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Warhammer 40k Primarch Tiers

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Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot

Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot

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Oh boy, Azzy's doing another Warhammer thread! Truly this is uncharted territory for the wiki and something which totally hasn't been done before!

Anyway, this basically stemmed from some thoughts and discussions I had with other users about the current tiers of 40k's Primarchs. Characters such as Angro, Magnus the Red, etc. The reason for this is that the Primarchs are currently scaled to Greater Daemons, who on average, are moon level entities. However, in every instance in which a Primarch fought against a Greater Daemon in the lore, they were some of the most powerful entities the Chaos Gods had to offer, not just no-name Greater Daemons. The reason this scaling seems so odd to me is...well, a lot of reasons.

Lets start off with something like this. The God Emperor of Mankind is a character who is at least Solar System level (via stuff such as being able to nuke entire star sectors, being able to fire blasts of psychic energy far more powerful than a supernova while he was crippled and dying, etc), and likely Multi-Solar System level at his best (likely defeated a large shard of the Void Dragon, a C'tan stronger than Aza'gorod the Nightbringer, whose shards are capable of ripping open black holes which swallow up multiple star systems, at once. He also might have been responsible for the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath, which was a Warp storm spanning lightyears which obliterated multiple solar systems).

The strongest Primarch, Horus, turned to Chaos and fought against the Emperor, bringing him to near death. Yes, the Emperor was not fighting back due to not wanting to harm his favored son, but he was still on the defensive and obviously trying to not die. Regardless of this, Horus still did a pretty huge amount of damage to him.

Immediately before this confrontation, Horus did battle against Sanguinius. While Sanguinius was not able to deal any lasting damage to Horus, he did hold his ground against the traitor Primarch for a notable period of time, even managing to leave a gash in Horus' armor (which is more than can be said for almost anything else which confronted Chaos-boosted Horus).

Horus was indeed the strongest Primarch, especially after receiving the boons of Chaos, but all Primarchs were still depicted as being relatively equal (as in, no Primarch was dozens of times more powerful than another).

To beat down the Emperor, even if Big E was only on the defensive, Horus would at least need to be solar system level.

Does it not stand to reason that, by extension, Sanguinius (and all other Primarchs) would need to be much, much, MUCH higher than Moon level to last even a femtosecond against Horus in combat?

I would like to know what thoughts people have on this, because to me, 5-C Sanguinius being able to actually cut through the armor of 4-B Horus just seems...wrong.

Note: Potential upgrades would scale to:

  • the Primarchs.
  • the rare entities depicted as being on-par with the Primarchs.
That's pretty much it.
 
The Primarchs should be around 4-B at least. There is a huge gap (trillions) between 4-B and 4-A, and if the Emperor is leaning towards 4-A in his prime, I don't believe that the Primarchs were billions to trillions of times weaker than the Emperor. Your example of Sanguinius even standing a chance against Horus (who could be sitting at 4-A) would mean that the Primarchs themselves weren't that much weaker in order to justify a tier downgrade. Even if they were thousands of times weaker, they should still be at a solid 4-B due to the power gap between 4-B and 4-A.

Horus definitely has the potential to be 4-A, especially if the Emperor is leaning on the high end of 4-A. Horus completely surpasses Abaddon with magic (who is sitting around 4-B), and did major damage towards the Emperor. The Emperor was holding back against Horus, but I don't believe that Horus is that much weaker than the Emperor to give him a major downgrade in tiering.

To sum this up:

Emperor = 4-A (in prime)

Horus = 4-B, possibly 4-A

Primarchs = 4-B

Other Entities = 4-B

There is approximately 5.61e20 times in power difference between the lowest end of 4-B, and the highest end of 4-A. If the Emperor falls in the higher end of 4-A, the Primarchs would at least have to be Solar System level.
 
while i supported the speed upgrade and the warp entities upgrade i have to heavily object to this one

we have several showings of primarchs fighting each other and it usually was described with the earth crumbling, mountains shattering (and at some point even like "little children" -> johnson vs kurze lol)

a force greater than a supernova is also not solar system but star level, when we go by our real life sun which would result in 1.2 foe

the storm of the emperor as well cant be scaled to his physical form since it happened post-heresy, meaning its completely irrelevant here in terms of powerscaling
 
A supernova releases 10^44 Joules. This easily puts the Emperor at Large Star level, and he did this feat while dying. The Emperor facing the Nightbringer (who is in 4-A), and beating it a fight should automatically place him at 4-A due to powerscaling.

We have DBZ characters fighting and mountains and islands were shattered. We still place these characters much higher than Moon level. The Emperor punching the Void Dragon to Mars should have completely obliterated Mars due to how fast the dragon moved, but Mars wasn't smashed to pieces. Basically, you are asking the same question to why the Earth isn't obliterated every time Goku and Vegeta fire a ki blast.

WH40 is probably beyond the laws of physics at this point due to the sheer amount of hax and ridiculous feats that these characters perform.
 
large star goes up to 22.4 foe whereas a supernova of our current sun is just 1.2 foe - just as general information

you can not compare being like the emperor and the void dragon with mere primarchs. they would be eaten alive from every entity on that level. we do not discuss the emperors tier but the primarchs tier, and they are so much below him that you cant make any justification as to how a void dragon and emperor fight should be scaled to them

the only thing which "might" be of use is sanguinus damaging horus armor, but that might as well be PIS
 
@RavenSupreme

This isn't really even suggesting every Primarch should be exactly 4-B. Just that they should be above basic Greater Daemon level. Mainly due to scaling more than any sort os showings. As I said, Sanguinius would need to be far above 5-C to last more than a second against Horus, as it's not like the Warmaster has, to my knowledge, ever been described as instantly turning him into fodder during the battle.

The Storm of the Emperor's fury was (if it was done by him) post-Golden Throne Emperor, but that was more of a side not after the Void Dragon thing, especially when weaker C'tan shards (i.e. Nightbringer) are supposedly capable of that level of damage.

Keep in mind not only the massive difference in tier 4, along with the difference between AP and area of effect (which most Primarch's don't have on a very large scale, except like...Magnus, but that's because psychic powers). Again, not arguing the Primarchs should all be placed at exactly 4-B, but they could all be a hundred million times weaker than the Emperor and still fall into the 4-B category.
 
ah alright. i was reading it like this is a demanded upgrade from 5c to 4b,

things would be more clear if we actually get some portraial from the primarchs doing more than 5c stuff. i am alright with an added "likely far higher" but abusing powerscaling from the emperor and ctan is nothing i support since they are just leagues beyond any primarch.

btw. i am also hundreds of million times weaker than the emperor, doesnt make me 4b eiter. the energy difference between the seizmic and the cosmic tier is just too great to argue like that

HOWEVER there is still the thalon of horus which depicts the clash between horus and the emperor as following:

"Bolts of force flashed back and forth as the demi-gods clashed, balancing the fate of the galaxy on every blow. Runesword and lightning claw rang against each other with a sound like thunder. Energies potent enough to level planets were unleashed. The chamber was filled with fire and brimstone and the Vengeful Spirit shook from prow to stern."

which would give the primarchs a chance for an upgrade if we can scale it to sanguinus - ofc. only until we get the new official canon
 
Really something like "At least 5-C/5-B, likely far higher" is appropriate. I'm fairly certain all Primarchs can scale to Sanguinius. He was depicted as like...3rd most powerful physically (after Horus and Angron), but it's not like he could one-shot all of his brothers.
 
i will open the thread for the quotes now, seeing as the 40k threads seem to persist.

until we have the new fluff i would state: "at least 5c / probably 5b (sanguinus managed to damage horus armor whose clashes with the emperor had enough energy to level planets[link to thread]) probably higher
 
"At least 5-C/5-B, likely far higher" seems good to me, for the reasons stated above.
 
Alright. That sounds good. We should probably wait for a couple more opinions before making any changes, first.
 
The current plan of action "At least 5-C/5-B, likely far higher" seems acceptable to me.
 
I am still standing on my points. There is way too much of a gap between 5-B and 4-A to justify Horus vs the Emperor as well as Horus vs Sanguinus.

"Energies potent enough to level planets were unleashed"

Something like this would easily be considered Star level or higher if planets were smashed as a side effect because of a duel.

However, the "far higher" statement is okay as well. I just think that there is way too much of a gap in power to skip 4 tiers.
 
I agree with Promestein and ThePerpetual.
 
Mmm... i disagree with all of the Primarchs being depicted as the same level, but that's better than the huge inconsistencies between them.

So i support the upgrade, regardless of where it lands everyone.

Also, the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath is his design, as stated in The Sisters of Battle Codex, however, with them being the most zealous of his worshippers, this does need to be taken with a grain of salt.
 
I figured that before any changes are made, this might be important. This is a couple of Daemons of Tzeentch messing with an entire star system by reality warping a couple of giant faces onto the suns (which are big enough for the entire system to see), driving everyone insane. However, they then start arguing, and eventually make the suns explode.

"Daemonic servants of Tzeentch create Warp rifts inside each of the twin suns of Haark. Soon, the leering faces upon the stars drive the entire population of the system insane, but the Daemons' incessant bickering triggers a duel-nova event. With the fate of the system now measured in hours, the Black Consuls Chapter send in Strike Force Ultra Varnor to recover sacred relics from the time of their founding. Captain Varnor and his brothers brave both Daemons and madmen in the burning cities of Haark to collect the relics, narrowly escaping into the void only moments before the stars die spectacularly."

Now the reason this is important is because Sanguinius fought against a Daemon named Ka'bandha, who was a bloodthirster of Khorne. Greater Daemons such as bloodthirsters are among the strongest servants of each god, and since Khorne is the strongest god, Bloodthirsters are almost always portrayed as the most powerful type of Greater Daemons. Ka'bandha is, by far, one of the strongest Bloodthirsters to ever live. Sanguinius managed to defeat him.

These Daemons of Tzeentch didn't even get names, and possibly weren't even Lords of Change, who are the Greater Daemons of Tzeentch. I feel this may be another thing which would put characters at Primarch levels at higher than just 5-B, but I would like some other opinions.
 
"Soon, the leering faces upon the stars drive the entire population of the system insane, but the Daemons' incessant bickering triggers a duel-nova event. With the fate of the system now measured in hours."

I am not really sure how to even respond to this. It seems that when the lesser Daemons started arguing, the suns started to turn into supernovas and threaten to explode. This is AFTER they turned the suns (which are probably bigger than ours considering the faces were visible throughout the entire solar system). This feat alone places the lesser Daemons at least Large Star level considering they literally warped the sun without even trying.

Now these greater Daemons are supposed to be much, much stronger, like you said. Considering that the lesser Daemons made giant suns explode by playing around, the greater Daemons would have to at least be Solar System level; I am not sure how many times the greater Daemons are stronger than the lesser Daemons, but going by what Azzy said, the power gap would be enormous, more than enough to justify a tier upgrade.

With regards to the Primarchs, if Sanguinius is able to defeat Ka'bandha, one of the strongest servants off Khorne. There is absolutely no question that the Primarchs >>> lesser Daemons by an enormous amount, as greater Daemons >>> lesser Daemons. This would also mean that the Primarchs in fact, are comparable to the greater Daemons of the Chaos Gods.

At this point, placing the Primarchs at 5-B at this point does not do them even a shred of justice. For the reasons Azzy and I stated above, I believe that the Primarchs should be way, way higher than they are standing at right now due to the fact that the Primarchs = greater Daemons, who in themselves, are way above those who can literally make stars explode as a joke.
 
I'm not really sure what happened (maybe a glitch), but I posted a new reply above.

Anyways, it's about time that this series stopped being downplayed here, especially with regards to your above statement.
 
So wait, the daemons cause supernovas just by arguing? How many of them did this take? How much stronger are the greater Daemons than the lesser Daemons? Are we sure that it was lesser daemons that caused this sun to go nova? Help me out here.
 
ThePerpetual said:
So wait, the daemons cause supernovas just by arguing? How many of them did this take? How much stronger are the greater Daemons than the lesser Daemons? Are we sure that it was lesser daemons that caused this sun to go nova? Help me out here.
Click to expand...
The Daemons of Tzeentch were warping faces onto the suns in order to freak everyone in the star system out. However, when the daemons started arguing (as they tend to do), it made the suns go supernova due to constantly trying to change things and different...erm..."creative visions".

Unknown how many daemons there were. Could have been only a few, could have been a moderate sized party, could have been a lot.

We don't know there were no Greater Daemons involved. However, it's highly possible there weren't, as Greater Daemons are almost always referred to as "Greater Daemons" or "[insert said type of Greater Daemon here]", because they're a pretty big deal when they manifest in realspace. If this was done by nothing but Greater Daemons or even a large enough group of Greater Daemons, that almost certainly would have been noteworthy.

Daemons below Greater Daemons vary heavily in levels of power. Something like a Bloodletter (Lesser Daemons of Khorne) are around High 8-C (physically on par with and able to tear up basic Space Marines), compared to a Bloodthirster (Greater Daemons of Khorne), who are at the very least 5-C (though they can be much, much stronger with age).
 
Hmmm. Well, that's sort of an unknown we can't really assume an arbitrary value on, then, and there's no sort of implied value to go off of either. That said, given that it's also unlikely that there were so many daemons that each only contributed one Planet level power source to this occurence, or at least that's the impression I'm getting, "At least" and "likely far higher" are again most definitely warranted.
 
Yes, this is more just another showing to show that Primarchs being of this level isn't too far fetched. They're treated as being some of the most powerful warriors in the lore, and have some decent showings to back that up.

Obviously we don't want to scale from absurd stuff like Ultramarines 2nd Company Captain Cato Sicarius defeating a Transcendent C'tan Shard (despite said Shards being equal to or greater in power than the Goddamn Emperor), but it should simply be noted that Primarchs should be far stronger than the vast majority of Greater Daemons and such, and Sanguinius being able to fight against Horus (who beat the Emperor to near death) for a while should show that.
 
I think that Azathoth seems to make sense.
 
Alright, so because of feats like this and Horus needing to be of a certain level to harm the Emperor (let alone bring him to near death), would anyone be opposed to being slightly more precise with the ratings? Like...instead of "At least 5-C/5-B, likely far higher" something like "At least 5-C/5-B, likely 4-C/4-B" with the reasoning given for each set of stats?
 
That seems fair, yeah. So. I agree with that.
 
That seems reasonable.
 
Alright. Just in case there are any other opinions, I will wait like half an hour or so before making any changes, just in case there are any qualms or changes, before then.
 
Since it has now been two hours (just wanted to be sure and leave room for possible discussion), I have adjusted the tiers of the Primarchs and characters on par with them to "At least 5-B, likely up to 4-B". The "At least" and "up to" I feel help to show that their exact level of powers are difficult to 100% determine, as well as showing both the low and higher ends. Does this look acceptable to everyone?
 
That is probably fine.
 
what?

no. no. no. no

we have ONE statement from ONE source depicting the demons able to destroy "stars" without further intel to it

we have multiple other sources where nothing like this is indicated

---

what has happened to the thing everyone agreed upon? one statement which is not further explained and suddenly the primarchs explode to solar system level, disregarding all the other sources?

5c to probably 5b is what we settled on - how can a statement about some "stars" (how big? dward star? large star? sun-sized?" suddenly make it up to be "likely solar system" level???

also for kabhanda - he got later bested multiple times at other instances and not from the primarch

i am sorry but this is heavily out of context and order. the changes are not justified at all.

---

the new quote should have been used to soldify the at least 5b tier and not escalate solar-system level tier jumps

please redo them, until we have discussed that further
 
Hmm. What do you think Azathoth?
 
The stars quote was simply to help show that the higher ends are not incredibly far fetched. It is not meant to be in the same league as Sanguinius tangling with Horus. It wasn't meant for much more to solidify the "at least 5-B".

Also, something which I made note of on the profile is that it is not "At least 5-B, likely 4-B". It is "At least 5-B, likely up to 4-B". 4-B is meant to be the highest possible end, and the Primarchs, depending on portrayal and time period of the story, can really fit anywhere in between that. 4-B is meant to be the highest end, not 100% what they land at.

Also, as I said before, keep in mind that 4-B is an incredibly wide category. If we put the Emperor at 4-B, the Primarchs could be a hundred thousand times weaker (and they definitely are a LOT weaker) and still be within 4-B. However, this is still only listed as the maximum possibility, not the absolutely certain level which they land at. This is why I mentioned earlier that if Horus was able to cripple the Emperor, even if he was only on the defensive, Sanguinius would have to be well above where he currently was to even last for a second against a semi-serious Horus.

Remember that "At least 5-B, likely far higher" and "At least 5-B, likely up to 4-B" (both of which were deemed fair) have essentially the exact same meaning. However, people tend to ignore the higher ends if only the listed tier catches their eye, and in this case, it is simply acknowledging the very real possibility to that level of power with the reasoning being the exact same instances which would be used for the "likely far higher".
 
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