Toaru Discussion thread New Fourms #1

[Piamma]

Aeons have only ever mattered to Aiwass and Coronzon from what I remember. They never said it applies to everyone.

I've seen people say that Mgs can't kill Aiwass and Coronzon based on this argument.
That's why I asked.

 

[Aseka]

That's because just black wing is weak.

No, it's clear that have something to do with Aeons. Accel gained white wings because of his self-realization. And that is Aeon of Horus.

 

[Piamma]

No, it's clear that have something to do with Aeons. Accel gained white wings because of his self-realization. And that is Aeon of Horus.

I'm not saying that Aeons and blackwing aren't related, I'm just saying that blackwing was a weaker Osiris, which is why it didn't work against Horus.
In fact, Curtana, the stronger Osiris, is specifically mentioned as being able to kill the main body of Aiwass.

 

[Aseka]

We don't know how strong Aiwass without avatar. We know Coronzon with her vessel is described as being beyond all Aeons. And when stripped bare out of her vessel, her very existence become weak. So maybe it's the same as Aiwass.

 

[Piamma]

We don't know how strong Aiwass without avatar. We know Coronzon with her vessel is described as being beyond all Aeons. And when stripped bare out of her vessel, her very existence become weak. So maybe it's the same as Aiwass.

We know Coronzon with her vessel is described as being beyond all Aeons.
yes She claims to have transcended all Aeons
But what are the results?

She was ravaged by the Mgs.
Worse, by that time the Mgs had infinitely divided themselves, and had been weakened yet again by Aleister.

 

[Churronzon]

Speaking of Curtana, does Coronzon's temple barrier have resistance to space-cutting since it can't be cut by it?

That decagonal holy ground was a divine temple protected by a thick barrier, so not even
a brute force attack could destroy it. Not even with the help of Knight Leader, Kanzaki
Kaori, and Elizard wielding Curtana Second. They needed to follow a specific pathway
through the ship to reach the temple and stop Coronzon.

 

[Aseka]

Yet is there a thing that describe Aeon of the spell that used by MGs? Maybe it's from Isis, but we don't know if MGs ravaged Coronzon with only magic or with brute strength too.

 

[Aseka]

Speaking of Curtana, does Coronzon's temple have resistance to space-cutting since it can't be cut by it?

Yes

 

[Aseka]

Even Touma can't return Coronzon back to her place in phases because of this Aeon things.

 

[Piamma]

Yet is there a thing that describe Aeon of the spell that used by MGs? Maybe it's from Isis, but we don't know if MGs ravaged Coronzon with only magic or with brute strength too.

I think their abilities are indistinguishable in terms of Aeons. because their abilities cannot be described by index.
(In NT14, it's clarified that she only knows how to become an MG, not the magic after she becomes one, which is why she didn't even understand Nephthys' magic to save Patricia.)

But people who think Mgs can't kill Coronzon are thinking they can't because they're just isis.
If, as they claim, Mgs is simply isis, and Coronzon is Horus, then my argument is that the Aeons they speak of are not absolute.

 

[Aseka]

But people who think Mgs can't kill Coronzon are thinking they can't because they're just isis.
If, as they claim, Mgs is simply isis, and Coronzon is Horus, then my argument is that the Aeons they speak of are not absolute.

Those ignorant people, did they forget about phase manipulation lol. IMO, phases they created aren't related to Aeons.

 

[Aseka]

So I think regular spell can't do damage to Coronzon while brute force or phase manipulation can.

 

[Piamma]

So I think regular spell can't do damage to Coronzon while brute force or phase manipulation can.

Phase manipulation is a surefire way to break everything in the current toaru verse.
However, post-nt13 Mgs are not allowed to use phase manipulation
(with the exception of Nephthys' single use).

So it's fair to assume that the infinited nerf Mgs have a means of beating Coronzon apart from phase manipulation.

 

[Churronzon]

Phase manipulation is a surefire way to break everything in the current toaru verse.

It wouldn't break the Pure World or higher Sephirah if you mean literally everything.

---

https://vsbattles.com/threads/toaru-kuroko-vs-coronzon.154430/

 

[Piamma]

By the way, if we're talking about Gt8 here, do we always have to mark spoilers?
GT8 is the volume that reveals the many secrets and limitations of the transcendents & BBC.

 

[Churronzon]

yes, please do. Not all of us want to be spoiled

 

[Piamma]

It wouldn't break the Pure World or higher Sephirah if you mean literally everything.

---

https://vsbattles.com/threads/toaru-kuroko-vs-coronzon.154430/

You must first prove that the Pure World or higher Sephirah exists outside the world.

Othinus and Kamijou Touma had been wrong about one thing.

They had thought that world of darkness had been the full extent of the world. They had assumed that pitch black despair had been the product of destroying everything and leaving nothing at all behind.

But in truth, there had been one more layer. It was as uniform as a thin membrane, it had not even the slightest seam, and it could not be detected or destroyed by anyone, but one last phase had existed.

This black world was the place not even Magic God Othinus had been able to destroy.

one layer = one last phase had existed.
The others are not mentioned as exceptions.

"everything" in a context, it's not just a line of dialogue or a thought, but a third-person writer's account of what has already happened.

 

[Aseka]

You must first prove that the Pure World or higher Sephirah exists outside the world.

Othinus and Kamijou Touma had been wrong about one thing.

They had thought that world of darkness had been the full extent of the world. They had assumed that pitch black despair had been the product of destroying everything and leaving nothing at all behind.

But in truth, there had been one more layer. It was as uniform as a thin membrane, it had not even the slightest seam, and it could not be detected or destroyed by anyone, but one last phase had existed.

This black world was the place not even Magic God Othinus had been able to destroy.

one layer = one last phase had existed.
The others are not mentioned as exceptions.

"everything" in a context, it's not just a line of dialogue or a thought, but a third-person writer's account of what has already happened.

Destroy everything in context means changing reality, destroying that reality. Not whole cosmology.

 

[Piamma]

Destroy everything in context means changing reality, destroying that reality. Not whole cosmology.

The reality of toaru already includes phase and dimension. etc

And since Coronzon has already descended into reality with a physical body, she can't escape the destruction.
Similarly, Aiwass is mentioned as being able to be killed by Curtana, and since Mgs' phase manipulation is to destroy all dimensions simultaneously, he can't escape either.
The only way to escape the phase manipulation is to prove that them exists outside the world, like the hidden phase of the TMgs.

i'm not talking about an entire cosmology

 

[XDragnoir]

After finishing GT8:

Thebes's is without a doubt the less impressive of all the Transcendents we've seen.

I didn't see the plot twist coming.

The result of the ceremony was a disappointment, IMO, we didn't need a new piece in the board yet, much less a piece like that.

Kamachi's inconsistency when it comes to power level makes it a pain to even understand how much of a threat we're even talking about 99% of the time.

 

[Aseka]

Thebes's is without a doubt the less impressive of all the Transcendents we've seen

I thought her more destructive than Trismegistus.

 

[Aseka]

GT 9 will be Legend vs Legend. Still waiting Accelerator to get out from the shadows.

 

[XDragnoir]

I thought her more destructive than Trismegistus.

There was this quote about his magic that makes me doubt that a bit:

Aradia and the Bologna Succubus’s spells were supposedly powerful enough to fight the entire magic side on their own. Same for Good, Old Mary’s resurrection.

Was Trismegistus the same?

He could infuse his sharp blade into any phenomenon, so if he wasn’t afraid of cutting himself, could he fill this entire universe with miniscule death and destruction?

Not only that, but his final clash with Good Mary kinda implies he is at a level that universe level magic (her Tribikos) was needed to fight him.

The best we had about Mut Thebes is Touma thinking that she could probably absorb Grimoires and maybe even Index through their shadows... but copying normal weapons? Even the Cruiser Bird isn't half as impressive as some shit that happened back in OT, even OT1 had Jonh's Pen and the Dragon Breath.

 

[Aseka]

The best we had about Mut Thebes is Touma thinking that she could probably absorb Grimoires and maybe even Index through their shadows... but copying normal weapons? Even the Cruiser Bird isn't half as impressive as some shit that happened back in OT, even OT1 had Jonh's Pen and the Dragon Breath.

Mut can create a duplicate of a body, so I think it's arguable to think Mut is on level Trismegistus. Sadly, maybe this was the end of that Transcendents debut. I think there's nothing they can do against CRC. Alice was broken. Anna dying. The only way Anna can survive is with Alice's help. Really, this CRC guy is stunning enough with his lore reveals and plot twist. I hope Kamachi will bring more lore in next volumes.

 

[Piamma]

There was this quote about his magic that makes me doubt that a bit:

Aradia and the Bologna Succubus’s spells were supposedly powerful enough to fight the entire magic side on their own. Same for Good, Old Mary’s resurrection.

Was Trismegistus the same?

He could infuse his sharp blade into any phenomenon, so if he wasn’t afraid of cutting himself, could he fill this entire universe with miniscule death and destruction?

Not only that, but his final clash with Good Mary kinda implies he is at a level that universe level magic (her Tribikos) was needed to fight him.

The best we had about Mut Thebes is Touma thinking that she could probably absorb Grimoires and maybe even Index through their shadows... but copying normal weapons? Even the Cruiser Bird isn't half as impressive as some shit that happened back in OT, even OT1 had Jonh's Pen and the Dragon Breath.

I really sympathize with the part about being disappointed in her performance.
At best, she can absorb 10 300-meter-class aircraft carriers, and to be honest, she's not even as good as a Saint based on what she's shown.

She is so shabby compared to the other Transcendents .

 

[XDragnoir]

Mut can create a duplicate of a body, so I think it's arguable to think Mut is on level Trismegistus.

If we take that comment about Megis as a valid thing he can do, we're talking about someone with Universe level AOE and basically the power to kill anything from the inside, meanwhile Mut not only is dependent on outside objects to use her magic but these objects don't seem any strengthened from the original either.

Sadly, maybe this was the end of that Transcendents debut. I think there's nothing they can do against CRC. Alice was broken. Anna dying. The only way Anna can survive is with Alice's help. Really, this CRC guy is stunning enough with his lore reveals and plot twist. I hope Kamachi will bring more lore in next volumes.

Ehhhhh, I really dislike CRC, we are not even in GT10 yet and we are already talking about a 3rd main villain?

OT didn't really have main villains until God's Right Seat appeared. NT had Gremlin at the start, then much later we got True Gremlin and Coronzon in the end (Kamisato Faction too, but that one doesn't count as main villain IMO).

GT started with RC Ocultics and Anna, then GT4 ends that route for a much bigger threat with the Transcendents... which were completely fodderized now.

He was just introduced so I may be overthinking, but he doesn't seem like a 1 Volume enemy.

 

[Aseka]

Do someone have any evidence that Original grimoire have High type regen?

 

[Zensum]

Do someone have any evidence that Original grimoire have High type regen?

I don't know about High type regen, but there's a lot of quotes like this and characters from Kanzaki and Birdway to Aleister and Coronzon saying they can't be destroyed.

“Before, you said that this planet and this universe will eventually be destroyed. However, humans have already created something that is similar to a truly eternal life.”
“?”
“Original grimoires.”

“No one can destroy an original grimoire.” Birdway grabbed a juice box from out of the air and tossed it away again once she realized it was already empty. “An original grimoire is a collection of high-purity magical knowledge and each page, topic, and diagram acts like a high-level magic circle. You could say it is an autonomous magical device. They gather up the faint power leaking from leylines, amplify it hundreds of times, and create thorough defenses and counter attacks in order to ensure that not even a tiny bit of the knowledge held within itself is destroyed. This effect does not allow any natural weathering of the parchment and prevents it from being destroyed even if all sorts of magicians work together in a group.”

“If the base itself has been turned into armor, this could be quite bad. If it has the same toughness as an original grimoire, none of humanity’s current techniques can destroy it.”

The hand Aleister held like a piece of fried chicken crumbled like a knot had come undone and it transformed into several cards. The wind carried them over to Mathers and his lost hand regenerated.
A true grimoire could not be destroyed by any method.
That was why the Anglican Church had created the grimoire library known as Index Librorum Prohibitorum.

“You have more than 103,000 grimoires memories, don’t you? And original grimoires can repair themselves, so why would they need human help?”

 

[Churronzon]

Coronzon's statement on grimoires.

“An original grimoire cannot be destroyed by humans. Even if you can temporarily
damage it, it will automatically absorb power from the ley lines to repair itself.”

Coronzon tapped her foot on the floor where one of Dion Fortune’s marks was projected.

“But that only repairs the original grimoire aspect of it. It does not care about Dion
Fortune’s personality. I was not interested in having these cards provide knowledge as a
grimoire. I had redirected that ability in a harmless direction in order to construct and
preserve the artificial personality, but...because some idiot worked a little too hard and
took a direct hit, that stopper was broken in Mathers and the others. As things are, the
auto-repair function will erase all of the small marks on the cards and they will return to
being blank slates. They will be pure and meaningless original grimoires.”

Coronzon compares grimoires to other stuff that refuse to break down.

“It might look like the flow of time mercilessly wears down all things, but there is far too
much exceptional salvation in this world: Imagine Breaker, the Magic Gods, the original
grimoires, resurrected Lilith, Aiwass who resurrected her...and me, Great Demon
Coronzon.”

Coronzon's grimoire-based recreations of Golden Dawn members would calmly fight Magic Gods like Aleister once did.

...Really, she’s probably the only Golden magician who
would back down so easily. Especially in their current state where they would probably
calmly challenge a god even after having half their body blown away.”

Do someone have any evidence that Original grimoire have High type regen?

Is that from Grimoire Mathers profile? I feel like it could use better justification.

 

[Aseka]

Is that from Grimoire Mathers profile? I feel like it could use better justification.

Yes, it's reason being High type regen doesn't make sense. That's why I asked about this.

 

[Doggo]

Guys big news

Misaka is appearing for the next deathbattle

 

[Churronzon]

Lord help them

---

Misaka's Railgun got upgraded in one of Fanta's CRTs so I'll be applying the upgrade to a few of the same characters that scaled off this prior CRT (Rensa, Kuroyoru, and the Railgun Five Over.) It's already applied for Yuiitsu, Kagun, Salome, Kinuhata, and Dragon Shell Touma.

However, I don't know how to word stuff like the Five Over's durability that already started with a likely conditional.
Would it just be "likely at least Multi-City block level+" without the "likely Town level" rating or would it get a "possibly town level" rating?

Bringing this up since I requested this for the Magic Gods' Striking Strength, but I neglected to realize that they lost their "likely far higher rating" so I don't know if that needs fixing still.

---

If I'm not mistaken, Rensa should be 7-B with Misaka's lightning strikes.

 

[XDragnoir]

Guys big news

Misaka is appearing for the next deathbattle

Killua is ******, sadge

 

[DontTalkDT]

Do someone have any evidence that Original grimoire have High type regen?

It comes from the fact that Aleister couldn't destroy them by regular means despite being able to drop Big Bang bombs. So either they would need 3-A durability or the regeneration to endure a big bang bomb despite not having durability close to it (which is High Regeneration). The latter is more consistent, as we know they regenerate (Mathers lost an arm and regenerated) while knowing that they can be harmed by far less (Mathers lost the arm due to an attack with double the power of Academy City's space laser).

So that was simply the most consistent explanation based on what we see.

After finishing GT8:

Thebes's is without a doubt the less impressive of all the Transcendents we've seen.

Debatable. She is least impressive given the circumstances of fighting in a city of science. The narration implied that her technique can also take magical weapons, like Original Grimoirs, or people like Index.
If she fought magicians, whose magic items she can steal, she would probably be a lot more OP. Especially since in Index in particular most magicians should use some of those.

Speaking of Curtana, does Coronzon's temple barrier have resistance to space-cutting since it can't be cut by it?

Could also be a range issue, seeing as Curtana can only cut space in a few meters distance and teh barriers work by putting a "world" between the outside and inside.

Mut Thebes can withstand Aleister attack while he borrowing 333 Dispersion name, Coronzon.

I would not scale her of that.

For one, there is a lower showing.

She lay face up on the ground, painfully aware she had squashed a sidewalk flower bed below her rear. That was meaningless destruction. The flowers were not her target and would not boost her strength. They weren’t even in the way of her job. A punisher was meant to minimize destruction and only use it to keep the peace.

She heard a heavy metallic clang.

A lot like someone had dropped a wok onto the pavement.

(But it’s a good thing I chose the composite armor at the last second. Reactive armor sounds cool, but an armor piercing round would have passed right through it.)

This seems to suggest that Mut actually had to put up armor against a 120mm bullet.

Aradia has a few more, but one can argue they don't scale to each other, I suppose.

That would of course not be a problem if the feat was solid, but...

A difference in strength was a nonissue. No matter who she was up against, she would eventually fill the gap in strength with a snowball effect. She was a Transcendent of the Bridge Builders Cabal. That meant she used a broken spell that could singlehandedly achieve victory against the entirety of the magic side if used right.

So more than that, she felt surprise from the side of her that was a punishment expert.

(She didn’t even check to see if her defeated enemy was dead? That Anna Kingsford must be too strong. A strange concept.)

Mut more or less admits that her opponent's power was overwhelming and mentions how they didn't care enough to even check if they had actually defeated her. For all intents and purposes, Aleister swatted away a fly and the fly happened to survive. It's like regular soldiers that can taken out by Captain America in one punch but don't die.

(I don't remember them going supersonic at any moment, for example, but it's been a long time since GT7)

There is the Succubus feat from GT 6 that is arguably supersonic, but I'm sceptical if we should scale it, and Transcendent stats in general, to others.

Kamijou had a very, very bad feeling about this, so he clung tightly to the demoness’s hips as a tremor ran through the thousands or tens of thousands of glass shards. Someone’s willpower entered them and then they all rushed toward him.

The transparent blades attacked from all sides with the speed of bullets, but their guided routes actually gave the Bologna Succubus an opportunity. She flew to the right, pulling the many shards with her, and then flapped her wings to launch herself the other way, slipping herself into the gap created when they gathered on the right. She just barely managed to fit through the opening in the surrounding glass.

 

[Zensum]

js06 @js_06
Upcoming Kamachi LN Releases:
August: A Certain Dark Side's Item 2

In case anyone missed it.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

It comes from the fact that Aleister couldn't destroy them by regular means despite being able to drop Big Bang bombs. So either they would need 3-A durability or the regeneration to endure a big bang bomb despite not having durability close to it (which is High Regeneration). The latter is more consistent, as we know they regenerate (Mathers lost an arm and regenerated) while knowing that they can be harmed by far less (Mathers lost the arm due to an attack with double the power of Academy City's space laser).

So that was simply the most consistent explanation based on what we see.

Have no horse in this race whatsoever, but... isn't this arbitrary to give a person that high level regen based solely on something purely hypothetical and not even vaguely implied in the novels? Like if my memory is correct the only showing of regen from Mathers was the arm thing, which is low-mid, and the Big Bang Bomb x10 was only shown and mentioned in NT18 and never again.

Honestly, the bigger problem is Aleister himself saying there is a massive difference of power between Mathers and him, him considering Mathers was possibly even stronger than Coronzon, and Coronzon or the narrator herself stating Mathers' specs were better than his and he was also superior to Aleister no matter what he does despite her absolutely knowing about the Big Bang Bomb X10, and all of this information is in this pastebin.

In case anyone missed it.

Ah, sweet. Really hope that the ITEM spinoff continues for a good while, honestly.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

I would not scale her of that.

For one, there is a lower showing.

This seems to suggest that Mut actually had to put up armor against a 120mm bullet.

Aradia has a few more, but one can argue they don't scale to each other, I suppose.

That would of course not be a problem if the feat was solid, but...

Mut more or less admits that her opponent's power was overwhelming and mentions how they didn't care enough to even check if they had actually defeated her. For all intents and purposes, Aleister swatted away a fly and the fly happened to survive. It's like regular soldiers that can taken out by Captain America in one punch but don't die.

I also have to argue against this point as well. Through the entirety of the passage and the stuff you cut off, Mut only regarded Kingsford and never once mentioned or even referred to Aleister - heck, Mut also just focuses on making countermeasures for Kingsford if they ever met again, which seems to imply that Kingford was the only to defeat her and not Aleister

Mut Thebes’s right half was embedded in a wall. And not close to the ground either. That wall was on the side of a bungee jump platform.

Aleister and Kingsford had already moved on.

Academy City’s focus must have followed them because the siren had stopped.

“………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………”

The brown girl cracked her neck as she extracted herself from the wall and used the simple elevator to reach the ground.

(Ordinary airbags are surprisingly useful.)

She tore away the deflated white shape tangled around her skinny frame.

A difference in strength was a nonissue. No matter who she was up against, she would eventually fill the gap in strength with a snowball effect. She was a Transcendent of the Bridge Builders Cabal. That meant she used a broken spell that could singlehandedly achieve victory against the entirety of the magic side if used right.

So more than that, she felt surprise from the side of her that was a punishment expert.

(She didn’t even check to see if her defeated enemy was dead? That Anna Kingsford must be too strong. A strange concept.)

“Brr, it’s cold.”

Mut Thebes shivered and held herself. She wanted to get this job done with and head back home where it was warm. Hopefully the consulate still existed.

The commotion had grown a lot.

Those Anti-Skill people had decided their checkpoints weren’t working and had started to spread out more. They used tanks, armored vehicles, and what were those other ones called? Whatever they were, Mut Thebes doubted those puny tools would be enough to repel Kingsford.

That woman was not Mut Thebes’s target, but it was worth coming up with a plan for her if she insisted on interfering with this punishment job.

Needless to say, Kingsford did not fit the brown girl’s conditions for salvation.

(But this could be a problem. Kingsford isn’t a Transcendent, so the Shrink Drink won’t work on her the way it will for the other Anna.)

There is also this.

“Now, I it is to get moving,” whispered Anna Kingsford.

Miss Sprengel, Mut Thebes, and Kamijou Touma. When she had asked who to target and pursue with her divination, her injured student had given the following answer.

“It is to find the one we must defeat.”

Aleister got injured. The only combat encounter Aleister's group had, 'side the stuff in the end, was Mut Thebes. Aleister used Coronzon's magic, which doesn't have any recoil like Aleister's magic does, so the only person who could've gave Aleister injuries is... Mut Thebes and nobody else.

 

[Aseka]

Big Bang bombs

So Big Bang bombs could destroy matter?

 

[Aseka]

In case anyone missed it.

GT 9 will much longer to release.

 

[DontTalkDT]

So Big Bang bombs could destroy matter?

No, but they would disintegrate everything down to the quantum level.

Have no horse in this race whatsoever, but... isn't this arbitrary to give a person that high level regen based solely on something purely hypothetical and not even vaguely implied in the novels? Like if my memory is correct the only showing of regen from Mathers was the arm thing, which is low-mid, and the Big Bang Bomb x10 was only shown and mentioned in NT18 and never again.

¯\(ツ)/¯
Aleister admitted that he couldn't kill him the regular way IIRC and the story proceeded based on that reasoning. And since it's a technique that Aleister can pull out whenever... Like, if this were durability scaling...

I also have to argue against this point as well. Through the entirety of the passage and the stuff you cut off, Mut only regarded Kingsford and never once mentioned or even referred to Aleister - heck, Mut also just focuses on making countermeasures for Kingsford if they ever met again, which seems to imply that Kingford was the only to defeat her and not Aleister

There is also this.

Aleister got injured. The only combat encounter Aleister's group had, 'side the stuff in the end, was Mut Thebes. Aleister used Coronzon's magic, which doesn't have any recoil like Aleister's magic does, so the only person who could've gave Aleister injuries is... Mut Thebes and nobody else.

Aleister could only summon Coronzon due to Kingsford's help, so it would make sense that Mut credits her. And most see her as the more dangerous of the two anyway...

And I'm not sure Aleister summoning Coronzon has no recoil? Like, the recoil from Aleister's magic comes from him containing the sparks. For anyone else it would have no recoil. (Weirdly enough, this is also a callback to chapter 1, so I'm not sure whether it doesn't refer to an earlier Aleister. Could also refer to his mental state seeing how he kinda is in the gutter right now. We're kinda low on information)