Yu-Gi-Oh! GX and 2-C: The Last of Many.

[Zencha9]

btw i asked Ultima Di and KingPin0422 about subspaces are just a "subset of a given space" and the 2nd definition (the one you used) only appeared in star trek
and in star trek a sub-space is "a hyperdimensional thing that contains infinite universes and higher dimensions"
so yeah it's just a subset of a given space unless proven otherwise

 

[Antvasima]

It doesn't seem like this discussion will ever be properly concluded.

 

[SomebodyData]

your interpretation assumes that the 11 dimensions are comparable to neo space right ? neo space is on Io, 11 Ios combined are way bellow earth
remember how the darkness in people's hearts didn't make it bigger and only created cards ? that works exactly the same as the humans trapped inside the cards?
i.e nonexistent

Well, I'm not saying they're the exact size of Io and we already know the World of Darkness expanded anyways according to Honest. Not sure what this point is unless you want the 11 dimensions to be 5-C instead?

btw i asked Ultima Di and KingPin0422 about subspaces are just a "subset of a given space" and the 2nd definition (the one you used) only appeared in star trek
and in star trek a sub-space is "a hyperdimensional thing that contains infinite universes and higher dimensions"
so yeah it's just a subset of a given space unless proven otherwise

I don't really mind using the first definition if the latter only applies to Star Trek but I'm not sure why you think the first definition, "a subset of a given space" changes anything.

The only definition that really applies here according to Wikipedia was the sci-fi one and I guess the second one, but they both end with the same conclusion.

Also, I've been looking back in GX for scans to further assist here. And I found a big one:

Yubel confirms the twelve dimensions exist within the universe and only sees them as different spaces to inhabit. (Episode 154, ~12 minutes in).

Reaffirmed by Yubel just minutes later as well.

 

[SomebodyData]

It doesn't seem like this discussion will ever be properly concluded.

Well I guess we could just go ahead and repost the summaries for staff to see while Zencha and I just ending the discussion here and putting it to a final vote.

 

[Zencha9]

Well, I'm not saying they're the exact size of Io and we already know the World of Darkness expanded anyways according to Honest. Not sure what this point is unless you want the 11 dimensions to be 5-C instead?

i'm saying WoD would be 5-C by your interpretation and that causes contradictions, also why compare neo space to the 11 dimensions if you don't know the exact size ?, it expanded by absorbing the 11 dimensions....

I don't really mind using the first definition if the latter only applies to Star Trek but I'm not sure why you think the first definition, "a subset of a given space" changes anything.

The only definition that really applies here according to Wikipedia was the sci-fi one and I guess the second one, but they both end with the same conclusion.

Also, I've been looking back in GX for scans to further assist here. And I found a big one:


Yubel confirms the twelve dimensions exist within the universe and only sees them as different spaces to inhabit. (Episode 154, ~12 minutes in).


Reaffirmed by Yubel just minutes later as well.

we went over this in the last thread when we were questioning if it qualifies for Low 1-C because of the overall universe contains other universes and it was rejected
here it says the 12 universes are in different dimensions

じゅ十二にの 次元 に 分かれ て 存在 する 全て の 宇宙 僕 の 十 代 に 対する 愛 で 満たす と

i'll fill all the twelve universes that exists in different dimensions with my love for you, Judai.

 

[Antvasima]

Well I guess we could just go ahead and repost the summaries for staff to see while Zencha and I just ending the discussion here and putting it to a final vote.

I suppose so, yes.

 

[SomebodyData]

Bump

Just need a few staff replies if any of you are willing.

 

[Zencha9]

btw are you still holding on onto the neo space point despite the sub-space stuff ?

 

[SomebodyData]

Yeah, like I said earlier: "I don't really mind using the first definition if the latter only applies to Star Trek but I'm not sure why you think the first definition, "a subset of a given space" changes anything.

"The only definition that really applies here according to Wikipedia was the sci-fi one and I guess the second one, but they both end with the same conclusion." Ie it would still share the same properties as the space it comes from, aka a timeline/universe, much like the microverse in say Marvel.

 

[Zencha9]

it changes stuff because neo space would be a subset of the main universe (the one that has earth etc) while being a universe itself which is contradictory
and it's obviously isn't a space-time because a normal satellite and a spaceship reahced it with no problem

 

[SomebodyData]

...Not if being a universe in the series can be tier 5 (Like Neo Space is stated to be), hence no contradiction. Also, subspace is a real-world idea. Calling it contradictory is uh, bizarre to say the least.

Said spaceship was from the Light of Destruction- and didn't you guys previously state that random lasers going through the dimensions didn't count yet a satellite made by Kaiba of all people is the issue?

Also, seems kinda weird to continue the argument even though both sides have agreed to let it be a vote.

 

[Zencha9]

we are talking about the main universe are you saying the main universe is tier 5 ?
LoD can't reach any of the 12 dimensions, the lasers are from super poly which can cover the 12 dimensions
i guess, i just find your reasoning to be really bizarre

 

[SomebodyData]

We are talking about Neo Space- or at least I thought we were.
LoD reached the universe & Neo Space, so that gets thrown out the window rather easily.
Idk what to say, but from the conversation on your wall I think you might just be misreading what I'm saying. Would explain some of your arguments, like the universe not being low 1-C when I never said it was?

 

[Zencha9]

we are talking about how neo space relates to the main universe and is a subset of it
the universe doesn't have any alternate dimensions as far as i know it just has neo space, neo space was reached by a regular satellite and a regular spaceship plus you need to prove that it uses the light's powers
i'm confused i never claimed that you're saying that the 12 universe are Low 1-C

 

[SomebodyData]

we are talking about how neo space relates to the main universe and is a subset of it

Yeah. Neo Space being a subspace / universe can still be a different size from the main universe.

the universe doesn't have any alternate dimensions as far as i know it just has neo space, neo space was reached by a regular satellite and a regular spaceship plus you need to prove that it uses the light's powers

I presented the fact that the alt. dimensions are in the main universe a few posts earlier.

Yubel confirms the twelve dimensions exist within the universe and only sees them as different spaces to inhabit. (Episode 154, ~12 minutes in).

Reaffirmed by Yubel just minutes later as well.

i'm confused i claimed that you're saying that the 12 universe are Low 1-C

Between telling you no I don't believe that in the message wall and the fact that I never said that here (Not to mention it goes entirely against the rating I'm working for), I don't even know why you would think that?

It's not even a misreading as much as it being pulled completely out of the air.

 

[Zencha9]

Yeah. Neo Space being a subspace / universe can still be a different size from the main universe.

okay so let me get this

neo space is on the io moon
it is a universe
is called a sub-space
it is part of the main universe and subset of it
it is never included when talking about the universe (for example aqua dolphin doesn't say to save the universes he just tells jaden to save the universe and it would save both earth and neo space as a result)

and you still think that uchu meaning universe is legit ?

I presented the fact that the alt. dimensions are in the main universe a few posts earlier.

Yubel confirms the twelve dimensions exist within the universe and only sees them as different spaces to inhabit. (Episode 154, ~12 minutes in).


Reaffirmed by Yubel just minutes later as well.

the main universe is one of the twelve dimensions how does it contain itself and 11 other dimensions ?
that's ignoring a bunch of contractions that would come from this and it just makes me question if you actually believe this

Between telling you no I don't believe that in the message wall and the fact that I never said that here (Not to mention it goes entirely against the rating I'm working for), I don't even know why you would think that?

It's not even a misreading as much as it being pulled completely out of the air

what is even happening i have no idea what we're talking about

 

[Antvasima]

Well I guess we could just go ahead and repost the summaries for staff to see while Zencha and I just ending the discussion here and putting it to a final vote.

So are you willing to write an easy to understand, but sufficiently comprehensive, explanation summary, after which I can try to get other staff members to participate again?

 

[Imaginym]

okay so let me get this

neo space is on the io moon
it is a universe
is called a sub-space
it is part of the main universe and subset of it
it is never included when talking about the universe (for example aqua dolphin doesn't say to save the universes he just tells jaden to save the universe and it would save both earth and neo space as a result)

and you still think that uchu meaning universe is legit ?

If it is a universe, why shouldn't "uchu" mean universe in this context?

 

[Elizhaa]

I kind of agree with the opposition's arguments, from what I read.

 

[Zencha9]

If it is a universe, why shouldn't "uchu" mean universe in this context?

Because neo space is on the moon and inside the main universe while being a subset of said universe
And Because it isn't treated as a universe like aqua dolphin doesn't tell judai to save the universes he just tells him to save a single universe and that would save both neo space and Earth

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out Elizhaa.

 

[SomebodyData]

Because neo space is on the moon and inside the main universe while being a subset of said universe
And Because it isn't treated as a universe like aqua dolphin doesn't tell judai to save the universes he just tells him to save a single universe and that would save both neo space and Earth

Just a reminder that the Light of Darkness was also the cause of Yubel threatening the 12 universes; so you would have to include the other dimensions with that argument.

These scans shut down the argument, and tbh should just conclude the debate altogther.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Antvasima

A few changes have been added, but it's basically the same.

The World of Darkness consumed/absorbed the 12 duel-spirit dimensions and grew accordingly:

The World of Darkness however is only 5-B afterwards, also shown after it makes an eclipse in their last duel:

With another universe in the series at best being the size of a moon:

And the other dimensions existing within the universe, just like Neo Space:

Finally, it should be noted that in both cases as shown above you could see the main universe from these dimensions. Hence the scans showing the multiple stars / moons in the desert dimension as well as the stars in the dark world aren't proof of anything. They can quite literally just be from our universe and the characters seeing them from that dimension.

 

[Zencha9]

Just a reminder that the Light of Darkness was also the cause of Yubel threatening the 12 universes; so you would have to include the other dimensions with that argument.


These scans shut down the argument, and tbh should just conclude the debate altogther.

not it was not, what are you talking about the reason why she was threatening the 12 universes was because of super poly that she got from the alt universe
dude you know she was in one of the 12 dimensions when she said that right ?

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the reply.

Can somebody write a list of which staff members that agree with what so far please?

 

[Zencha9]

Agree with @SomebodyData :
DarkDragonMedeus
Ogbunabali

Agree with me:
DemonGodMitch
DinoRangerBlack
QuasiYuri
Elizhaa

Neutral:
Crabwhale
Samanpatou (Argues At least 4-A, likely 2-C)
Mr.Bambu (thinks a compromise should be a fine solution, but it might not be valid since we moved from the semantics arguments)

other:
AKM and KingTempest told me that they will look into this thread later
edit: (akm told me that he won't make any promises since he's busy)

 

[Antvasima]

Agree with @SomebodyData :
DarkDragonMedeus
Ogbunabali

Agree with me:
DemonGodMitch
DinoRangerBlack
QuasiYuri
Elizhaa

Neutral:
Crabwhale
Samanpatou (Argues At least 4-A, likely 2-C)
Mr.Bambu (thinks a compromise should be a fine solution, but it might not be valid since we moved from the semantics arguments)

other:
AKM and KingTempest told me that they will look into this thread later
edit: (akm told me that he won't make any promises since he's busy)

Okay. Thank you for the summary. I suppose that the profiles will likely either stay as they are or be given a compromise solution then.

@Antvasima

I've already posted my summary (I'll also be adding Zencha's subspace statement), but Zencha will have to summarize his own points.

The World of Darkness consumed/absorbed the 12 duel-spirit dimensions and grew accordingly:

The World of Darkness however is only 5-B afterwards, also shown after it makes an eclipse in their last duel:

With another universe in the series at best being the size of a moon:

And Zencha accidentally further concluding this:
"btw i found in the summary of ep 62 that they call neo space a sub-space ( scan , source )
translation
clarification"

Subspace meaning another space-time in fiction.

Finally, it should be noted that in both cases as shown above you could see the main universe from these dimensions. Hence the scans showing the multiple stars / moons in the desert dimension as well as the stars in the dark world aren't proof of anything. They can quite literally just be from our universe and the characters seeing them from that dimension.

@Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Wokistan @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions

Would any of you be willing to evaluate this please?

 

[Zencha9]

as SD said i don''t agree with the compromise

I don't think either Zencha or I would agree with the compromise, as either end seem really far-fetched to the other.

 

[Zencha9]

my summary btw

the 12 dimensions​

what are the 12 dimensions ?
basically they are parallel dimensions which are based on quantom theory

now that that's cleared up let's start with size:
1-as shown the 12 dimensions are stated to be universal in size 3 times

Spoiler: translation

じゅ十二にの 次元 に 分かれ て 存在 する 全て の 宇宙 僕 の 十 代 に 対する 愛 で 満たす と
i'll fill all the twelve universes that exists in different dimensions with my love for you, Judai.

2- desert dimensions has stars and moons inside it
(the dimension has no name so i call it the desert dimensions)

3- the dark world dimensions has constellations inside it

inconsistencies/stuff that doesn't make sense​

1-neo space is inside the human world and is on Io a moon that orbits jupiter and is obviously isn't a part of the 12 dimensions since it has never been called a part of the 12 dimensions and it was never even called a dimension in general

2-neo space has never been called a dimensions it's always been called "neo supēsu"(meaning neo space in english) it's been called "neo uchu" twice (uchu meaning either space or universe) and it's been called a sub-space once, and it's pretty obvious how ridiculous it is to say that io is a universal space-time instead of just a normal space inside another space
i.e a location within another space

3-the size of the world of darkness:
we all know how darkness absorbed the 12 dimensions but is still planet level in size

the problem with this is that @SomebodyData 's interpretation still doesn't make sense since he's not only ingoring the stars and constellations, his interpretation of the 12 dimensions being moon sized would still make the world of darkness be bigger than the planet which isn't the case since they are stated and shown to be equal

​

the solution to the world of darkness size problem​

since both my and @SomebodyData 's interpretation would still make the world of darkness bigger than earth here's the solution

it's fairly simple since it's explained in the show how inside the world of darkness is a place where physical form is not needed and how it's void that will make people live for all eternity
and how once you lose your individuality you'll fully become one with darkness and you will get erased from existence

 

[Antvasima]

as SD said i don''t agree with the compromise

Okay then.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Antvasima

Here's the updated version of my summary:

Preface: To avoid any further confusion, I need to mention I'm not arguing these dimensions aren't called universes. I'm merely pointing out these universes are significantly smaller in size than the Low 2-C timelines we generally think of.

The World of Darkness consumed/absorbed the 12 duel-spirit dimensions and grew accordingly:

The World of Darkness however is only 5-B afterwards, also shown after it makes an eclipse in their last duel:

With another universe in the series at best being the size of a moon:

And the other dimensions existing within the universe, just like Neo Space:

Finally, it should be noted that in both cases as shown above you could see the main universe from these dimensions. Hence the scans showing the multiple stars / moons in the desert dimension as well as the stars in the dark world aren't proof of anything. They can quite literally just be from our universe and the characters seeing them from that dimension.

 

[Zencha9]

With another universe in the series at best being the size of a moon:

And the other dimensions existing within the universe, just like Neo Space:

Finally, it should be noted that in both cases as shown above you could see the main universe from these dimensions. Hence the scans showing the multiple stars / moons in the desert dimension as well as the stars in the dark world aren't proof of anything. They can quite literally just be from our universe and the characters seeing them from that dimension.

you always bring up neo space and the world of darkness to discredit the 12 dimensions and til this post you have yet to prove how any of them even relate to the 12 dimensions, let alone being dimensions in the first place since neo space and WoD were never been stated to be a dimension

and again you're wrong on this one the 12 universe exists within the 12 dimensions including the main universe since it's one of the 12 dimensions

Spoiler: translation

じゅ十二にの 次元 に 分かれ て 存在 する 全て の 宇宙 僕 の 十 代 に 対する 愛 で 満たす と
i'll fill all the twelve universes that exists in different dimensions with my love for you, Judai.

so explain to me please how could the main universe be part of the 12 dimensions while encompassing the 12 dimensions and also having it's own 12 dimensions

 

[Antvasima]

@Antvasima

Here's the updated version of my summary:

Preface: To avoid any further confusion, I need to mention I'm not arguing these dimensions aren't called universes. I'm merely pointing out these universes are significantly smaller in size than the Low 2-C timelines we generally think of.

The World of Darkness consumed/absorbed the 12 duel-spirit dimensions and grew accordingly:

The World of Darkness however is only 5-B afterwards, also shown after it makes an eclipse in their last duel:

With another universe in the series at best being the size of a moon:

And the other dimensions existing within the universe, just like Neo Space:

Finally, it should be noted that in both cases as shown above you could see the main universe from these dimensions. Hence the scans showing the multiple stars / moons in the desert dimension as well as the stars in the dark world aren't proof of anything. They can quite literally just be from our universe and the characters seeing them from that dimension.

Okay. I am making a final attempt to get our staff interested in helping out here. If not, there is not much else we can do except let the verse remain as it currently is. My apologies.

@Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Wokistan @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @Dino_Ranger_Black @Gemmysaur @JustSomeWeirdo @LordGriffin1000 @Theglassman12 @Crabwhale @Eficiente @GyroNutz @DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way @Moritzva @Firestorm808 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Everything12 @Duedate8898 @Planck69 @KingTempest @The_Impress @QuasiYuri

Would any of you be willing to help out with evaluating this thread, so we can finally conclude this discussion?

 

[Zencha9]

keep in mind that SD's argument in this whole thread is that the rest of the 11 dimensions are inside the main universe ( the one that has earth, humans etc )
but the main universe is part of the 12 dimensions so the universe that would encompass the 12 dimensions wouldn't be the main universe since it can't encompass itself if that makes sense

 

[Zencha9]

also hopefully for the last time this is my summary

the 12 dimensions​

what are the 12 dimensions ?
basically they are parallel dimensions which are based on quantom theory

now that that's cleared up let's start with size:
1-as shown the 12 dimensions are stated to be universal in size 3 times

Spoiler: translation

じゅ十二にの 次元 に 分かれ て 存在 する 全て の 宇宙 僕 の 十 代 に 対する 愛 で 満たす と
i'll fill all the twelve universes that exists in different dimensions with my love for you, Judai.

2- desert dimensions has stars and moons inside it
(the dimension has no name so i call it the desert dimensions)

3- the dark world dimensions has constellations inside it

inconsistencies/stuff that doesn't make sense​

1-neo space is inside the human world and is on Io a moon that orbits jupiter and is obviously isn't a part of the 12 dimensions since it has never been called a part of the 12 dimensions and it was never even called a dimension in general

2-neo space has never been called a dimensions it's always been called "neo supēsu"(meaning neo space in english) it's been called "neo uchu" twice (uchu meaning either space or universe) and it's been called a sub-space once, and it's pretty obvious how ridiculous it is to say that io is a universal space-time instead of just a normal space inside another space
i.e a location within another space

3-the size of the world of darkness:
we all know how darkness absorbed the 12 dimensions but is still planet level in size

the problem with this is that @SomebodyData 's interpretation still doesn't make sense since he's not only ingoring the stars and constellations, his interpretation of the 12 dimensions being moon sized would still make the world of darkness way smaller than the planet which isn't the case since they are stated and shown to be equal

​

the solution to the world of darkness size problem​

since both my and @SomebodyData 's interpretation would still make the world of darkness inconsistent with what's been shown here's the solution

it's fairly simple since it's explained in the show how inside the world of darkness is a place where physical form is not needed and how it's void that will make people live for all eternity
and how once you lose your individuality you'll fully become one with darkness and you will get erased from existence

 

[Firestorm808]

I'm leaning toward the 12 Universes.

 

[Qawsedf234]

So what I'm getting from this is if its 12 different spaces in the same large area or 12 segmented areas of the same larger space.

From a quick read through I'm leaning more towards @SomebodyData's claims. But if we are using it then I could only really see a baseline 2-C rating. Most of these pocket dimensions seem far to small for a proper Tier 2 rating.

 

[Zencha9]

So what I'm getting from this is if its 12 different spaces in the same large area or 12 segmented areas of the same larger space.

From a quick read through I'm leaning more towards @SomebodyData's claims. But if we are using it then I could only really see a baseline 2-C rating. Most of these pocket dimensions seem far to small for a proper Tier 2 rating.

not really they are 12 parallel dimensions
the 12 universes exits in said dimensions
and there's a universes that encompasses said 12 dimensions

Spoiler: translation

じゅ十二にの 次元 に 分かれ て 存在 する 全て の 宇宙 僕 の 十 代 に 対する 愛 で 満たす と
i'll fill all the twelve universes that exists in different dimensions with my love for you, Judai.

 

[Zencha9]

btw @SomebodyData is arguing that the rest of the 11 dimensions are inside the main dimension (human world) which doesn't make sense since the main dimension is one of the 12 dimensions
so it can't encompass itsellf if that makes sense

 

[Zencha9]

@Qawsedf234
also they are not small
only 3 of the 12 dimensions were shown and all of them have moons/stars and constellations and are called universes the only thing that is small is neo space which exists inside the main dimension (the place that has earth)and it's literally just a moon that orbits jupiter (scans , 1 , 2 ) but that doesn't matter since it is never called a dimension let alone being a part of the 12 dimensions