Undertale revision

[Theglassman12]

So I just found a couple of things that the profies missed, though nothing too major except for one thing which would scale to every monster in the game.

Sans and Asriel:
Both of them are missing magic in their profiles, which they should since every monster has magic.

Every monster in the game
Inorganic Physiology: It's stated more than once in the game that monsters are made of magic as opposed to humans.

Non Physical Interaction: Since every monster is capable of using magic, and is made of magic, they should be able to hit ghosts as shown in the mad dummy fight that normal hits can't hit him. And that Magic is the only thing that can hit him since you use his attacks against him, further proven by Napstablook being able to hit him and you being unable to remotely hit Naptsablook since he mentioned you can't really hit or kill him since he's incorporeal.

Clarification on the weaknesses: So we have the weaknesses for the monsters as "weak against murderous intentions" when it's a bit more specific than that. Long story short, the monsters need to be unwilling to fight their opponent for their defense to weaken, on top of the fact that someone with a strong soul with murderous intent is capable of potentially oneshotting any of them. So I propose it should be reworded as "If they're not determined to kill their foes, and is facing against a foe with a strong soul and has murderous intent, their defenses will weaken".

Flowey and Asriel
Unconventional soul manipulation resistance as Omega Flowey due to him having six human souls with him. This should also apply to Asriel as he's basically holding every soul the monsters have. Omega Flowey with his attacks should have the following: Explosion Manipulation, Plant Manipulation, and possibly life manipulation?? if the pirhannas that fly off his body to attack you is anything to go by. Asriel should have paralysis inducement in his full power key since when he activates it and you do anything it mentions how you cannot move.

Sans
Just one thing that I'm a bit confused on, where has he shown to have clairvoyance? Cause I don't recall there being any scenes where he can do that unless it's a blink and you miss type of deal.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Clairvoyance comes from Sans being able to see your LV.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Seems fine. No clue about Sans tho.

 

[Theglassman12]

Clairvoyance comes from Sans being able to see your LV.

I see. How about everything else I proposed? Are you fine with those?

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Yeah, those all look fine to me.

 

[Theglassman12]

oh yeah one more thing, Undyne should have transformation since she's capable of turning into her Undying form with her second wind.

 

[Lord_JJJ]

I Agree

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

This seems fine, although wasn't Asriel's paralysis explained with another ability? I remember it being

 

[TriforcePower1]

This is good

 

[Eficiente]

I disagree with the unconventional soul manip resistance. I proposed before that Sans' Clairvoyance was Information Analysis but the thread got derailed, it comes from his ability to see Frisk's LOVE.

wasn't Asriel's paralysis explained with another ability? I remember it being

It used to be power null, then I proposed it to be paralysis and Azzy gave the ok.

 

[Eficiente]

I agree with all the rest.

 

[Theglassman12]

Can you explain why you disagree with unconventional soul manipulation resistance?

 

[Eficiente]

It would be like giving Dugtrio resistence to Biological Manip due to them having 3 bodies.

 

[Theglassman12]

Ok, and Asriel has more than one soul inside of his body. So any normal soul hax on him wouldn't work cause he has a lot more souls in store. How is that not in anyway some form of resistance, or at least unconventional resistance when he has numerous souls inside of him as opposed to one?

 

[Eficiente]

Yes, it would, someone would just have to target his soul and not all of them at once. We can write how many souls he has somewhere at the beginning of his P&A, would this be enough?

 

[Theglassman12]

we don't remotely have a precise number on the amount of souls he has since it just says he has every monster soul in the underground. We can just add that to the explanation for him resisting soul hax.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

At least 10k, what with that many monsters watching Mettaton's show.

And I don't think Asriel has a soul. As far as I understood they were all fused into one, but regardless of that the souls of monsters and the six humans were the only souls he had.

And monster souls aren't exactly durable, either.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

About the other stuff...

I organic Physiology should be fine.

NPI should be fine also, but Mad Dummy is not noncorporeal. Ghosts are, but the body they posses can be hit, it just doesn't harm them cuz they are puppets (if they aren't properly fused with the body anyways).

 

[Jinsye]

Tobe fair, for Asriel I'm fairly sure destroying enough souls of his would revert him back into Omega Flowey consodering he needed every soul in the underground give or take 10 or so souls to turn him from Asriel to a far weaker form.

 

[Eficiente]

I insist that it should go somewhere at the beginning of his P&A, like we do with characters with odd things in them such as extra spider legs in their backs.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Ricsi that doesn't exactly disprove my point since the Mad dummy is still a spirit possessing something and you cannot hurt it with normal attacks.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I'm not disproving it, it's pretty clear that ghosts can be hurt with magic. Just pointing it out that the Dummy itself isn't noncorporeal.

 

[Duedate8898]

Does Asriel/Flowey not have any of Frisk's reistance because we don't scale what Frisk can accomplish with Determination to him? Just wanted to know cause I thought it curouis just how lacking both were in regards of their resistance.

 

[Jinsye]

DETERMINATION doesn't always scale abilities iirc, or else Asriel/Flowey would have Low-Godly.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Mad Dummy IS Non-Corporeal. He's explictly a ghost possessing a dummy. If the dummy breaks he lives on. That's the literal entire point of his character.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Yeah, but the dummy he's possessing isn't. That's their point.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Yeah, but he's not the dummy. He's the ghost possessing the dummy. He could just possess something else.

And the Dummy makes an explicit difference between Frisk's physical attacks (which does nothing to him at all) and his own magical attacks + Napstablook's tears, which are actual threats to him in the long run.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

They know that. They get your point entirely. You two both agree. He's just pointing out that, while Mad Dummy himself is Non-Corporeal, the dummy he possesses isn't.

 

[Read_this_post]

Inorganic physiology i disagree with. Monsters are fully fleshed out beings capable of reproducing, having their own biology, souls etc. Its just that they are mostly composed of magic as opposed to water.

I feel as though their non physical interaction is limited as magic attacks are capable of irritating a ghost. Though it just doesnt do major damage, you could argue that its due to a resistence to magic the ghost posesses. So im not completely opposed to this part.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

They specifically don't bleed when hurt, and a good part are not even animal based (literal ice cubes, buckets, vulcano's, etc).

Even the animal based one's lack blood, and their only real body is so disconnected that, without magic, it falls apart into dust.

 

[Read_this_post]

They dont bleed when hurt :/

 

[Jinsye]

I'm fairly sure Sans is a special exception considering no other monster bleeds when hurt

 

[Read_this_post]

A monsters physical body turns to dust when killed due to lack of physical matter. Since magic isnt physical unlike something like water. I dont think that grants inorganic physiology. And those occasional non animal based ones are not exactly like their real life counterparts. They just have similar properties to them.

Like, is inorganic physiology even applicable to a race that explicitelly has both biological functions and can reproduce?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

They dont bleed when hurt :/

I distinctly remember Toby tweeting about that being ketchup, but regardless he is literally taken as special due to bleeding...

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

A monsters physical body turns to dust when killed due to lack of physical matter. Since magic isnt physical unlike something like water. I dont think that grants inorganic physiology. And those occasional non animal based ones are not exactly like their real life counterparts. They just have similar properties to them.
Like, is inorganic physiology even applicable to a race that explicitelly has both biological functions and can reproduce?

Yes it does. They have a body that can be touched and hugged, and many are literally animate items, as given with exemples above.

And I have zero idea how an airoplane amd living fire reproduces, but saying that makes them orgainic isn't the best of reasonings.

 

[Read_this_post]

I didnt say its completely non physical. I said magic is. They are not completely composed of magic just like how humans are not 100% composed of water. The magic just means less physical matter exists in them.

Because theres no reason to assume they would work completely different from other monsters who can clearly have children. They are not literal airplanes or fire. Theyre all a part of the same species but just represent those objects and have similar properties (also pretty sure its made clear tsunderplane isnt exactly asexual either).

Is there some better way to define being organic? Because having a soul attuned body, biology, reproductive system and generally being fully fleshed out (though with little physical matter) sounds very organic to me. Inorganic seems to be defined as living object, which monsters dont come anywhere close to being.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

No. Magic is quite clearly physical while it is making their body. Magic is physical enough to crush tables and let Toriel hug Frisk. There is no point in game where anything but ghosts (and arguably Grilby) are treated as less physical than everything else, and magic quiet clearly hurts and touches enemies physically too.

There is no reason to assume that a literal piece of square ice doesn't have genitals? Or that skeletons who are shown to drip liquids they drink don't have them? Or that a volcano, a plane, a slime, flaming ropes and a carrot with a face have them? Is there really no reason to say that they don't all reproduce the same way the anthropomorphized animal monsters do? And regardless, being able to have sex does not make the matter that makes you up organic. And since when you kill a monster, they fall apart into dust and not organs, it's safe to say that the magic is in-between almost all the matter, meaning that normal biology is still impossible.

Fire, sentient rocks, airoplanes, and everything else I said above don't sound organic to me. We know for a fact that not all monsters can do the same actions (the giant mounth dude can probably eat, but stuff just falls through Sans and Papyrus unless it's insta-absorbable magic food).

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Don't make me spell out which monsters can't have a dick, no matter how much fanart likes to ignore it man... I had enough about monster reproduction with the UT fandom.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Triple post aside, didn't the Turtle mention Toriel and Asgore putting a piece of their soul into their children, which is why they age?

If we take monsterkind as a single species... they all should reproduce the same way, the above being the only canon mention of it that comes to mind. Souls being involved also makes sense with the diverse bodies and all.

 

[Read_this_post]

No. Magic is quite clearly physical while it is making their body. Magic is physical enough to crush tables and let Toriel hug Frisk. Magic a supernatural force which does not obide by physics, allowing them to create fire magic and everything. Magic itself is not physical. You cannot form pure magic from an atomic structure. Magic is literally a force and concept that doesnt obide by physics and can be used for a variety of things as a result. It doesnt make magic in itself physical at all.

Are you not reading a word im saying? I said monsters lack physical matter due to being mostly made of magic. Being mostly made of a non physical concept doesnt mean you cant interact with the world around you and have no physical composure. This just is a strawman and turning into repitition.

There is no point in game where anything but ghosts (and arguably Grilby) are treated as less physical than everything else, and magic quiet clearly hurts and touches enemies physically too. Alphys literally states that monsters lack physical matter that humans do which is why their bodies melt from determination. The only physical difference between monsters and humans established is that they are made of mostly magic as opposed to water and their bodies are attuned to their souls as a result. I rest my case here.

There is no reason to assume that a literal piece of square ice doesn't have genitals? Or that skeletons who are shown to drip liquids they drink don't have them? Or that a volcano, a plane, a slime, flaming ropes and a carrot with a face have them? Tsunderplane literally shows the capability of having romantic feelings in his own dialogue which means an "inanimate object" does not prove a monster asexual. The burden is on you to prove that monsters that are all consistently treat as being a part of the exact same species cant reproduce while others explicitely can.

These are not literal planes, volcanoes and carrots with magical properties giving them life. They are monsters who have properties of those items, while still retaining the same attributes as any monster species, only ever being treat as a different character. Even if they cant reproduce, it doesnt change having the same physiology and biology as an organic species.

And regardless, being able to have sex does not make the matter that makes you up organic. And since when you kill a monster, they fall apart into dust and not organs, it's safe to say that the magic is in-between almost all the matter, meaning that normal biology is still impossible. Turning into dust due being 60% non physical magic doesnt make normal biology impossible. This is clearly disproven by examples of food being implied to heal monsters during combat (no given exceptions for any "race" of monsters), poison and illness having effects on monsters,

Fire, sentient rocks, airoplanes, and everything else I said above don't sound organic to me. We know for a fact that not all monsters can do the same actions (the giant mounth dude can probably eat, but stuff just falls through Sans and Papyrus unless it's insta-absorbable magic food). "doesnt sound organic" is just an argument from belief. You need to know the difference between a member of an organic species representing an object, and an object being given life through magical means. Also i should mention that your argument would only support any non animalistic monsters having this ability as opposed to all of them which is a completely different argument from what the op is suggesting.

Non animalistic monsters can have different properties, but function the same as a species. Its really not hard to comprehend. The fact that animalistic monsters have proven organic physiology means that the object based monsters would be the same, even if they cant reproduce.

Didn't the Turtle mention Toriel and Asgore putting a piece of their soul into their children, which is why they age? If we take monsterkind as a single species... they all should reproduce the same way, the above being the only canon mention of it that comes to mind. Souls being involved also makes sense with the diverse bodies and all. No. The soul power of asgore and toriel as boss monsters flowed into asriel. Thats entirely genetic, not how they actually created him, and only applies to boss monsters.

The only monsters who you can actually give inorganic physiology to comfortably are ghosts who posess items such as mettaton.

Outside that, unless being composed of a large percentage of magic giving their bodies less physical matter than a human immediately gives a character inorganic physiology, it cant be used.

The only thing you need to know is that monsters are a fully fleshed out species who simply lack less physical matter due to having magic (non physical, physics defying force) being a large part of their composure and having their souls being attuned to their bodies as well. There is seriously no reason to overthink this to such a ridiculous degree as opposed to going by what the series is handing down to you.