Zoom (Hunter Zolomon) vs Sans

[Naitez]

Been wondering about this. Will Zoom get stomped or will he beat Sans?

 

[Northern_Wind00]

Let me look up Zoom really quick, as I know Sans like the back of my hand. Hmm...

That's actually a tough call. Zoom having possibly infinite speed is a relatively difficult thing to consider that I'm unsure how to deal with. Sans can react ridiculously fast, with instantaneous teleportation under his belt and time-space enemy teleportation at faster than light speed, and he's capable of (And indeed does) blitz characters with MFTL+ reactions, via my calculations about the Enrico Pucci battle posted earlier, whose powers seem similar to Zoom's.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/184041

Ultimately, from what I can tell, Zoom steals speed from those who use the speed force, or slows down time for others relative to how fast he's going. Depending on the limits of the latter ability, since the former won't even warrant a note in this battle, Sans might be in for a bad time, or he might not. Blue mode comes into play here, because Sans can pin Zoom by his soul, which negates a lot of the threat...

Alright, having done a little extra research on Zoom now, combing through some comics and archives, I think I have a better understanding of the limitations of his powers. You're referring specifically to Hunter Zolomon's incarnation of Zoom and not Eobard "Zoom" Thawne, so his powers aren't actually derived from the same source as The Flash. The important thing to note here is that Sans only needs to kill Zoom once, and he doesn't need to keep anyone else alive to win. The version of Zoom in question could travel around in time, but he couldn't affect anything without a physical ability to collide with it. He was fast enough to alter the timestream, but ultimately that makes no difference as Sans has awareness of alternate timelines, the past and the potential future. In short, it doesn't matter if Zoom goes back in time, Sans will still be ready for him. It doesn't matter if he goes forwards in time, Sans will still be ready for him, barring Sans dying of unrelated causes (which would be BFR on Zoom anyway, since Zoom would have removed himself from the battle), Sans is ready to fight. If Zoom attempts to sucker punch him while he's asleep, he can dodge that through his ridiculously MFTL+ reactions anyway, as shown in the fight against Chara.

Hunter Zoloman is a not-insignificant threat to the fabric of space-time, and you can bet that Sans would recognize that and act accordingly. Sans' bones do travel faster than Light based attacks in his game (without going into how his metafighting works), and that's not even counting his Gasterblasters, whose beams are instantaneous to a being that percieves light at 1/983578866th speed, so much so that they're difficult to aim dodge at that level of reaction. I don't think that I've seen any feats on Zoom's end that allow him to react to something that fast, let alone multiple things that fast that wind-up at FTL speeds.

Ultimately, I think Sans takes this, but due to time-wizardry there might be something I'm missing. Anyone else got things to say?

 

[Naitez]

I know this is a necropost but let me clear things up. The Hunter Zolomon Zoom here can't time travel. Only the Eobard Thawne Professor Zoom can. Zoom here can only move outside the flow of all time, meaning the physical definition of speed cannot apply to him. This is what makes him faster than Wally West, even when absorbing nearly all of the Speed Force. His "speed" is Infinity through this ability.

Sans here has 1 HP supposedly so power doesn't matter here. The question is, can Zoom do it? I don't know as I never played Undertale nor do I understand a lot about Sans.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

Sans here has 1 HP supposedly so power doesn't matter here. The question is, can Zoom do it? I don't know as I never played Undertale nor do I understand a lot about Sans.

Sans has very powerful spacetime fuckery, on the level of being able to retrieve objects from erased timelines (He retains a photograph of the time after you saved the world if you choose to undo it), so I think he could do it. Just my opinion though.

 

[Undylan]

Sans here has 1 HP supposedly so power doesn't matter here. The question is, can Zoom do it? I don't know as I never played Undertale nor do I understand a lot about Sans.

Sans has very powerful spacetime fuckery, on the level of being able to retrieve objects from erased timelines (He retains a photograph of the time after you saved the world if you choose to undo it), so I think he could do it. Just my opinion though.

Any proof for that?

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

Sans here has 1 HP supposedly so power doesn't matter here. The question is, can Zoom do it? I don't know as I never played Undertale nor do I understand a lot about Sans.

Sans has very powerful spacetime fuckery, on the level of being able to retrieve objects from erased timelines (He retains a photograph of the time after you saved the world if you choose to undo it), so I think he could do it. Just my opinion though.

Any proof for that?

Sans workshop has a photo in it. If you interact with the photo the text will say that is you, sans and a bunch of people who you don't know. But. If you complete the pacifist run before. The text will change and say that is the photo is you (Frisk, the protagonist) and all his/her friends from the pacifist ending. Which should be impossible to begin with because if you do the true reset everything returns to it's original place and everyone gets their memory erased.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well it could be time travel or others, I don't know if that should be enough of a proof in a VS Debate. As in there, unless we say that Sans' dodges ability is more Reality Warping than simple dodging, Zoom blitzes.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

Well it could be time travel or others, I don't know if that should be enough of a proof in a VS Debate. As in there, unless we say that Sans' dodges ability is more Reality Warping than simple dodging, Zoom blitzes.

It really is reality warping, for sure. He has instantaneous teleportation, warps reality to prevent you from being able to attack him (Only overcome with the power of DETERMINATION on a level powerful enough to break the base rules of his reality), can dodge just as well in his sleep as when awake, etc.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I think they should be some kind of consensus on the wiki about Sans' abilities, since the nature of his dodging could decide a lot of matches, such as this one, VS Beerus or VS The Judge.

 

[Naitez]

If Sans speed is caused by reality warping, then it should be immeasurable and he should stomp Beerus, who is much slower than Zoom.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well not really immeasurable, I doubt this go for his attack speed and such, only that he can dodges things like an immeasurable being would, unless you count teleporting people into his attacks as speed.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

I think they should be some kind of consensus on the wiki about Sans' abilities, since the nature of his dodging could decide a lot of matches, such as this one, VS Beerus or VS The Judge.

The problem inherant in this being that his abilities are left intentionally vague, specifically to confuse and disorient the player.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well that's not the problem. In-Universe, dodging attacks like that is not exactly possible, Sans doing it is breaking the rules of the world AKA reality warping.

It's transitioning it into an actual battle that is hard.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

It depends really. To be honest. Some just see him dodging you like...Well. Dodging

But seeing how gamecodes almost mean reality in Undertale it could also be taken as Reality Warping. Since it is obvious that. For example. You can't kill a vendor because he is in his shop. Which makes no sense unless you think of game codes as reality.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Yeah like most people would say, Undertale has no fourth wall usually.

 

[Naitez]

We leaning towards inconclusive here or does Zoom win?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Leaning to inconclusive until the Sans deal is decided upon for me.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

We leaning towards inconclusive here or does Zoom win?

Inconclusive/still debating.

 

[Naitez]

I'll give it extra time for the discussion before I start putting them on the list.

 

[Naitez]

Alright, before I add them to the list, someone tell me in a nutshell why this match is inconclusive. I personally think Zoom should blitz Sans with his infinite speed and beat him.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Sans's dodging abilities are confusing to put in a VS debate, so we don't know if being faster is enough to hit sans.

 

[Promestein]

Let's address some things here. This thread is old, but appears to be the root of some misconceptions.

People assume several things:

- Sans' dodging is reality warping

- Sans' dodging is automatic

Assuming the first point is true, which is debatable, the second one can't be correct. Otherwise Sans wouldn't have died. He would have just kept on dodging. It's evidently tied to his guard being up, and it was up when he was asleep. A lot of people sleep on edge and awaken very easily, so this isn't really evidence for anything. If I fell asleep in the middle of a battle with a murderous child, I'd be on edge.

Zoom blitzes and kills Sans, easy, because, with this speed difference, Sans will never know he was there, and then he'll be dead.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

Let's address some things here. This thread is old, but appears to be the root of some misconceptions.
People assume several things:

- Sans' dodging is reality warping

- Sans' dodging is automatic

Assuming the first point is true, which is debatable, the second one can't be correct. Otherwise Sans wouldn't have died. He would have just kept on dodging. It's evidently tied to his guard being up, and it was up when he was asleep. A lot of people sleep on edge and awaken very easily, so this isn't really evidence for anything. If I fell asleep in the middle of a battle with a murderous child, I'd be on edge.

Zoom blitzes and kills Sans, easy, because, with this speed difference, Sans will never know he was there, and then he'll be dead.

Sans has a basic overview of knowledge of possible events. His defenses are functionally always up, the only reason he lost was getting sucker punched by someone else taking control at the end of the fight and breaking the laws of his universe to attack 'twice'.

 

[Promestein]

Sans has a basic overview of knowledge of possible events. His defenses are functionally always up, the only reason he lost was getting sucker punched by someone else taking control at the end of the fight and breaking the laws of his universe to attack 'twice'."

a) I don't see anything to support Sans' defenses always being up.

b) He does not. Sans does not have knowledge of possible events. He is aware of the existence of alternate timelines through his research and intelligence, not some psychic sense that gives him an intimate knowledge of the spacetime continuum. He says "our reports" when referring to the disturbances in space and time. He is not alone, and did not figure all these things single-handedly.

c) You are assuming that Zoom is above sucker punching Sans, that existing outside of the regular flow of time is something he'd know how to fight, and that it does not go against the laws of the universe. I see no reason for Sans to be unable to dodge the second blow outside of him dropping his guard, if it's an automatic reality warping impulse.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

b) You are assuming that Zoom is above sucker punching Sans, that existing outside of the regular flow of time is something he'd know how to fight, and that it does not go against the laws of the universe. I see no reason for Sans to be unable to dodge the second blow outside of him dropping his guard, if it's an automatic reality warping impulse.

He was capable of fighting Frisk, who existed in dimensions beyond time and space in the Asriel fight after the entire timeline was consumed. I'm not saying that it's automatic, either, I'm just saying that he was attacked by an entity that took the person he was fighting out of control and broke reality's rules in what it did.

 

[Promestein]

He was capable of fighting Frisk, who existed in dimensions beyond time and space in the Asriel fight after the entire timeline was consumed. I'm not saying that it's automatic, either, I'm just saying that he was attacked by an entity that took the person he was fighting out of control and broke reality's rules in what it did.

That wasn't Sans' power, that was Asriel's power. So, irrelevant.

EDIT: I realize now that you were likely talking about Sans managing to fight Frisk at all when Frisk managed to exist outside of time and space when Asriel destroyed the timeline. However, Frisk's max determination feats =/= normal Frisk, and certainly not Chara/Frisk. I'm pretty sure you've been told this several times, so I'd appreciate it if you stopped bringing up points that were already disproved, thanks.

That doesn't help your case at all. Zoom is breaking reality's rules too, and is much faster than both Sans and Chara (while they're possessing Frisk). He simply doesn't have the speed, knowledge, or time to kill Zoom. He'd theoretically be able to kill him if Zoom stood there and took it, or if he had knowledge of his powers and ample prep time. But he won't, and he doesn't.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

However, Frisk's max determination feats =/= normal Frisk, and certainly not Chara/Frisk. I'm pretty sure you've been told this several times, so I'd appreciate it if you stopped bringing up points that were already disproved, thanks.

Determination is derived from the intensity of the situation. Sans' fight is the endgame of the genocide route, just as Asriel and Omega Flowey are of their routes. It is fully reasonable to assume that the Sans fight inspires /almost/ as much determination as either of those. There's absolutely no reason to assume otherwise.

 

[Squid_peanut]

Determination is derived from the intensity of the situation. Sans' fight is the endgame of the genocide route, just as Asriel and Omega Flowey are of their routes. It is fully reasonable to assume that the Sans fight inspires /almost/ as much determination as either of those. There's absolutely no reason to assume otherwise.

yes but Frisk/Chara is emotionally detached and thus while able to to be normally more determined would have a smaller possible range because they wouldn't be able to feal intensity as much

 

[Northern_Wind00]

yes but Frisk/Chara is emotionally detached and thus while able to to be normally more determined would have a smaller possible range because they wouldn't be able to feal intensity as much

Except determination is sourced to the player, not Frisk/Chara, by Chara themselves. *shrugs*

 

[Promestein]

False equivalency. Both Flowey and Asriel are infinitely greater threats than Sans ever could present to Chara, so of course they'd require greater amounts of determination to properly fight. Chara drawing on the amount of determination Frisk needed to even scratch Omega Flowey is horrendous overkill, and would imply Immeasurable Chara (in Frisk's body) and Sans, which is a no. All Chara needed to kill Sans was LOVE, and they only needed the determination to get back up.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

False equivalency. Both Flowey and Asriel are infinitely greater threats than Sans ever could present to Chara, so of course they'd require greater amounts of determination to properly fight. Chara drawing on the amount of determination Frisk needed to even scratch Omega Flowey is horrendous overkill, and would imply Immeasurable Chara (in Frisk's body) and Sans, which is a no. All Chara needed to kill Sans was LOVE, and they only needed the determination to get back up.

That makes no sense. Determination is a factor in every fight, according to the way they have been handled thus far on this wiki. The more determination, the more powerful. The more intense the situation, the more determination, since Determination is sourced to the player by Chara.

 

[Promestein]

That makes no sense. Determination is a factor in every fight, according to the way they have been handled thus far on this wiki. The more determination, the more powerful. The more intense the situation, the more determination, since Determination is sourced to the player by Chara.

Comparing Asriel vs Frisk to Chara vs Sans is comparing Frisk fighting for their life against a vastly stronger opponent to Chara playing a game. Sans could never really stop or harm Chara. At most, he inconveniences and irritates them the way an unfair boss would irritate and inconvenience you. Chara is completely aware of this. Sans is a delay, nothing more. Not a legitimate threat.

You are misinterpreting Chara. The player's determination awoke Chara, and through that determination, Chara used THEIR determination and LOVE to kill and destroy everything. Frisk and Chara do not use the player's determination. They use their own, just as Flowey/Asriel does, and just as Undyne does.

To stay on topic - you have not brought up any new points as to how Sans would beat Zoom. Even if I did give you this point, Zoom would still win due to a massive speed advantage.

 

[Naitez]

I hope that by Zoom winning this match, it means that other insanely fast characters would win too. That includes Beerus.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

To stay on topic - you have not brought up any new points as to how Sans would beat Zoom. Even if I did give you this point, Zoom would still win due to a massive speed advantage.

Not necessarily. His dodging is based on reality warping and his prediction is nigh perfect. Assuming both are bloodlusted, then Sans knows Zoom is coming and can dodge and counterattack. *shrug* again, this is my own thoughts on the matter. I've got nothing against Zoom, but the potential is here.

"Sans could never really stop or harm Chara. At most, he inconveniences and irritates them the way an unfair boss would irritate and inconvenience you. "

That's not correct, at all. Chara/Frisk are fused, and if it's not for the player using their determination to keep going, the end could easily be that they die there. period.

 

[Promestein]

Not necessarily. His dodging is based on reality warping and his prediction is nigh perfect. Assuming both are bloodlusted, then Sans knows Zoom is coming and can dodge and counterattack. *shrug* again, this is my own thoughts on the matter. I've got nothing against Zoom, but the potential is here.

That's not correct, at all. Chara/Frisk are fused, and if it's not for the player using their determination to keep going, the end could easily be that they die there. period.

Sans only knows anything about Chara's existence because he's prepared for them, because he's observed them, because he has grounds to rationalize their existence and their goals. He has research and at one point had others helping him realize that something was wrong with the timeline. The only reason he would have known Chara had died before when they stroll up is because he's prepared for that as a possibility. He can only dodge because his guard is up. The only reason he lasted any longer than the first blow is because he knew what he was dealing with and had prepared himself. He does not have some danger detecting siren that immediately alerts him to any possible threat within the spacetime continuum.

If this is a bloodlusted battle with no prep time, Zoom wins. Easy. Sans doesn't know who he is. Sans doesn't know what his powers are. Sans doesn't know what he wants. Sans knows absolutely nothing about him or how he fights. Zoom doesn't need to know anything about Sans to stomp him. Sans can win, yes. But you're looking at this marginal possibility as if it holds any ground. It doesn't.

 

[Omgkings]

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A lot of people sleep on edge and awaken very easily, so this isn't really evidence for anything. If I fell asleep in the middle of a battle with a murderous child, I'd be on edge.

That makes little to no sense. "Waking easily" doesn't mean anything. Generally when you wake your overall motor skills are extremely inept, if I were to swing a sword at you or dagger while you were sleeping and you awoke; which in anycase I wouldn't be doing it in a fashion that would alarm you in any sense, the time it would take for you to register a blade is traveling in your general direction, then calibrate the best manuever to dodge would be far longer than if you were awake and aware. So its obvious proof he's always aware, unless infact he wasn't really sleeping.

 

[Cropfist]

Zoom, because he has infinite speed and could easily avoid all of his attacks and hit Sans with it.

 

[XXRiosrockXx]

Couldn't Zoom just hit him before he could process the thought of dodging?

 

[TheOneAboveMostPeople]

Zoom takes this, because of the reasons Promestei explained.

 

[Omni-everything]

zoom has infinite speed so sans would have no time to attack while zoom punching sans like there's no tommorow and thx to promenstein's explaination