UT Revisions, Upgrades, and Downgrades

[ArbitraryNumbers]

I have a few issues with the Undertale verse. First of all, we have profiles for too many characters we don't need, some examples being the Annoying Dog or the Bird that carries you over a disproportionately small gap. I love both of these characters, but... I don't think they really need to be on here. Plus most of the verse is comprised of grind fodder. Why don't other RPGs get this kind of treatment on this wiki? Why don't they get individual profiles for each and every single one of them?

As for the bird, I believe it's just far too obscure. It doesn't do much other than what its name implies; it doesn't fight comparably to anything, or even fight at all for that matter, so we cannot even scale it to the Froggits; because at least they're shown fighting. Scaling is generally useful for putting characters at certain levels of power if they don't have any feats. Take Evil Ryu for example: he doesn't have any feats on his own, but he matched Akuma blow for blow in a fight, so we can logically assume that he's on that level of power. That doesn't work here, as the bird does not fight anything, so we cannot even compare it to the froggits.

As for the Annoying Dog, we don't really know much about it, other than that it created the UT verse by barking into a speech-to-text device. And if we take that to heart, then that means the entire UT verse would be inferior to a speech-to-text device, which they're clearly not. To me, the dog is just unquantifiable 4th wall nonsense incarnate. Why keep a character if we cannot measure anything he does?

If we're not going to remove the dog, then we should at least give the dog some stats. The reason he beat Scott Cawthon on this website was supposedly because he was superior to Chara, as Chara's influcence on the game can be removed via deleting files, while the dog cannot. If he's superior to a supposedly 2-B being, then why isn't he 2-B or higher?

This is probably quite a stretch, but since we accept Undertale and it's 4th-wall breaking nature (Gameplay mechanics are practically reality in UT), I'll just put it out there:

Since the dog created Undertale and posted it online, where it has no limit to the amount of times it could be downloaded, so technically infinite copies of undertale. And since each copy of Undertale is a multiverse, this should mean the dog created infinite multiverses, putting him in the higher-dimensional tier range. (Assuming that all of the technicalities can hold up, and that Undertale is indeed a multiverse, not a relatively large cluster of universes, which I'm about to cover)

The next issue is how Frisk is portrayed. He supposedly harmed Omega Flowey, who erased all of his saves and created several of them during the fight, but the problem with that is that we don't know the canonical amount of timelines frisk created. Even if we assume it's a rather large amount of timelines, I highly doubt it would be sufficient to make UT a multiverse, as it would have to be above 1000 to 10^500, according to the tiering system. Even though he is superior to Chara, who destroyed the game, taking the previous statement into mind, there isn't enough timelines to make Undertale a multiverse. So therefore, Chara isn't Multiversal, Flowey is not superior to a Multiversal being, and therefore Frisk would not be multiversal for being capable of mildly harming him. This should downgrade the three of them to 2-C or so, as well as anybody who scales to them.

Wall Level frisk isn't something I agree with, either. Frisk wasn't destroying a wall; to me, that seemed like a secret passage opening in front of him. It would be pretty bizarre if I knocked a wall down out of sheer strength, and left behind a perfectly round, door-shaped hole in its wake.

Let me know if I got anything wrong. I just thought I would share my thoughts and speculation (Although the theory about the dog creating multiverses isn't my own theory, I forgot who originally came up with it)

 

[Alakabamm]

...oh god not another one

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

^Yup. :/

 

[AidenBrooks999]

^ Is now a hobby.

 

[LoudCloud]

The wall level Frisk thing was due to the fall he took at the very begining of the game.

However, I agree the bird doesn't really need it's own profile (but I don't personaly mind too much).

As for the Omega Flower/Chara stuff I'm not an expert. You could have a point but either way I feel like their profiles are worded very strangely.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

Don't we have a rule about these threads... or did that not happen yet.?

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Don't we have a rule about these threads... or did that not happen yet.?

Not yet, apparently. :/

 

[Antvasima]

I have asked Azathoth to write a rule forbidding these topics.

The problem is that Wikia has not managed to fix the bug that makes it impossible to easily browse all of the Undertale threads (or for other verses with lots of discussions), so it is hard to find and link to all of the ones wherein the arguments have been debunked:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Topic:Undertale

 

[LoudCloud]

I have asked Azathoth to write a rule forbidding these topics.
The problem is that Wikia has not managed to fix the bug that makes it impossible to easily browse all of the Undertale threads (or for other verses with lots of discussions), so it is hard to find and link to all of the ones wherein the arguments have been debunked:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Topic:Undertale

Maybe there should be an entire pages dedicated to commonly debunked arguments. That way all you need to do is point towards that page when someone questions it (unless they have valid criticism). I myself am a bit confused about the Undertale tiers and a page dedicated to explaining Asriel, Chara and Flowey's tiers would help everyone.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

Maybe there should be an entire pages dedicated to commonly debunked arguments. That way all you need to do is point towards that page when someone questions it (unless they have valid criticism). I myself am a bit confused about the Undertale tiers and a page dedicated to explaining Asriel, Chara and Flowey's tiers would help everyone.

I'm with LoudCloud on this one; I would also like a better explanation regarding the tiers of the 2-A's of Undertale.

My apologies for the mostly redundant thread.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

To clear up the Chara thing, Chara is far more likely 2-B than 2-C because, as we learn from Sans, there are indeed multiple timelines (Omega Flowey also demonstrates this to be true), meaning it's very likely that while some Determination abilities "rewind" timelines, others simply create new ones. Sans did mention timelines sporadically stopping and starting due to the player's actions, after all. Flowey messed around with the world a significant amount more than the player did, having reset at the very least hundreds of times according to his dialogue when talking to Chara. Chara ended the world, which in this case seems to refer to the entire game reality itself, as when the game is booted back up, there is nothing. Not even the menu which exists outside of the regular timelines and only the player can see. No more timelines can be created or accessed. It is simply a black void.

The Annoying Dog is the verse's supreme being, and though he is used in-game solely for laughs, there is no reason for him not to be here. At the very least, he is at least one degree of infinity superior to Asriel, who is essentially fictional compared to him. I'm also not just saying he's the supreme being due to being the author avatar, either. The game makes it very clear. He created Undertale's reality. Attempting to dig into the code and remove things relating to the dog from the game literally results in a message telling you he cannot be removed. If something is done which causes the game to no longer function properly, opening it will just result in the dog itself alone in a black void.

 

[Verivici]

snip

Isn't it a bit of an NLF to assume that Chara's reference to the "world" ment the whole multiverse? It could refer to just 1 timeline.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Isn't it a bit of an NLF to assume that Chara's reference to the "world" ment the whole multiverse? It could refer to just 1 timeline.

Timelines are explicitly referred to as timelines within the game, and as I said before, if only one was destroyed, the player could have simply made a new one and wouldn't have been forced to sell their SOUL. There is literally nothing after the game boots back up.

 

[Verivici]

Point.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Tbh, I always explained O. Flowey's timeline creation is one timeline per soul. That falls apart entirely if he reset more than 6-7 timelines though. Though, Azzy, how many universes are in the UT verse? And the fact that the player was forced to sell its SOUL mean that Chara is just stronger and his influence just trumps the Player's so I (as the player) can't reset?

And while it hasn't been brought up yet, I always had a slight problem with the 216 zeroes point, as it implies that every 1 hp is a universe, and Froggit is multi-universal.

I have no problem with Asriel's rating. He's infinitely stronger than everyone else.

 

[Antvasima]

@LoudCloud We have the Discussion Rules page, which is supposed to serve this function. Ideally, the staff should add debunked major discussion topics to it, while linking to the threads wherein they have been debunked.

However, Wikia is buggy, so it has turned very hard to find old forum threads. For example, try clicking the numbers "2" and onwards at the bottom of this page. You will regrettably remain at page 1.

Hence, it should preferably be done immediately after a major topic, in order to avoid future repetition.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

snip

There is no exact number of timelines. We just know that there's more than one, as Sans mentions multiple timelines, and Omega Flowey shows that more than one can indeed exist simultaneously. If the player's actions were creating multiple timelines, presumably Flowey would have created a great deal more, as he has not only been using the power for significantly longer, but he also reset so many times he can no longer count them.

I don't think Chara would be able to stop the player, like that. The reason Asriel could stop Frisk from reaching or creating any SAVEs was because they were equal in Determination. Chara's Determination is the player's Determination. Even ignoring that, when Frisk attempted to reach their SAVE or create new ones against Asriel, it was explicitly noted that they were unable to do so. With Chara, there is simply nothing the player can do, at all. There is just...nothingness.

 

[LoudCloud]

@LoudCloud We have the Discussion Rules page, which is supposed to serve this function. Ideally, the staff should add debunked major discussion topics to it, while linking to the threads wherein they have been debunked.
However, Wikia is buggy, so it has turned very hard to find old forum threads. For example, try clicking the numbers "2" and onwards at the bottom of this page. You will regrettably remain at page 1.

Hence, it should preferably be done immediately after a major topic, in order to avoid future repetition.

I know. I just wished those debunked arguments were put neatly into their own page. The Discussion Rules page can still be pretty vague or offer threads that require long extensive reading to understand. It would be a lot easier if there was a page that just got straight to the point on why it is debunked rather than simply "this has been discussed before" or "check this 234 page thread first".

On another note: Man, I feel sorry for you. Running a wiki like this must be exhausting. Suprised you have't gone mad yet. Thanks for being around.

 

[Antvasima]

Yeah. It is exhausting. There are too many constant problems and topics, and wikia's staff isn't able to fix most of the bugs that I tell them about.

On top of that, some people on other sites keep blaming me and the VsBattles staff for every inaccurate statistic on the site, rather than thank us for ensuring that the site isn't in far worse condition than it is.

Anyway, it isn't realistic to demand that the staff should write summaries of every debunked topic out there, but it would be good if they would put it into system to briefly mention them in the discussion rules page, and link to the relevant threads. That will have to do, I think.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Hey, Ant. I'll take the time to write a page about lists of down/upgrades that have been debunked. From UT to DB to Sonic. If you could just have people send me a list, it'll be easier, but I'll make it my mission to do it.

 

[Antvasima]

That's just it. There is no list. The discussion rules page is a work in progress that has to be added to gradually, on a case by case basis.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm aware there's no list. That's why I was planning to make it for you. Think of it like your Powerscaling Rules for Marvel and DC. You can direct people to the page, and it'll say "these topics are set in stone and will not be changed" and list for example, Chara is 2-B due to _______. I might not be understanding your point though and will drop it if need be.

 

[Antvasima]

I mean that you would have to check through every content revision thread in the wiki to make a truly comprehensive list.

What we, more realistically, can do, is to write new brief rules after long discussion threads debunking a certain topic, if we wish to avoid repeating them in the future.

 

[Verivici]

Also, I think there has been a misunderstanding of the concept of LOVE/LV.

In UT, LOVE/LV isn't the same as levels in other RPG games. Rather, it represents one's willingness to kill others, and to use their full power to do so. The reason it increases when you kill people is because doing so gradually causes you to become distant from your victims, allowing you to kill them without any moral/empathic qualms. It is not a measure of power in the Dragon Ball power level sense. Therefore, an enemy giving more LV than another does not mean that they are neccecarily stronger than that opponent. It is unclear what Flowey's "LV 9999" refers to, but it could simply refer to that he has absolutely not even a tiny tiny fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of empathy for his enemies, which is fitting considering he lacks a SOUL and cannot bond with any other living being or object.

Also, it isn't spelled "lvl" but "LV" which is short for LOVE, which is short for Level of Violence.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I mean that you would have to check through every content revision thread in the wiki to make a truly comprehensive list.

What we, more realistically, can do, is to write new brief rules after long discussion threads debunking a certain topic, if we wish to avoid repeating them in the future.

Both ideas work for me. I have the free time for the former, and the latter I can still help too.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I was thinking more on the lines of topics that have been discussed to death, like this one with Chara, or Cell's SS rating, or Magolor's universal.

 

[Alakabamm]

I mean that you would have to check through every content revision thread in the wiki to make a truly comprehensive list.

What we, more realistically, can do, is to write new brief rules after long discussion threads debunking a certain topic, if we wish to avoid repeating them in the future.

We should probably make something like into a process to save some time, Ant.

Maybe we should make a page for rule requests based on threads past made past this point (or dug up by people willing to go through the archive) and post it somewhere visible?

 

[Antvasima]

@Alakabamm That sounds like a decent idea, although I am far too exhausted and overworked to implement it myself.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

things

Well yeah, but stills obvious that Omega Flowey is superior to Chara

Aswell, even if "LV" means LOVE, stills a reference to the power of the character, OF is portayed to be basically the second strongest (behind Asriel)

 

[Alakabamm]

@Alakabamm That sounds like a decent idea, although I am far too exhausted and overworked to implement it myself.

I can manage it if necessary. The issue would just be informing people that it exists so that it doesn't get abandoned halfway through. I know that we can't sticky threads on wikia without source editing the menu itself, so do you know of any other methods to let people know that rules can be made from these things?

 

[Antvasima]

You might be able to stick a "See also" link to the page at the bottom of the discussion rules page.

 

[Verivici]

things

Well yeah, but stills obvious that Omega Flowey is superior to Chara
Aswell, even if "LV" means LOVE, stills a reference to the power of the character, OF is portayed to be basically the second strongest (behind Asriel)

My argument wasn't based on "LV meaning LOVE", what are you talking about?

And I am very skeptical that a statement reffering to an extremely extremely weakened version of Chara who had just got past the point of being a glass cannon whose strongest attack was capable of oneshotting Toriel can be used to scale LV20 Chara

And I don't think "He's got 6 souls" holds water

After all, Frisk was able to oppose Asriel (albeit not very much) despite only having 1 soul while he had 7 (or 6 and a ton of monster souls that added up to 1 composite human soul)

If Asriel really IS stronger than Chara

Then I'm pretty sure his weakened "playing around" form shouldn't be considered stronger than them or Omega Flowey, considering that its strongest attack could affect a whopping 1 timeline rather than the multiverse Chara can manipulate