Yu-Gi-Oh! Tiering

[RapidMotorcycle19]

Okay.


I guess this means Dark Magician discussions are over.


Should we resume discussion on 3-A Manga Yugi (Dark side of Dimensions), The tiering for 4kids (Capsule Monsters) Yugi or the various tier 3 and tier 2 feats for Anime yugi?

 

[RapidMotorcycle19]

Wait a damn minute.


LACK OF FEATS?


Yugi created a separate timeline with his deck on GX, used real life DM hax on both the movie and novel of PoL, Has probability manipulation, Prana has been stated to be 3-A and he is inmune to it to a certain degree and Cpasule Monsters has as many feats as a shonen anime.


Sorry, but saying such statement is just plain out wrong.

I tought you were better than this, Ima.

 

[Imaginym]

I don't think that Arigarmy meant that Dark Magician discussions have reached a conclusion, just that those participating have been too worn out, & wish to resume at a later point.

@Arigarmy, if my assumptions about that are incorrect, feel free to tell me.

As for your 2nd post, Rapid, I spoke with regards to what I understand to be applicable feats. Also, a lot of the stuff you mentioned, I still haven't looked into.

Plus, context is everything: "Also, as for statistics, the monsters & the duelists have a lack of feats, & the monsters often lack physicality, as they're usually holographic depictions of their actual selves, which may be of questionable accuracy as to their actual capabilities."

I was speaking in regards to the 2nd series anime overall, & not just Yugi, & to respond to Weekly's question about the complexity of Yugioh tiering.

 

[RapidMotorcycle19]

And of course, adding yugioh upgrades has been quite a mess since ever.

 

[Imaginym]

So, after getting SomebodyData's permissio (Because I don't want to get too off-topic, & he made this thread & is an Administrator), I'm just gonna bring up some likely anime-only scaling that's mostly for the humans.

Note that this doesn't mean I think manga discussion is over; Just that it's a bit postponed with everyone burned out & Data & Kukui having limited internet access.

So....

Small note: I know Kemo's actual name is Saruwatari, but "Kemo" is much shorter. Most of the English names are, & a lot of us know them by those names, so that's what I'll use for now.

First off, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume Tristan & Joey are comparable, given their history together as fighting delinquents.

Episode 8 - Tristan is able to turn Kemo upside down & throw Kemo over his shoulder a horizontal distance of probably at least a foot. Kemo manages to move his body in mid-air, righting himself & landing on his feet.

Kemo then hits Tristan with a jump kick, knocking Tristan flat to the ground for the viewers to see; Until Kemo leaves, Tristan is off-screen & does not get up nor speak until Kemo leaves.

Going by this, Tristan is likely 9-C for lifting a grown man upside down & over his head, & throwing him a short distance. Kemo should be comparable, if not superior to Tristan for making a landing from the throw & flooring him with one attack.

Episode 20 - Kaiba encounters Kemo. He prevents Kemo's gun from firing by jamming the hammer of the gun with a card as Kemo is starting to pull the trigger. When Kemo tries to attack him, Kaiba dodges, winds Kemo with an elbow to the chest, & throws him to the ground. Kemo doesn't manage to right himself, & Kaiba has him take him to Pegasus's castle.

Going by this, Kaiba should be comparable or superior to Kemo, for outmaneuvering him, winding him with a single hit, & is probably 9-C being able to throw a grown man a good distance.

Episode 55 - Tristan punches Joey. This knocks him into the air & back a bit, & Joey ends up on his back on the ground. (The fandub of the scene is because it seems to use the original footage, which is hard to find on Youtube.)

Tristan likely scales to Joey for being able to damage him & knock him back, as well as presumably having fought with/alongside him in the past.

Episode 136 - While possessed by Marik, Tea performs a minor strength feat, grabbing a handlebar, doing a handstand on it, turning around, & leaping above Yami Marik, landing a few feet behind him. (Pardon the foreign dub. Also, music & VAs aside, the scene seems to be identical to the subbed version, feat-wise.) She also dodges his swing of the Millennium Rod in this scene, & survives being knocked to the ground by its telekinesis.

I would attribute the dodge to Marik's reflexes, not Tea's, since it's his mind active, but the strength feat -propelling herself a good distance into the air from a handstand on a handlebar- & surviving a hit from the Millennium Rod should apply to Tea; It's her body, after all.

Because I'm lazy & sleepy, I won't mention the episode numbers for some of this other stuff. Most of it, we all know of anyway, or have calcs for.

Yami Marik has a 9-B feat. The electricity manipulation from that scene might also be worth calc-ing, if it's possible.

The video source for that feat has been taken down, but it should be possible to find elsewhere. Assuming it's physical, I can't think of anyone it scales to. If it's telekinesis, it might scale to whoever's been hit by Marik's Millennium Rod's TK & lived. AFAIK, that's just Tea right now.

At the end of Yugi's duel with Weevil, the train they're on derails & falls off of a cliff. Yugi, Tea & Weevil experience & survive this. It's a 9-B feat, although I think it might not scale to Weevil; He didn't have a soul in his body at the time, & the next time we see him, it's in a hospital at the end of the arc when he has his soul back.

So, IMHO, for all we know, Weevil got all of his bones broken & internal organs ruptured but managed a miraculous recovery because the doctors fixed his soulless body at the hospital & when he got back he was in good condition again.

Likewise, the video source is down for that feat as well.

Nonetheless, the feat scales to Yugi & probably Tea, putting them at 9-B durability if it does.

And given that Joey was able to punch Yugi & knock him back, sending him flying, it's possible this scaling extends to Tristan, Kaiba & maybe Kemo.


Obviously, there's other possibilities; If Marik's AP with the Millennium Rod were to be assumed to be applicable to his clashes with Bakura's Millennium Ring, which could scale to Pegasus. But those scenes are arguably Shadow Games, so it's questionable.


Other neat stuff:

1. Timeaus's dragon form has some good feats in war flashbacks.

2. Joey vs Valon is full of feats. The most important are Joey surviving Rocket Hermos Cannon being used on him -because it scales to him armorless- & maybe Lord of the Red's explosion when it & Armored Valon clashes. Reasoning being Lord of the Red requires using Red Eyes Black Dragon to summon it.

Which means that explosion may provide an indirect means of providing AP for Anime Red Eyes Black Dragon.

If you're all wondering, Valon is probably 10-A or 9-C in base, higher with his armor. Other than that, he's unremarkable, because most of his feats require his armor.

Also, the feat from the end of their Duel requires Joey using one of Valon's cards in a fusion he never uses again, with Hermos -which he loses at the end of the arc- & it scales to Valon & him in an armor he never uses again. From a scaling point, it doesn't change many profiles, & it may be an outlier. From a calculation standpoint, & given that contributing factors to its yield may involve luminosity, wind, & electricity, it would be difficult to calc, if at all.

Hence me not considering that big pillar of light Joey & Valon made very important.


Anyway, thoughts on all this, all? There's probably a bunch of monster scaling I'd wanna get to later, & I definitely wanna check out the manga feats later, so I'll probably continue this later.

 

[RapidMotorcycle19]

Those all are resonable for their base forms, yes.

 

[Arigarmy]

throwing a man makes you 9-C instead of giving you superhuman lifting strength?

 

[Imaginym]

@Arigarmy: It should take great strength to lift a man so that he's upside down & throw him a good distance. Some of that energy should be applicable to Striking Strength. Also:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/C...of_falling_Objects_and_Energy_to_lift_Objects "However, lifting should generally not be used to calculate Attack Potency unless it is a fast, explosive form of lift (for example: snatch, clean-and-jerk, etc.)."

Both Tristan and Kaiba perform their throws fairly quickly. Even if you ignore the throws, Tristan has been shown to be able to damage Joey, & I'd think them often being partners in brawling would mean they're somewhat comparable physically.

And while it doesn't speak that much for his durability, the throw aside, Kaiba was still able to wind Kemo/Saruwatari, whom did knock down Tristan with a single hit & given his history as a "suit" & a large guy/possible bodyguard, I would assume Kemo is at least 10-A, if not 9-C.


Also, Ari, do you have any opinion on scaling REBD to Lord of the Red's explosion feat? The former was required material in the summon of LotR, & comes back to the field when Extinction Fist "defuses" LotR/resummons the material.

I'd presume it'd go something like: Half of the yield of the explosion is Joey's -since it was from a collision with Armored Valon- applicable to Lord of the Red Joey, & since REBD is half of LotR, half of that goes to REBD. Possibly minus Joey's AP from the yield when determining REBD's AP for this.

 

[RapidMotorcycle19]

Now, does anyone have any idea to calc any monsters that are not Blue Eyes or Infinite Obelisk?

 

[Imaginym]

@Rapid: As I mentioned above, Orichalcos Giygas, & Timeaus have feats in the Orichalcos arc, as well as several monsters in the Battle for Atlantis. Also, card lore is present for Normal Monsters in the Japanese anime which seems to match the IRL cards, so there could be feats there.

Because it was brought up elsewhere in a related thread....

Monsters being comparable to Egyptian Gods is laughable. No individual monster beat them in a straight fight, most monsters lack better feats, LET ALONE anything near 5-A & stuff like Red Eyes Black Dragon & IIRC, Dark Magician, has gotten rekt by things the Gods are comparable to. Yugi's whole deck being 5-A is... unprecedented, put briefly.

Infinite Obelisk is highly questionable. It uses it in Kaiba vs KC DuelTek 2000, IIRC, & against Yami Marik.

Thing is, though: All 3 Egyptian Gods have variable ATK points & feats in & out of duels. All 3 have killed duelists during the making of their cards.

Ra killed duelists & even called down lightning on duelists for playing counterfeits of it, has created huge amounts of fire, like when it hit Joey & destroyed Gilford the Lightning, despite having 0 ATK; If ATK correlates to AP, Ra shouldn't have made fire.

There's also Slifer, who summons a storm & then later splits clouds, & then its attack that missed blackening clouds visible from across the island with electricity that spreads out; I'm not quite sure that's consistent AP, yet it had the same AP for all those feats.

And when Obelisk went Infinite ATK, the actual yield of the feats/damage caused was less than MANY of Obelisk's other feats, despite supposedly having infinite force.


And especially in the anime, infinite ATK is not a basis for infinite AP when we consider Leviathan. Leviathan went into slumber after the Battle of Atlantis for 10,000 years & Timeaus, who it battled certainly survived, albeit getting sealed away.

Over the next 10,000 years, Leviathan then got tons of human souls, monster souls, got power from the darkness in peoples' hearts & just before its re-awakening, absorbed the power of the Egyptian God Cards to the point they were called "powerless" when retrieved.... it was even eating stars!

Heck, when Yugi & co. fought it after the duel with Dartz, a big factor was winning by getting darkness out of peoples' hearts to weaken Leviathan; Infinity minus or divided by finite numbers is still infinite.

Leviathan definitely has limits & was constantly getting its power from other sources. Definitely not infinite in power. Vastly above everything else, though.

The loop the Knights of Destiny used consisted of trading an attack between Critias & Hermos, each completion of the loop tripling Hermos's initial 2800 ATK. 2800 times 3 a bunch of times will never reach infinity.

Especially when you consider they had a finite timeframe before they actually fused and that fusion had their total ATK when they were fused; Which was still confined to a finite number.

It was literally impossible for them to get to infinity. No matter what symbols you saw in the duel.

But okay, they beat Leviathan -who we can be sure isn't infinite given the innately finite nature of its power sources- & in the duel....


Except again, Leviathan is vastly above the Knights of Destiny. It's not even funny.

1. Battle for Atlantis: Leviathan's armies vs Timeaus, & a bunch of other monsters, possibly including Hermos & Critias. Dragon-Timeaus gets grounded after Dartz charges a sword with leviathan & hits it in the eye. Beam clash occurs, screen fades out of flashback.

Timeaus didn't win that, & it was sealed later, while Leviathan, even dormant, was still able to help & empower Dartz.

2. Beginning of Orichalcos/Doma arc: Dragon-Timeaus & an eye in the sky of Leviathan clash with, IIRC, tornados or the like. This deters Leviathan, but this was a Leviathan that had just barely begun awakening; It's unclear if it even had started absorbing the power of the Egyptian Gods at that time.

3. In the duel, Leviathan outclasses the KoD & they only win via a loop that DOESN'T EVEN WORK MATHEMATICALLY. Let alone a fusion based on the result of that loop.

4. Post-duel with Dartz, Yugi uses Multiply on Timeaus. Unclear how many it made, but dub said 10,000. All of them rush Leviathan, & IIRC, exploding with a whole army of other monsters from the Duel Spirit World in the battle against Leviathan. It hardly makes a dent.

5. After Leviathan wins a beam clash with Obelisk, Slifer & Ra, then loses after being weakened from the removal of darkness in peoples' hearts, it gets its physical form destroyed... but its spirit remains because Atem still has darkness in his heart.

6. Atem & Dartz are face to face.... Not a duel this time. Knight-Timeaus's spirit leaps out of Yugi's Duel Disk at Leviathan... & gets smacked down to the ground. You know, by Leviathan's spirit, its physical form, & with barely any power left.


SCALING THE KNIGHTS OF DESTINY TO LEVIATHAN IS A RIDICULOUS JOKE.

In all their clashes EXCEPT that fallacious loop of "finite number times 3 several times to surpass infinity then fuse" Atem used in the duel Atem to win, the Knights of Destiny AT BEST, achieve draws with tons of help, or match or lose to forms of Leviathan that are dormant & have WAY less power.

Not to mention, Leviathan has way better feats than any of the Knights.

The KoDs at best make big explosions with their breath attacks, destroying some of the land & armies of Orichalcos Soldiers, or with Timeaus shoot tornado breath. Get all 3 of them together & they can carry a plane!

Leviathan powers the Orichalcos, which distorts huge clouds when the Seal of the Orichalcos descends, allows for calling down lightning, solo'd an army of monsters, AT LEAST matched Timeaus's breath attack when Timeaus had an army helping it, near awakening was eating stars, made tidal waves, huge tornados, made a 5-C storm, & throughout the arc had absorbed most of the Egyptian God Cards' power.

Leviathan has way better feats.

It's a huge outlier for them to win, & how they win is based on PIS. 3-A Knights of Destiny my foot.

 

[RapidMotorcycle19]

Oh boy that is long.

I tought we already talked about most of this, but fine, FINE.

Ill reply to this monstrosity eventually.

Ima, i tought we were over this. But Aparently we werent.


Prepare yourself.

 

[Asuka_the_Demonic_Empress]

I dont know much about Yugioh like you guys do, but Kaiba did blow up an entire Island with prep on Season 3.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY08qfh0Wag

 

[SomebodyData]

I don't remember if he did it with prep or he hired people to prepare the islands to explode.

I guess this counts as a necro tho?