- 16,956
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- Thread starter
- #41
Because if he didn't, the small part of Zamasu that made its way into Goku's timeline wouldve still allowed Zamasu to live.
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Timeline Destruction Issues & Concerns
- Thread starter ProfessorKukui4Life
- Start date
- 16,956
- 4,853
- Thread starter
- #42
So this would prove my point that Zen'o's destruction was breeching Goku's present timeline to kill off the small bit of Zamasu that made its way there.
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Technicaly, this was Trunks's time machine's breach, it's the same place the time machine was when going to the future and going back, just like Goku Black went through whatever the time machine leave behind with his time ring when he came to the present.
- 16,956
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- Thread starter
- #44
Yes but thats kind of beside the main point I was making. It would mean that Zen'o destroying Zamasu was also extending into Goku's timeline, via Trunk's time machine breech, so that the small part of Zamasu wouldve been killed too.
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Oh yeah, I agree with that, I missunderstood, my bad.
- 16,956
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- Thread starter
- #46
Your good. Honestly it probably wasnt worth mentioning to begin with so if anything my bad.
Anyways, back to the original topic. How are we going to handle timeline destruction based feats that aren't complete? Zen'o and Ben 10 might be effected for being the examples of this.
Anyways, back to the original topic. How are we going to handle timeline destruction based feats that aren't complete? Zen'o and Ben 10 might be effected for being the examples of this.
- 3,451
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The problem with discussing Ben 10 and Zeno's case at the same time is that one is about multiple timelines while the other is about a single timeline (one that contain 12 different space time and a bunch of magic realms too so it's kinda not a standard timleine either).
Personaly a consider Zeno's feat pretty complete, the time ring even dissapeared IIRC and Goku going back to there just mean the time machine is OP like that or that DB, once again, doesn't follow the usual mechanics attributed to something like that (the fact Goku has no trouble breathing despite the absence of a planete should be enough to tell us it's not supposed a feat that demonstrate any deep mechanics of the setting IMO.)
While Ben 10 is a bit more complicated and kinda contradict itself on that but I don't know as much on that era of Ben 10 so I don't know for sure.
- 15,920
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A timeline can't countain multiple space-times within itself since a timeline IS a space-time continuum. The timeline has multiple universes, not timelines, within it.
- 3,451
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We count DB timelines has having 12 universe with each their own space-time continuum, we had discussion about this so many time, I think there's a discussion rule against doing it again. That's just how it's accept and arguing about it here would just lead to a derail.
TLDR : it's not that important.
- 15,920
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Yeah, we have a discussion rule about it both to avoid them being downgraded (to Low 2-C multiverse due to being a single timeline) or upgraded (to 2-C universe due to the different realms within it), but it doesn't change the fact that you're using your terminology wrong, since a timeline (which is exactly what a space-time continuum is) has multiple others within it isn't worded correctly.
- 3,451
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The 2-C rule is for another reason, we totaly consider a full timeline to be 2-C, AKA multiple space-time, that's why Zeno is 2-C.
But once again, it's a derail and not the suvbject of this thread.
Timeline is literaly the word they use in the show and how we always refered to it on this site..
- 15,920
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I know that's the word they use in the series, but that doesn't stop "the timeline has multiple space-times", which is effectively saying "the timeline has multiple timelines", from being worded wrong. But you're right this is technically more semantics than anything relevant.
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I love how this dissolved into DBS cosmology talk
- 15,920
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Did you expect anything else?
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I am still wondering how we went from:
"if u can erase a bit of time years/months/weeks how do we treat that?"
To
"DBS has multiple timelines inside 1 timeline" and so on
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I think that's just treated as time hax + EE, if u are only able to erase like "xyz years/months" etc.
Some characters can just erase months/years etc. And is treated as time hax + EE
- 15,920
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Because the latter was Dragomer's argument for Zen O's feat being complete timeline destruction rather than partial as the first case implies.
- 3,451
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That's not really what I said, I said being a weird kind of timeline make discussing it at the same time as the Ben 10 case make it harder to talk about, because one is multiple timeline and the other is a weird timeline that's multiple space-time so our conclusion for one case can be different from our conclusion for the other case.
My argument for Zeno's destruction being complete is that we see the timeline is completly erased and the time ring that represent the timeline and allow you time travel in it got erased too so it really was a total destruction.
- 15,920
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When do we see the time ring being erased? That's only shown on the manga, which is its own thing.
- 3,451
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When they show the time rings again in the anime, the numbers fit with Zeno erasing the timeline IIRC.
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I would ask for proof of such thing happening, but again, we're derailing.
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That's the damm point, you can't use time travel to travel from 2 separated timelines that doesn't make any sense
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The time travel is what create timelines in dragon ball to begin with. traveling between timeline IS what we call 'time travel' in dragon ball.
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That's directly explained how Trunks' time machine works. He literally can't go into his own timelines past, it can only go to alternate ones like the present one and the one they're in now.
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I would also like to add another case to this for comparison. IIRC Anti-Monitor in DC destroys infinite universes but the pasts of those universes (as they originally were, so unretconned) are still accessible by speedsters and Green Lanterns. Indicating only the present and future were destroyed during COIE.
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A timeline can definitely contain smaller space-times within itself. We note it pretty clearly on Zeno's profile.
Note: We consider the universes in Dragon Ball alternate time-spaces relative to each other, hence why Zen'ō is rated as 2-C, despite the events in the Goku Black Saga showing parallel timelines encompassing the whole of the multiverse.
The reason for this is that Universe 7 by itself has already been shown to contain parallel space-time continuums within its globe, such as the Room of Spirit and Time, which is still affected by time travel; which proves that the new timelines can encompass other space-times as well, and thus the events in the Future Trunks Saga don't prove anything in the way of the universes being physically connected.
- 10,398
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The timeline being gone is a given, the question was whether it’s gone in it’s entirety and I don’t think the time ring disappearing gives the answer to that.I would chalk it up to a plot hole/WIS. Mainly because we actually see the time ring disappearing. Indicating that the timeline is actually gone
Each time ring represents a timeline
Oliver_de_jesus
He/Him- 24,525
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They are just contradictions or retcons from the DC comics, although a flash story (wally) uses Hypertime to get to the Coie, but in the original comic it is stated that antimatter was affected at all times, as shown by dialogue from Harbinger where he says all times were affected
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There's no other reason of why a time ring would disappear. It's the answer that we have until told otherwise.
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@Oliver both Hypertime and the Flash story debuted in 1999 and it wasn’t really used for anything until way later so I am very skeptical on Wally using it to time travel to COIE (it might not even be that easy to even enter Hypertime) and Green Lanterns definitely didn’t use Hypertime, you could argue there are more temporal dimensions at work here potentially (without involving Hypertime) but you could also make that argument in Ben 10.
So what I’m basically getting from a lot of people in this thread is that these instances of time travel to the past are for plot reasons or just retcons and inconsistencies and that this is quite a common trope in fiction. Thus I think DC, DB and Ben 10 can keep their multiversal feats or else we’d be downgrading quite clear cut multiversal feats based on authors doing something weird, it isn’t exactly a satisfying explanation but it is what it is. We should probably write this down somewhere on a page btw.
So what I’m basically getting from a lot of people in this thread is that these instances of time travel to the past are for plot reasons or just retcons and inconsistencies and that this is quite a common trope in fiction. Thus I think DC, DB and Ben 10 can keep their multiversal feats or else we’d be downgrading quite clear cut multiversal feats based on authors doing something weird, it isn’t exactly a satisfying explanation but it is what it is. We should probably write this down somewhere on a page btw.
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- Thread starter
- #71
“
I’m not sure how smaller scale space-times being inside the universes are supposed to prove anything in regards to this, especially when they’re small.
Being honest
I’m not sure how smaller scale space-times being inside the universes are supposed to prove anything in regards to this, especially when they’re small.
- 9,978
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When an universe is destroyed, in quality of being a Low 2-C or 2-C, it rarely erase events through the time line. Simply erasing events through the time but without quite destroying the universe (what should also include adjacent planes) is simply Time Manipulation, not AP related.
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So what you’re saying is that erasing a universe in the present without affecting the past is low 2-C?
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That is rarely brought up, even when time travel is a thing in the verse. Either way, alteration of the timestream isn't something that can be done by AP, character should have a power that allows it to do so (although, I always considered tier 2 simply being High 3-A, 3-A or even 3-B + time manipulation + range, where the effects of the TM may vary).
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That is very wrong, if you destroy an entire timeline, you are destroying the universe at every instance of time, so you are causing a High 3-A/3-A amount of destruction times an immesurable amount of times
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Destroying only like 20ish years would definitelly not be Low 2-C, it would be more be limited 4-D like what High 3-A was way back when
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Now that I think about it, can limited 4D hax bypass 3D resistance?
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Your question is a derail I think.
It has no reason to. This whole '4D is one up from 3D' mentality is kinda flawed from the start IMO but that's a derail.
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What about destroying the present and the future as a consequence due to causality, thus would technically also be an immeasurable amount of times?
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well, destroying the present only destroyes the present, as scientifically speaking only the present exists at any point in time, as the past is what was and the future is what will be
though either way that would be because of a chain reaction, so the character's AP wouldn't scale
though either way that would be because of a chain reaction, so the character's AP wouldn't scale
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