Toaru Discussion thread New Fourms #1

[XDragnoir]

At least this one seems to have a plausible idea behind it, instead of randomly being magic god level. In the sense that it is a magician developed specifically to counter them.

I don't see how it is a plausible idea, it's a random magician that can, for some reason, null magic that the strongest magicians of the universe can use.

Not a Da'at demon with a specific MG spell, not people receiving power from the Secret Chiefs.

Even if the idea of it being a "specific counter" may sound plausible, the fact someone can achieve a magical level to fully counter them to begin with isn't plausible without some external help (like a Secret Chief), and being able to counter the strongest in the universe but being defeated by random magicians would be silly, so I doubt she is that much of a specific counter either.

 

[Doggo]

Magic Gods starting to feel like fodder


Kamachi really needs to fix his power progression

Hot take: Kamijou's story should have ended on NT. Kamachi should have focused on different characters afterwards, the world feels so small nowadays with Touma always the focus.

 

[XDragnoir]

Magic Gods starting to feel like fodder


Kamachi really needs to fix his power progression

Hot take: Kamijou's story should have ended on NT. Kamachi should have focused on different characters afterwards, the world feels so small nowadays with Touma always the focus.

I would agree if Touma's beyond the right hand powers were not still a mystery, overall tho I agree that this mystery should have been solved already and Touma could step down from the spotlight for a bit, Post-NT.

Like, c'mon, we had True Gremlin, Aleister and Coronzon as central characters during NT, they all have full knowledge about Touma's other powers and yet they don't say a damn thing to Touma or to us the readers at the very least.

It got to a point where NT22 and 22R were seemingly changing Beyond Powers forever (fish eggs/swarm, an entire new sentient being that can use IB and a dragon shell) just for IT to appear again as if nothing had changed in GT7 to kill a stupid Griffon.

 

[Zensum]

I don't see how it is a plausible idea, it's a random magician that can, for some reason, null magic that the strongest magicians of the universe can use.

Not a Da'at demon with a specific MG spell, not people receiving power from the Secret Chiefs.

Even if the idea of it being a "specific counter" may sound plausible, the fact someone can achieve a magical level to fully counter them to begin with isn't plausible without some external help (like a Secret Chief), and being able to counter the strongest in the universe but being defeated by random magicians would be silly, so I doubt she is that much of a specific counter either.

Someone whose read some of it said she's kinda full of hot air.
Her counter, the 13th Tarot ability seems to be similar to Hel. She manipulates all forms of deaths, turning death symbols (like Osiris' disremembering, Odin's impaling and so on) into her assets, using it in form offense and defense, but this ability may be useless on dead people and is virtually impossible to pull off on a full power Magic God.
But it's an IF-original arc so it's no use in thinking too hard about it tbh tbh.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Regarding Toaru's discussion rule:

• Please avoid trying to upgrade To Aru characters to Tier 1-A or above, as this is highly contradicted by other parts of this work of fiction.

This rule was added at https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/VS_Battles_Wiki?diff=190943&oldid=190403. However, I would contend that it's not necessary at all anymore, as it's from before discussion rules had a separate page and a time when the 1-A standards were drastically different, and I couldn't even find the thread that added it. Unless someone can prove that this problem still persists, we should remove this rule.
@Antvasima @DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @Agnaa @Everything12 Is this acceptable?

 

[XDragnoir]

However, I would contend that it's not necessary at all anymore, as it's from before discussion rules had a separate page and a time when the 1-A standards were drastically different, and I couldn't even find the thread that added it. Unless someone can prove that this problem still persists, we should remove this rule.

Hmmm, that rule really doesn't mean anything anymore due to the new 1A standards and I doubt people would try upgrading MGs to 1A the moment we remove that rule.

But, if instead of removing we reworded it to only include information regarding Old and New Testament Toaru, the rule would stop any future useless threads but wouldn't stop threads based on new information from Genesis Testament.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Hmmm, that rule really doesn't mean anything anymore due to the new 1A standards and I doubt people would try upgrading MGs to 1A the moment we remove that rule.

But, if instead of removing we reworded it to only include information regarding Old and New Testament Toaru, the rule would stop any future useless threads but wouldn't stop threads based on new information from Genesis Testament.

I still maintain that, as of the wiki's current situation, this rule is useless and unnecessary.

 

[XDragnoir]

I still maintain that, as of the wiki's current situation, this rule is useless and unnecessary.

Either removing or rewording it is fine IMO, it changes absolutely nothing with the amount of info we have so far anyway (we can barely argue something higher than 11D to begin with).

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Regarding Toaru's discussion rule:

This rule was added at https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/VS_Battles_Wiki?diff=190943&oldid=190403. However, I would contend that it's not necessary at all anymore, as it's from before discussion rules had a separate page and a time when the 1-A standards were drastically different, and I couldn't even find the thread that added it. Unless someone can prove that this problem still persists, we should remove this rule.
@Antvasima @DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @Agnaa @Everything12 Is this acceptable?

@Antvasima @DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @Agnaa @Everything12

 

[Antvasima]

I think that it seems fine to remove that rule if it is heavily outdated.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Kihara Yuiitsu

Kihara Yuiitsu is a member of the Kihara family who appeared at the end of the Baggage City incident to negotiate with the cooperative organizations that had rebelled against Academy City. Yuiitsu is also Kihara Noukan's devoted student and the person who turned Yakumi Hisako, one of the members...

vsbattles.fandom.com

She lacks justifications for her stats. Anyone remember who she physically scales to? I guess probably from fighting Touma, right?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I think that it seems fine to remove that rule if it is heavily outdated.

Thank you. I have removed it.

Discussion Rules

VS Battles Wiki is a site where the members attempt to index the statistics of characters across different fictional franchises. These efforts lead to much discussion about certain feats, statements and calculations regarding their validity, reliability, etc. However, certain topics keep popping...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[XDragnoir]

Kihara Yuiitsu

Kihara Yuiitsu is a member of the Kihara family who appeared at the end of the Baggage City incident to negotiate with the cooperative organizations that had rebelled against Academy City. Yuiitsu is also Kihara Noukan's devoted student and the person who turned Yakumi Hisako, one of the members...

vsbattles.fandom.com

She lacks justifications for her stats. Anyone remember who she physically scales to? I guess probably from fighting Touma, right?

She scales to Salome and got minor damage from a direct Large Caliber Railgun.

Also, her P&A is horrendous as it is, it names way too many verse specific things without explaining what most of them give/allow her to do.

 

[DontTalkDT]

She scales to Salome and got minor damage from a direct Large Caliber Railgun.

Didn't she deflect Salome's attacks and the railgun via the coat redirection technique? I think that would probably be separate?

 

[XDragnoir]

Didn't she deflect Salome's attacks and the railgun via the coat redirection technique? I think that would probably be separate?

That seems to be the case for Salome's attacks and her profile already says that, only attacks she took directly (at least that I could remember/find) were two punches from Kamisato that KOed her. Tho I want to add that she clearly had the upperhand during her fight with Kuroko in MO, so she should scale to the same value as Kuroko, regardless of her interaction with Kamisato.

And this is for the LCR:

"A moment later, all sound and light vanished.
It did not move at three times the speed of sound. It did not have the small mass of an
arcade coin. This blast had been made to create a crater out of a fortress designed to
withstand even the most powerful tank.
In all seriousness, a slight mistake in calculation would have swept away an entire section
of Academy City’s buildings.
If the District 7’s Windowless Building had not acted as a cushion, the damage would have
spread without end.
Kihara Yuiitsu’s body vanished as it was torn away from Kamjiou. The boy could not hold
his ground either. He was sent flying into the air and he slammed into the branches of a
roadside tree when the shockwave nearly blew him away." (NT15)

Here is all we have about the time she got hit by the LCR, no mention towards she using the lab coat, which I don't recall being used against blast attacks such as a Railgun to begin with (the coat was stated to already be tattered earlier, btw), and regardless of that the lab coat thing is just a way to divert the direction of the attacks, which we clearly see didn't happen here (otherwise she wouldn't have been damaged and sent flying away to begin with).

 

[DontTalkDT]

That seems to be the case for Salome's attacks and her profile already says that, only attacks she took directly (at least that I could remember/find) were two punches from Kamisato that KOed her. Tho I want to add that she clearly had the upperhand during her fight with Kuroko in MO, so she should scale to the same value as Kuroko, regardless of her interaction with Kamisato.

And this is for the LCR:

"A moment later, all sound and light vanished.
It did not move at three times the speed of sound. It did not have the small mass of an
arcade coin. This blast had been made to create a crater out of a fortress designed to
withstand even the most powerful tank.
In all seriousness, a slight mistake in calculation would have swept away an entire section
of Academy City’s buildings.
If the District 7’s Windowless Building had not acted as a cushion, the damage would have
spread without end.
Kihara Yuiitsu’s body vanished as it was torn away from Kamjiou. The boy could not hold
his ground either. He was sent flying into the air and he slammed into the branches of a
roadside tree when the shockwave nearly blew him away." (NT15)

Here is all we have about the time she got hit by the LCR, no mention towards she using the lab coat, which I don't recall being used against blast attacks such as a Railgun to begin with (the coat was stated to already be tattered earlier, btw), and regardless of that the lab coat thing is just a way to divert the direction of the attacks, which we clearly see didn't happen here (otherwise she wouldn't have been damaged and sent flying away to begin with).

Kuroko scaling sounds ok.
LCR scaling... well...

Meanwhile, a woman had much more than a nosebleed. Her entire body had been torn apart and she lay in a pool of blood.

It was Kihara Yuiitsu.

But even that was not fatal.

Something crawled all over her body. It was Sample Shoggoth. Just as it had forcibly sewn on Kamisato Kakeru’s hand, it sewed together the laceration all over her body.

She had lost quite a bit of blood, but she could get a blood transfusion or, if she could not get one in time, use an IV of boiled saline to at least avoid too large a drop in blood pressure. In her current state, she would be lucky just to avoid going into shock from blood loss.

Judging by the aftermath, I would say it shot straight through her. More a regeneration than a durability feat, I would say.
Well, one could argue that she at least endured the shockwave without disintegrating, which launched Touma around. Another reason to scale her to that group.

---

Finally making some progress on preparing the physical stats revision btw. Finished going through all profiles to sort through who scales to what now. Found a number of people that probably get upgraded as well, as scaling from past revisions wasn't properly applied.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[XDragnoir]

Judging by the aftermath, I would say it shot straight through her. More a regeneration than a durability feat, I would say.
Well, one could argue that she at least endured the shockwave without disintegrating, which launched Touma around. Another reason to scale her to that group.

That's... relative, when you say "it shot straight through her" do you mean it pierced her from one side to the other?

First, I have to say that's completely illogical from the quote I provided above or the one you sent, the one you sent clearly says it wasn't letal and only gave her lacerations, no mention to a massive hole (and it would have to be massive, normal Railguns already cause massive holes, this is a Large Caliber one).

Second, I am not suggesting direct scaling, but this is more than enough for backscaling.

Finally making some progress on preparing the physical stats revision btw. Finished going through all profiles to sort through who scales to what now. Found a number of people that probably get upgraded as well, as scaling from past revisions wasn't properly applied.

That's good, I hope you can post it soon.

 

[Zensum]

GT9 in December according to the IF livestream. (No Degenki confirmation yet)
NT1 (YenPress) in December too.

 

[XDragnoir]

I just noticed some of our profiles like Kakine and Mathers have it to be upgraded to 6B, is it due to time constraints or something changed in regard to them and their scaling that I am not aware?

Or they will be updated with the stats CRT DT said the other day?

 

[DontTalkDT]

That's... relative, when you say "it shot straight through her" do you mean it pierced her from one side to the other?

First, I have to say that's completely illogical from the quote I provided above or the one you sent, the one you sent clearly says it wasn't letal and only gave her lacerations, no mention to a massive hole (and it would have to be massive, normal Railguns already cause massive holes, this is a Large Caliber one).

Second, I am not suggesting direct scaling, but this is more than enough for backscaling.

It notes that "her entire body had been torn apart". I would say getting a hole blown through her by the shot would match that description.

What the not lethal part is concerned: It's not lethal for her, but not because it wouldn't be lethal to a regular human. It notes that she had already lost so much blood that she was lucky not to go into shock and if the Sample Soggoth hadn't stitched her up she would have lost more.

I think what is meant is that it is not lethal for her because the Sample Shoggoth is piercing her back together.

I just noticed some of our profiles like Kakine and Mathers have it to be upgraded to 6B, is it due to time constraints or something changed in regard to them and their scaling that I am not aware?

Or they will be updated with the stats CRT DT said the other day?

High tiers have inconsistent scaling right now, because some revision were only half applied. One would need to make a thread on whether we want to actually apply the revision completely or revert it. Currently, things are stuck in limbo in that regard as we don't have a proper decision on what to do.

My thread will for now not handle those. Figured the other stuff is already enough.

 

[DontTalkDT]

ToAru Physical Stats Revision (Low to Mid Tiers) - Let's Fix That Scaling

So the ToAru (physical) Low-Tiers are currently ranked 8-B. This comes from a feat, which had already been decided to be removed in a past thread. Hence we have a lot of characters which need new physical stats. Furthermore, many revisions were apparently applied without properly updating the...

vsbattles.com

Here's the big thread. It's actually not all that long, all things considered. Time to tell me that I missed 20 things and have to rethink everything.

 

[XDragnoir]

It notes that "her entire body had been torn apart". I would say getting a hole blown through her by the shot would match that description.

I have "torn apart" and "pierced through" as two completely different things, so it would be good to have someone else's opinion here.

What the not lethal part is concerned: It's not lethal for her, but not because it wouldn't be lethal to a regular human. It notes that she had already lost so much blood that she was lucky not to go into shock and if the Sample Soggoth hadn't stitched her up she would have lost more.

Which... doesn't make sense? Yuiitsu isn't Kakine, her healing with Shoggoth is limited to sewing things together, she can't create entirely new organs with it and shock from losing blood is still different from... how do I put this... having a hole the size of a go through your torso, which Kamachi would have pointed out of if that was the case, but the only damage he mentions is loss of blood and, guess what, lacerations, which fit being "torn apart" more than if it was an entire "hole through her body".

High tiers have inconsistent scaling right now, because some revision were only half applied. One would need to make a thread on whether we want to actually apply the revision completely or revert it. Currently, things are stuck in limbo in that regard as we don't have a proper decision on what to do.

My thread will for now not handle those. Figured the other stuff is already enough.

I don't think we have any reason to revert any of the upgrades? At least not any of the recent ones, you have it to do something about the 8B downgrade iirc.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I have "torn apart" and "pierced through" as two completely different things, so it would be good to have someone else's opinion here.

They are not synonymous, but in my book torn apart means more than skin-deep injuries. More in the direction of "some pieces of you separated from the rest". Like, a paper that is torn apart would usually be expected to be in 2 or more separate pieces. So I think it's not unreasonable to assume that her body didn't catch the shot based on that.

Which... doesn't make sense? Yuiitsu isn't Kakine, her healing with Shoggoth is limited to sewing things together, she can't create entirely new organs with it and shock from losing blood is still different from... how do I put this... having a hole the size of a go through your torso, which Kamachi would have pointed out of if that was the case, but the only damage he mentions is loss of blood and, guess what, lacerations, which fit being "torn apart" more than if it was an entire "hole through her body".

I wouldn't call lacerations alone being torn apart.
And I'm not sure if the railgun projectile is as large as you describe it.

What the healing is concerned: It could stitch the blown-off body part back unto her. Like, it even notes in the quote how the thing can straight up connect a hand back unto an arm.

I don't think we have any reason to revert any of the upgrades? At least not any of the recent ones, you have it to do something about the 8B downgrade iirc.

Some of the calcs they were based on are not approved anymore, I believe.

 

[XDragnoir]

ToAru Physical Stats Revision (Low to Mid Tiers) - Let's Fix That Scaling

So the ToAru (physical) Low-Tiers are currently ranked 8-B. This comes from a feat, which had already been decided to be removed in a past thread. Hence we have a lot of characters which need new physical stats. Furthermore, many revisions were apparently applied without properly updating the...

vsbattles.com

Here's the big thread. It's actually not all that long, all things considered. Time to tell me that I missed 20 things and have to rethink everything.

Are you planning to do a 6b thread after this one is finished? Although some discussion is happening I doubt this thread will take long to be solved.

Because 6B has lots of missing and somewhat wrong scaling.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Are you planning to do a 6b thread after this one is finished? Although some discussion is happening I doubt this thread will take long to be solved.

Because 6B has lots of missing and somewhat wrong scaling.

I can put it as the next thing unto my list, yeah.

 

[XDragnoir]

I wouldn't call lacerations alone being torn apart.
And I'm not sure if the railgun projectile is as large as you describe it.

Bro, you're claiming she had a whole damn hole that simply went completely undescribed and you think "lacerations" don't fit what being torn apart means? Also, torn apart is different from split apart

Did you see the hole it tore through the HsAFH? Or the wind turbine? What do you think would happen with an human body? Indeed:

What the healing is concerned: It could stitch the blown-off body part back unto her. Like, it even notes in the quote how the thing can straight up connect a hand back unto an arm.

My man, a normal railgun vaporized that wind turbine, you think it would just remove her organs from the inside? She'd be vaporized.

Some of the calcs they were based on are not approved anymore, I believe.

Such as? Because we still have several 6Bs so many many things would have to change if we're talking about removed calcs, as everyone scales to the same feats.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Bro, you're claiming she had a whole damn hole that simply went completely undescribed and you think "lacerations" don't fit what being torn apart means? Also, torn apart is different from split apart

Did you see the hole it tore through the HsAFH? Or the wind turbine? What do you think would happen with an human body? Indeed:

My man, a normal railgun vaporized that wind turbine, you think it would just remove her organs from the inside? She'd be vaporized.

Counterpoint: Touma is noted to stand literally 3mm away from her. If you wish to argue that the shockwaves should do such massive damage, then chances are Misaka's precisely adjusted shot was done so as to not land a direct hit as it would have otherwise killed or heavily injured Touma as well. Strictly speaking, the novel at no point says that the projectile directly impacts her.

In fact, Yuiitsu must either have been shot through or missed, as the novel does bother to mention that the bullet was ultimately stopped by the windowless building.

In all seriousness, a slight mistake in calculation would have swept away an entire section of Academy City’s buildings.

If the District 7’s Windowless Building had not acted as a cushion, the damage would have spread without end.

There is no way the bullet was stopped by her body.

Such as? Because we still have several 6Bs so many many things would have to change if we're talking about removed calcs, as everyone scales to the same feats.

Looking at it, it seems the Sweep calc I was thinking of got removed already. Are all 6-Bs based on the Gabriel explosion one now?

 

[Dog3352]

Could anyone answer my questions about the stages in the World of To Aru?
1. What exactly are these phases? Worlds (universes)?
2. Phases are not higher dimensions, right? Is it due to lack of evidence (context)?

Apparently, beings from a phase cannot perceive beings from lower or higher phases (?), this is not considered a higher dimension due to the fact that it has not been explored further (lack of evidence), and because someone from a phase cannot even perceive someone from a lower phase, which wouldn't sound like a higher dimension?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Could anyone answer my questions about the stages in the World of To Aru?
1. What exactly are these phases? Worlds (universes)?
2. Phases are not higher dimensions, right? Is it due to lack of evidence (context)?

Apparently, beings from a phase cannot perceive beings from lower or higher phases (?), this is not considered a higher dimension due to the fact that it has not been explored further (lack of evidence), and because someone from a phase cannot even perceive someone from a lower phase, which wouldn't sound like a higher dimension?

The simplest way to imagine phases is basically as additional universes or pocket realms, which exist separately across an additional dimensional axis like 'frequency'. You can only perceive the phase you have the same position, i.e. frequency, as.
Some, but not all, phases would be 11D just like the main universe is due to being copies of it.

 

[XDragnoir]

Counterpoint: Touma is noted to stand literally 3mm away from her. If you wish to argue that the shockwaves should do such massive damage, then chances are Misaka's precisely adjusted shot was done so as to not land a direct hit as it would have otherwise killed or heavily injured Touma as well. Strictly speaking, the novel at no point says that the projectile directly impacts her.

Make up your mind, did it pierce through her body or did it not even impact her body? We've seen other railguns before, they don't cause lots of damage to things close to the target as long as Mikoto aims it carefully (some openings explicitly show they just sending people flying away like what happened to Touma here, btw).

In fact, Yuiitsu must either have been shot through or missed, as the novel does bother to mention that the bullet was ultimately stopped by the windowless building.

Even if it missed, a shockwave that could have covered an entire section of AC is still a really good feat and she would have to be really close to it anyway.

Looking at it, it seems the Sweep calc I was thinking of got removed already. Are all 6-Bs based on the Gabriel explosion one now?

The feat they scale to is that one, yeah, but there is Gabriel's on top of it that the profiles don't seem to acknowledge yet.

 

[Dog3352]

Is this NT22 statement saying that a higher level phase is a macrocosm of the lower level phase?

"Each of the sage weapons that this Magic God had created by transforming her fingers were used to manage the vast power of a Shijie-Xian by dividing it up into genres: attack, defense, recovery, close-quarters, ranged, etc. These miracles would cancel each other out and refuse to mix if they were combined, so she was essentially constructing walls between them, placing them in separate frames, and preserving their purity. Just as magic power and ley lines were similar yet different things, the macrocosm of the planet and the microcosm of the body were linked. The scale was different, but it was the same phenomenon as the world’s phase system that divided up the different legends and managed them in their own realms that existed on different levels."

Or is the "microcosm and macrocosm" part just an example/analogy?

 

[Zensum]

Is this NT22 statement saying that a higher level phase is a macrocosm of the lower level phase?

"Each of the sage weapons that this Magic God had created by transforming her fingers were used to manage the vast power of a Shijie-Xian by dividing it up into genres: attack, defense, recovery, close-quarters, ranged, etc. These miracles would cancel each other out and refuse to mix if they were combined, so she was essentially constructing walls between them, placing them in separate frames, and preserving their purity. Just as magic power and ley lines were similar yet different things, the macrocosm of the planet and the microcosm of the body were linked. The scale was different, but it was the same phenomenon as the world’s phase system that divided up the different legends and managed them in their own realms that existed on different levels."

Or is the "microcosm and macrocosm" part just an example/analogy?

No, it's just comparing the stack of Phases which are piled up and are partitioned layers that influence each other and are yet separate closed realms to the Pao-Pei which are managed in categories so their effects don't interfere with one another. And like the microcosm/macrocosm and magic power/leylines (power of the planet), the sage weapon collisions/phase collisions both produce the spark and spray phenomena at different scales.

 

[Dog3352]

No, it's just comparing the stack of Phases which are piled up and are partitioned layers that influence each other and are yet separate closed realms to the Pao-Pei which are managed in categories so their effects don't interfere with one another. And like the microcosm/macrocosm and magic power/leylines (power of the planet), the sage weapon collisions/phase collisions both produce the spark and spray phenomena at different scales.

So what's that like?

This is an analogy, the main point here is the fact that he is creating "barriers" between the characteristics to separate them, and so he uses both the line of ley and magic and the microcosm-macrocosm relationship (where both are the same thing, but separate. Maybe even talking about the Macrocosm-Microcosm analogy) as analogies, and then uses the fact that the phases are separated as an analogy for his action of "separating the characteristics", making a comparison between "separating the characteristics with a barrier " and "the fact that the phases are divided by something".

 

[Zensum]

So what's that like?

This is an analogy, the main point here is the fact that he is creating "barriers" between the characteristics to separate them, and so he uses both the line of ley and magic and the microcosm-macrocosm relationship (where both are the same thing, but separate. Maybe even talking about the Macrocosm-Microcosm analogy) as analogies, and then uses the fact that the phases are separated as an analogy for his action of "separating the characteristics", making a comparison between "separating the characteristics with a barrier " and "the fact that the phases are divided by something".

Yea that's essentially it.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Random thing I stumbled upon just now:



We can use this to calculate the speed of the Electron Beam Sattelite weapon which Elizard blocked, as it gives us a timeframe. (Although not quite sure whether she actually scales, given the distance involved)
Too bad the satellite isn't really shown, though, from what I see. Means assumptions on the distance are necessary.

(Also, Aleis-tans voice is deeper than I imagined)

 

[Aseka]

So, where does Aleister's Soul Manipulation comes from?

 

[XDragnoir]

So, where does Aleister's Soul Manipulation comes from?

Damaging Qliphah's Qliphoth (which is basically her soul)

 

[Aseka]

Damaging Qliphah's Qliphoth (which is basically her soul.

Would you like to provide some scans?

 

[Aseka]

Wait, I got the scans already. Thanks for telling me.