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Yukari upgrade

I agree with this decision.

Firstly, Yukari Yakumo is the only Phantasm Stage Character of the entire Touhou Series.

Every single Touhou Game features 6 Stages and an Extra Stage, with the sole exception of Touhou 7: Perfect Cherry Blossom, where Yukari Yakumo is the Boss of a secret 8th Stage.

Secondly, then nature of her Reality Warping powers and her status In-Canon as one of the most, if not the most powerful Youkai should do her credit. It is ridiculous to think that a Stage 6 character would be more powerful than her.

Thirdly, Yukari isn't equal to Suika. One needs to understand that Yukari is the type of character who is very laid back and casual about everything. And furthermore, Yukari did fight Suika, this was the result:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xdr2Cs4FGQ (17:40 Fight Starts, 22:30 fight ends)

Neither were serious, it was a sparring match. However, Suika's sprite is bruised after the fight, so there's that.

Also, Yukari has used her Boundary Manipulation to make it so that it was night and day at the same time.

Edit: Other things.

Here we have this quote:

"I'm a youkai with the ability to control the boundaries between any and all things. This power allows me to remove the boundary between anything: Gensokyo and the outside world, the worlds of the living and the dead, humans and youkai, even day and night."
 
Also, kinda off topic, but why is Gensokyo regarded as an Island / Country sized area:

It is exists in it's own reality. It's got it's own day and night cycle, with the Earth's Sun and Moon, which are connected to Gensokyo as well through magic / reality warping stuff, affecting it no differently than Earth. It's got seasons just like Earth as well.
 
Not sure, but it's likely she's at least 4-C imo.

That constellation shit was kinda vague really, but it's still implied and should be considered as a possibility.
 
Also, in the Extra Stage of Touhou 8, Mokou implies that Reimu and Yukari are the strongest people Kaguya could have send to stop her. But it's also vague.

Edit: Looking at Shinki's profile, it seems we have ranked Touhou characters at 4-B for similarly vague reasons. Huh.
 
Not much is vague about shinkis ranking...

On gensokyo size: Reason is that lore wise gensokyo was created by sealing of a region of japan, hence it can logically not be bigger than japan itself. Forthermore it has no ocean which also limits its size.

I don't think yukari scales to anyone particulary. When it comes to touhou there just isn't that clear of a powerranking, so it would just be yukari IMO.

That aside I don't think that is upgrade worthy. The quote:

" Most likely, she's the one who came with the names of the constellations written on the armillary sphere. In other words, I think she's the one that made the constellations."

Constellations are nothing but forms made up of stars. I am pretty sure what is meant here is that yukari was the one that basically looked at the stars and said that they group together into some sort of picture. It is not meant that she created the stars themself.
 
@DT

You are ignoring all the points that make Yukari being Billions of Times weaker than Junko ridiculous.

And also ignoring the feat of making it be night and day at the same time.
 
It is also ignoring how Mokou implies that Reimu + Yukari > Eirin during the Extra stage of Touhou 8, or how Hieda no Akyuu, one of the smartest characters in Touhou, believes Yukari to be capable of twisting the fabric of existence.

There are far more evidence pointing at Yukari being higher than what we currently rate her at than the contrary.
 
How exactly do you plan to quantify making it night and day at the same time per border manipulation?

To your reason:

1. No solid proof for anything. Just speculation based on game design.

2. Canonly the moon guys are stronger than the youkais of gensokyo. Or to be specific the watatsuki sisters are and junko is the enemy of them. It is reasonable that junko is comparable to people more powerful than yukari.

3. Yukari being more powerful than suika or not holds no relevance in the scaling to anything higher than suika.

So I don't see any solid arguement for sclaing her to junko.
 
It is not speculation based on game design. Yukari was intended to be viewed as a big deal among other characters, and that is reflected within the Game design. Ignoring that would be like setting a Mid-Game Boss at a higher Tier than the Final Boss, simply because the later lacks feats.

Secondly, it is consistently implied across the seires that it was Yukari's intention to lose the Lunar War. If it was ZUNs intention to be clear about Yukari being weaker than the Lunarians, there would be no implying otherwise.

5-C Yukari is a ridiculous lowball.
 
I see absolutely no proof for yukari above lunarians. The statement about watatsuki sisters being more powerful is not related to the lunar war. Just because yukari has intended to loose the war doesn't imply that she could have won it. Word of ZUN goes above your speculation.

Give me any solid reason for yukari being above Junko specifically, except "she is protrait as powerful".
 
Give me a reason for Yukari to be Billions of time weaker than Junko, of Eirin for that matter. Or are you forgetting that Mokou implies that Yukari + Reimu are stronger than Eirin?

Yukari being Billions of Times weaker than the Lunarians is a laughable downplay.
 
Lunarians as far as I remember rely on Divine Spirits to empower them up. Their own power level is not really high. And I kind of do not see anything about Yukari that put them on the same level as Lunarians. Heck, even creation of Gensoukyou Dai Kekkai was not possible for her.
 
It was clearly stated that Yakumo clan had to co-op with Hakurei clan to create Dai Kekkai and both thier powers is needed to maintain it.
 
Power gaps in fiction can be ridiculously large. What is billion times by our numbers are things that can be overcome by a week of intense training in some fictions.

Generally the "not that much weaker argument" holds no meaning because of that. You need a reason for comparability else the gap can be pretty much everything.

In other words I don't even need to proof anything. Characters are only ranked as high as feats or scaling to weaker/about even characters implies.

Edit: Another thing to consider is that a large margin of her power is hax. Since AP is brute force that in itself makes it already rather difficult.
 
Assumtions alone could lead to very strange power levels... Solar System Alice Margatroid is one of them.
 
Reminder that Yukari deals with problems by manipulating others to act to resolve things for her. She seems to rarely act directly except in particularly egregious situations. In all cases, she rarely lets anyone know what her true aims or goals are, and sometimes these goals are extremely abstract. Yukari has a well-deserved reputation of being fickle, whimsical, and lying often, and thus many characters in Gensokyo dislike her.

Yukari hides her maximum powerlevel really well.

From Cage in Lunatic Runagate.


ÒÇîÞ▓┤µû╣ÒééµòàÚâÀÒéÆÚøóÒéîÒüªÕìâõ¢òþÖ¥Õ╣┤ÒüïÒÇéÒüØÒéìÒüØÒéìµ£øÚâÀÒü«Õ┐ÁÒü½ÚºåÒéëÒéîÒéïÚáâÒüáÒéìÒüåÒü¿µÇØÒüäÒü¥ÒüùÒüªÒÇüµ£êÒü«Úâ¢ÒéÆÒéñÒâíÒâ╝Òé©ÒüùÒüƒÒüèÚàÆÒü«Õ©¡ÒéÆþö¿µäÅÞç┤ÒüùÒü¥ÒüùÒüƒÒÇì

"It must have been centuries since you left your hometown. I thought you were becoming distraught with homesickness, so I had some sake from the Lunar Capital prepared for you."

þ┤½Òü»Òü½ÒéäÒéèÒü¿þ¼æÒüúÒüƒÒÇé

Yukari grinned.

ÒüØÒü«þ¼æÚíöÒü»µ░©þÉ│Òü«Õ┐âÒü«ÕÑѵÀ▒ÒüÅÒü½Õê╗Òü¥ÒéîÒÇüÕ┐ÿÒéîÒéïõ║ïÒü«Õç║µØÑÒü¬Òüäõ©ìµ░ùÕæ│ÒüòÒéÆÒééÒüƒÒéëÒüùÒüƒÒÇ鵡╗Òü¼õ║ïÒü«Òü¬ÒüäÞÇàÒü©õ©ÄÒüêÒéïÒÇüþöƒÒüìÒéïõ║ïÒéƵäÅÕæ│ÒüÖÒéïµé®Òü┐ÒÇ鵡úõ¢ôÒü«ÕêñÒéëÒü¬ÒüäÞÇàÒü©Òü«µüɵÇûÒÇé

That ominous smile left a deep scar in her mind, something she would never be able to forget. To make those who cannot die question the meaning of living. To make them fear the unknown, what they cannot understand.
Probably she can be scaled to around Eirin and Watatsuki sisters.
 
^ This is part of my argument. We really don't know Yukari's power level, and I find giving her a clear Tier limit to be highly problematic.

Instead of at "At least 5-C" (Since the reasoning for that is flawed as well) I'd prefer something like

"Unknown. At least 5-C / Low 5-B (Since she is stronger than Suika), likely higher"
 
We do not know many power levels. Making tiers based on speculations is kind of really bad idea. And it was never directly hinted that Yukari is stronger than Suika in any direct fight.
 
It is made clear that Yukari is one of the strongest, if not the strongest Youkai in Gensokyo. She never fights with any semblamce of seriousness and she has defeated Suika in Touhou 7.5

Ranking her as equal to Suika would be ignoring her lore and character.
 
Suika does not even fight seriously during... Well, during any title we see her.

Ranking Yukari above Suika is making assumption and this can increase shitstorm for admins later... If one character tiered like this... Why others can't?
 
I think it would be better to keep Yukari at her current powerlevel. The current strongest character in Touhou is Hecatia afterall. Taken somewhere:

Here are some of the information from LoLK interview

1. ZUN thinks the appearance of Yukari in Marisa's ending is the beginning.

2. Lunar Capital is based on Takama-ga-hara(Ú½ÿÕñ®Õă). There are other people like Chang'e and Lord Tsukuyomi, some of them are even greater than Tsukuyomi and there are beings greater than divine spirits. But ZUN has no intention to make those beings appear. (damn, people greater than lord of Lunar Capital)

3. Eirin's status in Lunar Capital is not very high. (one of the founders and sages in Lunar Capital, not very high in status, what kind of people are higher than Eirin)

4. Kishin is stronger than those fairies outside, but she neither can't go nor see what's out there, so she didn't know how strong enemy is.

5. Clownpiece changed her clothes after she saw the flag on the moon.

6. The true power of Urban Legend is not creating something out of nothing, it's rewriting the history. ( i have no idea what this means)

7. The story is just venting. Neither moving to Gensokyo nor invading Lunar Capital is serious (typical Touhou incident once again)

8. If Lunar Capital were moving to Gensokyo seriously, people in Gensokyo would disappeared and they won't even notice it. (how godly is Lunar Ca....oh wait, Lunarians ARE gods)

9. Hecatia is a being beyond Gensokyo and Lunar Capital, of course is greater than Eiki. (4chan power-level-argumen-er intensifies)

10. There are many more stuffs about hell. Eiki is just a judge from an organization created by oni from hell. (plz don't kill me if i translated this sentence wrong) And Reimu's position is not human sided, her job is just to protect Gensokyo's balance, protect balance between humans and youkais, and protects the barrier.

11. Hecatia's different colors have different personality. (fandom intensifies)

12. ZUN thinks Hecatia changes her cloth color AS her hair color changes.

13. The words on her clothes were originally "I (heart) Hell" instead of "Welcome (heart) hell". But he thinks this is too far so he changes it.

14. Hecatia is supposed to be a serious character, but ZUN wants to make her "serious but with weird outfit".

15. Gensokyo is part of the Spirit World. Every worlds that we don't understand is part of the Spirit World.
 
I'm just saying that Yukari's Tier is a massive lowball.

It's true that most of my arguments are due to implied notions and vague quotes, but that alone does not make them invalid;
 
Akyuu said that one can't always trust Yukari's word, and that Yukari's logic isn't the same as a humans. Maybe Yukari is really lying that she is weaker than Toyohime but we really need ZUN to elaborate about Yukari's standing with the current LoLK material.
 
Eh, I think a Likely higher could work but jumping to Star level may be a bit much.

Not only that but Yukari actually uses hax more than she uses good ol' AP.
 
"At least 5-C. Likely higher" seems good to me.
 
Tenshi would probably have to be upgraded in that case, then.
 
Found it!

Yukari directly said to Iku that she wanted to kill Tenshi. Additionaly she was extremely angry with Tenshi and I could assume that she really wanted to kill the annoying Celestial. Well, Yukari failed... So Tenshi has durability comparable to Yukari's AP. Other cast of SWR should probably go up in AP to keep up too. Maybe Low 6-C?
 
^Don't know though, even if she's that angry, the fight is still in the range of Danmaku, which mean it's not serious in the first place. Beside, i doubt she's the type that would be that careless to annouce her true power to the entire gensokyo like that.

And isn't there's a scene in 7.5 that show a stage where day and night exist together, seperate by a single line?

Even so though, i think it's a bit hype to upgrade her power to that level.
 
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