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Xenoverse Tier Discussion

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The_2nd_Existential_Seed

The_2nd_Existential_Seed

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Demigra demon form by nyxdruid-d8z20at (1)
I personally feel that Xenoverse can potentially be a lot greater than what it is . Not by that much though, but it's a notable enough change . I remember a few things from XV that i would like answered and evaluated, becasue this may actually be legitimate. Please give me any sort of opinions about the discoveries i recently made :

- Chronoa says that a timeline is created whenever someone such as Trunks uses time travel. It was in XV2. That's a lot of timelines, considering : Time Patrol Trunks multiple shifts, Future Warrior's multiple shifts on a regular basis in XV1 , Mira and Towa's constant time hopping, and other occurences with Demigra. this is supposedly all within U7, not something like GT .So U7 is supposedly a combination of U7, plus all of the Universes.

- Whis confirms in a DLC that there are 12 Universes, just like Super. If a timeline is created everytime someone messes with history , all the aftelifes exists ( XV2 , Jamemba scene revealed the Afterlife was a thing in XV . ) , all 12 universes exists and most likely their timelines, then Demigra's " Master of All Time and Space " could possibly be taken as 2-C

- Demigra may be 2-C via the being the master of all of time and space in the U7 universe . Conisdering he was watching all of time and space from outside it all, we possibly can take what he says to heart. This may make him 2-C, and this claim was before he became the " Demon God " .

- If the Afterlifes have separate space-times, it would also make merging two timelines [ what Mira did ] essentially a 2-C feat as well.

- Mira merging the Timelines could be a 2-C feat whether it is mentioning the Afterlifes OR U7 being a composite of all the timelines created as a result of time hopping.

- If Demigra was a master of all of time and space with Toki-Toki , perhaps this may apply to being 2-C ? Especially considering we saw in DLC that his influence of Dark Magic effected other timelines like GT .

This means that Demigra may be 2-C after all via scaling to the Afterlifes, the differing timelines, and supposedly threatened to destroy it all, but also was the master of all time and space, which would scale to these timelines .This scales to anyone comparable or even as strong or stronger than Demigra was Unsure if the following would affect Base Mira and Bardock in anyway, it may make them on a much higher end of High 3-A , but i am unsure about anything like Low 2-C.
 
Not to mention that the parallel quests are also fragmented timelines. There is also the fact that Demigra was able to move Broly,Bardock,Vegeta and the GT Villains from one timeline to another via his wormholes even after he had died. That's some pretty decent control over Space-Time in my opinion.

I personally believe that Demigra's statement of having control over space and time is factual. However we should add on his weaknesses that he can't control his power very well due to the fact that Toki Toki was able to override his control for a brief moment.

I'm honestly fine with either "2-C" or even "At least Low 2-C" via the fact that he cant control his power very well.


Regarding the High 3-A's...i dont think they scale. They have their own feats and they should scale to those feats alone IMO.

But im fine with what the rest decide to be honest.
 
I personally believe those who scale to Base Demigra is 2-C on a high end ( If we include the twelve universes, that's 24 timelines. If we include timelines that are connected to U7 via time travel : Around 10-20, possibly far more , to an unknown extent, as this would basically include all the time Patroller's messing with time, plus everything else I mentioned ] because this claim was before he became Demon God, which massively amped his powers.

This is actually supported by him ( Demigra ) threatening to destroy the Time Nest. Keep in mind Demigra, according to the files , is around as powerful as SSB . Base Demigra was casually threatening to destroy the Time Nest, and was stated to be the master of all time and space , and if we consider the core of the time nest to be the nexus of all said timelines, this is a feat on a level Zeno has yet to counter. Not even counting Demon Ghod Demigra.

Let's remember that Base Demigra , Base Goku, along with the Future Warrior are around even .
 
The boost from base Demigra and Final Form Demigra is actually pretty notable. If we go from the files base Demigra is SSG to SSB level to going to Xenoverse Beerus Level which according to Super at least,it's pretty darn huge.
 
Definitely . That's not even a debatable at this point. Remember that Beerus in Super is much stronger than SSB Vegito , who is much stronger than Merged Zamasu, who is much stronger than SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta combined . SSB Goku should be much stronger than SS3 Post-God Essence Goku , who is much stronger than Base Goku, who is comparable to Base Demigra, who has that statement of being the master of all time and space. Definitely Multi-Universe level Final Form Demigra at least 10-20 times, possibly much more if you consider :

- The # of times every time patroller has used time travel to create a timeline each time they go on a mission . If we consider every time patroller to have gone through 10 missions , and there are at least 10 time patrollers [ lowball if you consider how many infest the place ] , that is at least one hundred timelines.

- The parallel quests also count as different timelines as well. Think about that for a second...

- The # of times Mira and Towa have used it over the years [ before Xenoverse, which is at least a couple of years ] , which would amass a lot of timelines being created.

- How much the Supreme Kai of Time has done over the years since Demigra's defeat many many years ago.

The scaling here is that Base Form Goku = Base Form Demigra, who is around at the very least 10-20, likely/possibly into the hundreds of timelines if we consider this fully with the above information. SS3 XVGoku is a lot stronger stronger than Base XV Goku . Final Form Mira taking on SSB Goku [ who should be on a completely different league compared to his previous level of power as SS3 Goku during his fight with Demigra ] , and only being defeated by a Super Dragon Fist, a technique only utilized by an opponent far stronger than you. Meaning, that Final Form Mira is a lot stronger than Demigra's base power , who has that ridiculous statement and implications of insane power . That means every XV character who scales to Base Goku is around hundreds X Multi-Universe Level. [Sigh] .That was a lot of analyzing. WAIT :

- Then we remember that SSB Goku is much much weaker than Merged Zamasu, who in turn is much much weaker than SSB Vegito .

- Then we remember that XV SSB Vegito isn't even remotely on the same league as XV Beerus or even XV Champa due to Super, meaning that Final Form Demigra is a lot stronger . Imagining XV Beerus steamrolling DBS Daikinashan and DBS Zeno is funny to say the least.

- XV Immortal Zamasu is 2-C on a higher end than even Final Form Demigra was, because it adds the timelines between XV1 and XV2 together, which makes it near 100 timelines together.

- XV2 BASE Future Warrior pretty much is capable of actually hurting XV Whis, something XV Beerus could never do in a lifetime unless implied, and would be very much near Whis' level when using his FP via his transformation. That is some crazy crap.

- XV has it's own version of DBS , so Universal Survival Tournament Jiren, Kale, Goku , Hit , are all ridiculously into the tier 2-C tier by that point .
 
Well before we get into the scaling we have to wait until this gets accepted first. I'm all for 2-C Demigra and the rest but we have to wait what the others think.


If this isn't accepted then I have another alternative:

AP:"At least Universe Level+"(absorbed Toki-Toki whose eggs can hatch into entire timelines. Stated to have control over Space and Time which would include U7 and perhaps even other timelines).
 
It explicitly stated "all of time and space" , not "Space and Time" . It will confuse people more than likely. The only reason this wouldn't be accepted is because someone assuming he is lying / exaggerating. For one, i don't seem him as the type to overestimate his powers. He seems to be a very calculating and smart individual [ considering he manipulated Towa, one of the smartest females in DB History ] , one who knows all the facts before stating them . He's cocky about being a Demon God sure, but nothing suggests he is overexaggerating, when he is literally shown to be in the Crack of Time, observing all the timelines.
 
I actually have quite a few things to add for Xenoverse upgrades. I planned to make a thread after DLC 5/last DLC came out for X2 when all the info was in, but there is alot of things that havent been brought up yet, like the egg, if it broke, being able to wipe out all the timelines according to Towa, showignit has far moe than Universe+ power, or Demigra having statements about being "beyond time and space" and able to trancend being's spatialy as the description of one of his attacks. Plus of course the things you guys mentined with Demigra's known statements and so on, some statements about infinte and huge amounts of timelines, a bunch of abilities for the pattroler not yet listed etc.
 
Well that could be true. But lets see what the rest think. We also have to take into account the afterlife which might even solidify the "At least Low 2-C" alternative if "2-C" isnt accepted. But i agree.
 
@SSJRyu1 heya SSJRyu. Its been a while since you have been here. Glad to have you back.

I dont know about the egg statement though. Its probably not even combat applicable. However i can agree about the rest.
 
Your help will be most appreciated if you can find all of the things you are stating , Ryu . This is defiintely grand enough to note if we find them . We can discuss them here, as this is a discussion thread meant to discuss upgrades before making a revision. If it [ The Egg ] truly could wipe out all the timelines, both Future Warriors scale to that , as well as Beerus and Final Form Demigra ( Because the Egg is more than likely much weaker than the Bird itself, Tokitoki ) . That alone would solidify their 2-C rating more than before.

As for Julian, i definitely would like more input. I don't want them to be " At least Low 2-C " , but if anything, the Afterlifes will definitely help, as well as proof that the twelve universes are a part of XV.
 
Hey, good to be back. Well the egg thing basically is mira is about to overload right, so towa says if he ruptures the egg shes holding it would not even matter if she left the universe, it would destroy one after the other and she could not escape, and she can jump timelines and even leave time, so imo its meaning the egg's full power can wipe multiple universes minimum, if not the entire multiverse. Also there is WAY more than just that to. I might as well go ahead and make that thread now if we are goign to go ahead and get Xenoverse upgraded. It may take a little bit to set up but I will link you to it as soon as I finish and you can let me know what you think.
 
Well I suppose you could make it if you want too @SSJRyu1. If you want you could tell us when you have made it or you could just post the links and your arguments here.


I'm still a little skeptical about the egg thing though but give it a go if you want.
 
I agree with Julian. Just post your links and arguments here ont his thread, and we'll evaluate it before the admins and mods see it. I may not be good at a lot of things, but Dragon Ball Xenoverse related i am very knowledgable, so i should be able to give good advice.
 
WAIT a minute. Demigra w/Toki-Toki's power was going to recreate all of reality when he said " I was going to create a new history . MY History " . All of history is essentially all of Xenoverse. Should we assume Base Form for such a feat ? That is literally saying he can re-create all of history, aka all of the timelines . What the heck ?! How did i not notice that line before ?
 
Well he never said he was going to recreate history in the form that Xenoverse had it. He said he was going to create his own history. That could probably be "At least Low 2-C" to even "2-C" but im skeptical about using this statement. We already have the controlling all time and space statement though.
 
Yeah. That one statement is good enough. But still, i am kinda doubting he was saying it like one timeline or even a few . That would actually be inconsistent. Throughout all of Xenoverse: History always meant All of Xenoverse , in which case meant the time vault. This is supported by Demigra's two lines : I'll destroy it all [ AKA All the timelines ] , [ Controls All of time and space ] , etc. There's also a few things i want to bring up :

- The Time Rift is outside the Time Vault in it's totality, yet Goku can use instant transmission to get there. " HOW sway ! " .

- Speaking of , the battle between the duo and Demigra was destroying the Time Rift, an area outside of the time and space of regular Xenoverse, which has a lot of timelines.

- A fight between Goku and FW would destroy the Time Vault as a side-effect via Chronoa's warning ( Keep in mind, the only offical threats who were a danger to the Time Vault were Demigra, & Beerus up until this point BTW ) , which supposedly houses all the timelines in XV. Albeit, we aren't sure how many there are.
 
There is also the fact that a battle between the Future Warrior and Beerus would have also destroyed the Time Vault. Also Towa is legit evidence that having Toki-Toki (or at least an egg of him) grants you solid Space-Time Manipulation and decent control over Space Time.
 
Yeah the statement was with just an egg of his . Speaking of said egg : If Towa can't escape it's destruction by even being outside of all time and space , that is definitely worrying, considering like Ryu said, it would destroy all of existence because of the implications Towa said . If she can't escape it, that means it would envelop every timeline until none is left. Seems High-End Multi-Universal to me[ depending on if Ryu can bring evidence of what he claims, then we'll discuss Multiversal to Multiversal+ to High Multiversal ] , and i even remember her saying that in the storyline. This would definitely scale to Demigra though if it's Multi-Universal, as "the egg itself" is such a tiny portion of the power he did have. I'm not talking about the egg + Final Form Mira ( Who was stated to be capable of destroying the egg anyways by his lonesome ) .

Even Whis was generally concerned about what happened to the Egg, who wasn't anywhere near concerned when the Time Vault and all of existence was threatened by Demigra's casual acts . Definitely notable .
 
Yeah I don't think Multiversal+ is happening. Maybe Multi-Universal perhaps Multiversal. But 2-A I don't know.
 
I don't doubt his resourcefulness. The problem is he needs to find direct evidence, like a quote saying how many timelines or even realities are in Xenoverse. Multi-Universal to Multiversal is more than likely, 2-A is really if he finds the right information.

Would this actually be enough evidence ?
 
Yeah I'm just saying that 2-A would be a little bit of a stretch. But I suppose I'm going to wait.
 
I understand. I thnk 2-C or 2-B is a great starting point. However.. this link may imply 2-B as well as 2-A. Let's analyze the following information... slowly :

- Alternate timelines are created from relatively simple things happening . It isn't just messing with time, it can be anything, meaning we can add a crapton of timelines ontop of what we already estimated .

- In Xenoverse, History can take up an Infintie Number of Paths supposedly . That definitely reminds me of Noein and the infintiely branching timelines .

- History has no finite limit according to the creators of Xenoverse 2 . Yeah.. NLF as that statement is, definitely counts for something .

-The following Quote : " Because Mira interfered with history everywhere he went, the resulting myriad of time paradoxes was putting a strain on the limited capacity of the entire universe" . Mira actually messed up by his lonesome, a myriad/endless/likely or possibly infinite number of time paradoxes, therefore making an endless number of timelines by his lonesome, let alone with the help of others.

So yeah... This may be legitimate after all.
 
Some interesting connections i made :

- Beerus said that Vegeta could beat him as an SSJ4 in XV . XV SSJ4 Vegeta even was happy to fight Beerus saying " A God of Destruction vs SSJ4. How exciting ! " . Does this mean that SSJ4 rivals or even surpasses the Demon God Demigra ?

- XV SSJ4 Gogeta fused and Beerus awes at their power. XV SSJ4 Gogeta thinks he can also beat him.

- Both of the above are important because The Future Warrior fought enemys who compared to Gogeta and SSJ4 level opponents, who according to Beerus [ SSJ4 level, not SSJ4 Gogeta level ] may actually beat him in single combat.Any thoughts ?
 
Well that is already on the Future Warrior's profile so we don't need that information at the moment.
 
I see... Is my last post [ the stuff about the nature of Xenoverse / myraidsto infintie numbers of timelines via the distortions Mira causes, which we already was shown to be the cause of the timelines , an legitimate reason for such an upgrade ? It came from handbooks and the creators of the game, so i believe it should be taken into consideration.
 
It depends if the statement of master of Time and Space is accepted then perhaps this would be acceptable. I'm going to sleep for now and I will continue this tommorrow.
 
I disagree with anything above 2-C.

2-C is reasonable, given Mira's universe fusing feat.
 
Well I agree with Promestein. However we should probably give SSJRyu1 a chance to voice his opinion.
 
... I work hard to find this ... Yet you completely ignore it . Can you at least give me an explanation of why ? It took me hours upon hours of searching to find said information. Fricking forget it. I'll explain it here . I doubt it'll matter anyways, but here is a basic outline :

- Chronoa stated that whenever anyone messed with the timeline, a new timeline was formed .

- Combine that with the info i got here and that equals an endless number of timelines .

- All of history basically means all of the timelines in XV terms. It has been threatened and nearly destroyed at several different points in the story , such as : Base Demigra threatening to destroy it, Base Demigra threatening to re-create it, Base Goku holding back an very casual blast from Base Demigra that was created to end all of history , Goku and FW having a spar would end all of history, same with Beerus and FW having a spar .

That's the basic outline . To be quite honest, i would've loved it if you would've at least attempted to debate, instead of having this stance on the matter that says just from the words : " It is final. Nothing can possibly be different " .
 
However Demigra's statement of having control over time and space should also be taken into account.
 
Alright. I got a rough outline of the argument for an infinte multiverse and higher tiering for the god tiers. Any input or additions of course is apprieciated.


So, I believe that the Xenoverse characters, specifically the god tiers should likely be upgraded. Here are a few statements and feats to support this.


1. The time egg from toki toki is capable of more than just creating 1 timeline. In fact it is stated, if the time egg is broken then everybody will go up in smoke, despite jumping timelines and having the abiltiy to even leave timespace of the multiverse. So while Mira's overload is capable of destroying multiple timelines, so is the time egg if broken to. Thus it likely has more than a single timeline level of power when used to it's full capacity.


http://i.imgur.com/9NILTFS.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/eN6gTyI.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/LAuiLsO.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/MmqRjUb.jpg


[COLOR=rgba(0,0,0,0.87)]2. Towa and Mira planned to fuse the demon realm with Universe after obtaining Toki-Toki's egg.[/COLOR]


http://i.imgur.com/dMvshzm.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/6psuCeW.jpg


3. Beerus and Whis actually tank the destruction of the entire multiverse casually. When Demigra destroys the time vault succesfully and all timelines with it Beerus had went back to his castle in his timeline to sleep, and Whis with him. It is stated by Whis later that he ahd watched it all and the events were no big deal and not worth even waking Beerus up for. So they literally tanked the erasure of the multiverse unharmed, it didn't even wake Beerus up.


https://imgur.com/a/5e2jr


https://imgur.com/a/MnLgd


https://imgur.com/a/ODy5t


And here we see the scroll for the timelines are blank after the future warrior is saved by Toki-Toki.


https://imgur.com/a/qvynt


4. Beerus is also unafraid of the destruction of the multiverse from Demigra knowing full well what it entails, and even willing to cause it himself to.


http://i.imgur.com/y3x6giA.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/URIwlfZ.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/3Dck7Hz.jpg


5. Even Old Kai in the time nest is afraid of Beerus destroying everything from within the U7 timeline, no time nest. Beerus is even stated by him to be able to end the Universe.


http://i.imgur.com/JER2vGN.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/YZ3W11a.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/9Psbp2O.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/Dx5j604.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/XwZvtWY.jpg


6. The kai of Time states Beerus could destroy everything, all history, this is when he was not in the time vault or aquainted with the pattroler.


http://i.imgur.com/koF2lfV.png


http://i.imgur.com/NMLVUGC.png


http://i.imgur.com/DJdaumG.png


7. It is confirmed by Kai of time that Demigra was indeed warping time, the Universe, all of History, everything, and the future warrior saved all of it. This is beyond just one Universe. So clearly above Universe+.


http://imgur.com/mw6WwOP


http://imgur.com/HQndtfE


http://i.imgur.com/7LxXCWp.png


http://i.imgur.com/ISqwcQ6.png


http://i.imgur.com/lGbUFVC.png


8. Demigra is stated to control all of space and all of time.


http://imgur.com/0cZ2Dpe


9. Demigra can create his own history in his image.


http://imgur.com/QQkjB5u


10. Demigra is stated in v-jump to be the final villain "beyond time and space"


https://imgur.com/a/xSdJG


11. Demigra's attack description for one of his moves in Heroes states that he "spatialy trancends" other dark makai warriors.


https://imgur.com/a/C9XQ3


12. Demigra can create and throw time chasm crystals as one of his attacks in heroes. These crystals hold Ages, or in Xenvoere timelines.


https://imgur.com/a/Oe25a


https://imgur.com/a/Dqahk


https://imgur.com/a/qAJ5i


https://imgur.com/a/4kxfP


https://imgur.com/a/mI5A


Proof ages are timelines, such as Turnks future one.


https://imgur.com/a/cuwAW


https://imgur.com/a/YNlyP


https://imgur.com/a/2Prfb


https://imgur.com/a/NsNvv


https://imgur.com/a/YtDnm


https://imgur.com/a/rKeha


Showing at the start that the crystals hold ages again, and that one is actually destroyed when Buu gets powered up and the outcome of history changes.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysn74eGFYC8


13. Zamasu crosses the entire multiverse and trancends the timelines to reach the time nest even.

https://i.imgur.com/WA6hES3

https://i.imgur.com/fPtJLez

https://i.imgur.com/8v8tpEC

https://i.imgur.com/asl6dhR

https://imgur.com/a/qwoDs

https://imgur.com/a/5YJqZ

https://imgur.com/a/0at9Z


Now that we have covered many of the most impressive feats and statemtns about teh power of the gods in DBX, we should cover the size of the multiverse and each timeline actually.


1. Each timeline contains 12 Universes just like in DBS, as well as an afterlife and other realms seperate from each as seen with the janemba battles.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSKd8sauDZw


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATLjKRDZur8


So erasing or controling 1 timeline is actually multi-Universal.


2. There are ALOT more than 4 timelines in DBX to unlike Super.


1. As far as how many timelines there are, we see directly in Xenoverse that there are many, such as for the movies and GT, each scroll is one theoretically, and it is even explained by trunks that all the time fragments are alternate timelines, they result in scrolls, but even when fixed and added to the main scroll the timelines remain regardless, if to many scrolls accumulate then it can destroy the Universe by destroying the time vault.


http://i.imgur.com/LqGoiOe.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/gnkrNem.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/fvH07QP.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/TUBrGIp.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/mvoIeur.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/6ouK0iO.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/Ncpktg7.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/Z25Tp21.jpg


2. We even see it stated outright that there are "infinite" timelines/paths for history to take, and that there is "no end to it" and it is "hard to keep track of the proper one", proving the paths already exist, and are infinite histories or timelines they can't keep track of.


https://imgur.com/a/3UUOU


3. In Super Pilaf states there are "tons" of timelines. Note Pilaf was able to fix a problem with the time machine that Bulma was having trouble with, and was making giant mechs even in Dragon Ball, so he is a genius and understands time travel.


http://i.imgur.com/Qh3jbV7.jpg


4. It is stated by Trunks that "many diffrent futures are created over the smallest of things" showing any changes/decisions result in many timelines being made during time travel in DB.


https://imgur.com/a/0FNKN


5. And if we connect Shin Budokai which is a sequel to fusion reborn and 2 years after buu, so technically can link to Xenoverse since it also has FR timeline and many others, then according to Cell there are "endless" timelines.


http://i.imgur.com/J9flgps.jpg
 
@Seed well I don't know what else to say to be honest. I mean those timelines you are referring to could range from 2-C to even 2-B but otherwise it would be unquantifiable.


Besides I think SSJRyu1 has found a good deal of evidence that could prove useful.
 
Pretty much. That's why i referenced it. I just didn't want it to get swatted away after we did all of this without being properly looked over. That's all i desire.
 
They placed him as 2-C with prep only, Low 2-C normally. But as you can see the xenoverse characters have many feats/statements to place them easily as 2-C without prep, and likely far higher tbh.
 
The best i can give to Xenoverse is 2-C for Final Mira and etc.
 
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