What kind of Manipulation is This?

[YungManzi]

Right now Tomoki's charm is just listed as Mind Manipulation, but that alone may not be the full range of his powers. However, I'm not quite sure what to even list it as if I'm being honest.
I'll give some statements with regards to it.

“Yes ma’am, I am afraid so, she keeps yelling Tomoki-sama and is losing sanity quickly. I had knocked her out thus there is no danger, and was going to continue her treatment.” (Demon A) ~POV Demon Army

1) Those who are charmed lose their sanity. So probably Madness Manipulation Type 2, but this isn't all.

"When she silently takes his gaze, the enticing power that Tomoki was emitting increased in strength instantly. It was a strengthening that one wouldn’t be able to see its effect, but even so, Tomoe took it refreshingly. Lily probably noticed what Tomoki was trying to do, she watched over the situation.”

2) The influence of his charm becomes stronger when you look in his eyes. Not even sure what to consider this if not some kind of Damage Boost for hax (Although I don't think Damage boost works like that as currently constructed).

Now these next statements are the really confusing ones.
https://img.spoilerhat.com/img/?url=https://zjcdn.********.me/store/manga/16675/051.0/compressed/o003.jpg
3) "Charm is like a highly addictive drug." "Continue to use it on someone who resists it and their mind will break"
Again, type 2 Madness with Resistance Negation added on. However...

4) "and trying to undo it by force will cause the euphoria from charm to vanish."
Charm also causes Euphoria, so Empathic Manipulation? Not sure.

5) "And bring about self-loathing for their actions while charmed potentially destroying their Ego".
^Now this is the most interesting statement here. It's basically saying that even if you somehow gain resistance to charm, the psychological effects of being charmed at one point destroy your mind in a way that suffering from withdrawals of a drug will. We actually see two examples of this happening. One being Haruka Osakabe:

"After the Wings of the Saint freed her from Tomoki's control, she continued pretending to be under his charm out of sheer embarrassment and shame at having been controlled, only continuing the fight in order to be killed without suffering embarrassment."

The other being a character named Lime Latte. Who was charmed into offering his Katana to Tomoki, and after being purified of it became a suicidal emotional wreck.
https://img.spoilerhat.com/img/?url=https://zjcdn.********.me/store/manga/16675/065.0/compressed/t017.jpghttps://img.spoilerhat.com/img/?url=https://zjcdn.********.me/store/manga/16675/066.0/compressed/o000.jpg

6) So madness type 3 via indirect influence? Social Influencing resulting in suicidal thoughts? Madness type 1 via the drug statement? It's not a direct ability of the charm but an after-effect of having been charmed.

TLDR;

2) Is this Damage Boost?

4) Is this Empathic Manipulation?

6) Is this Type 3 Madness? Social Influencing? or Type 1 Madness?
Or do they just all fall under Mind Manipulation?

 

[YungManzi]

bump

 

[YungManzi]

Bump

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

1) Sure, guess it could be classified as that.
2) I think powers with that sort of mechanic (get stronger when doing x happen) are quite common so I wouldn't classify it as anything special, just put a note that the effects gets stronger when you look at his eyes.
3) Like the previous point I think is quite common abilities that overtime can bypass a resistance if they get applied long enough (to put an example with a verse I'm familiar, in Arifureta there was a dude called Shimuzu who could end mind controling a dragon after apply constinously for an entire day his dark magic), is like that the lack of potency is compensated by chip "damage" (to call it something) that if acumulated enough can result in the target getting affected. In the case of Tsuki Ga is also explained how the amount of mana in a hax determine the effectiveness of haxs against targets, with even an example metaphor that mentioned how because Makoto had an ocean of mana pool the poison (which in this context mean haxs like paralysis or such) from a single bucket would be unable to affect the massive body of the ocean, so considering that I would suppose that what they mean with the charm thing is that by pouring countinously "poison" from a bucket they can eventually contamine the entire mana pool of the target.
4) I mean, it's charm, from base it should be considered Empathic Manip instead of something else like full Mind Manip.
5) That just mean that they feel regret from what they did while charmed, like in Haruka case she straight up say that just continued to pretend to continue charmed because of the shame she felt from her previous actions (which makes sense considering the really horrible stuff she did while charmed), while Lime feel that he isn't worth to heal after betray his bond with Asora side by giving his katana.

 

[YungManzi]

5) That just mean that they feel regret from what they did while charmed, like in Haruka case she straight up say that just continued to pretend to continue charmed because of the shame she felt from her previous actions (which makes sense considering the really horrible stuff she did while charmed), while Lime feel that he isn't worth to heal after betray his bond with Asora side by giving his katana.

It's a side effect of charm though, and it's not just particular to Haruka and Lime, it apparently happened to some fodder too. The reason why it's incurable is because even getting rid of the status effect causes lasting mental damage.

So I think it can be listed as an ability, just not sure which.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

It's a side effect of charm though, and it's not just particular to Haruka and Lime, it apparently happened to some fodder too. The reason why it's incurable is because even getting rid of the status effect causes lasting mental damage.

So I think it can be listed as an ability, just not sure which.

The lasting damage is just literally regret from their past actions, the same feeling those that commit crimes while drugged or drunken feel after their intoxication pass, just that in these case they didn't just do some crimes but massive ones at that (Haruka betrayed everyone that she loved and essentially speaking almost destroyed her country, Lime betrayed his bond with Asora residents, etc).

 

[YungManzi]

Lime betrayed his bond with Asora residents

Lime's regret for his actions is literally just offering up his sword for a few seconds. A normal response to that, even under the influence, is not to fall into embarrassment, suicidal thoughts, and depression.

The charm was on Lime for all of like 2 minutes lol, he didn't even actually give up his sword. He just was asking Tomoe if he could give his sword to him.
If you think that's enough of a betrayal that his reaction is reasonable and he would have had that same reaction under the influence of any other drug.... I just disagree lol.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Lime's regret for his actions is literally just offering up his sword for a few seconds. A normal response to that, even under the influence, is not to fall into embarrassment, suicidal thoughts, and depression.

The charm was on Lime for all of like 2 minutes lol, he didn't even actually give up his sword. He just was asking Tomoe if he could give his sword to him.
If you think that's enough of a betrayal that his reaction is reasonable and he would have had that same reaction under the influence of any other drug.... I just disagree lol.

You miss the context of how they are like samurais (or in Lime case more correctly speaking ninja I guess) with all their codes and so, so under those believe the fact that he offered something as precious of that is quite grave, reason to why Tomoe and Shiki would had punished him if it wasn't for the fact that Tomoki left him half dead, and it was also so grave that he didn't thought he was worth to be healed after such betrayal to them.

In short, is not any superpower, just literal regret from their actions while intoxicated.

 

[YungManzi]

Hmm...

I don't agree, but I want to get more examples of this first to say for sure one way or the other.
Because I'm pretty sure it's stated these mental aftereffect's are why charm is essentially incurable.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I don't agree, but I want to get more examples of this first to say for sure one way or the other.
Because I'm pretty sure it's stated these mental aftereffect's are why charm is essentially incurable.

I mean, if there existed a cure for regret I sure as hell would like it.

Another thing that show that this is just regret is the part mentioned after Haruka was defeated, that the victims of Tomoki charm would need the careful support and forgive of their loved ones to eventually reach the point where they can forgive themselves for the crimes they did (like irl criminals and the search of redemption).

 

[YungManzi]

I mean, if there existed a cure for regret I sure as hell would like it.

Another thing that show that this is just regret is the part mentioned after Haruka was defeated, that the victims of Tomoki charm would need the careful support and forgive of their loved ones to eventually reach the point where they can forgive themselves for the crimes they did (like irl criminals and the search of redemption).

Well if your claim is that it’s acting similarly as a drug would, with the euphoria statement, wouldn’t that still be type 1 madness?

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

I agree with empathic manipulation and the charm effect increase the more they make eye contact, and yes effect depend on how much mana the person have like Haruka and Sofia (physical fighters, not so much magic gap with Sofia being lv900 + and Tomoki being lv600+) were easily affected by the charm , while there is a priestess in Hibiki party that wasn't effected (because she was blessed with alot of magic)

No for madness manipulation (maybe type 1 with perfume), it's more of regret otherwise he would have break his country instead of turning them into puppet. and again not a single person in the verse have a strong mind or will, they could just change her memory instead of the way it end.

I just remember when the Bug summoned Makoto and Shiki, Shiki was afraid (fear manipulation or Aura) but Makoto wasn't, I guess having more magic give the person passive Fear, Aura and something like limited immunity or invulnerability to magic (the more magic power difference between the two the less effective the power will be), also Makoto resist when the Goddess tried to give him a language skill.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Well if your claim is that it’s acting similarly as a drug would, with the euphoria statement, wouldn’t that still be type 1 madness?

Yes, with perfume.

 

[YungManzi]

Expec and Watcher, I’d like to point this out while you guys keep bringing up perfume statements and attributing it to charm: Canonically, the effect of perfume is far weaker than the effect of his actual charm.
So someone being able to recover from perfume doesn’t mean anything for the charm itself.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Well if your claim is that it’s acting similarly as a drug would, with the euphoria statement, wouldn’t that still be type 1 madness?

1: Biology: Certain characters can alter one's sanity through the use of biological methods, many of which involve tampering with specific parts of the brain. Chemical means (such as drugs, poisons and toxins) also fall under this category.

• Examples: The Scarecrow (DC Comics; achieved through the "Trauma Toxin")
• Limitations: Sufficient Resistance to Biological Manipulation can render this approach useless. Characters with robotic, elemental or Incorporeality forms are naturally immune to this due to lacking conventional biology.

Nah, Tomoki charm is just completely supernatural, so if anything it would fall in type 2.

 

[YungManzi]

It’s a supernatural power but if it has a biological effect isn’t that type 1?

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

It’s a supernatural power but if it has a biological effect isn’t that type 1?

No because it doesn't come from toxins, parasites or other things that are directly affecting the biology of the target to bring the effects, it come from a supernatural source (skills, the goddess power and the fact that work by perceiving his presence) and cause supernatural effects (affect the mana pools of the targets), is not really related to biological things.

 

[YungManzi]

That’s strange. Doesn’t sound right.

 

[YungManzi]

Like what’s the substantial difference between a power causing a chemical change in the brain and poison doing it?

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I mean, the description of Type 1 and 2, along with their examples and limitations seem pretty clear enough, one is for biological (and mostly realistic) things while the other is just straight up supernatural powers (like mind manip, or in Tomoki case specifically empathic manip which is a subset of mind manip).

Like what’s the substantial difference between a power causing a chemical change in the brain and poison doing it?

That one is supernatural and the other is biological? Also in the case of his charm he is just straight up directly affecting the target mind.

 

[YungManzi]

I mean, the description of Type 1 and 2, along with their examples and limitations seem pretty clear enough, one is for biological (and mostly realistic) things while the other is just straight up supernatural powers (like mind manip, or in Tomoki case specifically empathic manip which is a subset of mind manip).

That one is supernatural and the other is biological? Also in the case of his charm he is just straight up directly affecting the target mind.

That makes no sense though. If they both manipulate physical aspects of the brain when exert control then they should both be equivalent.

it’s like saying atomic manipulation via a space laser and atomic manipulation via magic are two different types of atomic manipulation.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

That makes no sense though. If they both manipulate physical aspects of the brain when exert control then they should both be equivalent.

it’s like saying atomic manipulation via a space laser and atomic manipulation via magic are two different types of atomic manipulation.

Revise the wiki standards then, the wiki is the one that do the distinction between supernatural and physical things.

 

[YungManzi]

Type 2 is supposed to relate to the abstract mind while type 1 is the physical.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I mean, the description of Type 1 and 2, along with their examples and limitations seem pretty clear enough, one is for biological (and mostly realistic) things while the other is just straight up supernatural powers (like mind manip, or in Tomoki case specifically empathic manip which is a subset of mind manip).

That one is supernatural and the other is biological? Also in the case of his charm he is just straight up directly affecting the target mind.

Neutral and not voting, but in this case, if the charm is supernatural, then it counts as a spell (in a way).

Also it does involve supernatural means of course.

Affecting the target’s mind without the need to hijack the brain itself via physical means isn’t impossible in the realm of fiction.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Neutral and not voting, but in this case, if the charm is supernatural, then it counts as a spell (in a way).

Also it does involve supernatural means of course.

Affecting the target’s mind without the need to hijack the brain itself via physical means isn’t impossible in the realm of fiction.

In the particular case of Tomoki iirc is something even more supernatural than simply magic, is an skill given by tha goddess so is more of an authority than anything else (same with his power to regenerate, even if his body is destroyed by a nuke, as long is night), so is full on supernatural in all senses.

And I didn't said otherwise, I actually believe that is what my sentences were saying, that in fiction affecting directly the mind with supernatural abilities isn't the same as affecting the biological brain of the target.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

In the particular case of Tomoki iirc is something even more supernatural than simply magic, is an skill given by tha goddess so is more of an authority than anything else (same with his power to regenerate, even if his body is destroyed by a nuke, as long is night), so is full on supernatural in all senses.

And I didn't said otherwise, I actually believe that is what my sentences were saying, that in fiction affecting directly the mind with supernatural abilities isn't the same as affecting the biological brain of the target.

That is what I was saying as well although I could post the reply for someone else.

Either way, there are physical means that does involve affecting the mind and/or brain and that will been like microchips, nanobots, and some other things as I kinda can remember off the top of my head for more physical things on methods of mind control anyway.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Either way, there are physical means that does involve affecting the mind and/or brain and that will been like microchips, nanobots, and some other things as I kinda can remember off the top of my head for more physical things on methods of mind control anyway.

Toxins and parasites are other physical means I can think would be able of affect the brain.

 

[YungManzi]

Revise the wiki standards then, the wiki is the one that do the distinction between supernatural and physical things.

It’s about time we split mm into types anyway.

Type 1 physical

Type 2 non-physical/abstract

Type 3 Irregular through some other means or specific wacky mechanics

Type 4 Conceptual

 

[YungManzi]

Bump