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The long awaited Megabug and MegaDragonBowser upgrade to low 2-C

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>The warping spread to the moon

You literally just debunked your own argument. It spread to the moon. Meaning it was not universal in scale since the beginning. It gradually spread to the moon.
No, because the devs stated when the rabbid's got teleported, it spread to the scale of their world/ universe.

My phrasing there only reflects the phrasing by beep-0 being contradicted to mean only the country was being slowly affected, clearly its magnitudes greater and already present.

The beep-0 quote im using predates everything from future beep-0.
 
It's like saying a character is a planet buster because he punched a rock. That's how tiny the scale it is. Reaching the moon isn't evidence that it's universal.
False equivalence. The scale there is stated to extend past that by official statements, which is the evidence there is supporting only helping us infer that.
 
Don't see why it should be locked, I'm still waiting on further elaboration from other staff in support and knowledgeable on the tier 2 standards.
 
False equivalence. The scale there is stated to extend past that by official statements, which is the evidence there is supporting only helping us infer that.
The "official statements" are referring to what happens throughout the game. You did play it right?
 
This really isn't a debate anymore to be completely honest. Matt just keeps bringing up an explicit statement that disproves the scaling, only to be met with straight up "Lalala can't hear you."
Kinda how I feel Matt is currently doing by not addressing what he meant by “Beep-0 is from the future and he knows what happens.”
 
The "official statements" are referring to what happens throughout the game. You did play it right?
"The world" gets corrupted then throughout the game? What happened to it never reached universal to begin with like you phrased and took out of context?
The statement is referring to Mario saving the day after the world becomes unstable, so further proof it at least had that warping scale via energy from the start yes.
 
"That thing in the sky has been gaining power with each corruption we’ve set free. Whatever we do, we must stop it before it gains any more strength. Or soon no force in the mushroom kingdom will be powerful enough to stop it."

It can't get more in your face than this. The vortex does not start off at full power. Nor are the main cast capable of stopping it once it's at full power. This isn't a matter of opinion, it is straight up what is said. And we can even directly see that the corruption is spreading over time. You yourself even said that it "spread to the moon," meaning it did not start off as universal in scale. And no the developers saying "Now the world is in chaos!" does not disprove these blatant points.

This is just flat earth styled denying the evidence right in front of your face at this point. You cannot keep claiming that the vortex starts off at full power when it is explicitly stated and shown to be the opposite.
 
"That thing in the sky has been gaining power with each corruption we’ve set free. Whatever we do, we must stop it before it gains any more strength. Or soon no force in the mushroom kingdom will be powerful enough to stop it."

It can't get more in your face than this. The vortex does not start off at full power. Nor are the main cast capable of stopping it once it's at full power. This isn't a matter of opinion, it is straight up what is said. And we can even directly see that the corruption is spreading over time. You yourself even said that it "spread to the moon," meaning it did not start off as universal in scale. And no the developers saying "Now the world is in chaos!" does not disprove these blatant points.

This is just flat earth styled denying the evidence right in front of your face at this point. You cannot keep claiming that the vortex starts off at full power when it is explicitly stated and shown to be the opposite.
The vortex never was stated by present Beep-0 to need to get stronger from the start to have "tier 2 power", he says they need to save the world right after it occurs, which it passively will cause those effects over time. It never needs to get stronger to reach that state, they need to save the world from the get go.

This completely ignores the warping parts I have gone over and over.
 
Kinda how I feel Matt is currently doing by not addressing what he meant by “Beep-0 is from the future and he knows what happens.”
Beep-0 is being advised by his future self. "F.B." is the letters that Beep-0 sent back in time.

Even then, how would Beep-0 not being from the future disprove that it is explicitly stated and shown that the vortex does not start off at full power?
 
Beep-0 is being advised by his future self. "F.B." is the letters that Beep-0 sent back in time.

Even then, how would Beep-0 not being from the future disprove that it is explicitly stated and shown that the vortex does not start off at full power?
Because the statements by F.B. don't erase that its that powerful in base passively with just delayed in its effects as it always was claimed to be.

The vortex gaining power is just a vague higher amount and can speed up that destructive end, nothing contradicts it because there's no way it would gain power in base without completely unaware knowledge for Beep-0!

Back to it again, what's your stance and elaboration on the warping point being tier 2 or not?
 
Beep-0 is being advised by his future self. "F.B." is the letters that Beep-0 sent back in time.
The beep-0 quote im using predates everything from future beep-0.
You’re gonna have to scroll up the thread to know why this is important.

Even then, how would Beep-0 not being from the future disprove that it is explicitly stated and shown that the vortex does not start off at full power?
Matt was basically saying that it’s not universal by Beep-0’s Statement because it came from the future. When that’s a blatant misunderstanding on Matt’s part.
 
Your argument will never go anywhere because that Beep-0 quote right there says the complete opposite of your entire premise. The vortex does not start off at full power and the cast does not scale to its full power.

Also yeah everyone knows it warps space-time. It doesn't do so on a universal scale from the get go. Again, you yourself said "the distortion spread to the moon." It gradually went over to the moon, as opposed to you claiming it instantly affected the entire universe from the start (which if it could do that there is no plot since the vortex just immediately destroys everything). I don't even need to argue with you. I can just quote your own lines and it disproves your premise.
 
Your argument will never go anywhere because that Beep-0 quote right there says the complete opposite of your entire premise. The vortex does not start off at full power and the cast does not scale to its full power.
That’s based on the assumption that it’s not universal at the beginning of the game. Full power could be something higher in universal for all we know.


Again, you yourself said "the distortion spread to the moon."
The range argument, not the AP argument.
 
Your argument will never go anywhere because that Beep-0 quote right there says the complete opposite of your entire premise. The vortex does not start off at full power and the cast does not scale to its full power.

Also yeah everyone knows it warps space-time. It doesn't do so on a universal scale from the get go. Again, you yourself said "the distortion spread to the moon." It gradually went over to the moon, as opposed to you claiming it instantly affected the entire universe from the start (which if it could do that there is no plot since the vortex just immediately destroys everything). I don't even need to argue with you. I can just quote your own lines and it disproves your premise.
Beep-0 never gets any info about the vortex gaining any power from any source when he makes the statement going off the base vortex he sees nor does the vortex get stronger on its own over time.

The phrasing there is given by the official statement the world changes once the rabbids appear, there is no delay in those effects by the megabug's energy. I only used that phrasing to address that the spreading doesnt get limited to what Beep-0 says about the country and extends past that via hearing about that from wog.
 
No reason to not take their word on it given the visual evidence support it though. Sources outside of the game like guides, interviews are certainly just as valid here.
 
>That’s based on the assumption that it’s not universal at the beginning of the game.

No you have to prove that the vortex was universe busting at the very beginning. What is there? One statement that says "The world is now in chaos!" No that's nothing. If the vortex was immediately capable of destroying the entire universe, then it would've done so already. The entire plot is to stop it from getting to that level. "Oh but Beep-0 from the present immediately said the world was in danger!" Yeah it's in danger because this vortex is gradually growing and will eventually get to the point where it is unstoppable. That is the threat. This doesn't prove the vortex was instantly universe busting from its conception.

>The range argument, not the AP argument.

The entire premise is that "The distortion immediately affected the entire universe." That is disproven if it takes gradual time for the distortion to even go to the moon. The little "Area of Effect" argument doesn't work here.
 
>That’s based on the assumption that it’s not universal at the beginning of the game.

No you have to prove that the vortex was universe busting at the very beginning. What is there? One statement that says "The world is now in chaos!" No that's nothing. If the vortex was immediately capable of destroying the entire universe, then it would've done so already. The entire plot is to stop it from getting to that level.

>The range argument, not the AP argument.

The entire premise is that "The distortion immediately affected the entire universe." That is disproven if it takes gradual time for the distortion to even go to the moon. The little "Area of Effect" argument doesn't work here.
No actually, that's not the statement, you've misquoted it to look like as some sort of vague hyperbole. The statement by Beep-0, who saw the vortex up close and had stated he wanted to stop it says "we might just save this world". The Japanese version stated "the world will collapse/be destroyed". The gradual destructive effects over time still is tier 2 at the current situation Beep-0 is aware of, with zero way we know of the vortex ever getting stronger on its own, it staying in existence was the threat alone there, hell even the twitter post supports that.

"So the Rabbids have been teleported into the Mushroom Kingdom and it made the world completely unstable and chaotic so Mario as a true hero wants to save the day but this time with some new friends."

There is no gradual timeframe here for the warping effects itself, nor does this get contradicted up to being limited to the scope of the lands you walk through that Beep-0 says gets obvious corruption happening when the moon gets its orbit pushed around, which heavily supports that notion of corruption being still less apparent but still very much happening on that cosmic scale of their universe right from the get go.

Range doesn't contradict the destructive AP level over time either if its already that strong alone.
 
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My bad for misremembering but again it does not change the simple fact that this statement does not contradict what is clearly stated and shown in the game itself. The vortex is gaining power over time. That much is absolutely undeniable. Then as seen throughout the levels and even by your own admission, the distortion is gradually spreading. It takes a while for it to even reach the moon. As such, the distortion was not immediately universal in scale.

I mean again your own points are going against this. The Japanese version stated "the world will collapse/be destroyed." If the vortex was already at universe destroying power from the very beginning why didn't it already do it? Why is it a matter of "will destroy" and not "already has destroyed." Is the vortex just politely waiting for the cast to come fight it?

So when we can clearly see that the vortex is gradually spreading from planet to planet, with the explicit statement that it is gaining power over time, the logical conclusion is that the vortex doesn't start as universal but is eventually growing into that. Its ability to grow into that level of power is the imminent threat. That is why Beep-0 is worried. He even says so in the quote that you keep going "Lalala can't hear you" at.
 
that this statement does not contradict what is clearly stated and shown in the game itself. The vortex is gaining power over time. That much is absolutely undeniable.
So it starts at tier 2 and gradually goes higher in tier 2. I don’t see that logic being wrong.
 
>So it starts at tier 2 and gradually goes higher in tier 2. I don’t see that logic being wrong.

1. You have never actually proven that it starts at Tier 2.

2. The fact that it takes gradual time to spread to the moon and that it didn't destroy the universe to begin with disproves that it started as universal.
 
"So the Rabbids have been teleported into the Mushroom Kingdom and it made the world completely unstable and chaotic so Mario as a true hero wants to save the day but this time with some new friends."
This is hyperbole said by an executive producer pitching the game. This is not what the written game says at all. But I guess it's more valid despite not being what the game shows and states because it's higher.
 
Because it started smaller than a county.
Range

1. You have never actually proven that it starts at Tier 2.
Beep-0 statement that wasn’t influenced by the future Beep-0. If it’s wrong, then obviously you have something to listed AP as then universal at the start of the game, since you are so certain.


The fact that it takes gradual time to spread to the moon and that it didn't destroy the universe to begin with disproves that it started as universal.
Range


This is hyperbole said by an executive producer pitching the game.
Please provide evidence that the producer was pitching and not giving out a summary.
 
My bad for misremembering but again it does not change the simple fact that this statement does not contradict what is clearly stated and shown in the game itself. The vortex is gaining power over time. That much is absolutely undeniable. Then as seen throughout the levels and even by your own admission, the distortion is gradually spreading. It takes a while for it to even reach the moon. As such, the distortion was not immediately universal in scale.

I mean again your own points are going against this. The Japanese version stated "the world will collapse/be destroyed." If the vortex was already at universe destroying power from the very beginning why didn't it already do it? Why is it a matter of "will destroy" and not "already has destroyed." Is the vortex just politely waiting for the cast to come fight it?

So when we can clearly see that the vortex is gradually spreading from planet to planet, with the explicit statement that it is gaining power over time, the logical conclusion is that the vortex doesn't start as universal but is eventually growing into that. Its ability to grow into that level of power is the imminent threat. That is why Beep-0 is worried. He even says so in the quote that you keep going "Lalala can't hear you" at.
Where is the evidence the vortex gets stronger completely on its own? Currently at the time, Beep-0 doesn't know that when he makes the claim, nor does that get any sufficient evidence here that is the case.

It just existing would cause destruction on that level due to the claim but do we know if the Megabug wanted outright destruction or if its unintended either way as a consequence of its mere warping. It just is estimated that it can destroy their universe when he first commented on it.

The altering is quite outright on that scale. The game only backs that part up with it not being limited on their planet but the destructive effects part I'm not willing to say its due to it needing to grow bigger for range fully on its own because nothing supports that it needs to do so for either feat in base for Beep-0's first statement.
 
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The Range argument is so insane. The only reason you say it's Low 2-C is because you believe it can affect the entire universe but then when you point out the that it's not in the beginning "Oh it's just range".

Area of Effect is constantly used as a shield to ignore actual limited scale.
 
This is just going in circles. I’m summarizing my stance and then unfollowing the thread for good.
  1. There are no actual statements or showings that suggest the void at the very beginning was capable of destroying the universe.
  2. We see that it is gradually spreading throughout the lands. It takes time for it to spread to the moon. The OP of this thread even admitted this.
  3. It is directly stated that the vortex grows in power over time until no one will be able to stop it.
  4. For some unexplained reason, despite the fact that the vortex was supposedly capable of destroying the universe from the very second it started, it does not do so. Instead deciding to gradually spread out of what I suppose is it politely waiting for the cast to come stop it?
Because of this, I think that the most logical conclusion is that the vortex did not start at universe destroying but becomes this over time.
 
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The Range argument is so insane. The only reason you say it's Low 2-C is because you believe it can affect the entire universe but then when you point out the that it's not in the beginning "Oh it's just range".
... so? Anything to counter “it's not in the beginning "Oh it's just range"”?


This is just going in circles.
There are no actual statements or showings that suggest the void at the very beginning was capable of destroying the universe.
Beep-0 statement that wasn’t influenced by the future Beep-0. If it’s wrong, then obviously you have something to listed AP as then universal at the start of the game, since you are so certain.
then unfollowing the thread for good.
Ignores Beep-0’s statement, runs from the thread. Got it.

We see that it is gradually spreading throughout the lands. It takes time for it to spread to the moon. The OP of this thread even admitted this.
Building up Range, what this means.

It is directly stated that the vortex grows in power over time until no one will be able to stop it.
Going further in Universal in power, got it.


For some unexplained reason, despite the fact that the vortex was supposed capable of destroying the universe from the very second it started, it does not do so.
Range. I guess Mario Tier 4-A, can just destroy an entire galaxy, even though he doesn’t have the range to do it.


Because of this, I think that the most logical conclusion is that the vortex did not start at universe destroying but becomes this over time.
Yes, Range.
 
1. I'll ask once more, where is the evidence the vortex gets stronger completely all on its own at the time of Beep-0's statement? Because you haven't answered and that idea that it doesnt need to get stronger from the start fully corroborates it would have the power to destroy their world passively and that Beep-0 is worried at that time they need to save their world, and this is backed by the twitter answer of the current sitch.
2. The scope of the gradual spread is already given to us by wog to be their universe in context right after the rabbids were teleported, being that we don't need to "see" time itself being affected.
3. The vortex getting arbitrarily stronger in some tier 2 level isn't a contradiction nor is that sufficient evidence to say it needs to grow in literal size if its just ambiently going to cause that destruction with no outside help, if anything it could just speed up the timeframe. Also, relative to the guys who take him down, they can be some level of tier 2 for themselves ;) Tier 2 doesn't have jumps with multipliers for low 2-C either.
4. The vortex being that powerful at the start can be related to its passive warping being that its an unintended consequence and the warping itself would be a tier 2 feat of AP for the energy if on that scale, which it is.
 
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Except the universe was going to be destroyed from the start if the megabug on its own was not stopped. Also, warped the universe from the start.

On the wiki regarding tier 2 AP:
""Significantly affect" is used as an umbrella term for feats that don't involve direct creation or destruction but are comparable to them in power, such as warping and distorting the entirety of the structure in question, sustaining its existence with one's own, merging the structure with another one, etc."
 
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1. I'll ask once more, where is the evidence the vortex gets stronger completely all on its own at the time of Beep-0's statement? Because you haven't answered and that idea that it doesnt need to get stronger from the start fully corroborates it would have the power to destroy their world passively and that Beep-0 is worried at that time they need to save their world, and this is backed by the twitter answer of the current sitch.
I thought twitter statements were never accepted?
 
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