upgrade hypnos and thanatos to 3-A

[Victor2]

i think hypnos and thanatos should get upgraded to 3-A as in Shaka in ND can creat universes and the likes of Shijima can destroy it. both hypnos and thanatos are absurdly above any gold saints.

am i wrong? right? lemme know.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

You are. Hypnos and Thanatos can't be 3-A do to various factors, like how Manigoldo who's at most 3-C being able to stand up to the later in Lost Canvas, or how effortlesly curbstomped they were by God Cloth Saints, or how even Clothless Athena is superior to them.

As for the how Shaka and Shijima can "create and destroy universes", this is what happens:

Shaka's reached the Nirvana, so he's not a normal Gold Saint anymore. Shijima has remained silent for years on end, and concentrated all the Cosmos he stored due to not using his voice. Shaka's Agyo is 'The Light of the Universe's Birth', Shijima's Ungyo is 'The Sound of the Universe's Death'. The two attacks clashes and cancelled each other, leading to Shaka and Shijima remaining in a power struggle not unlike a DBZ one (Though more spiritual and mental and less blasty), which led to the whole "Countless universes are created and destroyed."

There's also the very likely possibility of that feat being a heavy outlier.

 

[Victor2]

first lost convas is not conon. second god cloths limitations are unknowen, we don`t know the exact limits to them and for your information hypnos survived an attack from seiya and it took two god cloth saints to beat him meanwhile thanatos was just reklesss. and finally,shaka is the reincarnation of buddah so he is more like achived buddah`s full power ( and or obtained more power), but i think thanatos and hypnos are stronger than buddah.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

first lost convas is not conon. second god cloths limitations are unknowen, we don`t know the exact limits to them and for your information hypnos survived an attack from seiya and it took two god cloth saints to beat him meanwhile thanatos was just reklesss. and finally,shaka is the reincarnation of buddah so he is more like achived buddah`s full power ( and or obtained more power), but i think thanatos and hypnos are stronger than buddah.

No to all.

Firstly, all of Saint Seiya is canon due to Episode G: Assassin confirming the existince of a multiverse

Secondly, Hypnos's 'Eternal Drowsiness' heavily weakens those he fights against, making them weaker. Watch the episode where they fight him and that becomes clear.

Thirdly, Shaka is not the reincarnation of the Buddha, I.E,Siddhartha Gautama, but rather of an unspecified person who ascended to Buddhahood in a past life (Case in point, we see flashbacks of 7 year old Shaka talking to the Buddha... But how would be capable of doing that if Buddha's soul is his own?)

 

[Victor2]

nah. Episode G or Assassin itself is not conon due to many retcons in the manga.

i have the entire volumes man i don`t need to watch the episode. and hypnos only used his "eternal drowsiness" againts Shun not againts hyoga or shiryu. also wouldn`t that make his trump card universal tho? since it could weaker/work on universal beings

also it`s been stated multiple times throughout the series that shaka is THE riencarnation of the buddah, saga even said.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

http://i.picpar.com/csFb.png

http://i.picpar.com/dsFb.png

http://i.picpar.com/esFb.png

^ Translated quotes that prove multiverse

http://seiya30th.com/series.html < Use translator and look what it says about Episode G. It confirms that the Story Draft was done by Masami Kurumada. Meaning it's canon.

Watch the fight again, he used it on Shun, Shiryu and Hyoga, the later simply didn't fall asleep, only got weakened, do to already seeing the attack on Shun.

Translation errors. "A" became "The".

 

[Victor2]

i know episode G stroy was drafted by kuramade himself but he retconned it with Next Dimension.

like i said, i don`t need to watch the fight, i owe the entire volume, he only used it againts Shun not againts Shiryu, hyoga.

and btw the multiverse quote is in spanish i don`t read so i could use some translation there bud.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Retcon what?

He used it against Shiryu and Hyoga, they were clearly tired.

And this: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...of_that_the_Saint_Seiya_Verse_is_a_Multiverse

 

[Victor2]

there are far too many retcons to count when you compare classic with Episode G. ummm lets see:

Mu`s cosmo was soo great that he could creat an universe, absorbe a titans dimension/universe.

saga could almost beat (astral) cronus and yet in classic he couldn`t beat shaka

3 strongest gold saints only being able to produce big bang meanwhile in Episode G a single saint could creat an universe and so on etc etc....

there are also no mention of titans in next dimension so there you go, episode G completly got retconned.

No. when he tried using it againts them they were already Immune to, like you know "the same teq does not work on a saint twice"

and thanks.

 

[MagiSinbad]

Havent read ND yet but i'd like to correcting something

Mu`s cosmo was soo great that he could creat an universe, absorbe a titans dimension/universe.

Dude, that universe is not even bigger than the mountains, take closely look, you can see the moutains and Mu's lovely chamber .

The dimension which Mu absorbed is nowhere near universe size. Yeah, i know, it was big, but we're only seen it contain a star in the middle and that's it ( Good feat for a sealed Titan though o3o )

saga could almost beat (astral) cronus and yet in classic he couldn`t beat shaka

Beating up a weakened Cronus is NOT SOOOOOO impressive if you ask me

3 strongest gold saints only being able to produce big bang meanwhile in Episode G a single saint could creat an universe and so on etc etc....

Nope, Look up my comments above please o3o

there are also no mention of titans in next dimension so there you go, episode G completly got retconned.

May i ask ? (Because i havent read ND yet) why do they need mention about the Titans ? o3o Did some gods missed their aunts and uncle or something ?

 

[Victor2]

let me start of by saying: Titans played a Huge role in Episode G and they were feared by everyone. when Saori gone to meet her sister, she did not mention the defeat of titans, only posidon and hades were mention as defeated gods not titans.

as for your smal universe argument: we call that a Miniature universe and the titans dimension had multiple stars in it in case you didn`t noticed.

beating even weakened cronus is much, much impressive considering weakened titans could creat dimensions and stars/galaxies out of mid air.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

All your arguments are irrelevant. Destroying / Creating Miniature Universes is not that impressive.

They really don't need to mention the fight against the Titans, just like they don't need to mention the Sanctuary Battle, or the battle with Eris, or anything.

Also, why are you shocked about the Gold Saints that are Star Level fighting facing off galaxy level weakened Titans? This is Saint Seiya, for Christ's sake, the show where a Hypersonic Island Level warrior can go FTL and Star level out of nowhere through sheer willpower.

Also, where the hell did Saga not beat Saga? Saga never fought Shaka. The most that happened was that make-believe theater done by the renegade Saints to prove that they were allied with Hades. Neither of them went full power on Shaka. Shura used Excalibur once or twice, Camus uses Diamond Dust instead of Aurora Execution, and Saga just stood there and used an Another Dimension once (Which made Shaka tire and comment how he couldn't stand out to three Gold Saints). Then Shura and Camus pretend to be idiots and let the Tenbu Hourin affect them. If Saga wanted, he could have killed Shaka.

And I'll refrain from continuing this argument. Episode G is canonical, the evidence is right there in your face. I don't care if you find it over-the-top, or think that the artwork is awful, or anything. But it is canonical. Unlike many English-Speaking SS fans spread around the web, Masami Kurumada has never been protective of his work. In fact, Next Dimension has been going for 9 years and it has only 73 chapters. He barely cares for Saint Seiya, only being consulted for what's allowed and what's not allowed to be put in the manga and anime, writing the story drafts for Episode G and approving Okada's take on it, and writing ND once in a blue moon.

You think if he cared that much for what was canon and what is not, he'd let Omega (Which he admitted to have liked, instead of fans that whined over the inconsistencies), Legend of Sanctuary and Soul of Gold fly? Or how about staying 15 years without continuing the series?

Saint Seiya is a franchise. It currently has four ongoing manga (Lost Canvas Gaiden ending, Ep G: Assassin, Next Dimension and Saintia Sho) each by a different author, and a new Toei Anime in the works. It's there to make money and sell 300 dollar toys of bishounen in shiny armor. It has never been born of an author's desire to create a cohesive universe telling epic stories based on Greek Mythology. No. It was done so Shounen Jump could have an easily marketable and sellable series. One day Kurumada will retire / die, and you think Saint Seiya will go with him? Of course not. And what then? What when it's not Kurumada that's doing the Zeus Chapter but Megumu Okada / Shiori Teshirogi? Will that be non-canon as well?

 

[Victor2]

hows not impressive? thats the most basic universal feat comics show.

okay this is where you stop. why would gods care wht happend to sanctuary? like this is completly Irrelevant to Olympian gods and Eris never appeared in conon story so again irrelevant.

shaka stomped 3 of them with his "tenbu hourin", neither of em had enough cosmo to take him down whiout working togheter this is irrefuteble fact. if your gonna deny this for the sake of your argument go a head, you would still be wrong.

i honestly don`t care if the art is awfull, the story is amazing with titans and cronus and all i enjoyed reading it and i`ve already voted for an animated version of it as a new anime SS series.

 

[MagiSinbad]

I gonna stay out of the Olympian argument due to my lack of ND knowledge

Why destroying a Miniature Universe is not that impressive ? because the thing Mu created was the "matter" of that Miniature universe, Unlike the destructive force in the Saint Seiya, we cannot classify something like that as a universal feat, destructive force in Saint Seiya focusing on a single point and creating the matter on the atomic scale is not that much impressive, it can only classify as a mountain level feats, nothing more

The stars/galaxies ? you mean those sparks in Iepatos's dimension ? To be honest, those sparks look like some photons, only the thing in the center is actually look like a star. Even if we classify them as the stars ( Galaxies ? nope, not enough evidence ) Iepatos 's dimension is only multi-solar systerm level, no more

 

[CHILLVIBEZZ]

I'm on the fence also regarding episode G and assasin now tbh

Because if kuramada really decides to make the Cronus and rhea chapter as he stated apparently after the Zeus one it will most likely retcon everything.But until then yeah they are canon and the size of the universes doesn't really matter as long as they're space time continuums we don't rate small universes any lower than low 2-C if I'm not mistaken could be wrong

 

[MagiSinbad]

What ? '-' Low 2-C tier is only for those who created an universe that has a Space-Time continuums in it. The universe Mu created was only contain matters and that's it, it has no space-time continuums whatsoever, it's not even big enough to be classify as a 3-A feat =3=

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

... Uh, does this guy really not know that neither Saga, Shura nor Camus wanted to kill Shaka? None were giving their all in combat.

 

[Victor2]

why would they use AE then?

neither saga, shura or camus had the power to take shaka down when he was using his "tenbu Hourin" againts them which is why AE was the only option for them.

 

[MagiSinbad]

Just checked the scans, Victor was actually right. If Saga was stronger than Shaka, he could have used his GE to finishing off Shaka but they have to use AE because that's the only way to pass Shaka

However, this is not gonna change anything considering how weak is the Titans when they was being sealed

EDIT : Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiit a minute... just double checked the scan and re-read Shaka's profile, Saga was actually powerless to use GE to kill Shaka, he cant see, he cant escape nor even attack ( Going with the Vietnamese translation )

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'll say it once again. That scene requires some interpretation: None of the three saints wanted to kill Shaka, while Shaka was forcing them to kill him because he wanted to die and awaken the 8th sense. This is even stated. Case in point, Shura uses the Excalibur once and twice, Camus Diamond Dust instead of Aurora Execution and Saga just stands there, only uses the AD once, which he knows is useless cause shaka can travel through universes (And even still it leaves him tired)

 

[MagiSinbad]

Gotta agree with Matt about this o3o

Wait... isnt this thread is for Hypnos and Thanatos ?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Well, you know how when arguments that lead nowhere get derailed again? This.

Be thankful this didn't became a Saga vs Shaka argument.

 

[CHILLVIBEZZ]

The 3 saints killed Taurus so why wouldn't they kill Shaka lol that's insane and Shaka is easily above all 3 and the first one to awaken 8th sense

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The 3 saints killed Taurus so why wouldn't they kill Shaka lol that's insane and Shaka is easily above all 3 and the first one to awaken 8th sense

Deep Niobe killed Taurus, not Saga, Camus nor Shura.

And Shaka is not above Gemini Saga. nor is he above Sagittarius Aiolos. They are both stated numerous times to be the strongest Gold Saints both in classic, Next Dimension, Episode G and Soul of Gold.

 

[CHILLVIBEZZ]

You're right about the Taurus thing now that I looked about it.

But no Gemini saga is definitely bellow Shaka if his only way of escaping a tenbu hourin is by combining his power with the other 2 furthermore Agyo/Ungyo >GE but could care less about aiolos he's pretty featless

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

You're right about the Taurus thing now that I looked about it.
But no Gemini saga is definitely bellow Shaka if his only way of escaping a tenbu hourin is by combining his power with the other 2 furthermore Agyo/Ungyo >GE but could care less about aiolos he's pretty featless

He just returned in Episode G: Assassin, and he's above a guy who Seiya needed God Cloth to defeat.

 

[CHILLVIBEZZ]

Wut?

He's above Thanatos and Hypnos?

 

[MagiSinbad]

You're right about the Taurus thing now that I looked about it.
But no Gemini saga is definitely bellow Shaka if his only way of escaping a tenbu hourin is by combining his power with the other 2 furthermore Agyo/Ungyo >GE but could care less about aiolos he's pretty featless

He just returned in Episode G: Assassin, and he's above a guy who Seiya needed God Cloth to defeat.

Dayum ! now i really want to read Assassin. Too bad there's no English translation (0_Ọ)

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I was away doing important real life stuff, but yes, Aiolos returns in Episode G: Assassin.

He somehow survived the Wailing Wall, and remained living as a mysterious being in an astral form. Then, he flew through time and space, gatherine extremely powerful warriors from various legends and mythologies (So far we've seen four: Lancelot of King Arthur's tales, Sigurd from Norse Mythology, Roland from legends of Charlemagnes, Paracelsus, an alchemist from the reinassance and Alice, an odd, ethereal and inhuman young girl who can traverse through dimensions and control illusions like no one (An Alice in Wonderland expy, of all things).

Anyway, he had those warriors, armed with Holy Swords from various myth, face-off against the Saints of the 21th Century (Aries Kiki, Virgo Shun, Libra Shiryu, Aquarius Hyoga, Pegasus Seiya, as well as Leo Aiolia and Capricorn Shura who also survived, and others who haven't shown up.

Why he's doing this? To see which warriors will survive the battles and unite with the new Saints, so he'll be capable of shaping the most powerful golden army possible to face.... something.

It's all really crazy and epic and I hope it's a prelude to Zeus.

Oh yeah, here's Aiolos: http://img.yesmangas.com/br/images/saint-seiya-episode-g-assassin/45/018-019.jpg.webp

 

[Victor2]

i like people say saga and others couldn`t use thier attacks to Kill shaka, when they could move around freely and do AE (which is>>>>>GE) due to thier 7th.

so are we back to topic at hand?

anyways, lost convas is non conon. you can go and assume Ep:G is conon but it will not make lost convas any more conical since we already have ND so again, thanatos/hypnos will Kill shaka even with his "tenbu Hourin" which requires Big bang to break through. hypnoas survived seiya`s attack, took two god cloth saints to beat hypnos meanwhile thanatos was just reakless.

 

[Nkonjo]

Saga and Aiolos were the two candidates to heir to the Great pope, so just by this logic they were the strongest at the time .( It,s true that they were older thean the other gold saints tho... ) Then multiple times in the serie Saga is stated to be the strongest gold saint of his time.

I think Shaka might be the 3rd or 4th strongest gold saint depending on if Dohko can beat him if he uses his weapons

 

[Victor2]

dokho/Shion>Saga and Aiolos. its stated no one in the sanctuary can match thier power so no Saga is not the strongest Gold knight.

shaka is the strongest via feats, and can we please leave this behind since this thread is not about whos stronger between them!

 

[Nkonjo]

No not at all Dohko and Shion are totally out classed by Aiolos and Saga. Saga was the one who killed Shion it might have been a sucker punch but this feat is not insignificant.

In episode G, shaka and Aiolia struggled against Themis and Japetos. On the other hand Saga fought 1 on 1 with Cronus (spiritual form). Even if no one was declared a winner it shows us an idea of the author's ranking when it comes to power. It is only logical that the strongest gold saint faces the strongest titan.

And man have you seen how easily Saga submitted shura when he tried rebel against him, they are on two totaly different level of power, and i'm not sure if Shaka could beat Shura with this much ease.

And yee we should leave this behind and come back to the original topic of this thread.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No not at all Dohko and Shion are totally out classed by Aiolos and Saga. Saga was the one who killed Shion it might have been a sucker punch but this feat is not insignificant.
In episode G, shaka and Aiolia struggled against Themis and Japetos. On the other hand Saga fought 1 on 1 with Cronus (spiritual form). Even if no one was declared a winner it shows us an idea of the author's ranking when it comes to power. It is only logical that the strongest gold saint faces the strongest titan.

And man have you seen how easily Saga submitted shura when he tried rebel against him, they are on two totaly different level of power, and i'm not sure if Shaka could beat Shura with this much ease.

And yee we should leave this behind and come back to the original topic of this thread.

Shion was old at the time. Saga himself states that Dohko is the most dangerous of all Gold Saints, and the one he feared most.

Saga easily submitted Shura, yes. But Shion stomped Seiya, Shiryu, Hyoga and Shun all at once without resorting to any special ability. And they are all Gold Saint level.

But getting back to the topic at hand... No, Thanatos and Hypnos should not be upgraded. Shaka is wanked beyond belief, and I plan on making a Blog Post showing what he really is.

 

[Victor2]

Lol at shaka being wanked where he is the most lowballed gold saint.

when shaka used his "Tenbuhourin" he stomped saga, shura and camus and you still wanna argue shaka is wanked when he did not use any of his special ability while fighting them combined where they did againts shaka? really dude

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Lol at shaka being wanked where he is the most lowballed gold saint.
when shaka used his "Tenbuhourin" he stomped saga, shura and camus and you still wanna argue shaka is wanked when he did not use any of his special ability while fighting them combined where they did againts shaka? really dude

Yes. Because not only were Saga, Shura and Camus not trying, not using their strongest moves, but where also using vastly weaker armors (Cracked at the Tenbu Hourin, when Gold Cloths don't even crack with Galaxian Explosion.), Athena herself stated that they did not want to kill Shaka, while Shaka was wanting to die the whole time, burning his Cosmos while being hit by the AE to be able to achieve the 8th sense. Oh, and look at the actual fight and Shaka was having difficulties with fighting the three, and stated that he couldn't endure them for much longer.

And if you are going to use the 8th Sense argument to "prove" that Shaka is the strongest... Don't. Dohko already had the 8th Sense, and Kanon (Who's weaker than Saga) awakened it with 0 outside help. Shaka has never been stated to be the strongest. In both the Classic Manga, Next Dimension and Soul of Gold Saga is stated to be the strongest Gold Saint of the 20th Century, Aiolos not withstanding. You are suggesting that Shaka's what? Multi-Galaxy+ Durability and Attack Potency? Don't be ridiculous. Shaka while sealing his Sight is equal to Aiolia, who's Star level. Do you really think the Cosmos gained from one sealed sense makes him literally billions of times stronger? Please, stop.

Shaka is wanked beyond belief by people who don't understand the context of that fight, and don't even understand the mechanics of Saint Seiya. I've seen people wanting him to be 2-B.

 

[Panemorfos]

Lol at shaka being wanked where he is the most lowballed gold saint.
when shaka used his "Tenbuhourin" he stomped saga, shura and camus and you still wanna argue shaka is wanked when he did not use any of his special ability while fighting them combined where they did againts shaka? really dude

Shaka is the most powerful Virgo Saint ever as of now. Shijima stated it. But it has been said numerous times that Saga is the most powerful saint if his generation. And, yeah, Shaka has always been wanked. Not only here, but whenever there is a Saint Seiya conversation, it always leads to Shaka being above any gold saint.

Most powerful Gold Saints alive during the 20 century are: n1 Dohko (greatest raw strength and Libra weapons coupled with immense cosmo), n2 Saga (it has been stated at least 5 times that he is the best of his generation), n3 Shaka. If Aiolos was alive he would be above Shaka, since he was the strongest saint when he was alive, but he was killed so Shaka is above him.

 

[Nkonjo]

Could we start another thread where the gold saints could be ranked, and close this debate once and for all ?

The way I see it Saga and Aiolos are the strongest then there is Dohko and Shaka but I might be mistaken ...

 

[Panemorfos]

Could we start another thread where the gold saints could be ranked, and close this debate once and for all ?
The way I see it Saga and Aiolos are the strongest then there is Dohko and Shaka but I might be mistaken ...

Great idea. Has been a lot time since i have had a debate about the strongest goldies.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Matthew_Schroeder/Virgo_Shaka:_The_Man_VS_The_Myth