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Upgrade to those who are made of data.

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Seems good. Now it is just about changing characters and seeing where actual fiction falls into the tier. Should i contact some of the people agnaa mentioned?
 
Isn't the dimensional tiering for ratings based off of dimensions being used as a metaphor for layers of reality/fiction interaction in that one light novel? Wouldn't that render fictional characters 2D by the same logic that gets us the "seeing X as fiction" as a level of dimensional transcendence?
 
This is an interesting thread. I don't think we should make a special rule for people that are fictional in the context or their universes, but that's just my opinion.
 
A sentient drawing would be low 10-C.

On the other hand if we are not talking about a living physical manifestation of fiction, which is in itself not fictional, but a character that is actually fictional that can be viewed as tier 11.

That said, whether such characters should actually be ranked as tier 11 depends on circumstances. For the sake of debate its usually better to rate fiction within fiction characters as if they were real.
 
I am fine with characters made of data being rated as 10-C.

But I heavily disagree with characters who exist as fictional constructs being rated at 11-A, since that would imply that they exist as 2-dimensional entities, which is just plain wrong.

A 2-dimensional being would be very small by our understards, yeah, but they still possess some degree of physicality and magnitude. It's just that they have only two parameters / coordinates describing their size and position in space.

Meanwhile, an actual fictional construct (Say, a character from a Novel) is fully abstract and lacks any actual physicality. It is only defined and described by syntax and language, as opposed to actual physical parameters of any kind.

I'd also like to point out that we do acknowledge that the difference between Reality and Fiction is greater than the difference between higher and lower dimensional spaces. It's just that we group them under the same Tiers because we dun kno de wey there are no other options.
 
@Ultima Is your suggestion then to rate them at 11-C instead of 11-A?

Also we do have another option, we could say that seeing reality as fiction means that a character would have to be 6-D. Since to us, fictional constructs are dimensionless (i.e. 0-D), so seeing 3-D beings as fictional would require a difference of 3 dimensions.
 
Pretty much something along those lines, yeah.

I don't think it make sense to arbitrarily establish a dimensional difference for layers within a reality-fiction hierarchy. Higher Dimensions are just additional extensions of space/time movement that we for some reason treat as being infinitely bigger than lower dimensions, while layers in the context of a Composite Hierarchy are usually far more abstract and metaphysical stuff.

Unless you want to say that adding three more Dimensions to some space allows it to somehow surpass the difference between Reality and Fiction, I don't think this is a good suggestion

regardless, I think that is a discussion for another thread, and actually something that I intend to tackle in my revisions of the Tiering System in the future. So, I really think it is better to leave it be for now.
 
I don't think fictional constructs being 0-D is really accurate, a point is something that has a position in space and nothing else, a fictional story doesn't even exist in reality but is much more than a position in our imagination.
 
@Ultima Not every piece of fiction can be neatly equalized, but we try our best to not overly inflate/deflate the tiers of one piece of fiction over another.

Leaving it for now would mean fictional characters would remain 11-A for the time-being?

@Andy 11-C also covers beings qualitatively inferior to 0-dimensions (i.e. qualitatively inferior to anything that's real), to give SCP-2747 a tier and to give an infinite low-end to the system, similar to our infinite high ends of 1-A and 0.
 
@Agnaa

I fail to see how this relates to my point. Trying to establish a dimensional difference between Reality and Fiction is arbitrary and basically wanks Dimensions to ridiculous heights. Saying that the "superiority" Reality has over abstractions like Fictional Constructs equals 3 dimensions is no different than what we already do. It changes nothing.

Most likely, yeah.
 
If changing the dimensional difference we equalize reality-fiction differences to doesn't matter, then why shouldn't fictional beings just be rated at 11-A?

You're trying to change a standard that we already apply consistently (reality-fiction difference is one dimension) and change it to be inconsistent (reality-fiction difference is three dimensions when going down, but one dimension when going up). I'm trying to re-establish consistency (reality-fiction difference is always three dimensions).
 
I actually agree with that point. Hence why I agreed that fictional beings should remain at 11-A for the time being until the dimensional tiering revisions start to gain traction in like, 3 years tops
 
Well, I still don't think that we should scrap dimensional tiering in its entirety. It makes sense from a geometric perspective, and some fictions treat higher dimensions as qualitatively superior. As long as the latter requirement is fulfilled, it should be fine.
 
We aren't scrapping dimensional tiering, we're just making the definitions of dimensions more fleshed out and elaborating what actually qualifies as High 2-A and above and all that.
 
Iapitus The Impaler said:
Was anyone actually suggesting we scrap dimensional tiering as a whole?
Click to expand...
No-one experienced with the site has seriously recommended scrapping it for this site. Some people not very familiar with the site think it shouldn't be used. Some users have tried starting up other sites without dimensional tiering.

imo it's arbitrary whether we use dimensional tiering or not but changing 19,000 pages to move from one arbitrary standard to another is not worthwhile.
 
@DDM I see. Are you one of the staff members involved in this? If so, there is an interesting verse I would like your help with in regards to the new changes
 
@Iapitus, not necessary one of the main people; though I do try to help out with what I can. But more or less sharing my understanding of what I looked over. Obviously the High 2-A to High 1-B tiers will still exist, it's just we won't be using vague "11-dimensions" as enough reason for a High 1-C rating.
 
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2963441

Here is the thread is question. It is a hierarchy composed of either infinite or approaching infinite layers of reality fiction differences (depending on whom is dreaming the hierarchy into existence). However, in a given layer, the characters would still seemingly be the same physically if you existed in the same layer. For example, if you somehow moved a gun into a higher layer that gun would be transcendent of you, but you you also moved up with that gun then it would be as if nothing had changed.
 
@Iapitus

Well, Ultima implied it. I just wanted to make sure that he sticks to the plan that Medeus mentioned, and doesn't go overboard.

He is supposed to discuss the issue with DontTalkDT until they reach a conclusion. Then he is supposed to inform me in private about it, and after we reach an agreement, the revisions can start.
 
I'd like to point out that I am not intending to go too overboard here. Establishing a proper division between higher / lower dimensions and layers in a composite hierarchy was something I had in mind since Day 1, though I wasn't sure how to make it work at the time.

Sure, a few changes have been made to the original proposal since then, but the core idea is basically the same from a practical standpoint.
 
Reality-Fiction hierarchy =/= Reality-Fiction difference people. A composite hierarchy is a cosmology with a metaphorical reality-fiction distinction between layers - whereas different layers have a difference similar to the difference between what's real and therefore relevant and what's "less than real" and therefore irrelevant. Basically to higher order beings, lower order beings are as irrelevant as a drawing on a piece paper is to you. Often, these layers have a greater difference between them than the difference between lower/higher dimensions. We never said they were equivocal, we said they are applicable to the system. Context. Is. Key.

There is no actual difference between reality and fiction other than one being real (as we define it) and one being fantasy. That's literally the most basic law of literature. Who Framed Roger Rabbit is not real. It's fiction. It's made up. Imaginary. That doesn't mean the film is two-dimensional, nor one or zero-dimensional. There's no dimensional difference between reality and fiction.

Please stop overthinking things. Go by feats and call it a day.
 
Sera more or less hammered the nail in the thread. And yeah, Fiction with in Fiction is a case by case scenario and doesn't always refer to one existing in a sub-dimensional plane and the other in a higher dimensional plane.
 
Reality-Fiction hierarchy =/= Reality-Fiction difference people. A composite hierarchy is a cosmology with a metaphorical reality-fiction distinction between layers - whereas different layers have a difference similar to the difference between what's real and therefore relevant and what's "less than real" and therefore irrelevant.

There's no dimensional difference between reality and fiction.

@Sera And for cosmologies that have a literal reality-fiction distinction between layers? Is being reality-fiction levels above/below reality still irrelevant? Is SCP-3812 10-B because the many reality-fiction differences he has over reality don't matter?
 
Is being reality-fiction levels above/below reality still irrelevant?

Attack Potency wise? Yes it's irrelevant. Also, don't take this as me having something personal against SCP but it's literally the worst example you could've used.

If the difference between them is treated as a qualitative superiority, then of course it counts as a dimensional level above, that is an equivocal applicatio of a dimensional-like difference between layers. But something just being fictional? That's irrelevant to Attack Potency and Durability.
 
It's just the only example I'm familiar with on this.

While most of the time it's treated as just being fictional, it is sometimes treated as a qualitative superiority, so I guess that's enough?

I'm not sure exactly what kind of evidence would be needed to meet these new standards.
 
There are no new standards. The standard has always been a qualitative difference. That's why Umineko's cosmology and I/O can be applied under our tier system.
 
Oh, I assumed what you were talking about was new with this thread, as there's been a fair bit of discussion about what tier fictional characters should have in this thread. At least, the standards that you brought up (being fictional is irrelevant to AP and Durability) are standards that I've never known existed.
 
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