Trying to make Classic Sonic great again

[Lenyo456]

~Context~
I think most of us know that the current profile of classic Sonic, his base scale to low 4-C for defeating those who have a chaos emerald, and that's not wrong, but my point is when they also count the events of Sonic generations in their superform as their peak (I think that's enough for understand where I'm going, but I swear it's a little different)
~Proposal~
My proposal is to separate Classic Sonic in two, one for Pre-Generations (which would be the past of modern Sonic)
and one for Post-Generations (I'll call it Mania Sonic for convenience), that would scale to low 2-C (equal to Forces Modern Sonic) and my next point is...

~Mania Sonic and Modern Sonic are NOT the same hedgehog~
Some have already used the argument that Mania Sonic is the same Sonic we've always seen, but it's disagreeable.

First: Modern Sonic has never remembered the events of Sonic Generations before it happens, despite having the ability to remembering the erased events of 06.
and if he remembered, why the hell would he let Sonic 06 happen???

Second: The same goes for Eggman, his modern part only discovered the phantom ruby just before the events of Forces and not knowing much about it, although his Mania counterpart discovered it even before Adventure

Third: This is reinforced by Tails' comments, calling him "Sonic from another dimension". Even Modern.Sonic calls him in a different way. (I want to attribute the term "dimension" to the division that occurred in the timeline after the events of Sonic Generations)
~Evidences~

at his peak (Defeated the Time Eater alongside his Modern counterpart and reversed the damage done across all of space-time and all of reality as a whole, which includes with a multiverse with innumerable, potentially infinite timelines.[20][21][22] Should be capable of achieving the same level of power that his Modern counterpart used to defeat Solaris and the Egg Wizard) |

In classic sonic's own profile it already says that it is comparable to its modern counterpart, which should soon be scaled to be equal in base (since it seems that the community here works with
stronger base= stronger super)

And that's not all

Nothing indicates that he lost his power after the timeline was "fixed", on the contrary, when going to Forces after Mania, the first thing he does is one shot Phantom!Chaos, which is a creation of phantom ruby, and should scale to other creations, such as Phantom!Metal Sonic, who fought against Modern Sonic and the Rookie.
And could deal damage to the Eggmobile which scales at low 2-C, and to complement it was able to deal damage to the Egg Death Robot, which also scales to low 2-C.
~Conclusion~
A key must be created for Mania Sonic, and his feats must NOT be scaled to classic Sonic.

Agree:

Disagree:

Neutral:

 

[Alexander]

yes, the problem of the characters not remembering their past events is just a tremendous inconsistency

 

[Lenyo456]

yes, the problem of the characters not remembering their past events is just a tremendous inconsistency

Come on, take it a little bit, let's not put on a clown mask and pretend this isn't because of real life stuff

 

[omegabronic]

a sandbox is being made to cover this, but no, classic was retconed into being modern's past once again, this was re stated numerous times even by Ian Flynn, who is part of the lore team deciding this type of stuff, and Iizuka when asked about super stars also re interated this, officially they are said to be the same sonic

 

[Lenyo456]

classic was retconed into being modern's past once again,

That's talking about Classic Sonic =/= Modern Sonic, which is what I'm talking about, not Mania Sonic

This was re stated numerous times even by Ian Flynn, who is part of the lore team

The same guy known to drop some dubious information about the same lore?

Iizuka when asked about super stars also re interated this, officially they are said to be the same sonic

Shouldn't that reinforce what I'm saying? This goes to the Sonic Classic we already know, not Mania Sonic (can you send the scan btw?)

Who is doing the sandbox btw?

 

[omegabronic]

This should be talking about Classic Sonic =/= Modern Sonic, which is what I'm talking about, not Mania Sonic

this is saying that Classic Sonic, the one that appears in Gens and Forces, is the Sonic who grew up to be Modern Sonic

The same guy known to drop some dubious information about the same lore?

in this case he says the same thing that the main source of information is saying, giving him more weight

Shouldn't that reinforce what I'm saying? This goes to the Sonic Classic we already know, not Mania Sonic (can you send the scan btw

how would that reinforce what you are saying? in a moment

Who is doing the sandbox btw?

me, not in a state good enough to show tho

 

[Lenyo456]

this is saying that Classic Sonic, the one that appears in Gens and Forces, is the Sonic who grew up to be Modern Sonic

in this case he says the same thing that the main source of information is saying, giving him more weight

This goes against the lore itself, because if this is true, Classic Sonic was never in forces, and
Sonic Mania was a collective delusion, shoot, Sonic should know about his entire journey till forces! This goes more against the very lore of what Forces has deployed.

Still, if that's true, wouldn't that just make Mania an alternate timeline? That just means it's a profile just for him (which will add Generations all the way to Mania Plus)

me, not in a state good enough to show tho

I can help if you want

 

[Bernkastelll]

~Context~
I think most of us know that the current profile of classic Sonic, his base scale to low 4-C for defeating those who have a chaos emerald, and that's not wrong, but my point is when they also count the events of Sonic generations in their superform as their peak (I think that's enough for understand where I'm going, but I swear it's a little different)
~Proposal~
My proposal is to separate Classic Sonic in two, one for Pre-Generations (which would be the past of modern Sonic)
and one for Post-Generations (I'll call it Mania Sonic for convenience), that would scale to low 2-C (equal to Forces Modern Sonic) and my next point is...

~Mania Sonic and Modern Sonic are NOT the same hedgehog~
Some have already used the argument that Mania Sonic is the same Sonic we've always seen, but it's disagreeable.

First: Modern Sonic has never remembered the events of Sonic Generations before it happens, despite having the ability to remembering the erased events of 06.
and if he remembered, why the hell would he let Sonic 06 happen???

Second: The same goes for Eggman, his modern part only discovered the phantom ruby just before the events of Forces and not knowing much about it, although his Mania counterpart discovered it even before Adventure

Third: This is reinforced by Tails' comments, calling him "Sonic from another dimension". Even Modern.Sonic calls him in a different way. (I want to attribute the term "dimension" to the division that occurred in the timeline after the events of Sonic Generations)
~Evidences~

In classic sonic's own profile it already says that it is comparable to its modern counterpart, which should soon be scaled to be equal in base (since it seems that the community here works with
stronger base= stronger super)

And that's not all

Nothing indicates that he lost his power after the timeline was "fixed", on the contrary, when going to Forces after Mania, the first thing he does is one shot Phantom!Chaos, which is a creation of phantom ruby, and should scale to other creations, such as Phantom!Metal Sonic, who fought against Modern Sonic and the Rookie.
And could deal damage to the Eggmobile which scales at low 2-C, and to complement it was able to deal damage to the Egg Death Robot, which also scales to low 2-C.
~Conclusion~
A key must be created for Mania Sonic, and his feats must NOT be scaled to classic Sonic.

Agree:

Disagree:

Neutral:

hmmm, is there more evidences?

 

[Lenyo456]

hmmm, is there more evidences?

I wasn't considering too much, but he is able to react against and withstand blows Egg dragoon (which is M!FTL and low 2-C)

 

[Lenyo456]

now that i think about it, classic sonic being the same as modern sonic doesn't really interfere with his power (unless you want to erase generations, mania-plus and forces from the timeline)

 

[omegabronic]

This goes against the lore itself, because if this is true, Classic Sonic was never in forces, and
Sonic Mania was a collective delusion, shoot, Sonic should know about his entire journey till forces! This goes more against the very lore of what Forces has deployed.

there is also an explanation, that being that the timeline "course corrected" after each time travel for everything to go along in a close enough way from the original way, as i said, sandboxes are being made to cover this

Still, if that's true, wouldn't that just make Mania an alternate timeline? That just means it's a profile just for him (which will add Generations all the way to Mania Plus)

how would it if the sonic from mania is still said to just be sonic of the past that grew up to be modern sonic?

I can help if you want

nah i'm good, i already have people helping me

 

[Andytrenom]

a sandbox is being made to cover this, but no, classic was retconed into being modern's past once again, this was re stated numerous times even by Ian Flynn, who is part of the lore team deciding this type of stuff, and Iizuka when asked about super stars also re interated this, officially they are said to be the same sonic

Yeah I heard it was retconned. Nice to see the source

 

[MysticMania]

I disagree, personally. TailsTube 4 says that classic is Sonic, but from his younger years. This is aso supported by other things as well, but, Forces doesn't have its own lore consistent (two different Infinite origins), so I'm wary on using it as the lead evidence for anything lore related, myself.

 

[Lenyo456]

About the TailsTube thing, honestly he seems to be only referring to the period of Sonic Generations, that Classic Sonic was still part of the timeline, since he never mentioned Mania or Forces.

 

[Alexander]

About the TailsTube thing, honestly he seems to be only referring to the period of Sonic Generations, that Classic Sonic was still part of the timeline, since he never mentioned Mania or Forces.

mania and forces is not another classic sonic, they are the same character

 

[omegabronic]

About the TailsTube thing, honestly he seems to be only referring to the period of Sonic Generations, that Classic Sonic was still part of the timeline, since he never mentioned Mania or Forces.

Generations classic sonic is the same from mania and forces

 

[Lenyo456]

Generations classic sonic is the same from mania and forces

mania and forces is not another classic sonic, they are the same character

That's not what I meant, it's just that until Generations, the two Sonic's were the same person, so it makes sense to refer to them as one person. From the moment that Mania happens (and it doesn't make sense for Mania to happen in the modern timeline, since the phantom ruby, the real one, was introduced, and that would generate several problems that I don't have space to com ment on) the tables are turned completely, and even if the timeline "corrects", the problem of characters not remembering these events remains. (And it's even worse when Sonic remembers the erased events of 06)

 

[Lenyo456]

But ok, if that doesn't go forward, I want to change my proposal, put a key "Low 2-C at peak" for the classic sonic, via Generations and Forces (I wanted to put it as his only base key, but that wouldn't make sense AGAIN on the timeline)

 

[omegabronic]

That's not what I meant, it's just that until Generations, the two Sonic's were the same person, so it makes sense to refer to them as one person. From the moment that Mania happens (and it doesn't make sense for Mania to happen in the modern timeline, since the phantom ruby, the real one, was introduced, and that would generate several problems that I don't have space to com ment on) the tables are turned completely, and even if the timeline "corrects", the problem of characters not remembering these events remains. (And it's even worse when Sonic remembers the erased events of 06)

Afterwards they are still refered as the same person

 

[Lenyo456]

Afterwards they are still refered as the same person

Uhm...when?

 

[omegabronic]

Uhm...when?

in the link i sent

 

[ElixirBlue]

Looks good Shake. Thank you for cleaning up the links.

 

[omegabronic]

Looks good Shake. Thank you for cleaning up the links.

I think you comented on the wrong thread

 

[ElixirBlue]

Mistakes were made but I will come back to this thread.

 

[Lenyo456]

Ok, since we won't reach an agreement, I want to change the proposal to low 2-C at his peak, does that seem more acceptable?

 

[omegabronic]

Ok, since we won't reach an agreement, I want to change the proposal to low 2-C at his peak, does that seem more acceptable?

he is just past sonic dude, him scaling in full to modern is a no go since it wouldn't make sense timeline wise

 

[Lenyo456]

he is just past sonic dude, him scaling in full to modern is a no go since it wouldn't make sense timeline wise

do you really want to talk about timeline wise? In Sonic? We are not going to comment on how the characters forget these events (even though they have acausality or resistance to memory loss or something like that) And in a general sense what would be the difference? Classic is already 2-B/2-A with Super, not to mention he hasn't lost his strength, using the argument that he becomes inconsistent doesn't make sense when your side of the argument also becomes inconsistent

 

[omegabronic]

do you really want to talk about timeline wise? In Sonic? We are not going to comment on how the characters forget these events (even though they have acausality or resistance to memory loss or something like that)

doesn't matter, it has some turbulance, but it is very firmly settled that they are both the same perspn

And in a general sense what would be the difference?

it would make sonic always low 2-C even tho he only gained that level of power later on after several training arcs and power growths, of which would still occur making him stronger, and then the events that made classic on that level, aka generations, happen again, making him grow again, in which the cycle repeats creating a giant circular scaling

Classic is already 2-B/2-A with Super

not relevant in the slightest

, not to mention he hasn't lost his strength

circular scaling is not an acceptable thing

using the argument that he becomes inconsistent doesn't make sense when your side of the argument also becomes inconsistent

pray tell how my side becomes becomes inconsistent

 

[Lenyo456]

doesn't matter, it has some turbulance, but it is very firmly settled that they are both the same person

Really? The closest I saw it on TailsTube was: "Sonic of the past and Sonic of now", that if we really wanted to work with it, If that classic Sonic became another Sonic, he would still be a Sonic of the past.

not relevant in the slightest

Bruh, This scale is withdrawn due to Generations, follows as follows:


Sonic 06 < Modern Sonic Generations

Super Sonic 06 <Modern Super Sonic Generations

Super Sonic 06 >= Solaris

Classic Super Sonic = Modern Super Sonic generations

Classic Super Sonic > Solaris

From that you will have to choose with 3 choices, buddy

A) Classic is Low 2-C
B) Gen!Classic Sonic is another Sonic (this one makes the most sense, as it wouldn't interfere with the timeline and would answer why characters can't remember future events)
And I don't think Tails saying a line (of dubious interpretation) refutes all of that.
C) You deny everything and keep holding on to one sentence and ignore everything else

 

[omegabronic]

Really? The closest I saw it on TailsTube was: "Sonic of the past and Sonic of now", that if we really wanted to work with it, If that classic Sonic became another Sonic, he would still be a Sonic of the past.

if he became another Sonic then he wouldn't be sonic's past and "the one who grew up to be the Sonic of the now"

Bruh, This scale is withdrawn due to Generations, follows as follows:


Sonic 06 < Modern Sonic Generations

Super Sonic 06 <Modern Super Sonic Generations

Super Sonic 06 >= Solaris

Classic Super Sonic = Modern Super Sonic generations

Classic Super Sonic > Solaris

nothing of this covers my point of circular scaling, because classic sonic <<<< 06 Sonic due to him being his past

From that you will have to choose with 3 choices, buddy

A) Classic is Low 2-C

not happening

B) Gen!Classic Sonic is another Sonic (this one makes the most sense, as it wouldn't interfere with the timeline and would answer why characters can't remember future events)
And I don't think Tails saying a line (of dubious interpretation) refutes all of that.

it is not dubious, he straight up says that they are both the same person in different points in time, accept the retcon

C) You deny everything and keep holding on to one sentence and ignore everything else

my friend, do you know what a retcon is?

 

[Lenyo456]

Your argument is based on the retcon, so here we go

From 2:01 to 2:25, it's arguable that they were talking about Classic Sonic in general, as it was a / recurring question / in the community.

If you want to push the envelope and say that he was talking indiscriminately about classic Sonic from generations, because it's his cover photo, the most plausible reason would be that the editors decided to take that image of him because 1. Showing the pixel model would be mocked 2. It's literally done, they just did a ctrl-c ctrl-v without having to work on a image just for 50 sec of a video

From 2:06 to 2:54 Tails gave a summary of Sonic generations, and as I said before, up until that point in Generatios, Mania Sonic was still the past of Modern, so it makes sense to refer to it as such. Since from that onwards in Forces he refers to him as another Sonic (Because Classic Sonic went through events like Mania that shouldn't have happened in Modern Timeline due to the characters forgetting things like the phantom ruby, You might disagree with me because of the "retcon", but you might agree that storywise it makes some sense), and Classic Sonic's timeline hasn't caught up with Modern Sonic. According to the Mania intro, Mania takes place after S3&K. So the Sonic exists in different timelines but not at the same point in time. Classic Sonic is still passing through moments of modern Sonic's past. That's why "past" is used.

So it's more likely that Mania Sonic is an alternate Sonic, as he achieved Modern Sonic in generatios via AD, and has maintained that power.

nothing of this covers my point of circular scaling, because classic sonic <<<< 06 Sonic due to him being his past

It would be, if it was Sonic from another dimension, as 2-B/2-A is taken out due to him injuring a Time-Eater who took attacks from Modern Sonic.
via Modern Super Sonic > Super Sonic 06 (since he's from the past, don't you agree?)
But on that we both agree that it doesn't make sense, it would make the scale of power confusing.

But none of that matters, right? I think we both know your answer to that all it is:

not happening

So I suggest we wait for others to come to put a stop to this, since neither side will give in

Just to be clear, I'm not disagreeing with you in bad faith or anything like that, I just find it hard to believe that logic and evidence (and some that for some reason like 2-B/2-A Classic Sonic is accepted) is disposable cause of 50 sec of a video

 

[MysticMania]

he is just past sonic dude, him scaling in full to modern is a no go since it wouldn't make sense timeline wise

I feel it does make sense for Sonic to scale to his older self, but, that's not fully the point, here.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

a sandbox is being made to cover this, but no, classic was retconed into being modern's past once again, this was re stated numerous times even by Ian Flynn, who is part of the lore team deciding this type of stuff, and Iizuka when asked about super stars also re interated this, officially they are said to be the same sonic

Watch this video, you misunderstand what Tailstube meant

 

[omegabronic]

Watch this video, you misunderstand what Tailstube meant

nothing on that really covers my points really, even in the "dimensional portal" point, tails immediately follows up with "Sonic even makes time travel look cool" which very much comfirms that all that classic is doing there is time travel, it is not only Ian saying it, it is the direction sega themselves gave for him to follow, that classic sonic is not from another timeline/dimension, that he is just the past sonic who eventually grew up to be modern sonic, all that talk about time traveling creating new timelines? yeah, it may be true for those times, but it has been comfirmed that it didn't this time with classic sonic, why? no idea, it just didn't

 

[HenshinIntervention]

nothing on that really covers my points really, even in the "dimensional portal" point, tails immediately follows up with "Sonic even makes time travel look cool" which very much comfirms that all that classic is doing there is time travel, it is not only Ian saying it, it is the direction sega themselves gave for him to follow, that classic sonic is not from another timeline/dimension, that he is just the past sonic who eventually grew up to be modern sonic, all that talk about time traveling creating new timelines? yeah, it may be true for those times, but it has been comfirmed that it didn't this time with classic sonic, why? no idea, it just didn't

Dimensions, timelines, realities, universes are words used synonymously

The point is that Classic Sonic is both from the past and from another dimension. He IS Sonic from the past, but his history had been altered by Time Eater.

Using Ian Flynn for this is ironic because the man can't stay consistent for shit and he has said certain stuff are non canon in his podcast but gets contradicted and concedes to higher authority. Mania and Forces Classic Sonic is the same guy and using Sonic's comment on him he is also Generations Classic Sonic (it's been generations..)
We know Classic Sonic isn't entirely the Modern Sonic we know because if he was then Modern wouldn't be surprised at seeing himself in Generations.

 

[omegabronic]

Dimensions, timelines, realities, universes are words used synonymously

not really, when tails uses dimension to refer to time, he clearly means it differently then when he uses it to refer to blaze's dimension for example, that is in the real "time axis" sense

The point is that Classic Sonic is both from the past and from another dimension. He IS Sonic from the past, but his history had been altered by Time Eater.

then how could he have grow to become Modern Sonic like it is stated? i really don't see where this interpretation comes from, if he was from another dimension/timeline, then he could not be Modern's past, it simply doesn't make sense

Using Ian Flynn for this is ironic because the man can't stay consistent for shit and he has said certain stuff are non canon in his podcast but gets contradicted and concedes to higher authority.

Considering that this is specifically a thing he said that it is the direction given to him by the said "higher authority" and has been said officially in the tailstube, i would go with what he says here

Mania and Forces Classic Sonic is the same guy and using Sonic's comment on him he is also Generations Classic Sonic (it's been generations..)
We know Classic Sonic isn't entirely the Modern Sonic we know because if he was then Modern wouldn't be surprised at seeing himself in Generations.

why not? by this logic Sonic wouldn't remember Eggman's dark future he made in Sonic CD for him to solve, he wouldn't need to remember until he goes back to his time, there is no set time travel rule to say that would remember the events always the moment he time travels

 

[Lenyo456]

then how could he have grow to become Modern Sonic like it is stated? i really don't see where this interpretation comes from, if he was from another dimension/timeline, then he could not be Modern's past, it simply doesn't make sense

it's arguable that they were talking about Classic Sonic in general, as it was a / recurring question / in the community.

...

nothing on that really covers my points really, even in the "dimensional portal" point, tails immediately follows up with "Sonic even makes time travel look cool" which very much comfirms that all that classic is doing there is time travel, it is not only Ian saying it, it is the direction sega themselves gave for him to follow, that classic sonic is not from another timeline/dimension

Up to that point they could somehow just be the same Sonic, the change occurs in Mania (which as I've said before, doesn't make sense to occur in the modern timeline)

why not? by this logic Sonic wouldn't remember Eggman's dark future he made in Sonic CD for him to solve, he wouldn't need to remember until he goes back to his time, there is no set time travel rule to say that would remember the events always the moment he time travels

I don't understand, can you explain?

 

[omegabronic]

...

don't see how that covers what i said

Up to that point they could somehow just be the same Sonic, the change occurs in Mania (which as I've said before, doesn't make sense to occur in the modern timeline)

as shown with Silver currently, time traveling does not create other timelines, it just changes the current one you traveled in, by the laws of time travel in sonic they simply can't be different Sonic's

I don't understand, can you explain?

when sonic travels to the past to destroy the badnicks generators, by the logic presented he would need to already have remembered that he destroyed them in the present

 

[Lenyo456]

when sonic travels to the past to destroy the badnicks generators, by the logic presented he would need to already have remembered that he destroyed them in the present

In reality, it makes sense that he would remember this, since how would he know that he would need to travel back in time to destroy them?

as shown with Silver currently, time traveling does not create other timelines, it just changes the current one you traveled in, by the laws of time travel in sonic they simply can't be different Sonic's

And a point that you ignore from Tailstube, is how time is just one of the forms of dimension, and choices can indeed create different timelines, as is already accepted here on the wiki, in Shadow the hedgehog, where it creates several endings, in addition to of evidence I got from Shake's blog

Many-Worlds Project

vsbattles.fandom.com

So yes, different events can lead to different futures, creating different lines, and if you travel to one of them, youonly travel and change to the one you are. (creating even other timelines)

If it worked like that, how would Super Sonic Temporal Offensive work? Since supposedly, if it's just a timeline, none of the robots that are affected in the present should exist, nor in past, nor in future

don't see how that covers what i said

I will answer this in the future

 

[omegabronic]

In reality, it makes sense that he would remember this, since how would he know that he would need to travel back in time to destroy them?

because it is basic logic? eggman wants to screw the past to conquer the future? well, just go back in time to save the future, also, if every time travel that diverges too much creates other timelines, then eggman's entire plan in CD makes no sense, since he wouldn't ever be able to change the present day with his time travels, but only create other timelines

And a point that you ignore from Tailstube, is how time is just one of the forms of dimension

time is that even in real life, what do you think a "temporal dimension" in a space time is? and considering that tails specifies that classic did time travel in generations when he went back to his time, then it is clear that he is using the term "dimension" in this sense rather than "another universe"

, and choices can indeed create different timelines, as is already accepted here on the wiki, in Shadow the hedgehog, where it creates several endings, in addition to of evidence I got from Shake's blog

Many-Worlds Project

vsbattles.fandom.com

shadow's case doesn't involve time travel, they are natural ocuring diversions of events, not the same situation

So yes, different events can lead to different futures, creating different lines, and if you travel to one of them, youonly travel and change to the one you are. (creating even other timelines)

then explain modern Silver as a whole, because he shows that when you change the past, the future changes and doesn't create other timelines

If it worked like that, how would Super Sonic Temporal Offensive work? Since supposedly, if it's just a timeline, none of the robots that are affected in the present should exist, nor in past, nor in future

.....i really didn't got your question, why do you think everyone who sruvived the temporal nukes have type 4 acausality? also, super only has that at full power and not every time