Zeno's existence erasure resistance removal

[Ultimuru]

Hi, this is my first CRT, so please try to be gentle. It's a very minor CRT which not influences where character scales.

Currently in Zeno's profile there is existence erasure listed in his resistances. The justification for it is:

Existence Erasure, Soul Destruction & Space-Time Erasure (History; Survived his own omnidirectional blast that erased Future Trunks' world from existence, which significantly upscales from Hakai, a technique capable of completely erasing a person’s soul without any means of returning to the other world.)

My problem with that justification is Zeno surviving his own ability.

First of all, that "blast" coming from Zeno's hands doesn't really seem to hold any meaning, other than visual effects. I can't find any statements describing it as something dangerous. That spreading white beam of light is simply an effect, which is always present when Zeno uses his ability. It also doesn't have to hit anything as Zeno can erase universes on distance while being outside of them.

It's never stated that light effect on Zeno's hands has any deeper meaning. Also Zeno has shown that he can pick the specific target and erase only this, without affecting anything around. Just like he erased only Frost. So his "survival" of own ability also doesn't make any sense, as Zamasu (aka entire universe) was his target. Therefore Zeno was unaffected.

So I think we should remove existence erasure resistance.

AGREE: Hecky2222 (representative of Just a Random Butler), Ferno1234, MetaChronos, TheGreatJedi13

NEUTRAL:

DISAGREE: RoninSlayer200, CryoTheMayo, TiltedFN, LuffyRuffy46307, Gamin_Yoon23, Killerdrone123, Shar122, Gp972, Pepsimanslover, Qawsedf234, Vietthai96, DarkDragonMedeus, UnoRebaixadO, AwkguyDB, Mbpoops, CelestialVortex01, Lort15

 

[Hecky2222]

Seems like straightforward. Do we have exact proof he targeted himself? If no, I think I agree with thread

 

[Ultimuru]

Seems like straightforward. Do we have exact proof he targeted himself? If no, I think I agree with thread

His target was strictly Infinite Zamasu. Which we can see when his face in present disappeared from the time rift and closed the rift itself.

 

[Just a Random Butler]

FRA through @Hecky2222.

He will act on my behalf as my representative.

 

[RoninSlayer200]

I mean this doesn't make sense IMO

Zeno targets everything, the whole timeline itself

Zeno exists inside the timeline, and he specifically targets the entire space around him. He doesn't need to target himself because his EE would already target him, you know cosmology nukes works like that.

Calling "blast" not having any meaning is silly because he directly uses it for erasure, what do you expect it to be? Narrator doesn't need to explain it to audience like they are 5 years old.

At that time Zamasu was becoming the entire timeline -> Zeno erased entire timeline and everything inside it -> Zeno was inside the timeline -> Zeno was unharmed which implies he can resist to his own EE.

Thinking Zeno would specifically exclude himself from an omnidirectional EE requires more proof than proving the otherwise.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

So...your example for the white light being 'just visuals'...is characters being covered in a white light before being erased. The same white light that is generated when Zeno uses his Erase ability. The same white light that coats the timeline when erasing it. The same white light that covers Zeno's body.

On top of that, what exactly do you propose the white light is? or how the Erase ability even functions? I can already see it now. Claiming it's just 'special' or 'we don't know'. Even though the power system the gods themselves use is God Ki. And Zeno is the head god. Meaning the powers he have are, almost certainly, derived from God Ki. Which means it is his own Ki from his own body that erases people from existence. So his own body would logically need to be able to withstand his own power to not be erased by it.

Unless you can come up with an alternative explanation for Zeno's powers I don't really see why this should even remotely pass. He's using God Ki to erase existence. He is literally enveloped in his own erasing power. His own body produces the power to erase timelines.

 

[TiltedFN]

Yeah this ain't it. I disagree for Cryo's reasons.

 

[Hecky2222]

So his own body would logically need to be able to withstand his own power to not be erased by it.

This is hilariously strange assumption which would give everyone who has EE "EE Resistance"

 

[CryoTheMayo]

This is hilariously strange assumption which would give everyone who has EE "EE Resistance"

Does everyone have Ki? Or do you mean everyone in Dragon Ball? Because everyone in Dragon Ball who has EE does resist EE. So I don't see your point.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I disagree, that argument doesn't hold water.

 

[Gamin_Yoon23]

Hard disagree. This just feels like you’re looking for any detail, whether subtle or minor

This is hilariously strange assumption which would give everyone who has EE "EE Resistance"

You would need to clarify and would actually need to add context where context is due because the “EE” you’re referring to doesn’t even match the context we’re under the impression of. For starters, not all EE are portrayed in the exact manner, from Verse to Verse you’d typically find a lot differences which is to be expected since it’s fiction. As for Zeno, what? Why would we deem this a strange assumption? Zeno is clearly firing an omnidirectional beam encompassing the entire multiverse essentially coating himself with his own attack. It’s not even as if this is anything new either. Pardon the example since Kamehameha isn’t akin to existence erasure but we’ve seen character’s such as Goku go through his own attack when finalising with a punch against Hit. IIRC Goku even launches a Kamehameha towards himself which circles King Kai planet before making contact and we see Goku successfully stop it.

 

[WAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH]

To be fair, this moment is a tiny bit different than in the TOP.
Since Goku and the gang knew they had to book it from the blast as well, plus Zeno saying that "a world like this must disappear" rather than just "YOU have to disappear", Zeno probably wasn't only targeting Zamasu. Rather, he just wanted to destroy everything around him cause it was annoying.

(We literally see later that Goku can survive just fine in Zeno's erased void, so oxygen or cold likely wasn't the problem either)

But I do agree that the Zeno being able to target specific things does mean he could have just NOT targeted himself here.

However, I still think he should have the resistance, even if only as "Possibly" if this does pass Since the site already accepts that Destruction Gods can resist to their own powers, and powerful mortals like Vegeta and Freeza can resist it too. Which Zeno's energy logically should have a similar nature too, or scale too as top dog.

 

[Killerdrone123]

Yeah, I disagree. We can clearly see the difference in erasure effect when Zeno selects something to erase compared to when he used it on Zamasu. In the latter case, his erasure visibly expands and engulfs even himself he’s literally shown at the center of it. Arguing that it’s “just visuals” feels like a bad-faith argument when the depiction is so clear. Also what cryo mentioned above

 

[RoninSlayer200]

This is hilariously strange assumption which would give everyone who has EE "EE Resistance"

His Ki comes from his own body and soul and that same Ki produces his EE, he is literally the source of his own EE. That's saying like Goku cannot resist his own Kamehameha. His body needs to durable enough to produce and create the EE. Ki system exactly works like that, the stronger you sure the more durable you are.

 

[Shar122]

I don't think this is really the case as everyone specifically said, it's widely accepted that Zeno here cosmology nuked the whole timeline itself and Zeno is within the timeline, and it's nowhere stated that it only affects IZ only directly. Hard disagree.

 

[Ferno1234]

I agree with op

 

[Ferno1234]

His body needs to durable enough to produce and create the EE

"Durable" "EE" wtf?

That's saying like Goku cannot resist his own Kamehameha

I don’t recall the Kamehameha ever being EE as far as my knowledge goes

 

[MetaChronos]

Anyone who is disagreeing with this CRT, answer this please

Most people (who disagree) are saying since Zeno destroyed the timeline, it would mean he must've attacked himself along with the timeline, since he exists in the timeline. But how does that work? Zeno is extremely powerful and accurate with his existence erasure. So why would he try to destroy/erase himself when he can just erase the timeline, not including himself. Also does this logic even make sense? If a person is angry and wants to destroy something, he would destroy that specific something, not himself along with it. If anyone can explain this logic, then i'll agree with them.

So for now, i agree with this thread.

 

[Gamin_Yoon23]

"Durable" "EE" wtf?

I don’t recall the Kamehameha ever being EE as far as my knowledge goes

No one said it’s EE. I actually used Kamehameha as an example in one of my paragraphs and made it deliberately clear Kamehameha isn’t akin to EE but hold some strong similarities. As does Ki manipulation as a whole does. You do realise durable in this context could be synonymous to resistant right? You really don’t need to call something out that’s easily recognisable. You don’t gain points from that and he likely made a mistake but his reasoning and logic holds up. We can’t argue Ki as if it’s some ordinary energy system because it really isn’t. Ki isn’t simple as others think. It has clear statements of UES being present and a main component of Ki.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Anyone who is disagreeing with this CRT, answer this please

Most people (who disagree) are saying since Zeno destroyed the timeline, it would mean he must've attacked himself along with the timeline, since he exists in the timeline. But how does that work? Zeno is extremely powerful and accurate with his existence erasure. So why would he try to destroy/erase himself when he can just erase the timeline, not including himself. Also does this logic even make sense? If a person is angry and wants to destroy something, he would destroy that specific something, not himself along with it. If anyone can explain this logic, then i'll agree with them.

So for now, i agree with this thread.

Okay well I got a question for you, friend.

If Zeno is so accurate with his Existence Erasure. And he didn't just release an omnidirectional EE blast to wipe everything in the timeline, which would include himself. Then you would be arguing he is just targeting Infinite Zamasu, yeah?

In which case, why is the entire timeline erased from him targeting Infinite Zamasu rather than everything in the world? Which would include himself?

Is Infinite Zamasu 1-C prior to his erasure? Or does Zeno simply resist his own Existence Erasure? Please explain

 

[Ultimuru]

Zeno exists inside the timeline, and he specifically targets the entire space around him. He doesn't need to target himself because his EE would already target him, you know cosmology nukes works like that.

Zeno has show that he can erase only things he wants. I don't see why his own power would take him as a target if he didn't wanted to erase himself.

Thinking Zeno would specifically exclude himself from an omnidirectional EE requires more proof than proving the otherwise.

You want me to prove why Zeno didn't tried to kill himself with the timeline?

So...your example for the white light being 'just visuals'...is characters being covered in a white light before being erased. The same white light that is generated when Zeno uses his Erase ability. The same white light that coats the timeline when erasing it. The same white light that covers Zeno's body

My example of it being just visuals is the fact that this light doesn't have to travel to target, doesn't have to hit the target and other than first usage of it we don't even see it as "omnidirectional blast". It's simply a glow on his hands which was never stated to do anything other than just shining.

On top of that, what exactly do you propose the white light is? or how the Erase ability even functions? I can already see it now. Claiming it's just 'special' or 'we don't know'.

I claim it's just a visual effect with no deeper meaning. Just like Goku loses his hair in ssj3 for no reason. Or how characters screams technique names even when they can perform them in silence.

Even though the power system the gods themselves use is God Ki. And Zeno is the head god. Meaning the powers he have are, almost certainly, derived from God Ki. Which means it is his own Ki from his own body that erases people from existence. So his own body would logically need to be able to withstand his own power to not be erased by it.

Saying that Zeno can withstand his own ability just because he can perform it is not very believable without further proofs for it.

Unless you can come up with an alternative explanation for Zeno's powers I don't really see why this should even remotely pass. He's using God Ki to erase existence. He is literally enveloped in his own erasing power. His own body produces the power to erase timelines.

My explaination is simple. Zeno chooses target, sauishes his hand with a light effect on it and target goes poof. I don't really understand why anyone would say that he targets also himself, but tanks it and that's why he is not erased.

Hard disagree. This just feels like you’re looking for any detail, whether subtle or minor

More like I am not trying to add meaning to every single flash we see. Trying to find explaination to why Zeno's hands glows when he erases things is on the same level of trying to explain why in ssj3 Goku loses his eyebrows. It's just to look cool.

To be fair, this moment is a tiny bit different than in the TOP.
Since Goku and the gang knew they had to book it from the blast as well, plus Zeno saying that "a world like this must disappear" rather than just "YOU have to disappear", Zeno probably wasn't only targeting Zamasu. Rather, he just wanted to destroy everything around him cause it was annoying.

Goku never seen Zeno's erasing things before. It's logical that he tried to not risk anything and run away. Especially that Mai was around them and nobody wanted her to get hurt. And Zamasu at that point became the world itself so it equals.

However, I still think he should have the resistance, even if only as "Possibly" if this does pass Since the site already accepts that Destruction Gods can resist to their own powers, and powerful mortals like Vegeta and Freeza can resist it too. Which Zeno's energy logically should have a similar nature too, or scale too as top dog.

Yeah but Hakai is clearly a technique, where GoD has to hit the target or get close. Zeno can simply erase universes while being outside of them. And erase it both with his inhabitants despite of them currently not being in one. Hakai seems to be a beta version of Zeno's ability.

Yeah, I disagree. We can clearly see the difference in erasure effect when Zeno selects something to erase compared to when he used it on Zamasu. In the latter case, his erasure visibly expands and engulfs even himself he’s literally shown at the center of it. Arguing that it’s “just visuals” feels like a bad-faith argument when the depiction is so clear. Also what cryo mentioned above

We don't really see this light even reaching everything. Yes, we see it expands, but when camera zooms off to show planet covered by Zamasu, everything just disappears as if someone turned off the TV. We don't see the light spreading across the universe and erasing everything it touches. Light was bigger simply because the entire timeline was the target.

His Ki comes from his own body and soul and that same Ki produces his EE, he is literally the source of his own EE. That's saying like Goku cannot resist his own Kamehameha. His body needs to durable enough to produce and create the EE. Ki system exactly works like that, the stronger you sure the more durable you are.

As far as I know EE bypasses durability. And I doubt Goku can resist own kamehameha. He would definitely be hurt if it would be fired back at him.

 

[RoninSlayer200]

So why would he try to destroy/erase himself when he can just erase the timeline, not including himself

That just means he knew he would be unaffected by his own attack, extremely simple.

Also does this logic even make sense? If a person is angry and wants to destroy something, he would destroy that specific something, not himself along with it.

An angry person would not even think about the possible harmful consequences of his own action, and Zeno isn't type to be super-duper magically precise enough to somehow destroying an entire timeline but NOT specifically himself when he is the center of erasure. This is Zeno we are talking about, a toddler who has power above everyone else.

Let's assume he can't resist his own EE. Why risk yourself with an omnidirectional blast that is apparently capable of harming himself? WHAT did Zeno use to protect himself from erasure? You gotta find a better explanation than to prove he isn't simply resistant to EE

 

[Tuxidoe_Redo]

This thread doesn't really matter since Zeno is coated with his own KI that has EE properties just like Hakai users

 

[Ultimuru]

That just means he knew he would be unaffected by his own attack, extremely simple.

An angry person would not even think about the possible harmful consequences of his own action, and Zeno isn't type to be super-duper magically precise enough to somehow destroying an entire timeline but NOT specifically himself when he is the center of erasure. This is Zeno we are talking about, a toddler who has power above everyone else.

Let's assume he can't resist his own EE. Why risk yourself with an omnidirectional blast that is apparently capable of harming himself? WHAT did Zeno use to protect himself from erasure? You gotta find a better explanation than to prove he isn't simply resistant to EE

What's more believable? That Zeno erased everything and targeted even himself, but tanked it because he is a gigachad or Zeno erased everything and EXCLUDED himself since he can pick what to erase and what not?

 

[Gp972]

What's more believable? That Zeno erased everything and targeted even himself, but tanked it because he is a gigachad or Zeno erased everything and EXCLUDED himself since he can pick what to erase and what not?

The First, Goku could withstand his own attacks from the Namek saga onwards, so why couldn't Zeno, the most powerful being in the verse?

 

[MetaChronos]

Okay well I got a question for you, friend.

If Zeno is so accurate with his Existence Erasure. And he didn't just release an omnidirectional EE blast to wipe everything in the timeline, which would include himself. Then you would be arguing he is just targeting Infinite Zamasu, yeah?

In which case, why is the entire timeline erased from him targeting Infinite Zamasu rather than everything in the world? Which would include himself?

Is Infinite Zamasu 1-C prior to his erasure? Or does Zeno simply resist his own Existence Erasure? Please explain

Did you watch the anime? Cause genuinely infinite zamasu was merging with the timeline. Zeno had no choice but to destroy the timeline if he wanted to erase that. So we can assume, according to zeno, he is only killing that "disgusting creature" who is merging with the timeline.

And this still doesn't answer my question of logic but sure.

That just means he knew he would be unaffected by his own attack, extremely simple.

And how exactly does he know that. Was it mentioned anywhere that he DOES know that he is resistant to his own existence erasure?

An angry person would not even think about the possible harmful consequences of his own action, and Zeno isn't type to be super-duper magically precise enough to somehow destroying an entire timeline but NOT specifically himself when he is the center of erasure. This is Zeno we are talking about, a toddler who has power above everyone else.

How does this argument even relate to consequences of your action. In which universe of logic can you conclude that he doesn't know his own ability so he tries to destroy the timeline along with himself. And zeno's intelligence is average. not that of a toddler.

Let's assume he can't resist his own EE. Why risk yourself with an omnidirectional blast that is apparently capable of harming himself? WHAT did Zeno use to protect himself from erasure? You gotta find a better explanation than to prove he isn't simply resistant to EE

What do you mean he is risking himself/his life? My logic from the start was saying WHY would Zeno harm himself when destroying the timeline. He doesn't need to protect himself if he isn't even harming himself.

My point still stands. I can't seem to get any answer for the logic of why zeno would try to harm himself. If anyone can answer that, i would change my opinion.

 

[Gp972]

What's more believable? That Zeno erased everything and targeted even himself, but tanked it because he is a gigachad or Zeno erased everything and EXCLUDED himself since he can pick what to erase and what not?

In addition to the Gods of Destruction can survive Hakai; in fact, Goku can too. Existential erasure depends on the user's power.

Super shenlong > Bills
So Zamasu regen/inmortality > Bills hakai

Zeno ≥ Super Shenlong
Zeno erasing > Zamasu regen/inmortality

If your power is insufficient, existential erasure does not affect the opponent.

 

[Gp972]

So i disagree

 

[Ultimuru]

The First, Goku could withstand his own attacks from the Namek saga onwards, so why couldn't Zeno, the most powerful being in the verse?

Its a bad comparison. Goku is a trained fighter and his body is used to so much power (As we could see with Kaioken, if he pushes his body further his muscles can't take it). Zeno on the other hand despite of being described as "the strongest" still couldn't keep up with watching Goku's fights. Which shouldn't happen as perception speed scales to normaln speed and in DB speed increases with power.

My headcanon but I think everyone call Zeno the strongest not because of his stats, but because his erasure works like hakai on steroids and can poof anyone. Like level 1 character on game server who have mod and can ban anyone no matter what level they have.

 

[RoninSlayer200]

Zeno has show that he can erase only things he wants. I don't see why his own power would take him as a target if he didn't wanted to erase himself.

That just means he has range from one people to literal timeline. He STILL decided to nuke everything while being inside.

You want me to prove why Zeno didn't tried to kill himself with the timeline?

Yeah because you are proposing exactly this and try to convince everyone he somehow excluded himself without proposing any logical explanation.

As far as I know EE bypasses durability. And I doubt Goku can resist own kamehameha. He would definitely be hurt if it would be fired back at him.

I mean.

What's more believable? That Zeno erased everything and targeted even himself, but tanked it because he is a gigachad or Zeno erased everything and EXCLUDED himself since he can pick what to erase and what not?

1 makes more sense and more logical because there is literally nothing supportive for the exclusion argument when he is in the center.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Wait. I'm pretty sure the whole Omnidirectional blast has already been rejected before by Donttalk. Saying you can't reasonably assume someone would include themselves when using their powers

Zeno EE resistance

I'm making this crt to clean up the aftermath of a certain other thread that got completely derailed and then closed early let me make this clear, the point of the thread is EXCLUSIVELY EE reistance and nothing else now, let me explain the justifications this and for reference don't forget to...

vsbattles.com

Furthermore, it wouldn't make sense that he doesn't have that much Ki Control to selectively erase everything except himself when he can literally erase an Entire Universe, including those that currently exist in the Tournament of Power, without affecting the entire place and just the residents

And as DT stated, it is an unreasonable assumption that he would destroy himself with his own blast. It could simply be hinting at him being angry because it looks ugly and unsightly to him. unlike in TOP where he is just having fun

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

This thread doesn't really matter since Zeno is coated with his own KI that has EE properties just like Hakai users

Not that I agree with the thread, but I'm pretty sure we don't give characters resistance for said reasons.

Same way no character with a passive aura has resistance to its effects unless explicitely shown.

 

[Pepsimanslover]

Does everyone have Ki? Or do you mean everyone in Dragon Ball? Because everyone in Dragon Ball who has EE does resist EE. So I don't see your point.

Tbf, we don't assume that just because a character uses UES that they suddenly resist whatever hax they throw around.

However this is cleary a omni-directional blast that would encompass Zeno's own body; Goku and the others leaving is an indicative that they would've been erased which is nonsensical if Zeno can control what the blast would've erased; Using your power on a specific target doesn't mean you can suddenly be ultra specific regarding whom it affects when that same power is channeled as a blast.

Ignoring visual effects is a bit weird as that's just the same as saying "Ignore your eyes" lol. The visual is indicative of how it works, it's naturally acceptable to use.

Disagree with the thread.

 

[Ferno1234]

he likely made a mistake but his reasoning and logic holds up.

In what way?

We can’t argue Ki as if it’s some ordinary energy system

We have confirmation that Zeno's EE is ki based?

 

[Pepsimanslover]

Wait. I'm pretty sure the whole Omnidirectional blast has already been rejected before by Donttalk. Saying you can't reasonably assume someone would include themselves when using their powers

DT isn't the supreme authority over matters, his word isn't standards.
It needs to be proven that Zeno can be this selective with his abilities for this to even make sense.

 

[Gp972]

In what way?

We have confirmation that Zeno's EE is ki based?

Everything is based on ki unless it's stated otherwise, right?

 

[Ultimuru]

DT isn't the supreme authority over matters, his word isn't standards.
It needs to be proven that Zeno can be this selective with his abilities for this to even make sense.

He can destroy rue timeline. He can destroy the universe. He can destroy specific person. I think it means Zeno's ability is pretty precise and not just a nuke

 

[Ultimuru]

Everything is based on ki unless it's stated otherwise, right?

If Zeno has enough of ki to destroy the timeline, his speed should scale to it (as Vegeta in Namek saga said) right? And perception speed should match normal speed, right? Then why he would need a special pad to watch ToP because others were too fast for him?

 

[RoninSlayer200]

He can destroy rue timeline. He can destroy the universe. He can destroy specific person. I think it means Zeno's ability is pretty precise and not just a nuke

Okay and how do you prove he decided a complete nuke and at the same was precise enough to not affect himself when he was erasing the very space he was on? Just saying precise isn't enough when nothing remotely close was implied in the scene.

 

[Ferno1234]

Everything is based on ki unless it's stated otherwise, right?

From what i see, it's potrayed as an outlier compared to everything else in verse

Can erase immortals like zamasu

Can erase something regardless if he's near it

And from i remember from dbs and currently know, he isn't potrayed as a "physical" fighter

It's not shown as either ki or like hakai's energy