even Divine Will), released by the Big Bang, collided with fragments of the universe, forming the stars that shine in the sky and the vacuum of the space in which we live.
  
  
  

I don't see how this proves 3-B. Its just saying the Big Bang released (or gave rose) to the divine will/big will. Which then by use of the Divine/Big Wills "Colliding" with "Fragments of the universe" with in the already expanding universe gave rise to celestial bodies. I don't see how this is 3-B or less, or even debunks Low 2-C Athena Exclamation

• "The birth of the universe was accompanied by the liberation of the Will of the Gods (Big Will) which permeated all life and lodged in the stars. The stars found their place in Ouranos, the sky. From the Pontos Ocean life was born. Then slowly, under the action of Time, the world took shape and grew, all humans populating it being born and dying following the destiny traced by the stars. The stars are dependent on the world and the world is dependent on the stars. At some point, people whose bodies were invested with the Will of the Gods appeared. These became the receptacles of immortal souls, prophets or were themselves considered gods on Earth and then tried to guide the world to make it better using the Will of the Gods."
  

Liberation means the same thing as released to the above.

But again i don't see how this is 3-B, or disproves Low 2-C Athena exclamation.


I think you might be missing the point, or not understanding your own scan... like i don't see anything of tier worth in there.. I don't see 3-B, or anything that disproves low 2-C in there..

Im going to need an explanation on what your take of this scan is please so i cna understand your point better..

 

[Archaron]

The Big Bang in Saint Seiya literally created the universe and formed space-time. It's Low 2-C, there's no debating that unless you want to be ridiculously pedantic.

In Episode G, what created the universe, were the ancient gods, which makes sense since it does not share the same universe, only the multiverse that the classic.

Translation​

Eskatos Dunamis Original: Dunamis é a pura for├ºa, capaz de criar e destruir tudo. Os deuses antigos que geraram o mundo a possuem. Muito superior ao cosmo dos cavaleiros, é uma for├ºa absoluta, capaz de dissolver os ├ítomos que formam todos os fenômenos. Translation: Dunamis is the pure force, capable of creating and destroying everything. The ancient gods who generated the world own it. Far superior to the saints' cosmos, it is an absolute force, capable of dissolving the atoms that form all phenomena.

 

[Alonik]

@upgrademan This is actually headcanon above the claim, you know right? In Hypermyth also has a section called "the world before the big bang" where it is said that the world (universe) exists before the big bang, if it was not clear in the other scan, i think it will be now.

world in hypermyth means universe, as is noted at the beginning of the hypermyth;


O misterioso per├¡odo antes do Big Bang O Big Bang é o come├ºo do Hipermito. Como era o "mundo" antes disso? E como seria sua rela├º├úo com o Hipermito? ├ë Desconhecido por qualquer um neste mundo contempor├óneo algo anterior do Big Bang.

Afterward is said about the time before the big bang, and how the world (universe) was;

• The mysterious period before the Big Bang

The Big Bang is the beginning of Hypermyth. What was the world like before that? And what would your relationship be like with Hypermyth? It is Unknown by anyone in this contemporary world something former of the Big Bang.


"A era do Caos" A batalha contra os Gigas Certo tempo após o fim da Guerra Santa eram os Gigas, uma ra├ºa de gigantes, que amea├ºavam o Santu├írio. A exist├¬ncia destes gigantes continua sendo duvidosa e suas origens s├úo desconhecidas ainda. A for├ºa de combate deles, no entanto, superava a dos cavaleiros de Atena. Acreditava-se que tenha sido Hades ou Zeus que trouxeram estas criaturas de um mundo anterior ao Big Bang.

• The age of Chaos

The battle against the Gigas: A certain time after the end of the Holy War was the Gigas, a race of giants, who threatened the Sanctuary. The existence of these giants remains doubtful and their origins are still unknown. Their combat force, however, surpassed that of the knights of Athena. It was believed that it was Hades or Zeus who brought these creatures from a world before the Big Bang.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

give me a bit im typing up my response

 

[Alonik]

Take your time (I know you have irl stuff), the thread will not runaway.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

@upgradema

O misterioso per├¡odo antes do Big Bang O Big Bang é o come├ºo do Hipermito. Como era o "mundo" antes disso? E como seria sua rela├º├úo com o Hipermito? ├ë Desconhecido por qualquer um neste mundo contempor├óneo algo anterior do Big Bang.

Afterward is said about the time before the big bang, and how the world (universe) was;

• The mysterious period before the Big Bang
  The Big Bang is the beginning of Hypermyth. What was the world like before that? And what would your relationship be like with Hypermyth? It is Unknown by anyone in this contemporary world something former of the Big Bang.

Okay, and i don't see the point here. All that we do know that the Big Bang gave birth to Time alongside the universe.

"A era do Caos" A batalha contra os Gigas Certo tempo após o fim da Guerra Santa eram os Gigas, uma ra├ºa de gigantes, que amea├ºavam o Santu├írio. A exist├¬ncia destes gigantes continua sendo duvidosa e suas origens s├úo desconhecidas ainda. A for├ºa de combate deles, no entanto, superava a dos cavaleiros de Atena. Acreditava-se que tenha sido Hades ou Zeus que trouxeram estas criaturas de um mundo anterior ao Big Bang.

• The age of Chaos
  The battle against the Gigas: A certain time after the end of the Holy War was the Gigas, a race of giants, who threatened the Sanctuary. The existence of these giants remains doubtful and their origins are still unknown. Their combat force, however, surpassed that of the knights of Athena. It was believed that it was Hades or Zeus who brought these creatures from a world before the Big Bang.

This is a contradiction, an inconsistency brought about by the secondary canon. More reason not to use the Hypermyth.

Episode G tells us that they were imprisoned into the Underworld by Uranus, Databooks are considered secondary canon, and do not take precedence over the primary canon. The Sequels, and prequels are part of a "Primary Canon Collective", also just because something is secondary, or teritary canon doesn't mean its "NON CANON" it just means they do not take precedence over the primary canons.[1]

The hypermyth can also be seen as its own unique canon that has no relation to the other canons. a different universe/timeline altogether.

The light novel also explains more about the "The Gigas" [2][3] Proving further how inconsistent the hypermyth is.

One could say a large portion of the hypermyth probably got retconned

another point here is that the WoG statement from Kurumada regarding Chronos also contradicts the Hypermyth

In Episode G, what created the universe, were the ancient gods, which makes sense since it does not share the same universe, only the multiverse that the classic.

Dunamis appears again at the end of Assassins. There is also implications that any being that mastered the 9th sense could have it. Also, the other 11 titans also have dunamis, and Aphophsis had Dunamis as well.

 

[Archaron]

In Episode G, what created the universe, were the ancient gods, which makes sense since it does not share the same universe, only the multiverse that the classic.

Dunamis appears again at the end of Assassins. There is also implications that any being that mastered the 9th sense could have it. Also, the other 11 titans also have dunamis, and Aphophsis had Dunamis as well.

Dunamis is something exclusive to the gods, aiolos is capable of having the ninth sense, but not the dunamis, in Episode G, controlling a dunamis is the same as controlling nature itself, I need not even say that any human with or without ninth sense is capable of that.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

In Episode G, what created the universe, were the ancient gods, which makes sense since it does not share the same universe, only the multiverse that the classic.

Dunamis appears again at the end of Assassins. There is also implications that any being that mastered the 9th sense could have it. Also, the other 11 titans also have dunamis, and Aphophsis had Dunamis as well.

Dunamis is something exclusive to the gods, aiolos is capable of having the ninth sense, but not the dunamis, in Episode G, controlling a dunamis is the same as controlling nature itself, I need not even say that any human with or without ninth sense is capable of that.

Im just saying its not just exclusive to ancient gods (This is assuming we mean the same Gods? I might have misunderstood you). Iirc Aiolios hasn't mastered the 9th sense the same way the Olympians have. though he did kind of cheat to earn it didn't he? Iirc he had some special method to extract it from worlds he destroyed??

Overall my point is the Big Bang made it a timeline/Space-Tine continuum, Dunamis helped form some of the things inside of it.

 

[Alonik]

All this comment saying that the Hypermyth is secondary canon when i already showed in another comment that the novel you're using, has based on hypermyth.

And please, stop running away to the subject, when it contradicts your points, until that moment all hypermyth as being used as primary canon, when you saw that something did not fit for you, you tried to say that it is secondary canon.

About the gigas, what's the point? You're just talking about their time in the first gigantomachia, which doesn't contradict the hypermyth in nothing. They have been arrested for Tartarus, is something after the first holy war, which again doest not contradict nothing in the hypermyth. What you did is just a Red Herring, because nothing in your scans talks about the gigas in the world before the big bang, only after they got moved to the future.

Caveat
I hope you hold your argument firmly of "Novel and everything is cross-scaling and are in all the same universe classic manga/episode g/novel etc, and contradicts the hypermyth which is secondary canon" after that.

First of all, i want to remember that Gigantomachia (novel), is a story written by Masami Kurumada and Tatsuya Hamazaki, released in August and December 2002, the year of the definitive edition of the hypermyth. The novel was wrriten by both, based on Hypermyth itself. As is said here on saintseiyapedia; http://saintseiyapedia.com/wiki/Saint_Seiya_Gigantomachia

• Saint Seiya Gigantomachia is a story in 2 novels published by the Sh├╗eisha in the Jump Books collection. This story is co-written by Masami Kurumada, original author of Saint Seiya, and Tatsuya Hamazaki, an author who has to his credit many novels from manga such as "One Piece" or ".hack". The 2 novels of Gigantomachia respectively released in August and December 2002 are part of the second project of the revival of Saint Seiya and relate the confrontation between the Saints of Athena and the Giants led by the god Typhon.
  • The author is based on many elements of the Hypermyth, and the Cosmo Special, book from which this genesis is drawn, is cited in the bibliography of Gigantomachia.

I had previously mentioned that the novel was entirely based on hypermyth, but this was ignored, and tried to put context of episode G to try take the author's inspiration, which left a note about it in the bibliography of gigantomachia itself.

Plus; Chronologically, history is supposed to take place between the battle shortly after the Holy War against Hades.

That said, we strongly have that Hypermyth is primary canon because it is the very base of the Gigantomachia Novel. So from now on this discussion you can take two paths;

1) You stop ignoring my comment where i said the novel you're using is based on hypermyth, and don't contradict nothing in the hypermyth, and the hypermyth is primary canon.

2) You can say that the novel is not canon, but it will also end up the entire scale that you persist over the entire thread, and will go into what i have been saying the whole thread "when something contradicts you says that it is secondary canon to fit your argument better"

It would be nice if people read the whole thing, not just an excerpt, because in the novel itself speaks about things that i've claimed over the thread, like the novel itself speaks the same thing as hypermyth about hades not created the underworld, and have just ruled it, which is even in your last print of the novel.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Alonik
Quick question

The Hypermyth says the Gigas came before the big bang correct?

and Zeus, or Hades is linked to them, correct?

That is what the scan states which is the basis of your counter, correct?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

i'll be responding to this again later (probably within 4 to 6 hours maybe sooner)

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

"A era do Caos" A batalha contra os Gigas Certo tempo após o fim da Guerra Santa eram os Gigas, uma ra├ºa de gigantes, que amea├ºavam o Santu├írio. A exist├¬ncia destes gigantes continua sendo duvidosa e suas origens s├úo desconhecidas ainda. A for├ºa de combate deles, no entanto, superava a dos cavaleiros de Atena. Acreditava-se que tenha sido Hades ou Zeus que trouxeram estas criaturas de um mundo anterior ao Big Bang.
The age of Chaos

The battle against the Gigas: A certain time after the end of the Holy War was the Gigas, a race of giants, who threatened the Sanctuary. The existence of these giants remains doubtful and their origins are still unknown. Their combat force, however, surpassed that of the knights of Athena. It was believed that it was Hades or Zeus who brought these creatures from a world before the Big Bang."

Okay let me explain why this is a contradiction to the entirety of the series.

1st point.) Their origins are not unknown. This is established in both the light novel i use, and in the Episode G Manga.

For terminological purposes, The Giants = The Gigas. They are the samething [1]

""But what are the Giants?" asked Seiya.

"These are the beings who belonged to what was called the" Gigas clan "in Greek mythology, Seiya," replied Nicol." [2]

The Light Novel - They are sons of Gaia. [3]

"They claimed to be the sons of Gaia" [4]


Typhon is also a Giga/Giant [5]

"Typhon, the last son of the Giants line" [6]

Point 2.) The Gigas existed AFTER the big bang. [7]

"There was a time in the history of the Earth when another species took control of fire and also devoured the fruit of wisdom, just like humans. These beings were much larger and more powerful, however, and they too had gods whom they worshiped. "

Nicol had taken the tone of a history professor holding a conference.

"So these beings were the Giants?"

- Humans and Giants are incompatible species, natural enemies that cannot coexist. Isn't this proof the myths and tales in which the Giants are portrayed as malevolent human-eaters?

- A primitive fight ..." [8]

Point 3.) The Gigas were sealed in Tartarus by Uranus, and yes, some did manage to get out over time. its considered a SEPARATE universe altogether. This doesn't disprove Low 2-C Big Bang. For something that exist outside the time itself, it is natural for it to predate the big bang because it has no "time." [9] (will talk more about this in a paragraph below)

The Light Novel follows more in line with Episode G, than the hypermyth.

All this comment saying that the Hypermyth is secondary canon when i already showed in another comment that the novel you're using, has based on hypermyth.

Hypermyth is a databook, and considered secondary canon by wiki standards. the Gigantomachi (can't spell it) light Novel is apart of the primary canon. The difference between the Light Novel, and the Hypermyth is that the Light Novel is an actual story while the hypermyth is a databook.

the hypermyth has contradictions in it that contradict every other work in the entrierty of the franchise

until that moment all hypermyth as being used as primary canon, when you saw that something did not fit for you, you tried to say that it is secondary canon.

Databooks are considered secondary canon since scans tend to contradict them [10]

"When different source materials give different versions of the same feat, and by that they contradict each other in the depiction of the feat, the primary canon takes precedence over the secondary canon." [11]

About the gigas, what's the point? You're just talking about their time in the first gigantomachia, which doesn't contradict the hypermyth in nothing. They have been arrested for Tartarus, is something after the first holy war, which again doest not contradict nothing in the hypermyth.

How does this disprove Low 2-C Athena Exclamation/Big bang? The Hypermyth doesn't say what this world was they were sealed in does it? The other part of the sentence is already talked above above.

Also, predating the Big Bang doens't relate to anything about AP. If something predates the big bang for the verse. then your going to need to provide context on how that disproves low 2-C because we got some pretty balatant statements on low 2-C big bang, and if you think about it in a multiversal persepctive as well - If we take Saint Seiya as a Multiverse it makes perfect sense - for the big bang to be Low 2-C

Lastly here, "World that existed before the Big Bang' is fairly vague.

Red Herring, because nothing in your scans talks about the gigas in the world before the big bang, only after they got moved to the future

What proof do you have that this "World before the big bang" is not a separate Universe/timeline entirely? this is going to require more context, scans, and proof. This sounds pretty vague.

That said, we strongly have that Hypermyth is primary canon because it is the very base of the Gigantomachia Novel. So from now on this discussion you can take two paths

Databooks are secondary canon. Its one of the wikis rules.

2) You can say that the novel is not canon, but it will also end up the entire scale that you persist over the entire thread, and will go into what i have been saying the whole thread "when something contradicts you says that it is secondary canon to fit your argument better"

I think you might have forgotten about my other supporting feats which you only seem to be focused on 1 main feat.

As some people already pointed out, i can also say that you are Cherry picking scans to find one that fits your argument the best

It would be nice if people read the whole thing, not just an excerpt, because in the novel itself speaks about things that i've claimed over the thread, like the novel itself speaks the same thing as hypermyth about hades not created the underworld, and have just ruled it, which is even in your last print of the novel.

I want people to know that my scans are linked (The links are in the scans) so they are sourced.

 

[Alonik]

Okay, that's too headcanon for just one comment, i'll answer everything, cuz have some false acusations just by me answering a point that you have discuss and pointing every time.

1st point.) Their origins are not unknown. This is established in both the light novel i use, and in the Episode G Manga.

This is also spoken in hypermyth. In hypermyth says nothing about their origin, just says about a world they lived and were teleported from.

But here in this initial excerpt you confirm that no one knows their origin, including in light novel, but it's not what you try to pass further down, are you trying to debunk yourself? And that's goig to be important, because in a little while i'll show how controversial you are, by simples headcanon.

All this talking about what the giants are and being Gaea's children, nothing there contradicts the hypermyth. It is actually said the same thing in hypermyth;


A guerra contra os gigantes De acordo com a mitologia grega, Gaia, deusa da terra, concebeu secretamente os Gigantes em uma caverna no norte da Grécia. A Gigantomachia foi a guerra entre estes seres e todos os deuses do Olimpo, inclusive Zeus. O mais interessante é que, no mesmo mito, o ├║ltimo dos gigantes morto foi Encélado, derrotado por Atena.

• The war against the giants: According to Greek Mythology, Gaea, goddes of earth, secretly conceived the Giants in a cave in northern Greece. Gigantomachia was the war between these beings and all the gods of Olympus, including Zeus. The interesting thing is that, in the same myth, the last of th dead giants was Enceladus, defeated by Athena.

That same excerpt you tried to accentuate by replicating what i said, totally agrees with the Greek Myth in Hypermyth, nothing changes, including Nicol still says it is according to Greek Myth;

• dans la mythologie grecque, Seiya, lui répondit Nicol: in Greek mythology, Seiya, replied Nicol.

Point 2.) Zeus, and Hades, in fact no Olympian god has any connection to them. [7]

How interesting you have cut the context of this phrase, but that doesn't exist, stop cutting the text to fit you better.

Nicol was explaining to Seiya that the Gigas were seales in a War that didn't involves Hades, Poseidon or Zeus, trying to use this with "Gigas has nothing to do with Zeus or Hades" it's very despair base on headcanon.

• Our story concerns a Holy War which this time was not linked to Hades, Poseidon or another Olympian god, but to beings in the service of an ancient evil who wanted to seize the Earth.

Again, and i'm going to make a pleonasmus to see if you understand: This does ot speak of the Gigas having no relation to Zeus or Hades, is saying that their Holy Wars takes place after all wars against Hades, Zeus, or Poseidon, and that this specific Holy War is connected to the Gigas, not to the gods.

Point 3.) The Gigas existed AFTER the big bang. [9]

Good word play to persuade the reader, to think that they existed after the big bang means that they born after the big bang. And it's here that thing i have said up there to who read this to remember, about the origin of the Gigas be unknown, and now you're debunking yourself with an ambiguous sentence.

However the gigas existed after the big bang, does not mean "Born after the big bang"

As i've shown before, the gigas existed afther the big bang in hypermyth aswell.

Point 4.) The Gigas were sealed in Tartarus by Uranus, and yes, some did manage to get out over time. its considered a SEPARATE universe altogether. This doesn't disprove Low 2-C Big Bang. For something that exist outside the time itself, it is natural for it to predate the big bang because it has no "time." [11] (will talk more about this in a paragraph below)

Very good this point 4 for what i've told before, again shows that my point continues to be validated about you ignoring the story of the novel, and going into the story of another autor to try to explain your biased point.

This thing only happens in episode G, In the novel of Gigantomachia (Hypermyth), it is said that the Gigas were sealead between Earth (Gaea) and Tartarus by Athena.

• Athena then sealed these immortal evil deities in the bowels of the world, between Gaia and Tartarus, so that their evil wills could never again fall on the world. These are the facts about Gigantomachy.

The Light Novel follows more in line with Episode G, than the hypermyth.

No, the light novel doesn't follow episode G, it follow the hypermyth. I explain this in my previous argue, this is here (http://saintseiyapedia.com/wiki/Saint_Seiya_Gigantomachia), no matter what you say, or the juggling, you have NO OFFICIAL INFORMATION saying that it is not base on hypermyth, but rather on episode G.

Unlike my argue, which previously showed that the Gigantomachia novel is OFFICIALLY based on Hypermyth;

• The author is based on many elements of the Hypermyth, and the Cosmo Special, book from which this genesis is drawn, is cited in the bibliography of Gigantomachia.

Hypermyth is a databook, and considered secondary canon by wiki standards. the Gigantomachi (can't spell it) light Novel is apart of the primary canon. The difference between the Light Novel, and the Hypermyth is that the Light Novel is an actual story while the hypermyth is a databook. the hypermyth has contradictions in it that contradict every other work in the entrierty of the franchise

Hypermyth only contradicts omega, which has nothing to do with the classic, omega itself contradicts the classic, ant yet you use it to upgrade the verse, does it?!

Hypermyth is not a databook, it is a story, which was published in a databook initially, which is even within the "ÕìÿÞíîµ£¼" version of the manga.

And the final edition came out of Cosmo Special, and was released in 2001 within the Saint Seiya Shoshu-Hen at Monthly Comic Tokumori. In the edition "Tenma Seiza Hisho-hen" is the most updated version of the hypermyth, that is version i use here.

The hypermyth is a history, at his beginning is said this "The histo of the great Holy Wars"

Also, as i said no matter if you stay in a circular reasoning all the time, and be sending to be secondary canon, according to the policies here on our Saint Seiya Page, we use hypermyth anyway.

Databooks are considered secondary canon since scans tend to contradict them [12]

"When different source materials give different versions of the same feat, and by that they contradict each other in the depiction of the feat, the primary canon takes precedence over the secondary canon." [13]

Nothing contradicted the hypermyth, which is not even a databook, but a mini-novel of the holy wars. The novel you used doesn't even contradict the hypermyth, the entire lore is based on it.

How does this disprove Low 2-C Athena Exclamation/Big bang? The Hypermyth doesn't say what this world was they were sealed in does it? The other part of the sentence is already talked above above. Also, predating the Big Bang doens't relate to anything about AP. If something predates the big bang for the verse. then your going to need to provide context on how that disproves low 2-C because we got some pretty balatant statements on low 2-C big bang, and if you think about it in a multiversal persepctive as well - If we take Saint Seiya as a Multiverse it makes perfect sense - for the big bang to be Low 2-C

They weren't sealed in a pre big bang world, they came from there, in the same way has Chronos.

I've explained this, they come the universe before the big ban only reinforces the thesis that the universes already existed before the big bang and that the big bang created only the stars of the universe, and not his space and time.

Also, your comment has no logic, and is totally wrong by its own logic, if we go to the multiversal big bang side, the big bang in your thesis would no be Low 2-C, it would be 2-A since there are infinite universes.

But that's just in your argue, and as you argued that the big bang created the multiverse, i want to see how "consistent" you'll work to have Seiya and all the others, because a multiversal big bang in Saint seiya is 2-A.

What proof do you have that this "World before the big bang" is not a separate Universe/timeline entirely? this is going to require more context, scans, and proof. This sounds pretty vague.

The story itself and in previous scans where it says that the big bang released the big will that shocked with the pieces of the world (universe) that the gigas came from, as i explained earlier.

Now, you raised the separate timeline thesis, you're the one who would prove it, not me. Don't shift the burden of proof.

I think you might have forgotten about my other supporting feats which you only seem to be focused on 1 main feat.

As some people already pointed out, i can also say that you are Cherry picking scans to find one that fits your argument the best


This comment was for exclusively the novel stuff, the other works like classic and omega, i had already made rebuttals in this thread.

And i'm the one who says that, not other people, and it's about you. As for example take out of context sentences from the novel to say that it contradicts the book that the novel is based.

I want people to know that my scans are linked (The links are in the scans) so they are sourced.

Where is text interpretation dude? I was talking in third person, i never criticized that you were not linking something and had no source. Your evidence was incomplete, they're incomplete because you take them out of context to fit better, like the case of Nicol explaining to Seiya about the Holy War after the Holy Wars of Poseidon, Hades or Zeus, which are the "holy war" of the giants.

 

[Alonik]

I just want to remember that doing ad nauseam and ignorantiam won't take anyone anywhere, i'm taking all your points into consideration and i'm not misinterpreting them, i'm bringing every comment new information, and you keep trying to take away the validity via nothing for don't be equal to episode G, and the sources i always gave are things that exist inside the novel and as canonic as the novel.

This will reach 500 comments and will not be decided anything if you not stop with the strawman's, to put out of context my answers.