White Queen vs Saint-14

[Wokistan]

Why these matches so hard to find, maybe if I use anime people will go to my threads

Both 4-B

Speed Equal

Start 300m away from one another in Sentinel Prime

Saint-14 is equipped with Perfect Paradox, Not Forgotte, and D.A.R.C.I.

Saint-14:

The White Queen (Blood Sign):

Inconclusive:

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

I'm fairly certain that Saint-14 resists most of the shit that White Queen can do tbh

 

[Wokistan]

Remember though, you can kill a ghost if you hit it too hard.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I wish blood sign would get an anime....


Either way, the Queen's win con is to destroy the ghost then? IIRC those are the flying robot things that the protagonists of the games usually carry around?

Would the ghost be destroyed if the Queen does 360┬░ spacetime world erasure or does it have defensive mechanisms against such stuff?

What about the Soul of the saint? Is it in its own body or in the ghost? The page mentions that destruction of the soul is not that troublesome. So how would it stand with sending it to the afterlife?


Other way around, what is the Saint's win con? His law manipulation? If so which kind of reality alterations can he do with it and how much power does he have over a given law?

 

[Wokistan]

Ghosts come out when the Guardian dies, and should share resistances. Her AP seems higher though.

Saint-14 doesn't even have a soul, due to being an Exo. I don't think that would really do anything to someone who routinely has their soul destroyed, but that's just me.

His law manip is tied to his regular weapons. Guns are the tools which guardians use to enact their will on reality, rule makers and rule breakers. Saint-14 was powerful enough to last centuries against the Vex and force them to make a specific mind to finally put him down, and the Vex also stalemated The Daughters of Oryx before. His law is probably around there.

Void manipulation is also a big thing for him though, considering his subclasses he uses it a ton and can use it to erase attacks.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Ok, so shooting the ghost after killing the guardian is a realistic option.

Can the Saint defend against trillion simultanous independent spacetime erasing attacks or would that be too much multitasking?


They enact their will on reality, but which form/effect does that take? Or asked more to the point, what can it do to help permanently putting the Queen down?

Just erasure won't get rid of the Queen, unless its conceptual or something.


The Saint and the Queen have something in common in that the only enemy capable of defeating them was a tailor made hard counter. In the Queens case a tailor made physical manifestation of a newly created law of the universe.

 

[Wokistan]

I think he just resists. He already can cause rifts in the Vex Infinite Forest on his own and is fine there, and Vex in their own spaces normally have complete control over space and time there. Erased space time being an issue would contradict how he did it just by using his Light as a side effect. He can also throw up his Void bubble and erase incoming attacks, if need be.

Takes the effect of "Enemy is shot by gun and dies" lol. You don't really get the crazy esoteric applications until dudes like Oryx and his kids, but another relatively fodder enemy was able to etch truths into the forms of his enemies, and I'm pretty sure that's generalizable to this sort of law.

Not conceptual, but he was able to destroy time in part of the Infinite Forest. Void in general can drain life forces and destroy souls as well.

 

[Wokistan]

Would she be able to resurrect when under power null?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Well, the spacetime erasure is a bonus, the question of not dying when confronted with trillions of attacks on his level remains.


Time destruction and lifeforce stuff will be no use, either.

Essentially the White Queen has erased any method of defeat from the laws of the universe, using her control over them. You either need to remove her control over the world or some potent law manipulation to keep her down. If the gun for example only imposes some pre-existing law of death on the opponent it will do nothing, as the law of death itself is under the control of the Queen and has no method to defeat her.

Heck, even when someone removed her control over the 2 universes and completly erased her physical form the White Queen still just plopped back into existence.

Edit: If she can resurrect under power null depends on what you are power nulling. You would probably have to direct the power null at the laws of the universe.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Guardian law hax can overpower that of Oryx, albeit with a lot of help, and guys like The Warpriest

i'd say it gets past WQs law hax

 

[DontTalkDT]

These names don't tell me anything, so I have no idea how to evaluate that argument.

The laws I am talking about in relation to the Queen are the laws of 2 universes.

 

[Wokistan]

It's a neutral universe though. She needs to erase the laws first.

In Vex space, the thought of the Vex is absolute law. The domain of the Infinite Forest is a 2-B to 2-A sized space, where Vex hold absolute hegemony barring weird cases like Oryx. And yet, Saint-14 opposed them for centuries, long after he ran out of ammo and was fighting with only the last embers of his Light. Even cut off from the source, he burned bright enough to penetrate the layers of the IF and get picked up on the outside. Guardian law is directly connected to how strong that guardian is. While a good amount of his survivability can be attributed to how Light is one of those weird things the Vex can't understand, they were able to figure out enough to eventually kill him.

The Daughters of Oryx who the Vex also stalemated could on a whim create or destroy axioms defining the entire Ascendant Plane, which is definitely more than a universe in size.

 

[Wokistan]

Saint-14 wouldn't beat Oryx. That's just the Player Character, and also used Oryx's own power against him. Also there was 6 people.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

These names don't tell me anything, so I have no idea how to evaluate that argument.

The laws I am talking about in relation to the Queen are the laws of 2 universes.

to put it bluntly

Guardian law hax beats Hive law hax (most of the time) which is 2-B

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Saint-14 wouldn't beat Oryx. That's just the Player Character, and also used Oryx's own power against him. Also there was 6 people.

i didn't say he would tbf, granted i probably implied it

 

[Wokistan]

Well, the absolute strongest ones at least. Saint-14's def not an average guardian, most people would have been absolutely ****** by being trapped in the IF like that if not just offhandedly deleted. Basically just Osiris, the Player Character, and him can sustain themselves there.

 

[Wokistan]

As for the trillions of attacks on his level thing, do the attacks themselves have resistance to void/EE? The entire point of the sentinel subclass is basically to erase attacks.

Suppressor Grenades seem able to cut enemies off from universal things, judging by how they work on some Taken bosses and on many Guardian abilities. Probably not best to generalize things from player characters though.

They work for like, a couple seconds though so he'd have to kill her as she's suppressed if that was to work.

 

[DontTalkDT]

We won't usually take away essential parts of a characters power. Her immortality due to having changed laws is a permanent power of hers, essentially part of her physiology, it shouldn't be equalized away.


So what does the law manipulation do? Create new laws, manipulate existing laws, apply existing laws in new ways, destroy laws? "Enemy is shot by gun and dies" is nice, but not detailed on the mechanics. Assuming it kills, would it kill her 512 forms at once or would these be separate to all effects like usual? Actually... do these guns instant kill with law manipulation or just proportional to the damage?

Edit: The attacks themself have the EE properties as well. So I guess they would cancel out / erase each other in proportions equal to the strength?

 

[Wokistan]

That's fair.

With him, there really isn't one besides providing a huge resistance to other laws and just killing shit. He isn't one of the characters with the versatile applications and stuff. For Guardains its damage based, but when considering this remember the following:

• Everybody relevant resists law manipulation via their own, or something else.
• He is able to oppose a race that can use this very same power to do things that are decidedly not just regular attacks, and is comparable to others with such power in this regard.

Combat in Destiny seems to heavily involve metaphor. For example, when Oryx, the Taken King passively defeated Mara Sov, it was described as such:

In one way, she is vaporized with her Ketch, the bonds between the very particles of her body questioned by the harrowing logic of Oryx's weapon and found inessential. The mechanism of devastation is spontaneous fission. The author of the devastation is laughing in joy. In another way, a more true and symbolic way, she is impaled on Oryx's blade. She has thrown all her might at him, and he has answered. He has snuffed her fledgling divinity and her meager claim to royalty, he has exposed Mara to the raw and caustic hostility of his High War. She has been defeated by the sword logic.
	~ The Awoken of the Reef: Tyrannocide V​

Regular combat is a stand-in for the "more true and symbolic way", which leads me to believe that these alterations of law described as altering axioms just as Oryx does are such an idea as well. Make of this what you will.

As for the attack spam:

• Teleportation to exit
• Creating a Void shield to block and erase the attacks
• Low-Godly. Even though the Ghost can be hit, it's still ridiculously difficult to do so since they stay out for an exceedingly short period of time and are tiny.

 

[Wokistan]

Just saw your comment on the attacks and their erasure, and I'm not really sure. About a third of the guns in the game are void manip (One even shoots out black holes), and a lot of player and enemy abilities as well, but his shield blocks those all the same as any other attack without really suffering. Hell, one of the exotics gives you more power the more attacks you erase, and those void shields are easily capable of tanking blows that would instagib a guardian many times over. On the other hand, what you suggest would make sense, but idk.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Ok, so I will for now assume that law manipulation allows gun shots to kill the Queen, albeit I still don't really get what the law manipulation does and hence if it's justified.

If I understood the prior correctly I can assume that Regenerationn magic of the Queen works despite the law stuff and so do the 512 forms, giving the Queen some tanking power.

Given that the sword of truth covers much of her body she also has some shielding (and can create shields, duh.).

Precog should make her dodge well, too.


Perfect homing and her own teleportation counter escape via teleportation. Also one should keep in mind that the trillion attacks are via the self fighting weapons of the sword of truth, meaning the Queen can focus on landing her own much stronger attack the instant an opportunity arises. E.g. by firing lasers the instant after the saint teleports.

Void shield should be taken care of to due annihilation in equal amounts. That the shield can take other EE attacks is probably a testament to it just being somewhat more durable. Then again the Queen has "Scale Up Own Parameters (up to 256 times) ", so her attacks can also be much more powerful. After the void shield and the sword of truths first wave of weapons erase each other a second wave of weapons or the Queens own attacks can instantly follow. Ultimately he probably doesn't gain more time with than than what he needed to create the shield in the first place.

Or if it really comes down to it, she might just be able to portal past the shield.

The White Queen has perfect homing, extremly superhuman precision and omnidirectional attacks. Hitting a tiny object in a short amount of time should be no problem for her.

 

[Wokistan]

I don't think the 512 forms thing works out too well. Lots of people can make apparitions of themselves and such, doesn't give them extra staying power unless they're named Oryx.

Some of his guns here are void, and hit hard enough to one shot people on his level.

Precog doesn't work. He's got acausality 4. Can her homing follow him all the way to another planet when he engages transmat and turns into energy to leave?

Considering that one of the perks lets your shield actually get more and more energy the more you block and his already high resistance to EE via Vex being unable to just delete him across time, I don't think her stuff can get by the shield just by having EE properties of its own.

Not necessarily. Ghosts never really get shot on open battlefields even when sitting out in the open being fired at by an entire army. They can phase in and out and teleport themselves, and can resurrect Saint-14 in a different location not being bombarded if need be. Acausality means her precog can't track.

 

[Jackythejack]

Holy shoot this seems like...interesting at least. I know nothing about either but I'm gonna wait here and just see what happens.

This seems like a pretty good match though. Interested to see where the heck it goes.

 

[Wokistan]

Bump

 

[DontTalkDT]

I'm not sure about the 512 forms being useless. Their not apparitions like there being a true form and the rest being doubles. They are just 1 ups that replace the erased one. One of them is even widely believed to be an entirely different entity. The regen would work in any case?

No idea for her homing, but the Sword of Truth will automatically do whatever is necessary to make the White Queen win, including erasing the Solar System (or galaxy if we were to go with the more high end interpretation).

On her getting past the shield our opinions differ then. Though she should be able to simply portal past the shield unnless something prevents that. Is the shield passive and can he attack at the same time?

One thing worth mentioning is that before getting her type 8 immortality the White Queen defeated an entire species of 4-B people (the unexplored class aka laws of the universe). That battle started with her tanking attacks from hundreds to thousands of them to protect Kyousuke.

So she is quite tanky and since her own dress and body as EE properties, I'm quite confident that she can take a bunch of hits from the void guns.


Could the Queen attack the Ghost directly btw.? Given that she can interact with non-physical stuff, can erase spacetime and also otherwise ignore spacial restrictions, couldn't she just destroy it before it even spawns in?

And would information erasure work against the Saint?

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

So far this just seems like

>WQ spans danmaku

>Ward of Dawn.jpg

>Saint-14 proceedes to spam EE and power null grenades from behind cover

Saint-14 resists just about everything that WQ can do as well, as any law or info based stuff she has the Vex can do infinitely better

 

[DontTalkDT]

He doesn't have any resistance to Info stuff listed, though.

That aside by AP and number of attacks alone the WQ can do plenty damage. Even with his resistances it will hurt a lot.

And as said, she can just move past the Ward of Dawn, given her spatial shenanigans. In the first place, is a static shield is of limited use against an opponent that can teleport and comfortably attack you from outside your weapon range.


And anything Saint shoots at her is gonna get past the defense of trillion (recreatable) autonomous EE weapons first, so that's nothing he will easily be able to do.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

It's general vex stuff

Low-Godly > danmaku

True, but he can just make another one or chuck a Suppression Grenade in her face

Guardian weapons are weird, although just spamming EE grenades will get him through eventually

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Bump