Upgrade/New Key for the Chaos Gods

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Making a proper thread for this because it is more professional than simply discussing it in a different upgrade thread.

As some people may know, a while ago the Chaos Gods of Warhammer 40,000 were upgraded to "At least 1-C, likely Low 1-B" based on statements from the Eye of Terror novel which stated that a Warp-Realspace overlap resulted in a 12-D landscape. While this novel is old, it is still part of the lore, and was even reprinted in the Book of the Lion collection.

However, more recent statements from the 6th edition Chaos Daemons Codex instead suggest the Warp to be entirely dimensionless and unbound by things such as physics and mathematics. A small sampling of them are as follows.

• "Beyond the boundaries of physical space, unrestricted by time or causality, there is a dimension utterly incomprehensible to mortal minds. It lies on the other side of dreams and nightmares, infinite in scope but without form or structure."

• "It is a dimension parallel to our own, a universe devoid of consistency and unbound by the laws of time and space, a random, unstructured panorama of pure energy and unfocused consciousness. It is Chaos in its truest sense, unfettered by the limits of physics and undirected by intelligent purpose."

• "Daemons have no physical presence within the Warp. The Realm of Chaos is anathema to the laws of physics and the ships that navigate its depths do so by taking a skin or bubble of 'reality' with them when they enter."

• "The Warp had no physical dimensions and the Realm of Chaos is without limits or true geography."

It is also important to note that the reason this is important is because the Chaos Gods would not just be entities living in the Warp; they are literally the Warp itself.

• "Warp Space is Chaos, Chaos is Warp space; the two are indivisible."

Because of this, I feel these statements point towards a "Likely 1-A" rating, with the repeated suggestions of physics and dimensions having no hold on the gods of Chaos. This rating would apply to:

• Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, and Slaanesh, who are the four main gods of Chaos.

• Kaela Mensha Khaine, as he fought on near equal footing with Slaanesh while it was likely strongest.

• Aza'gorod the Nightbringer, who was stated to have engaged in a massive battle with Khaine, only being defeated when Khaine managed to knock the Nightbringer's weapon into the Warp, as the C'tan and the Warp are essentially opposites and cannot interact.

• The God Emperor of Mankind, whose immense psychic presence is enough to actually force back the Chaos Gods.

• Gork and Mork, who are Warp Gods similar to the Chaos Gods, and have been stated to be of similar power.

• Skarbrand, who at his prime, was the strongest servant of Khorne, and even actually put a ***** in Khorne's armour while he sat on his throne.

It was suggested by Ant that we carry out these upgrades via a new key, the old tier 1 ratings being "Pre-retcon" and the new ones being "Post-retcon". This could work, though the problem is there has never really been an official retcon, as both stories are technically canon, but from very far apart. As such, any ideas for key names would be greatly appreciated.

Thoughts?

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Well the upgrades for these are sound and are alright enough for me.

Names for keys? Oooooohh......

 

[Cropfist]

Upgrades look alright, and maybe "Eye of Terror | Chaos Daemons Codex"?

 

[Promestein]

I support the upgrades.

I don't think calling it a retcon is appropriate, but splitting it as Crop suggested seems fine.

Also, the Horned Rat too, yes?

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

There's no other names for them than what Cropfist gave so, and unless anyone can make up better ones(?), his suggestions are fine enough for me...

 

[Aparajita]

Hell yeah, always thought this. Good shit, Azzy.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Prom

Yeah. Horned Rat should scale, even though he's not a 40k character, since the Warp is supposed to connect to both continuities (******* Draigo even appears in End Times).

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Alright, so counting Ant, who gave his approval in the other thread, there are five people in favor of the upgrade, with the keys likely being listed as something like "In the Warp (Eye of Terror novel) | In the Warp (Chaos Daemons codex)". Any more opinions on the upgrades or what the keys should be listed as?

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

As i always tell people of this, it's best to be safe and get a few more replies on this.

 

[Lina_Shields]

@Azzy:Considering Skarbrand was able to make a dent on Khorne's armor, would An'ggrath the Unbound scale to this as well considering we know for a fact that An'ggrath > Skarbrand (This would include being inside the warp)?

On-Topic:

However, I noticed this statement.

Beyond the boundaries of physical space, unrestricted by time or causality, there is a dimension utterly incomprehensible to mortal minds. It lies on the other side of dreams and nightmares, infinite in scope but without form or structure

Seeing the infinite statement, as well as the existence of the word "dimensions", I am not sure if this upgrade would be enough to qualify as a "Likely 1-A" rating. This is because to qualify as 1-A, you would literally have to transcend both the concept of dimensions, as well as the term infinity altogether.

• At least High Hyperverse level (They exist in a dimension where it is incomprehensible to the minds or mortals, where it is infinite in scope with no form or structure)

would be a more appropriate rating. This would be High 1-B btw.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

An'ggrath would probably scale in the Warp, though I don't think he's more powerful than peak Skarbrand, just current Skarbrand, who was mutilated and thrown across the Warp by Khorne.

As for the High Hyperversal thing, statements such as "The Warp had no physical dimensions and the Realm of Chaos is without limits or true geography." lean far more towards dimensionless than infinite dimensional. I believe the only thing implying infinite dimensional would be a quote about Tzeentch's castle, implying that it might be an infinite dimensional construct that endlessly shifts and folds in on itself, but even that is just something Tzeentch created.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, a retcon does not need to be official to count as one. It simply requires a severe change of the rules for a character or setting.

Within American comics, there are retcons all the time, passed off as "New information about how things always were. You just did not know it then".

There was no official retcon statement about either the Beyonder or the One-Above-All either, but we still feature them as such, due to the massive changes in the systems that defined them.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Hmm...then perhaps "In the Warp (Original) | In the Warp (Current)" would suffice? Not sure.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose, although I think that Pre-Retcon and Post-Retcon is closer to our usual standards for this, and is easier for visitors to understand.

 

[DarkLK]

It is much easier to prove that a certain character ignores durability than fact that it has infinite power. The same with high 1-B and 1-A. I can understand why it's possibly 1-A, but I do not see anything resembling a high 1-B.

However, in fiction, there are many similar descriptions of the characters who are not 1-A, not even close.

Beyond comprehension, beyond physics, etc. Remember Galactus. Or we could get a possible 1-A Beatrice.

 

[Lina_Shields]

@DarkLK: So, what is your actual consensus regarding this? Would Azzy's proposal of "Likely Outerverse level" apply to this? It does say...

"The Warp had no physical dimensions and the Realm of Chaos is without limits or true geography."

meaning that the Warp is most likely beyond the realm of dimensions (the concept of dimensions) altogether. I think that this is a similar case to 1-A Beatrice...

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Dark

In the case of Galactus, obviously him being a completely dimensionless being contradicts virtually every other showing from him, beings of his level, and beings more powerful than him, so yeah of course we couldn't use that.

The problem here is that our current reason for the Low 1-B is that we were given explicit mention of a Warp-realspace overlap resulting in a 12-D landscape, which the Chaos Gods could still obviously fully understand and navigate, for they are the Warp itself.

Now, over a decade later, we have a codex that instead makes repeated statements that the Warp has no physical dimensions or boundaries, and is beyond such things as physics. This is in-line with what the Chaos Gods have shown in the Warp and what has been said about them, but not in line with the previous 12-D feat. However, this is the more recent lore, which is why I believe Ant was proposing a "Pre-Retcon/Post-Retcon" set of keys.

 

[DarkLK]

@DarkLK: So, what is your actual consensus regarding this? Would Azzy's proposal of "Likely Outerverse level" apply to this? It does say...

"The Warp had no physical dimensions and the Realm of Chaos is without limits or true geography."

meaning that the Warp is most likely beyond the realm of dimensions (the concept of dimensions) altogether. I think that this is a similar case to 1-A Beatrice...

Instead physical dimensions there can be metaphysical dimensions. Where there is no matter, but there are some abstract analogues for the size, scale, etc. After all, it still is "a dimension parallel to our own, a universe".

And I mean the piece Beatrice only.

 

[Antvasima]

That is a good point.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

That is very true, though the Warp is often referred to as a "dimension" or "universe" only due to lack of better terminology, not because it is entirely accurate. It is a similar case as to how each God is supposed to have their own territory in the Warp, despite the fact the Warp has no real landscape and it is more done as a way to visualize and depict emotions or ideas. For instance, Khorne's realm is said to be full of a rivers of blood, warriors clashing with brass armour, a throne of skulls, and a giant form representing Khorne sitting in the center. However, this is just a visualization for us and not truly how things actually are, for the gods' forms are not actually the gods; the entirety of their territory is, and yet what is seen is just a representation of concepts, thoughts, and feelings in a way we would think of when experiencing the energy of unreality flowing from them.

It might also be important to note that while the Warp Gods likely have some type of metaphysical dimensional analogue, as do any dimensionless beings that still experience some kind of change (Cthulhu Mythos example: Great Old Ones would have this, while Outer Gods wouldn't), the physical realm that the Chaos Gods transcend is already speculated to be an infinite dimensional structure with endless possible alternate realities of differing levels.

"'The central conceit is that our visible, four-dimensional universe is restricted to a brane, that is, a membrane, inside a higher dimensional space,' he begins, and already I feel any hope of comprehension fall away. 'A theoretically infinite number of dimensions of potentially infinite scale occupy other branes, which, in effect, means there can be an endless series of alternate realities, intersecting with our own in ways we cannot possibly imagine in any currently posited cosmological model.' " - Knights of the Imperium

 

[Lina_Shields]

I think that Azzy makes sense.

 

[Antvasima]

I do as well, but as usual, I defer to DarkLK, as he knows best about how these concepts function.

 

[DarkLK]

It sounds better. Although fairly vague wording. It seems that in spite of the references to a higher dimension, the "infinite number of dimension" in this context will still represent just endless parallel realities.

In the rest, I do not see anything special compared to other fictions. Let's look at this guy. His body does not exist. He is a concept, a spiritual/mental being. He is beyond time, causality and logic. The principles of geometry fundamentally disturbed in his world (high-dimensional worlds within the low-dimensional objects). But I'm not sure that we should try to give him some kind of a high tier.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yes, there is often a problem with wording being a bit vague, which likely stems from the fact much of it is flowery descriptions coupled with techno jargon, making certain things difficult to properly judge. Though in this case, I can see it leaning more towards the dimensions = actual dimensions side of things, mainly due to the mention of an endless series of alternate realities, and the train of thought having the structure of "There can be infinite parallel universes, thus there can be infinite parallel realities" doesn't seem as logical as "There can be infinite higher dimensions, thus there can be infinite parallel realities", especially with the mention of intersecting branes in a higher dimensional space. However, as I said before, the particular use of language does make it difficult to judge 100% accurately.

Again, very true, though with the Chaos Gods, it is more that we have an idea of their level of power in a slightly less vague sense. Their control over their own being is absolute, and we know they transcend normal reality in a way that said reality is viewed as just a game to them. However, their interaction with things that do not share their nature or enter their domain is limited, though that does not mean they don't completely transcend it. For instance, nothing that is considered to be "real" or that occupies physical dimensions can hold any sway over the gods, though they can interact with it, albeit in a limited manner from their dimensionless "Warp Space".

I will check through the Daemons codex for more potential things, later. I need to go, for now. I'll post if I find anything that can make things more clear.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Looking through the codex, again. Here are what are probably a few more relevant quotes.

• This one is about the castle Tzeentch created.

"The Hidden Library is infinite in dimension and constantly folds in upon itself..."

• This one is also about Tzeentch, stating that at the peak of his power, he had control over all of creation, which would include all physical dimensions of realspace.

"It is fortunate for the mortal races of the galaxy that the pair are almost constantly interrupted in their quest by the conflicts of Tzeentch's enemies and by each other, for if they ever accomplish their mission, Tzeentch will regain his supremacy and once more rule over all of creation."

• This one is about the place where space and time begin and end, which is described as having "infinite depths", which is similar to the Knights of the Imperium statement about infinite dimensions. It should be noted that while Tzeentch was unsure he would survive diving in, that is likely because he does not know its secrets, as his vizier Fateweaver survived the ordeal.

"Of all the puzzles in the multiverse, there is but one that escapes Tzeentch's ability to solve -- the Well of Eternity. Lying in the heart of the Impossible Fortress, the mystic Well is said to be the place where space and time originate and end. To understand it, Tzeentch would need only to enter its infinite depths, but even he cannot be sure of surviving the raging maelstrom."

Will update if I find more.

 

[DarkLK]

The problem is that there are still such things are used.

Of all the outlandish landscapes to be found in the Realm of Chaos, Tzeentch's domain is the most bizarre and incomprehensible to mortals. His realm is woven from the raw fabric of magic. The Crystal Labyrinth, as it is known, sits upon an immense irridescent plateau, its presence felt across all of the daemonic realms. Shifting avenues made from crystals of every colour criss-cross Tzeentch's realm as it contorts through nine dimensions of space at once. Hidden pathways built from lies and schemes infiltrate the dominions of the other Chaos Gods, binding together the fractious Realm of Chaos the better to direct them to Tzeentch's will.

In addition, there is a separation between the Chaos and the "material dimension."

The psychic battle raged for days of subjective time, and swathes of Nurgle's garden were blasted to ruin in the process. However, in the material dimension, the physical forms of the trespassing Seers began to convulse and shake, succumbing to the very plague they had hoped to overcome.

In addition, as far as I can remember, even Tzeentch afraid to fall into the Well of Eternity.

So personally I would not dare to give them high rankings. You can do what you want though.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. It may be best to be cautious then.

 

[Aparajita]

In the Blue Scribes it says

"There was a time when Tzeentch ruled supreme over the other Gods of Chaos, his powers vastly superior than those of any of the Four."

In the end it took all of the other gods of the warp to overthrow him. How would this affect Tzneecht?

 

[Antvasima]

Not at all. At this level, being 4x, or any finite number of times stronger, does not affect the tier.

 

[Aparajita]

Not at all. At this level, being 4x, or any finite number of times stronger, does not affect the tier.

However, when you see the implications.

Each of the Chaos Gods are said to have complete control over their domains. This means that Slaanesh's Domain is his/hers and she/he has complete control over it. Much like Khorne, Nurgle, and etc.

If these domains are infinite, beyond dimensions and the concept of dimensions, and Tzneecht would have his domain at one point to being the entireity of the Warp.

I was only curious because Tzneecht would have absolute control over 4 beyond dimensional "spaces" if you will, "Domains"

 

[Antvasima]

It would still be 1-A. However, DarkLK is skeptical about whether the Chaos Gods qualify.

 

[Lina_Shields]

Is there a specific list available on ACF in regards to the requirements for a character to have a 1-A tiering? It seems that most of us here seem to be rather, confused on this subject.

I would have thought that he/she would just have to transcend the dimensional system entirely in order to achieve 1-A? However, those dimensions described would have to be actual layers on top of another (5-D, 6-D, etc) and not dimensions = worlds/universes.

 

[Antvasima]

I inserted a description into our tiering page based on DarkLK's instructions some time ago.

However, I do not know of a more thorough explanation page.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Dark

Yes, Tzeentch was afraid to enter the Well of Eternity, because he did not know what would happen, and he is used to knowing everything. After all, Fateweaver, who is nowhere near Tzeentch's level, survived being thrown into the Well (by Tzeentch lol).

The main problem is, as vague as the wording on a lot of things is, we do have repeated statements of the Chaos Gods transcending realspace and not being bound by physical dimensions, so even assuming they could only exert power over say...a 12-D level of existence, assingning their same, dimensionless essence a comparable durability seems rather odd.

Of course, I will continue looking for more quotes to potentially help clear things up, as Daemon lore is all over the place.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Still looking for quotes, but I did find the rest of that Tzeentch one.

"The Hidden Library is infinite in dimensions and constantly folds in upon itself under the weight of its own density."

Will continue to look.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks for the help.

 

[DarkLK]

The infinite three-dimensional object will also be "infinite in dimensions", because it has infinite length width and height.

 

[Antvasima]

That is true.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I know. The ambiguity is why I am still looking for things more straightforward.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Reading through the Index Chaotica. Here are some relevant quotes.

• The center of the Eye of Terror, which is most heavily connected to the Warp, is unbound by all laws of space, time, and reality.

"At the centre of the Eye of Terror, the powers of the Warp run strongest, meaning the laws of space, time and reality do not apply. Some worlds are flat, floating planes spinning in the ether, others are surrounded by fireballs, while tiered worlds rise up, supported by intertwining pillars. No one can say how these realities exist, save that the pure power of Chaos washes over them and has made them so."

• The Chaos Gods are beyond the concept of time, as opposed to just transcending basic time.

"In the centre, time not only does not flow, but also does not exist as a concept, save for when such trivialities might please the Dark Gods themselves."

• This one is more just things we already know, but it is once again suggested the Warp is "above" reality, as Nurgle's brew has to ooze "down" to reach it.

"Whenever Father Nurgle wishes to make a sudden incursion into the mortal realm, he tips over the cauldron. The noxious substance oozes down the steps of his house, eventually spilling into the mortal realm."