Upgrading Spider-Man.

[ImagoDesattrolante]

I found:

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=22488

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=22346

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=22359

According to this...I think Spider-Man needs an upgrade.

 

[SomebodyData]

While I personally agree, the power in Marvel characters tends to change greatly, so just be wary about that.

 

[Darkness552]

so Hypersonic spidey

and small town level spidey

hmm interesting i guess it could pass but ill wait for a bit more people to give input

 

[ImagoDesattrolante]

so Hypersonic spidey
and small town level spidey

hmm interesting i guess it could pass but ill wait for a bit more people to give input

Could you highlight this?

 

[Darkness552]

yea

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. I am too tired to check the calculations, but intuitively such values seem like massive outliers. If he could move at hypersonic speeds and destroy object that can withstand small nuclear explosions, he would not have problem with virtually any of his regular opponents. Then again, I will check them out later.

 

[CHILLVIBEZZ]

Comic book characters have potrayed showings so inconsistently they have their own exclusive power scaling I believe but if the calc is legit and the upgrade isn't immense and leading to belief of outlier then why not I guess.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

I'm the same with CHILL here.

 

[Darkness552]

i do think the calcs are using powerscaling to get their values now that i looked at it again

 

[ChaosTheory123]

Hmm. I am too tired to check the calculations, but intuitively such values seem like massive outliers. If he could move at hypersonic speeds and destroy object that can withstand small nuclear explosions, he would not have problem with virtually any of his regular opponents. Then again, I will check them out later.

As a guy that's only read about 120 or so of his comics and skimmed about 1000 (want to read them, but I don't have the time for now)?

Don't see how he's any less inconsistent than other characters in fiction

Don't like some of the results I get (I hate the Spider-Man pushes the Hulk one about as much as Squall's speed feat of catching a massively hypersonic Rinoa after the Lunar Cry [granted, that feat is dated in utility, but it elicited the same feelings]), but I try to keep impartial and consistent in how I treat every fiction

Pure volume of "high end" feats I've seen?

Doesn't really differ all that much from a series like Old EU Star Wars or Dragon Ball

You're free to link me to that Marvel Editor article of yours here, but I'm about as quick to treat it seriously as I do their comically stupid data books *shrugs* (however that strength system is supposed to function [because hell if I actually know], you get nothing north of wall level even at Class 100 if taken as "I can bench 100 tons"). The page itself frankly strikes me as hypocritical (though you're free to prove me wrong if you ever run across similar stated mindsets for other series), but this is your site, this hobby is stupid, and all's subjective.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I agree with you about that the "Class 100" scale is purely representative regarding whether or not characters are comparative to each other, not to be taken literally, but I do still generally trust the official word regarding Marvel's own characters, and unlike you, I have probably read tens of thousands of Marvel and DC comicbooks, so to me the inconsistencies between different writers turn more apparent and ridiculously extreme.

 

[Antvasima]

Regardless, for the first speed "feat", it is very apparent from the narrative that the sphere took a while before it started to take off, and Spider-Man's precognition allowed him to react before that happened. I see it as invalid due to illogical foundation.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, putting out an arm in a fight against a speedster pointlessly running around in circles around you, is a very standard storytelling trick, as it is virtually the only way that a much slower character can be shown capable of dealing with them. It has been used quite recurrently. However, it does not scale properly, as it is strictly Plot Induced Stupidity, and relies upon the assumption that the speedster cannot efficiently react at those speeds.

 

[Sheoth]

I'm with Ant, these reasons for an upgrade somewhat contradict our rules on Marvel character stats.

 

[ChaosTheory123]

Regardless, for the first speed "feat", it is very apparent from the narrative that the sphere took a while before it started to take off, and Spider-Man's precognition allowed him to react before that happened. I see it as invalid due to illogical foundation.

You don't know how netwon's laws work?

I mean, granted, I did say this hobby is subjective, but this is the kind of reaching that leaves me gaping like a goldfish

Call it an outlier, I can work with that, but let's not pretend this isn't anything more than cognitive dissonance on your part buddy regarding the actual physics :maybe

 

[ChaosTheory123]

Also, putting out an arm in a fight against a speedster pointlessly running around in circles around you, is a very standard storytelling trick, as it is virtually the only way that a much slower character can be shown capable of dealing with them. It has been used quite recurrently. However, it does not scale properly, as it is strictly Plot Induced Stupidity, and relies upon the assumption that the speedster cannot efficiently react at those speeds.

Could you try not to insult me? :maybe

Call it an outlier or whatever you want, that's just a difference in standards, but this half assed trope shit?

You're feeding that to me?

Really?

 

[Antvasima]

Regardless how Newtons laws work in real life, it is very apparent within the context of this story that the sphere in question took its time before it started to accelerate, and the "put out an arm, watch the speedster character run right into it due to repetitive mindless movement without looking where they are going" trope really is quite common. Neither work for a solid evaluation.

Also, watch the tone please. You are a guest in this wiki.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

I sort of want to agree with Chaos, seeing as not only am I greatly familiar (and I will admit you must be biased warned, he's my favorite Marvel hero) with Spider-Man, I also think he is higher, but not by much than what he is.

I think he's (Chaos) providing a few things that lean toward him being faster than what he is, especially in combat (Always remember that Spidey-Sense). I won't talk calcs just yet. However, Small Town Level in anything but an attack where he swings around the Daily Bugle (just making semi-feasible stuff up) in a spiderweb bag and tossed it as hard as he could toward a town, yeah, it COULD, but I don't think he's there at all.

But what Ant says, holds ground to me.

Also, ChaosTheory132, please don't swear. Read the rules. (Sorry, if I seem like brown nose, I just don't want to over step my boundaries when i just got here last month).

 

[Antvasima]

I don't mind upgrades. I just mind these particular two instances.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

Ant, if we do consider these based on those instances, what about other characters on the wiki that have calcs like this that play on tropes, clichés or gags? I will keep an out out for them as I do, along with being a copy editing dork, if there are any. It's a huge wiki.

Besides that, I can't argue for the speed boost when I recall that the spider sense is a constant alert that we don't always see when it happens. Spider-Man could have stuck it out when his instincts told him to. That's closer to reaction time than another speed feat, anyway.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I seem to recall even seeing the Hulk successfully try this trick against speedsters, so I am very skeptical towards it.

And as always, several wrongs do not make a right. Just because another character's Plot Induced Stupidity gag or trope "feat" may have been inserted somewhere does not mean that we should automatically accept all of them.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

I agree. Maybe we should disregard this until we get another submission to bump him up. I would like to him be higher.

 

[Antvasima]

In addition, if Spider-Man could truly move and react at speeds comparable with Quicksilver he would not have been completely outclassed in the first place during the rest of the story.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

I missed that part, but yeah. Othewise, I think he's fine right now. No need to wank or buff with this.

 

[ChaosTheory123]

Regardless how Newtons laws work in real life, it is very apparent within the context of this story the sphere in question took its time before it started to accelerate, and the "put out an arm, watch the speedster character run right into it due to repetitive mindless movement without looking where they are going" trope really is quite common. Neither work for a solid evaluation.
Also, watch the tone please. You are a guest in this wiki.

Nah, you're reading what you want to into it is all

Could it be how you see it?

Sure, but the wording supports my interpretation too, and I have physics based grounds to claim it (not even really anything complex, talking like... the second major thing you learn in a high school physics class? Right after vectors IIRC)

It started accelerating the moment the Hulk was no longer supporting it (well, no, it started the moment the Hulk punched the first, but he's a strong enough cuss to offer momentary resistance), the moment Spidey hit him (thus no longer providing the resistance previously holding it from flying off into the aether), still needs to move his and the Hulk's ass a body length or 2 out of the way.

Like I said, you're talking to a guy that, while he hates a feat like "Squall catching Rinoa after being hit by the Lunar Cry" as a speed feat... I still don't ignore the fact it's a feat just because its a trope or ignores a general trope convention. Things happen, you gauge them. If that's not your thing, fair enough, but that's not how it looks like you handle things with most your profiles (that I've read anyway) *shrugs*

My tone? :hmm

I'm crass, tease, and otherwise take this with all the seriousness of any old children's cartoon. I'll try being more cognizant of my demeanor though, for what little that's worth.

 

[ChaosTheory123]

Also, ChaosTheory132, please don't swear. Read the rules. (Sorry, if I seem like brown nose, I just don't want to over step my boundaries when i just got here last month).

I'm aware

I've even preemptively apologized for the fact I have no filter a while back

And why apologize? You're noting something you think needs to be addressed. That's not a big deal

Or was that Ant you were addressing? :hmm

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the way I understand it, the spheres were connected to each other by an attraction force. We see Hulk punch one of them away while still holding on to the other. If the second, still stationary, sphere had instantly started to move at escape velocity, the Hulk would not have had the chance to react, he would simply have been instantly swept away along with it the moment of his punch.

However, this is an old Chris Claremont story, and that writer has never let such a thing as consistency or accuracy get in the way of a plot.

So instead we see Spider-Man, who has never been demonstrated as thinking at vastly superhuman speeds until then, managing to form several coherent sentences, move the Hulk (If he had hit with escape velocity speed and force, and this story followed the laws of physics as closely as you think, the Hulk would have been launched away from the planet anyway. He only weighs a bit over 1000 pounds), and point at the spheres going away into the sky.

All in all, this seems very unreliable to me.

 

[A6colute]

I'm agree with Antvasima.

This is Marvel...

Where cops >>> Thanos.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you.

Although the cops arresting Thanos was in an all-ages out-of-continuity story.

 

[ImagoDesattrolante]

I don't think this should be ignored...

 

[Antvasima]

Were there other relevant Spider-Man feats than the two that I mentioned?

 

[ChaosTheory123]

Well, the way I understand it, the spheres were connected to each other by an attraction force. We see Hulk punch one of them away while still holding on to the other. If the second, still stationary, sphere had instantly started to move at escape velocity, the Hulk would not have had the chance to react, he would simply have been instantly swept away along with it the moment of his punch.
However, this is an old Chris Claremont story, and that writer has never let such a thing as consistency or accuracy get in the way of a plot.

So instead we see Spider-Man, who has never been demonstrated as thinking at vastly superhuman speeds until then, managing to form several coherent sentences, move the Hulk (If he had hit with escape velocity speed and force, and this story followed the laws of physics as closely as you think, the Hulk would have been launched away from the planet anyway. He only weighs a bit over 1000 pounds), and point at the spheres going away into the sky.

All in all, this seems very unreliable to me.

This is kind of pitiful

All you need to do is call outlier, and you'd be on your happy way. Instead? You decide you also need to butcher high school physics (which, anywhere else, is a fairly widely acknowledged and acceptably used tentant of gauging feats in fictions because the concept itself is bare bones simple and major) and rationalize what you consider an outlier away.

Do you have any actual integrity here dude? :hmm

 

[SomebodyData]

This is kind of pitiful

All you need to do is call outlier, and you'd be on your happy way. Instead? You decide you also need to butcher high school physics (which, anywhere else, is a fairly widely acknowledged and acceptably used tentant of gauging feats in fictions because the concept itself is bare bones simple and major) and rationalize what you consider an outlier away.

Do you have any actual integrity here dude? :hmm

Chaos instead of attacking Ant, why don't you try bringing up more points. Such behavior isn't tolarated here.

 

[Antvasima]

No, I am usually a very honest person, who has tried to be unbiased even with franchises that I personally hate (whereas I like Spider-Man), and I am going by what was actually shown within the story, and regular Plot Induced Stupidity conventions that I have had experience with.

Meaning: I am not trying to manipulate, and no offense is intended towards your calculation ability. I just find the instances within the comics themselves highly suspicious.

Still, if you keep up this behaviour, I will have no other choice but to block you. I have tried to be polite, but it sets a bad precedent if people who have not been extremely useful to the site can treat the admins any way that they want.

 

[ChaosTheory123]

This is kind of pitiful

All you need to do is call outlier, and you'd be on your happy way. Instead? You decide you also need to butcher high school physics (which, anywhere else, is a fairly widely acknowledged and acceptably used tentant of gauging feats in fictions because the concept itself is bare bones simple and major) and rationalize what you consider an outlier away.

Do you have any actual integrity here dude? :hmm

Chaos instead of attacking Ant, why don't you try bringing up more points. Such behavior isn't tolarated here.

Why do I need to attack a hollow argument?

He's telling me the physics are wrong when, while probably not executed perfectly (I am lazy, I'm sure I generalized it a bunch), actually reflect what's going on. His grounds for his claims rely on wording I can just as easily use to support something we can observe occurring in our own backyard.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, again, I mean no offense. I simply find the story conveniences of these two instances incoherent and illogical.

 

[ChaosTheory123]

No, I am usually a very honest person, who has tried to be unbiased even with franchises that I personally hate (whereas I like Spider-Man), and I am going by what was actually shown within the story, and regular Plot Induced Stupidity conventions that I have had experience with.
Meaning: I am not trying to manipulate, and no offense is intended towards your calculation ability. I just find the instances within the comics themselves highly suspicious.

Still, if you keep up this behaviour, I will have no other choice but to block you. I have tried to be polite, but it sets a bad precedent if people who have not been extremely useful to the site can treat the admins any way that they want.

I'm just baffled as to why you feel the need to explain away and ignore basic physics for something you already consider to be an outlier. If you think it's an outlier, I'm all game, but what you're doing in excess is disingenuous dude. If you don't like the feat, you don't use the feat.

Telling me its wrong because the physics doesn't work kind of irks me though

Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're directing your points towards? If so? Fair enough. That's my bad

That sounds... worryingly draconian over a hobby this silly. If you can in good conscience ban me because I'm more aggressive than you're used to, that's your prerogative.

 

[Antvasima]

We have rules about insulting people especially admins. If you want to stay in this wiki, and have not made yourself indispensable, then you need to behave and be polite. We won't get anywhere othervise.

Everything is clearly spelled out in the front page. And we need these rules for the site not to start to disintegrate into ill-mannered chaos.

Also, you read me completely wrong in that you think that I try to manipulate. I genuinely perceive these feats this way, largely because I have read so extremely many Marvel and DC books, and have learned how their conveniences and inconsistencies work at this point. Mind you, I am tired and unfocused these days, but nevertheless.

 

[ChaosTheory123]

Well, again, I mean no offense. I simply find the story conveniences of these two instances incoherent and illogical.

Ok, but why's it have to be anything more than an outlier then? Fiction doesn't fall into a neat little box. Feats perfectly consistent with physics can still be nonsensical feats in a story based contex.

I'm admittedly just a stickler for semantics. I don't care about the conclusions so much as how they're reached *shrugs*

 

[Antvasima]

Among other things, because I don't find it logical that Hulk can punch away the globe without the other one instantly sweeping him away, or that Spider-Man can supposedly punch him at beyond escape velocity without sending him into space anyway. Or that he gets the time to stare and point when the second globe goes off into space while the Hulk looks on. All of it in combination makes this story unreliable to me. I have experience with Claremont's writing, and it is filled to the brim with these types of inconsistencies.

Similarly, just putting out an arm and letting the speedster, who for some reason is mindlessly, and very conveniently, going around in circles, run into it, is another trope that I have seen several times from characters that should technically be completely outmatched. It is a common plot convenience that doesn't make any sense, and is one of the many tricks that writers use to "cheat" (as I saw one writer put it in regards to writing the Flash in an old Wizard magazine article) with speedsters, to give them any type of challenge whatsoever.