To Aru Magic Gods should resist all their own abilities?

[ZERO7772]

Since the OP is too busy to make votes count for his CRT, I thought this may help:

Users who support the additions: 9 ( Der Wehrwolf, Accelerate420, TIHYDDWBE, StrongClick, Oma-Zi o022, Malox1696, Zensum, Mindovin, ZERO7772)

Users who are against: 12 ( Ionliosite, Elizhaa, Promestein, Kepekley23, Saikou The Lewd King, Ryukama, Skalt711, Damage3245, Ultima Reality, Schnee One, Agnaa, Lazy)

Mind you the only 2 of those 11 who even offered an argument are Lazy and Agnaa "who didn't replay in ages now"

 

[Accelerate420]

"All these Magic Gods are super powerful and would one-shot each other with hax if they could. Since they don't they all must be resistant to all types of hax shown by themselves".

If that's the basis of the thread then I don't see where the problem is. We don't do that here. Resistances are only given if a character shows it on-screen or on-panel. Not even if it's implied, because there could be a number of unknown factors at work.

I'm pretty sure there are several verses on the wiki that get by through implications. I agree that unknown factors can be a thing, but if a character were to say, imply that 'Even if you tossed x power at me it wouldn't work' would mean it wouldn't be counted?

 

[Damage3245]

@Accelerate420. I would say so. For example in chapter 487 of Naruto, Kakashi attempts to kill Tobi by using his space-warping ability of Kamui. Tobi tells him not to bother as the jutsu won't work on him so Kakashi stops. There is no demonstrated resistance here, just a statement / implication.

Based on this alone you could come to a conclusion like, Tobi must be resistant or immune to Spatial Manipulation but this clearly isn't the case as later on we're given proper context on why Kamui wouldn't be effective on Tobi.

 

[Accelerate420]

I agree with you there Damage, however, as you said, it was lacking proper context. This situation is different as we already know the context supporting this basis.

 

[AKM sama]

I'm pretty sure there are several verses on the wiki that get by through implications. I agree that unknown factors can be a thing, but if a character were to say, imply that 'Even if you tossed x power at me it wouldn't work' would mean it wouldn't be counted?

If that is the case they need to be rechecked again. Because there are far more verses where this is not a thing. And that's the general rule.

The latter part of your comment still involves several unknown factors and, as Damage said, works on a case by case basis where there needs to be sufficient context.

 

[StrongClick]

@Damage With that example, Kakashi n Tobi aren't characters with equivalent capacity, skill, ability etc. Nor have they determined a fight between them can have no possible conclusion. Given all the context here there is no logical scenario other than resistance.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with AKM Sama that we need actual demonstrations of resistances rather than vaguely assumed resistances.

 

[Accelerate420]

All Magic Gods are equal in all stats, abilities, and skills with Phase Magic. Therefore their hax such as Fate, casuality and what not can affect eachother due to its potency. We know that it's possible to take an action before an MG can retroactively react against it which has already been proven, therefor that creates a scenario where a Magic God could affect all of them or at least one of them and defeat them.

We know, as Strong said, this is not the case. They have been fighting for god knows how long and they themselves have come to the conclusion that it's impossible to hurt and kill eachother through their own abilities and means.

If they can't affect eachother with their Phase Magic, logically, this means that they are resistant to them. I won't say immune, but it means there is no scenario where a Magic God can Hax another Magic God. That is sufficient enough context.

Unless you are able to provide a scenario, of course. That is the context and the reasoning and I've yet to see it actually debunked.

 

[XDragnoir]

Btw, i just thought of something, the reason MGs stalemate each others is probably because they all have passive 100% success hax, can't we use this to say that even if High Priest uses Phase Manip to death hax everyone, the others will stay alive because 100% success? And this is resistence via Probability, which I think is a valid way to resist something.

 

[StrongClick]

@XDragnoir That's not how that works, as it is they don't resist it and per verse magic rules, hax with the same parameters would just cancel out.

 

[Agnaa]

Mind you the only 2 of those 11 who even offered an argument are Lazy and Agnaa "who didn't replay in ages now"

I didn't reply to me because, imo, the replies given to me didn't debunk my point, and I didn't want to repeat myself for the 6th time.

I think it's as simple as, I think that resistances shouldn't be given from these types of implications, while you guys think they should. This isn't as much a matter of evidence as it is a matter of site policy, which is why staff opinion is particularly important.

Maybe y'all could try to change how the site operates into allowing resistances from implications like this? But idk how you'd go about trying to change that.

 

[Antvasima]

Agnaa makes sense. We should probably apply DontTalk's solution then.

 

[Accelerate420]

If it won't go through due to site policy, then that's that.

I will however support the notion of at least adding 'they are able to counter everything they can manipulate' on their profile, which Lazy and I /think/ DT suggested as well in the last thread. That way we can avoid silly arguments like MG's not being able to resist probability hax because 'there's no hax resistance'.

How does that sound?

 

[Agnaa]

I don't see any issue with that, but I'd like other people to weigh in on that topic.

 

[DontTalkDT]

While I personally am fine with the notion of them countering a hax with their manipulation of what said hax is based on, I'm kinda against adding it to the profile.

Virtually every character with x manipulation can use its x manipulation to defend against x manipulation. We could make that kind of additions for a good 70% of the characters we have listed.

I neither want to set a precedent for people to start adding that kind of redundant information to all profiles, nor would I like people to falsely assume that the addition implies that the magic gods have a more special counter to these things than any other potent manipulator of them.


I guess we could write a reality warping paragraph for the Notable Attack & Techniques section for all magic gods and mention the application there, if it's really necessary.

 

[Accelerate420]

I was thinking the same thing. I thought it wouldn't make much sense to add it since it's kind of the point of reality warpers, right? It's just tiring to do MG debates where users will assume they can't counter a hax they can control because it doesn't list it as a resistance. It happens way more often than I would like which is my biggest issue regarding this.

If we can just turn it into a paragraph on their pages regarding it, that's alright with me too.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I personally agree with that. I disagreed with the general idea of the Resistances when I saw the OP, but Accelerate's proposal sounds good. Best I'd agree with is a "possibly" if we really wanted to push it, though.

 

[Elizhaa]

I also agree on DontTalkDT's new points.

 

[StrongClick]

I'm fine with that proposal as well

 

[LazyHunter]

As I mentioned, I have no issue with adding a mention of what kind of powers Magic Gods are expected to be able to counter/fight with their own powers to their pages. However, like DontTalkDT said, I thought that would be the natural assumption.

 

[Accelerate420]

I thought so too, but it actually happens often. So a little paragraph on their profiles would be helpful to just clear the air.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

The natural assumption is sadly not very natural at times so, in a way doesn't sound like a bad idea.

 

[Agnaa]

@DT There's been similar situations to this before. Usually profiles don't need to specify the limits of an ability and remind people not to use NLF, but Gagamaru Chougasaki needs that note. Yet, despite him having that note for years, other profiles haven't gotten similar ones.

If people consistently make a mistake with a particular character/verse, it's fine to add a note to their profiles to remind people against it.

 

[XDragnoir]

Btw, will this also be added to Aleister's profile? He could fight with a full power High Priest.

 

[Accelerate420]

Not sure. Aleister was doing tanking more than anything and was stalling a fight to gain their parameters. We'd have to discuss that in another thread if necessary.

 

[AKM sama]

I neither want to set a precedent for people to start adding that kind of redundant information to all profiles, nor would I like people to falsely assume that the addition implies that the magic gods have a more special counter to these things than any other potent manipulator of them.

This

 

[Malox1696]

As I mentioned, I have no issue with adding a mention of what kind of powers Magic Gods are expected to be able to counter/fight with their own powers to their pages. However, like DontTalkDT said, I thought that would be the natural assumption.

It's not natural uf people bring stupid arguments

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Malox, that comment doesn't sound very necessary.

Anyways, I'm still in agreement with DonTalkDT

 

[Malox1696]

@Malox, that comment doesn't sound very necessary.

i mean during vs discussions, see the above post i made above, the whole point of the resistant discussion thread was created cause someone was arguing u could Mind Control them

 

[Accelerate420]

We've had threads where people legitimately thought MG's, whose existence is based off going beyond the God Paradox which is a probability paradox, can't counter probability. I think we definitely have problems with people misunderstanding mechanics and abilities of reality warpers when it comes to Magic Gods. I'm not sure if there's a general rule on the site stating it but if not that should be a thing too so we can cite it.

Like stated above, the natural assumption is not always the most obvious, sadly. Just a little note would be fine, I could even write it if necessary.

 

[DestinyDude0]

I think the new proposal for MG's 'passive counters' in the NA&T section is reasonable.

 

[Accelerate420]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

Have DontTalkDT's suggestions been applied?

 

[Accelerate420]

Not yet I believe. Just need a note in the Abilities section probably or one tacked on to their Reality Warping power regarding they can counter. Is there actually a section on the site that states that Reality Warpers can counter eachother like that? Because that'd be helpful to have on the site as well.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Are there any experienced members here who are willing to apply his solutions?

 

[StrongClick]

The Magic Gods, being reality warpers of equal capacity and incapable of victory over one another, should be capable of countering all their own powers and abilities up to their own potency.


Bumping this suggestion to put on profiles so we can get this concluded.

 

[DontTalkDT]

We should write a more detailed description of powers, not just a note on this issue.

I would suggest something like this:

Phase Manipulation: Magic Gods wield a powerful version of reality warping, granting them almost absolute power. All possibilities are open to them, to the point that even omnipotence paradoxes can apply to them. Magic Gods can instantly destroy the world and manipulate and recreate it as they please. They can manipulate causality, change the natural laws and control dimensions, space, time, matter, energy and all other contents of the world as they please. They achieve this due to their ability to freely create, destroy and manipulate the Phases that make up the world.

That's what I personally would add. If we really need to explicitely add in the natural assumption that a space manipulator can interfere with another space manipulation just add something like:

As they can control the world in these ways they should be able to wrestle around the control of the things the can manipulate.

Personally I still think it is like mentioning that teleportation is super fast.


In any case I think LazyHunter should look over the text before it is added. He is good at writing such things.

 

[StrongClick]

I'm all for that, trust me it's not quite so obvious to people who don't read the series tbh.

 

[LazyHunter]

I agree with DontTalk's suggestion of adding a description of what Phase manipulation does and what kind of things Magic Gods can do with it over just a note. Having to explicitly add that they can be expected to fight off similar powers with their own feels kind of obvious, but if it's a common misunderstanding I guess it might be necessary.

 

[Antvasima]

I also trust DontTalkDT's sense of judgement.