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So I was wondering what exactly can put down Frisk and Chara for good, ignoring the blatant higher-dimensional beings and having more determination than them, what can beat saving and loading?
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What can beat "determination"
- Thread starter Blahblah9755
- Start date
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Being able to delete concept on a high enough level can remove Determination from existence. Having a big enough control over time can mess with the save and load ability, but not the immortality and regen some characters possess.
Also Chara doesn't run solely on Determination. Being conceptual help.
Also Chara doesn't run solely on Determination. Being conceptual help.
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emofication
Possibly mind or soul maipulation?
Possibly mind or soul maipulation?
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I see thanks
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Screwing with their existence could?
Because I think a really, really high-level reality warper could beat them if they "delete them out of existence" or remove the concept of determination. That's a sure way to beat them.
Because I think a really, really high-level reality warper could beat them if they "delete them out of existence" or remove the concept of determination. That's a sure way to beat them.
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Determination<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<detemmienation
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@SomebodyStupid
Soul manipulation overwriting Determination on someone like Frisk? Not unless you're tier 1-C or higher. There's a reason the Asriel fight went the way it did.
@697086
Definitely. You just need to be high enough level (i.e. significantly higher than Asriel, who couldn't erase Frisk).
@YubbelSeraphim
100% accurate.
Soul manipulation overwriting Determination on someone like Frisk? Not unless you're tier 1-C or higher. There's a reason the Asriel fight went the way it did.
@697086
Definitely. You just need to be high enough level (i.e. significantly higher than Asriel, who couldn't erase Frisk).
@YubbelSeraphim
100% accurate.
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although it is of note that ambushes and suprise attacks are extra effective against determination users since they need to be determined to fight for their defences to go up. But as long as they possess higher tiered time manipulation then who ever is attacking them they can just load
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Phantasys said:
what are those from?
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Not inherently. Your average CHIM user is way below someone like Frisk, though yes, some are way above.Phantasys said:
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Elder Scrolls.Squid peanut said:
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ah, well if they display time manipulation of a higher tier then that of the determined character then yesAzathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
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This is probably NLF, but we've yet to see what CHIMsters can really do without becoming an amaranth. From what I understand you don't gain anything in strength from sacrificing your personality to become another dreamer (from what we see Anu and Padomay are definitely above the 1-C tier) who would undoubtedly dominate the Undertale verse.Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
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Average CHIM users are nowhere near Anu and Padomay levels, though. Those two are some of Elder Scrolls' absolute top tiers, and I'm fairly certain most CHIM users don't approach Akatosh levels.
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Actually we've seen only two so far...Talos who's assumed to be on the same level as Lorkhan was...and Vivec who roflstomped Azura with such ease that it's clear 2-B is nowhere near his full power. We've never seen a CHIM user ever even approach their limits and lore states that going from CHIM to amaranth results in only losing their identity, nothing states that they get a whole lot stronger in doing so.
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Roflstomping a 2-B could still be well within 2-B, though. One 2-B could be literally quintillions of times stronger than another and still be 2-B.
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High end reality warping. I don't know if someone with enough tech would be capable of exract their determination. And. Of course. Beating them so many times that they would simply lose their determination. Basically what Sans was trying to do.
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DontTalk came to a thread to make a joke.DontTalk said:
My day has been made.
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I would imagine that emotional manipulation 'might' work. Determining if a specific matchup would work or not would be next to impossible though.
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Lol, how about Homura who brings them despair? She's nigh-omnipresent and supposedly the definition for evil. She can rewrite the universe with ease, and is considered equal to Goddess Madoka who is considered at least multiversal if not multiversal+. She could make them forget that they ever had those abilities and rewrite reality so they face true despair.
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That is my point exactly... the emotional manipulation might reduce the determination, making further manipulations progressively more effective. But you can't really quantify that in the first place without some common point of comparison.Salavtore said:
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Doubt it would work on most of the higher level users. Asriel was literally beating Frisk out of existence (as in, every time Frisk was killed, they started to exist less and less and would eventually reach a point in which they had never existed, at all), and Frisk still remained determined enough to continue onwards. You'd likely need to be at least low end tier 1 to make something like that work, which Homura is not.Aurasuke said:
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Magic Trick Man can beat Determination. Determination is just an illusion he created.
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^Thebluedash said:
Only accurate answer, so far.
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I'm always accurate.Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
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If that happens it would just be an illusion of someone with enough determination to break the illusion.Salavtore said:
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given that determination is just defying how reality works to further your goals, someone being so determined that they make the illusion of determination real is what this sort of power's all about
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I still think there is an argument to be had with emotional manipulation, though. Especially if it is unexpected. You can't be determined to resist something if you didn't know it was coming, and by that point it's too late as the determination is gone.
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That is a paradoxical rebuttal. If a character isn't expecting an emotional change, that change directly should affect determination levels, which should make it harder, or even impossible to just resist it.
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