If Low 1-A is transcendent in relation to High 1-B and is just one layer below baseline 1-A, why is Low 1-A not just baseline 1-A? And how to determine if a character is Low 1-A and not baseline 1-A?
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Not really sure, but with the Tiering System changes, Low 1-A will represent the cap of mathematical axioms and whatnot, and 1-A will represent qualitative gaps, like Reality > Fiction.
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I... don’t really understand... I know absolutely nothing about axioms... And what do you mean by "1-A will represent qualitative gaps, like Reality > Fiction" ? In what context?
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@ActuallySpaceMan42 r>f transcendence will no longer be considered as just a higher layer, but as transcendent compared to any extensions of the universe seen as fictional within the verse?
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If I remember correctly, High 1-B won't change, but there will be a new tier, High 1-B+, which will be for Uncoutably Infinite Dimensions, or anything equivalent to that quantity-wise. Low 1-A will now be the tier that represents the cap of mathematics. Stuff like Inaccessible Cardinals, etc.
As for 1-A, it's now purely reserved for stuff that is qualitatively superior to Low 1-A and everything below it. When I say qualitatively, I mean it's no longer a matter of who has the bigger dimensions, the most universes, the highest aleph, whatever of realities.
1-A will now be for stuff like R>F Transcendence, where they see the universe as fictional. It automatically leaps beyond every other Tier below it, because even if the difference between higher and lower dimensions is vast, it doesn't change the fact that to those higher dimensions, lower dimensions still 'exist', and if a lower dimension disappears, all the higher dimensions would lose a dimension.
On the other hand, fiction has no effect on reality, unless reality let's fiction have an effect, and therefore it is automatically beyond Low 1-A for example, which represents the limits of mathematics.
As for 1-A, it's now purely reserved for stuff that is qualitatively superior to Low 1-A and everything below it. When I say qualitatively, I mean it's no longer a matter of who has the bigger dimensions, the most universes, the highest aleph, whatever of realities.
1-A will now be for stuff like R>F Transcendence, where they see the universe as fictional. It automatically leaps beyond every other Tier below it, because even if the difference between higher and lower dimensions is vast, it doesn't change the fact that to those higher dimensions, lower dimensions still 'exist', and if a lower dimension disappears, all the higher dimensions would lose a dimension.
On the other hand, fiction has no effect on reality, unless reality let's fiction have an effect, and therefore it is automatically beyond Low 1-A for example, which represents the limits of mathematics.
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But there will still be High 1-A and 0?
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Yes, High 1-A has been changed so that it's endless, just like Tier 0.
A verse with a hierarchy beyond Tier 1-A would still be a High 1-A. But if there was an even greater hierarchy of realms or whatever beyond that, it would just be further into High 1-A. Basically, when it comes to Cosmology size and stuff like that, everything will sit in High 1-A.
As for High 1-A+ and Tier 0, they're are now reserved for the 'Omnipotent' Monad Beings of their verse, who are beyond any type of qualitative, or quantity-based transcendence.
Basically, the difference between a Dimensional Transcendence, and R > F Transcendence is qualitative. And if there was a hierarchy of realms beyond a R > F Transcendence Hierarchy, it would be High 1-A. But in the end, all of these differences are qualitative. Tier 0 will now be for beings who are beyond qualitative differences entirely, meaning it's not something you transcend to or can transcend in general.
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But isn't omnipotence supposed to be a paradox? And it's impossible to create a truly all-powerfull character that can't be transcended...
In the end a fictional character will remain a fictional character, we can always create a character more powerful than a character supposed to be omnipotent or a monadic totality, even if it's contradictory that doesn't matter because it is fiction... I love metaphysical and meta-fictional power scaling but for me VS Battles takes this too seriously, we are talking about characters who can never really be omnipotent or a totality within the story...
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The new tier 0 doesn't work in "the accumulation" of something to get above a level or a state of existence. Tier 0 is the absence of qualities or differentiation. There is no "stronger" or "weaker" anymore. This is the purest, simplest, "state of being" something could be. I use adjectives and "state of being" to define it, but it is fundamentally beyond definition due to its intrinsic nature.
So yeah, you can't be "more tier 0" than a tier 0 now. That's like saying you can be more [ ] than [ ]. You can't. There is no differentiation to be made.
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That's true; you could technically make a being who transcends a monadic entity since it's fiction.
However, the Tiering System of the Vsbattle Wiki is fictional as well, and by that logic, it can technically tier characters however it wants, regardless of how powerful they are written. Tiering characters is applying a fictional categorization, to a fictional being, after all, and Ultima and a bunch of other staff decided it would be best to use a monadic entity as the cut-off point.
It's important to note, though, that this change is fairly new, and no one really knows how it's going to work out. If enough issues appear down the line, then it might be changed again to be more open and inclusive of other forms of 'Omnipotence'. When I say omnipotence, I'm obviously not talking about real omnipotence, but, you know, omnipotence in their setting.
Not really. Treating the new Tier 0 as the end all be all, is a moot point, because it still exists as a fictional idea, and as long as it is a fictional idea, it can be surpassed in fiction, even if that goes against the logic of the idea in the first place. As I said above, the new Tier 0 is where THIS wiki decided to put the cut-off point, but it's in no way the limit of what a fictional being can do.
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Tier 0 currently co-exist with Paradox yeah.
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I was talking purely here. I'm rather sure that if a fiction tries to say "yeah, that thing or this character transcend the monad" Ultima would be the first to assume it's just an antifeat for the monad and as such wouldn't be tier 0.
Everyone can create "something bigger or stronger" by merely doing word salad, that doesn't mean it would be logical.
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Ya, that's the point I was making. Whether or not a Monad is Tier 0 is something the staff decided, and something transcending a monad being an anti-feat for Tier 0 is another thing the staff decided. There are no hard-written rules for any of this, outside of the rules people made up. If a fictional character wants to transcend a monad, then they are free too, it's just when they are added to this wiki, they are also tied down by the rules of this wiki, and it will be counted as an anti-feat.
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Yeah, glad we agree.
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There is a big difference between countable infinity and uncountable infinity. High 1-B is the former and Low 1-A is the latter. Though our tiering system is being revised atm for 1-A and above. Our old requirements for 1-A and above are being revised to just Low 1-A at best though unsure how "+" signs are implemented if there is things like High 1-B+ and Low 1-A+. But the new baseline for 1-A is a single layer of Ontological superiority which even one is superior to meta-infinity amounts of spacio-temporal layers. Then there is 1-A+, High 1-A, and High 1-A+. Which based on what I heard would be countable infinity, uncountable infinity, and meta-infinity layers respectively.
We have not updated the pages or implemented any changes related thus far, but Ultima Reality's thread for new proposals was generally approved among higher up staff. But he may be busy with other things atm.
We have not updated the pages or implemented any changes related thus far, but Ultima Reality's thread for new proposals was generally approved among higher up staff. But he may be busy with other things atm.
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I don't really understand, it's a bit complex... Also I have a question, when will the system be updated? How many weeks or months from now?
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