Zenless Zone Zero Discussion Thread

[BiggestOpp]

I'm not the biggest fan of using gameplay to scale characters so i'd probably just scale them to whatever they've shown or are stated to be relative to. But for starters, factions like Stars of Lyra and PubSec would prob end up in 9-B just fine thanks to the references for common feats page in the wiki i believe. PubSec and Stars of Lyra would scale above weak ethereals which can destroy doors (Hati ethereals) and wooden crates (Faun and Tyrfing. This one also includes gameplay iirc though but it's supportive so who cares), both 9-B. Also Evelyn beating up a machine so that also counts lol. I'd prefer this over them being 9-A (or higher) solely because they can, idk, keep up against the DEB or other boss in-game or something. But that's just my opinion.
(Also the DEB being 8-C despite it having like, three consistently 9-A calcs feels oddly wrong but, Anby fought it so ig it's fine XD)

While we at it can we PLEASE limit what gameplay exclusive abilities should be applied to profiles?
Astra having invincibility is just wrong, straight up.
Characters having their respective elements is fine, these are shown in lore, but kit specific details? What? If these are things they can’t actually use in lore and are just there for gameplay and gameplay only, I don’t think we should be applying them. Same with vital view that’s just bs.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

He pet her so hard it changed artstyles...

 

[Sooshirohl]

While we at it can we PLEASE limit what gameplay exclusive abilities should be applied to profiles?
Astra having invincibility is just wrong, straight up.
Characters having their respective elements is fine, these are shown in lore, but kit specific details? What? If these are things they can’t actually use in lore and are just there for gameplay and gameplay only, I don’t think we should be applying them. Same with vital view that’s just bs.

the main reason why we have stuff like mindscape cinemas and w-engine effects on the character pages is because there's various other pages on the wiki that take into account gameplay stat boosts like that. if they're really that big of an issue though, i don't mind taking them out, to be honest i don't reaaally think most of them are substantial enough to really affect a majority of versus matchups anyways (other than vital view)

that'd require a CRT and a pretty big overhaul of all the pre-existing pages we have though, since they're on every single character page we have atm

 

[PedjaTarzan]

not accepting characters gameplay abilities as real ones kill genuine reason to powerscale video games

 

[Naito-desu]

I really do not agree with just going off "lore", the standard is too strict and goes counter to what's already precedent for other video games. You can't powerscale video games that purely go off gameplay with very little lore, and making the gameplay abilities an exception for these games is just an unfair and arbitrary distinction. I don't agree at all with your viewpoint on this, and will continue to argue that your viewpoint of reliance on lore is too strict.

Many calculations and abilities logged onto this site are genuinely gameplay abilities incorporated as actual abilities, and while whataboutism doesn't necessarily absolve us, it does create precedent, and continued precedent means that it's accepted and allowed, even under scrutiny of moderation. There's a difference between site standards and your standards, and what we're seeing is a massive disconnect between them.

 

[BiggestOpp]

the main reason why we have stuff like mindscape cinemas and w-engine effects on the character pages is because there's various other pages on the wiki that take into account gameplay stat boosts like that. if they're really that big of an issue though, i don't mind taking them out, to be honest i don't reaaally think most of them are substantial enough to really affect a majority of versus matchups anyways (other than vital view)

On those other pages, I looked at Kratos specifically because his game style is closer to ZZZ than something like Pokémon, those specific abilities given to them are truly based in lore. There’s either novels that specifically say he can do such with, statements that support them. The abilities sometimes come with weapons that he specifically finds or is quested to find. With him documenting a lot of these items in his databank.
There’s a lot more to it but for a lot of those games, the abilities are either based on lore or all combat is game related, meaning there’s no subsequent lore behind it, like the older Pokémon games.

If the majority believe that these should stay regardless of them being gameplay related, sure, whatever. I just want to add my 2cent in.

 

[BiggestOpp]

I’d also like to link this.

Game Mechanics

Game Mechanics refers to the abilities shown in games (usually video games) that are determined by the rules of the game (examples include hit points, levels, statistics, world map crossing in seconds outside of cinematics, etcetera) and are not necessarily indicative of a character's or...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[PedjaTarzan]

I’d also like to link this.

Game Mechanics

Game Mechanics refers to the abilities shown in games (usually video games) that are determined by the rules of the game (examples include hit points, levels, statistics, world map crossing in seconds outside of cinematics, etcetera) and are not necessarily indicative of a character's or...

vsbattles.fandom.com

and it just counts for this:

(usually video games) that are determined by the rules of the game (examples include hit points, levels, statistics, world map crossing in seconds outside of cinematics, etcetera) and are not necessarily indicative of a character's or entity's actual abilities.

so if we really use this? i can only see characters constellations (idk how zzz calls it) and w-engine being gone. and that vital view. everything else would stay since its part of characters own set of powers

 

[ItzLivyx]

I just looked at Harumasa's profile and, if we were to take out all gameplay-related abilities, I think he'd only have like 3 or 4 abilities in his P&A list lmao
Some of these agents really need these, they are kinda haxless.. otherwise
We absoltely keeping these in

 

[Naito-desu]

Mindscapes and W-Engine stuff would likely have to go since the game copy-paste description would mistakently have one think these in-game values would carry on to characters (so I guess that just leaves the W-Engine weapon descriptions). But things part of a base kit wouldn't because characters do this in combat context.

 

[Sooshirohl]

to be fair, w-engines do improve character performance in-lore, as stated by anby, so at the very least we could maybe keep minor stats amp for them, plus whatever w-engine descriptions certain characters have like billy's trajectory calculating and ellen's flash freezing

i think at least keeping the status effect inducements are also fine, they tie into the character's elemental manip in lore. personally if we were to take stuff out i'd just take out the mindscape, core passive and w-engine stat boosts and vital view, which means most characters would be losing out on their damage boost/stats reduction, as well as other stuff like resistance negation and damage reduction

if we're gonna completely overhaul the currently existing profiles by removing the gameplay abilities, i think we should probably come to a consensus on what we keep and what we remove so we can go forward with a proper CRT

 

[PedjaTarzan]

to be fair, w-engines do improve character performance in-lore, as stated by anby, so at the very least we could maybe keep minor stats amp for them, plus whatever w-engine descriptions certain characters have like billy's trajectory calculating and ellen's flash freezing

i think at least keeping the status effect inducements are also fine, they tie into the character's elemental manip in lore. personally if we were to take stuff out i'd just take out the mindscape, core passive and w-engine stat boosts and vital view, which means most characters would be losing out on their damage boost/stats reduction, as well as other stuff like resistance negation and damage reduction

if we're gonna completely overhaul the currently existing profiles by removing the gameplay abilities, i think we should probably come to a consensus on what we keep and what we remove so we can go forward with a proper CRT

if W engines actually buff characters in lore then everything about w engine stuff should be kept
Mindscape is like constellations in genshin right? yea that should be gone bro like indexing 1000$ worth of amp is so funny
for vital view if it has any mention of it in lore or shown in cutscenes you can keep that too
I would honestly keep everything except from mindscape in pages unless lore contradics it

 

[Naito-desu]

I was more talking stats of W-Engine, item descriptions, and described amps should be fine. Stuff like ATK% boosts would have to go by default.

Mindscapes probably should go. For Vital View, Billy did do Bullet Time in one cutscene, but that was kinda iffy.

 

[PedjaTarzan]

Mindscapes probably should go. For Vital View, Billy did do Bullet Time in one cutscene, but that was kinda iffy.

if possible you can keep it as “possibly”

 

[Sooshirohl]

so just going off this conversation, seems like the general consensus as of now between a lot of us is :

mindscape/core passive abilities : cut
w-engines : keep abilities from the weapon descriptions, maybe keep limited statistics amp, cut everything else
vital view : should probably get cut from most characters, but maybe a possibly for billy

i still think the status effect inducements are fine, as again, they tie into the in-lore elements characters utilize in their attacks

 

[Infinity_Dragon]

I still think the status effect inducements are fine, as again, they tie into the in-lore elements characters utilize in their attacks

Status effect inducement is fine given we got Yanagi flat out stating in voice dialogue to inflict Disorder on Bringer to stop his Ether Activity from further increasing

 

[BiggestOpp]

Status effect inducement is fine given we got Yanagi flat out stating in voice dialogue to inflict Disorder on Bringer to stop his Ether Activity from further increasing

That’s just her describing her gameplay, it was her featured patch and she was just explaining the way to use her. I don’t think we should count this, especially considering it was the only time it’s ever mentioned in dialogue.

 

[Infinity_Dragon]

That’s just her describing her gameplay, it was her featured patch and she was just explaining the way to use her. I don’t think we should count this, especially considering it was the only time it’s ever mentioned in dialogue.

What? it wasn’t a tutorial dialogue but follow up dialogue to stop a character (Bringer) from further increasing his Ether Activity

If they hit you with a tutorial prompt instead then ya, but she flat out mentions to do so.

 

[ItzLivyx]

So with all this talk about lore and the discussed P&A changes, i decided to experiment a bit with our subjects: Evelina y Astrania
Done a bit quickly but.. meh

 

[BiggestOpp]

so just going off this conversation, seems like the general consensus as of now between a lot of us is :

mindscape/core passive abilities : cut
w-engines : keep abilities from the weapon descriptions, maybe keep limited statistics amp, cut everything else
vital view : should probably get cut from most characters, but maybe a possibly for billy

i still think the status effect inducements are fine, as again, they tie into the in-lore elements characters utilize in their attacks

Totally agree besides status effect inducements, there’s a very select few characters who actually make use of their elements. Unless you guys think we should make an anomaly page and someone implement it?

 

[BiggestOpp]

What? it wasn’t a tutorial dialogue but follow up dialogue to stop a character (Bringer) from further increasing his Ether Activity

If they hit you with a tutorial prompt instead then ya, but she flat out mentions to do so.

I thought this was during her main patch (in the VR world) if this is during Bringer’s patch then my point is somewhat stronger the boss mechanics wants you to inflict disorders on the boss to gain buffs, I think it was just their way of telling you to inflict disorders, especially considering that the trial team including Yanagi (idk if Miyabi was on the team or not). This is the only time this is ever mentioned in dialogue as I mentioned earlier.

 

[BiggestOpp]

So with all this talk about lore and the discussed P&A changes, i decided to experiment a bit with our subjects: Evelina y Astrania
Done a bit quickly but.. meh

For Eve, no chain scaling from other Agent’s speeds that she hasn’t shown comparability to, not even a possibility, unless there’s something depicting her relativity.
That affects the hypersonic scaling and scaling to Butcher via in game parrying is going away.
The only person scaling to Butcher’s Class M feat is Anby and people who scale above her (section 6)

Astra should have NO hypersonic scaling. She like, on panel can’t dodge bullets. Healing is a no go, she couldn’t heal Eve after she took a bullet for her.

 

[Infinity_Dragon]

Also wanna mention that the Status Effect Inducement and Disorder, as well as Decibels, is acknowledged in a non tutorial text inthe Investigator Training Course, in the same category (Knowledge Theory Course) as lore information on Great Hollows and Doppelgangers

 

[BiggestOpp]

Also wanna mention that the Status Effect Inducement and Disorder, as well as Decibels, is acknowledged in a non tutorial text inthe Investigator Training Course, in the same category (Knowledge Theory Course) as lore information on Great Hollows and Doppelgangers

Scan?

 

[Sooshirohl]

Totally agree besides status effect inducements, there’s a very select few characters who actually make use of their elements

i guess if other people agree we can push it but this feels a bit overly strict to me, we're already discussing chopping off every other game-related mechanic on most character's profiles, i feel like at the very least keeping the inducements is fine. they're just byproducts of the elements a majority of characters use (burn being the result of burning enemies, shock being the result of electrifying enemies, etc.) and we still see certain characters utilizing said effects in combat (burnice burning ethereals, miyabi flash freezing enemies, etc etc.)

worst comes to worst if you want to be particular about it i guess you could go about it in a case-by-case basis and only give it to characters that have actively shown usage of their elements in cutscenes but again, that just personally feels a bit strict to me when we're already chopping out a good portion of the stuff on everyone's profiles

 

[Naito-desu]

Worth noting that only what I've said demonstrates as far as I'll go in terms of abilities I'm on board with removing. This means Mindscapes and W-Engine stats. The other ones, I will actively oppose in any future CRT that in any way attempts to adhere to the lore stickler position that's being proposed.

 

[Infinity_Dragon]

Same category as Hollow and Doppelganger info, even stated what are not Attribute Anomalies

 

[BiggestOpp]

yap

I should note that my intention isn’t to attempt to nerf everything into the ground for the fun of it, I just wish to make everything as accurate as possible within the confines of the rules.
If the majority agrees that anomaly induced effects should remain then I won’t try to oppose it, but only if there’s no true basis aside from gameplay diversity, and the only agreement is due to the need for the characters to have abilities for the sake of it, ima argue against it.
Currently I’m searching through threads discussing this topic and seeing how the community addresses this topic.
From what I’ve seen though, many agree that status induced effects through the means of special abilities acknowledged in lore/through the use of items that are actually acknowledged outside of strict gameplay seem to be acceptable.

 

[BiggestOpp]

Same category as Hollow and Doppelganger info, even stated what are not Attribute Anomalies

I agree with anomaly status then. Someone should start making an anomaly page for the verse.
Edit: lore accurate disorder

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I should note that my intention isn’t to attempt to nerf everything into the ground for the fun of it, I just wish to make everything as accurate as possible within the confines of the rules

Your PFP doesn't help too (praying for ZZZ downplay fr fr#runs away)

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

But jackass (lel) aside, this is why I didn't straight went for making a matchup for ZZZ chars ATM, some of the profiles are a bit iffy and need more of tweaking

 

[Naito-desu]

We should hold ourselves to a similar standard as other Hoyo games.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

We should hold ourselves to a similar standard as other Hoyo games.

Seems like the original contents for the upcoming big CRT for ZZZ are now changed and longer due of the new info and debates we have here lel

 

[ItzLivyx]

Woah upcoming BIG crt? we finally getting ftl ratings?

 

[Sooshirohl]

I agree with anomaly status then. Someone should start making an anomaly page for the verse.
Edit: lore accurate disorder

ZZZ : Anomaly and Disorder Overview

vsbattles.fandom.com

went ahead and made an anomaly/disorder page just to clarify more stuff about it. any thoughts?

 

[BiggestOpp]

ZZZ : Anomaly and Disorder Overview

vsbattles.fandom.com

went ahead and made an anomaly/disorder page just to clarify more stuff about it. any thoughts?

“Ether : Ether's anomaly status is Corruption.Alongside the various other negative effects Ether Corruption can induce, as highlighted by Naito's blog, the Corruption effect can cause enemies to suffer additional Ether damage when attacked for a set amount of time. Additionally, inflicting Corruption on enemies weak to Ether damage can also momentarily stun them, interrupting their actions.”
“
While the five aforementioned element attributes are the main, core elements within the world of Zenless Zone Zero, currently, there exist two (technically three) unique elements, designated to the current strongest characters.

Hoshimi Miyabi has access to the element attribute of Frost, which is a subset of Ice. When Miyabi deals Frost damage against enemies, she inflicts them with Foxfire, causing them to take more damage while also increasing the rate at which she can apply her anomalies. The Frost effect will also inflict Ice's anomaly statuses of Freeze, Shatter, and Frostbite when enough damage is dealt.

Yixuan has access to the element attribute of Auric Ink, which is a subset of Ether. Auric Ink functions similarly to the standard attribute of Ether, also inflicting Corruption much like it's regular counterpart.

It's worth noting that the Frost and Auric Ink effects of Miyabi and Yixuan respectively are both considered separate anomaly attributes from their standard Ice and Ether counterparts. This means that Miyabi can deal Ice and Frost damage simultaneously, while Yixuan can deal Ether and Auric Ink damage simultaneously, resulting in both characters being able to inflict the Disorder effect on their own without the need of an additional partner with a separate element attribute.”

only things I have a problem with, will elaborate later.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

But jackass (lel) aside, this is why I didn't straight went for making a matchup for ZZZ chars ATM, some of the profiles are a bit iffy and need more of tweaking

And then I submitted Yixuan in this tourney lmao: https://vsbattles.com/threads/u-a-sports-festival-final-event-but-its-an-8-a-tournament-2-16.186327/

If you guys are interested, also might as well submit Miyabi in that tourney if you guys want lel

 

[BiggestOpp]

I blogged my Miyabi calc, https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:BiggestOpp/Miyabi_MIGHT_be_the_approaching_storm

 

[Naito-desu]

I'll check it out when I have the time

 

[Naito-desu]

I did have that impression about the arrows, yeah, yours should be fine then. I'll do my own rendition with the proper measurement and post it and have it eval'd

Submitted the blog, and ngl, we had to knock it down a bit because Ethereal cores are actually pretty small (13.556 cm roughly), so it gets downgraded from baseline Town level to Small Town level