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Toaru Revision

Axscell

Axscell

273
156
So given the new tiering system, and the inevitable downgrade of Toaru, I've decided to propose some new tiers for the characters that I think are going to be affected by these changes. Please take a look, and tell me what you guys think. And given how unique and complex the cosmology of Toaru is, any correction or input would be appreciated anywhere I missed something or made a mistake. So here are the revised tiers:

True Magic Gods: At least Low 1-C (Due to being far superior to Aleister)

Othinus: At least 2-C (Being able to create/destroy a countably finite amount of phases (universes)), Likely 2-A (Was stated by Thor, to be capable of creating infinite worlds (phases))

Aleister: Low 1-C (Destroyed the hidden world of the MG's which is a plane outside/beyond of all existence, and is infinitely greater than the normal Toaru multiverse, which could not contain the MG's. Said world could also not be detected/destroyed by Othinus)

Aiwass: Likely 2-B (Was going to be used to be used by Aleister to destroy every phase) Coronzon: 2-C (with Magick:Flaming_Sword: Stated to be the ultimate attack that rivalled Magic God Othinus' gungnir)

Touma: Possibly 2-C (Imagine Breaker has the same effect on supernatural bodies as it has on supernatural attacks)

Kamisato: Low 2-C (Created an alternate phase (universe, which exists on the same timeline as Touma's phase (universe) in its unused space))

Curtana: Low 2-C (Can cut through anything, via all dimensions severing spell. Caps at Low 2-C because it is stated to be able to cut through the whole universe, given the right range)

Accel's Reflection: At least 2-C (Intercepted and redirected Coronzon's Magic:Flaming_Sword, it cannot be bypassed by conventional force though, no matter the magnitude)

Multiverse Explanation: So the Toaruverse is made up of one world (the Pure World), and while it is true that Toaru does not contain alternate timelines, other universes do exist in this world as phases. These phases have been shown to be universes of their own, as evidenced by the current world (Touma's current phase) being described as a universe countless times while still being a phase, and also the existence of other phases like heaven and hell, all of which have their own inhabitants and also one timeline. And several other instances too. Alternate timelines or alternate universes do not exist in the sense that there aren't other universes that have their own version of Touma and Co, or say other universes with very slight variations (e.g different timelines for each or any one phase, hence the line "the world is single timeline that can expand or contract like a rubber string"). So to conclude, the world of Toaru is a single universe (pure world), with other universes stacked on top of it infinitely, and outside/beyond of all of it, is the hidden world/realm/plane of the MG's, which is stated to be outside of all of existence.

Kamisato: So what Kamisato did when he created the "new world" was that he essentially created an alternate universe on the same timeline as Touma's phase. It was a different universe, but its existence depended on the existence on Touma's current universe (due to the mechanics of world rejector). It isn't a pocket dimension because it does not actually exist within Touma's universe, but rather on the same timeline as it.
 
Accel's reflection shouldn't have a limit regardless of whether it's conventional force or not. The durability for Reflection would be 'varies' and scale to the vectors he's given.
 
Seems half okay. While Reflection technically speaking doesn't have a magnitude limit, adding "at least" and "varies" should work to avoid NLF. Also, why are a bunch of characters 2-C? Don't they all scale to Gungnir, which scales to Othinus? The spear should be able to shatter as many Phases as she can make, it literally completes her power after all. Why not 2-B or 2-A?
 
@Malox As stated above, yours and any suggestion/correction would really be appreciated wherever you think there's a mistake or a wrong tier. And please give reasons why
 
@Oma-Zi Apparently they don't use dimensions anymore on this site to justify Tier 1 ratings. They use higher planes of existence. So number or size of dimensions are pretty inconsequential now
 
DestinyDude0 said:
Seems half okay. While Reflection technically speaking doesn't have a magnitude limit, adding "at least" and "varies" should work to avoid NLF. Also, why are a bunch of characters 2-C? Don't they all scale to Gungnir, which scales to Othinus? The spear should be able to shatter as many Phases as she can make, it literally completes her power after all. Why not 2-B or 2-A?
Click to expand...
Which characters do you think scale to Gungnir Othinus, and why?
 
Accel0305 said:
@Oma-Zi Apparently they don't use dimensions anymore on this site to justify Tier 1 ratings. They use higher planes of existence. So number or size of dimensions are pretty inconsequential now
Click to expand...
So what they be?

Higher dimension in Toaru meaning beyond from lower dimension, Higher d can bypass causality because 3D model universe can't react higher d model or move this meaning beyond reality.

So if they got downgrade to tier 2 very at least them will get Acsusality type5 by causality meaningless to higher dimension.
 
Othinus should only have one tier in her Magic God form, Gungnir is the source of her power and without it she wouldn't be able to create or destroy infinite and finite phrases respectfully.

Magick Flaming sword and Reflection should scale to Gungnir.

Aiwass should be on the same tier as Coronzon not above. In truth Aiwass at full power should be unknown.

IB should probably also scale. Not sure about WR and Curtana.
 
Yes and no.

While it's techically true that her powers do not come from Gungnir as everything she can do she can basically do in her 50/50 form. It's Gungnir however that truly makes Othinus a Magic God, it's Gungnir that allows her to create phrases without limitation, it is Gungnir that allows her to destroy phrases with very little limitation, it's Gungnir that gives her the success rate of 100%.

So yes Gungnir is the source of her power in a way, at least it's the source of her being a true Magic God (although not an actual true Magic God like the ones in True Gremlin since Othinuis is meant to be weaker)
 
The only thing 100% negative has been shown to do is use the Crossbow Arrows and create Gungnir. '''Infinite''' Phase Manipulation hasn't been shown to be one of it's capabilities.
 
Gungnir's capabilities? I'm not sure, I think it's probably one of Othinus' own powers but perhaps only on a finite level without Gungnir. Gungnir just allows her to use all her own powers without any or rather nearly no limitation.

But going back on topic my point still stands, Othinus in her 100% form should only have one key and not two as Othinus wouldn't be 100% without Gungnir.
 
are u for real ?

it's literally the same thing 100% negative or positive, bu there is no need to tell u using the positive way it's esier right

gungunir is just a spiritual item, it does not contain the power of a MG

The characteristics of Gungnir are:

  1. The lance was made to be thrown.
  2. The lance would always hit its target once thrown.
  3. The lance could not be shot down or destroyed mid-flight.
  4. The lance would always return to its owner's hands after piercing the target.
  5. That lance would destroy the symbols of human power.
Gungnir is one of the ways Othinus can bypass her 50/50 restriction. Wielding the spiritual item itself allows her to unify her possibilities towards 100% success, allowing her to use her Magic God powers freely to destroy, create or change the world as she sees fit.

When Othinus throws Gugnnir, the world is smashed to pieces as if space itself is torn apart. The fragments of the world take on the shape of a giant lance and approach the enemy with the force of a raging wave.
 
Unifying her possibilities still kinda scales to her tho, since it needs to be able to withstand the power. I mean, bypassing the 50/50 limit is just another way of saying that it "completes her power". Gungnir is able to shatter every Phase and I'm pretty sure it's not just finite.
 
again no it just a tool it has the power to "shatter" phases but not all the other things, othinus power already is complete, the problem is that is TOO complete and stuck at 50 50 gungunir just unify the possibilities
 
LOL no. Othinus's power is not complete. That's the entire difference between her and the rest of True GREMLIN. The 50/50 possibilities is the limitatio. Your argument doesnt make any sense. IMO if Aiwass is 2-A for destroying Phases, so should everyone else be.
 
Guys... Othinus is a full Magic God, even in her 50/50 state. The reason for her 50/50 restriction is due to the Norse pantheon needing weapons to use and control 100% of their power. As the weapon signifies that gods power. Gungnir has many properties as it relates to being a Norse spear weapon as it is a spiritual item, but this is all it does as it relates to a Magic God, allows Othinus to control the power she already has.

OT: I agree with Malox that these tiers are rather arbitrary.
 
Doubt it. The 50/50 phenomenon should apply to all Imperfect-MG's, regardless of pantheon. Where is it stated that it's only for the Norse? That's not how I understand it, and I'll need a citation to prove otherwise. EDIT: It seems I was mistaken. My apologies then.

Controlling her power is effectively the same as completing it. For example, I highly doubt Othinus could warp infinite number of Phases in her Base form, since the backlash would destroy her before long. Ergo it is finite. By unifying her chances with Gungnir, it becomes infinite. You see the difference between the two states?
 
Basically she's not imperfect, she merely can't control her magic god power. He didn't say this was just the case for just Norse Magic Gods, just that in Norse myths a weapon symbolizes and what they use to control a gods power. Which is why it was the solution to her dilemma. Othinus can warp those phases if she tried in 50/50 but she obviously wouldn't due to the chance of hitting negative odds. Can probably link you quotes if I look into the novels for each bit later.

I think you guys should resolve main thread before you guys discuss tiering imo.
 
Othinius can do basically everything in her 50/50 form but has limitations which she doesn't have in her 100%. This means that while she can create, destroy and manipulate phrases she can't do it at an infinite rate because eventually she will hit a negative. On the other hand Othinus might be able to create 500,000,000,000 phrases before she hits a negative or it might happen after 1.

Othinus' 100% key takes away those limitations and allows her to truly unleash her Magic God Powers and truly allows her to destroy and create infinite phrases, again, no limitation. The point isn't whether or not she has these powers in her 50/50 form but whether being able to create and destroy with infinite universes would still stand and the answer as to be no because again she will evenutally hit a negative.

I agree that we should probably wait for the tiering downgrade conversation to finish first and I do think some of the OP's tier ratings are a bit off.

For example why is Aiwass 2-B while Coronzon, Othinus and Curtana are all 2-C? Aiwass is 2-B because he can apparently destroy all phrases but yet Othinus, who can also destroy all phrases accept the hidden world and the pure world is 2-C and Curtana which can slice through all dimensions/phrases even the pure world is 2-C. Although Curtana doens't actually destroy dimensions or phrases so maybe it should be 2-C anyway. I'm not sure on that really.

But yeah let's wait until the tiering is done.
 
At least 2A (can destroy/create an infinite amount of phases/worlds/possibilities/whatever) possibly H1C (the world has 11 dimensions, but we don't have all the context needed to say they are higher planes of existence). If everyone if giving their own tiering proposals, why shouldn't i?
 
There's not one person who said you can't.

We are saying we should wait until the tiering discussions for Toaru are complete because we don't know what the highest tier will be for Toaru, it could be as high as Low 1-C or as Low as Low 2-C. I know there are a few who are swinging for the lower tier of Low 2-C. If that's the case then tier 2-B, 2-A and Low 1-C would be out of the question for any character.

But if the Low 1-C is accepted of course then tiers 2-C, 2-B, 2-A and Low 1-C would all be in consideration.
 
It seems like they've reached a conclusion for the verse to remain as it is in the original thread. So I guess unless some kind of new disagreement arises, this thread might very well be pointless
 
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