Guilty Gear: Wait... What?

[The_Impress]

Gonna preface this by saying I know **** all about this verse, this is made from an outsider perspective

Anyways a month or so back I came across this verse, where everyone was scaled to Low 1-C, very unusual sight for a fighting game. All of them are scaled to the main character, who has this justification:

"Sol and Justice, just by existing simultaneously, will erase everything in the universe by merging Backyard, a higher-dimension, and the world, destroying even the universe's space itself, this is also including the Underworld Hill, A pseudo-living space formed in the Backyard that is beyond space-time as a whole."

I've gone through the blogs and CRTs so the feat itself checks out as Low 1-C IMO, but... how is this physicals?

Like for the record we already list something similar as an example on the Environmental Destruction page (Funny Valentine's Dirty Deeds Done Cheap), and some other examples include Richard Watterson and Aquaman, both of the characters have universal destruction feats of this nature (as implied by the wording, at least) and they're only listed Tier 2 by Environmental Destruction.

So I want this thread concluded in either of these two ways:

• Give proof that Low 1-C scales to physicals on the files itself very APPARENTLY, keep in mind I have consulted others on this issue and its unapparent to them as well
• Get alternate physicals and remove scaling towards this feat, in the scenario we don't reach sufficient proofing to imply Backyard destruction scales to AP

Also keep in mind I want this thread objective, so avoid derailment.

 

[The_Impress]

@Antvasima Can you gather supporters for this thread? Verse page seems to list alot of inactive users.

 

[Antvasima]

I will check.

 

[Antvasima]

@Antoniofer @Dragonmasterxyz @ShiroyashaGinSan @ChocomilkAlex @BakiHanma18 @Tonygameman @Ikelaggan

Would you be willing to help out here please?

 

[Paul_Frank]

Since I was asked like 3 times, I'll give probably this one comment and that's it

I agree they shouldn't physically scale to low 1-C, absolute world isn't caused by the power of Sol and Justice, no, it's hax born of their existence. When both Adam and Eve exist in the backyard at the same time (their information bodies), it's triggered, this is an event that's happened multiple times and led to extinctions yada yada.

But with that description given, there's no reason to scale them physically to Absolute World, they aren't doing this through their power, or actively or anything like that, it's an accidental consequence of the way the Backyard works. The only argument I can see for them scaling is the statement that Adam and Eve would survive because they're immortal, but this is pretty clearly talking about Adam and Eve as the information in the Backyard, and not Sol and Justice.

There are other potential arguments, however poor, to scale them to low 1-C, but the number would be a lot smaller, and not at all related to AW

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Will respond later.

 

[Ikelaggan]

Now I understand where your coming from on a outsiders perspective, but that's a given with how magic and spells are not really overly explained but I do got a explanation on how magic also scales physically, how magic intertwined towards the backyard, and how AW isn't only a hax that resulted from just Adam and eve.
Consistently spells have been shown to be physically reflected and transmuted back at opponents as well as physical tanked with no barriers or inherent resistances established.
Like for example potemkin with F.A.B or Ariels tanking sol 20 times output from the outrage. Even though magic in verse originates from the backyard there is a system that works on the principles of a 12 divine steps to properly use it for regular use to where backyard magic goes outside those fundamental limitations and goes above the 12 steps. AW isn't inherently derctruction of the backyard it's more moving the backyard's higher dimensional space into the lower one like how Bedman did this to Ariels.
Not to mention Ariels again even that's can't use dragon install otherwise it would Amp the information flares triggering the AW even further and dragon install is constantly considered a strength amp physically wise and magic wise.

 

[The_Impress]

Now I understand where your coming from on a outsiders perspective, but that's a given with how magic and spells are not really overly explained but I do got a explanation on how magic also scales physically, how magic intertwined towards the backyard, and how AW isn't only a hax that resulted from just Adam and eve.

I'm sorry but, can you point the exact statements that prove these in the explanation itself? I don't really see these from a once over.

Consistently spells have been shown to be physically reflected and transmuted back at opponents as well as physical tanked with no barriers or inherent resistances established.

Meh, this is irrelevant connection. Conventional magic bolts being equated to unconventional mechanics doesn't make much sense.

Like for example potemkin with F.A.B or Ariels tanking sol 20 times output from the outrage. Even though magic in verse originates from the backyard there is a system that works on the principles of a 12 divine steps to properly use it for regular use to where backyard magic goes outside those fundamental limitations and goes above the 12 steps. AW isn't inherently derctruction of the backyard it's more moving the backyard's higher dimensional space into the lower one like how Bedman did this to Ariels.
Not to mention Ariels again even that's can't use dragon install otherwise it would Amp the information flares triggering the AW even further and dragon install is constantly considered a strength amp physically wise and magic wise.

Actually the wording as I understand it, and you can verify this off the blog Shiryo has on the site, no one except two characters are meant to survive AW, so I don't really... get, scaling it to everyone.

 

[Ikelaggan]

I really meant to include this way back in the first revision but mainly I don't think shiryo's blog is wrong it's just there are a few holes in where he gets into explaining magic, but it's mostly a problem with explaining how the scailing chain works without say one character having to explicitly tank the AW and how AW scales into overall AP. Cause without the music theory basis as a foundation to explain magic as a whole the AW wouldn't even be AP related.

 

[The_Impress]

I really meant to include this way back in the first revision but mainly I don't think shiryo's blog is wrong it's just there are a few holes in where he gets into explaining magic, but it's mostly a problem with explaining how the scailing chain works without say one character having to explicitly tank the AW and how AW scales into overall AP. Cause without the music theory basis as a foundation to explain magic as a whole the AW wouldn't even be AP related.

Okay so I think this is a scaling issue then, if one character tanks AW but we have explicit statement no one should be able to survive it, likelyhood of the tanking being an outlier arises.

What other Tier 1 feats do they have, in terms of physicals?

Also like, I feel Music Theory narrative is moreso an analogue rather than a literal 1-to-1 comparison, so I wouldn't stick to auto-assuming feats on basis of this

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Okay so I think this is a scaling issue then, if one character tanks AW but we have explicit statement no one should be able to survive it, likelyhood of the tanking being an outlier arises.

Except for the fact that this blatantly isn’t true, considering there are multiple characters that are capable of residing within the Backyard (I-No, Axl, The Original, Sol, etc…), and all Absolute World is the simple act of merging the two worlds (Human World and Backyard together).

I've gone through the blogs and CRTs so the feat itself checks out as Low 1-C IMO, but... how is this physicals?

Bedman, in his dying fight against Ariels, is able to create an Absolute World of his own, and Ariels mocks Sol for not powering up, knowing that his strength will increase the power of Information Flares, which are just miniature Absolute World’s.

 

[Ikelaggan]

Okay so I think this is a scaling issue then, if one character tanks AW but we have explicit statement no one should be able to survive it, likelyhood of the tanking being an outlier arises.

What other Tier 1 feats do they have, in terms of physicals?

Also like, I feel Music Theory narrative is moreso an analogue rather than a literal 1-to-1 comparison, so I wouldn't stick to auto-assuming feats on basis of this

Now what I'm trying to say with the AW is that yes the statement that no one's supposed to be able to survive it is true, but that's from shearly the hax portions of it. Which why currently scaling you don't see character A scales to character B from tanking A's aboslute world on any profiles. That's cause backyard magic goes outside the 12 steps and characters have already fought against other characters that can scale to much higher dimensional magic and fight on par with them.
Also, the music theory isn't just some narrative analogue when it's heavily baked into the story dialogue in GG overture, GG world, and GG overture Lore page.

 

[The_Impress]

Except for the fact that this blatantly isn’t true, considering there are multiple characters that are capable of residing within the Backyard (I-No, Axl, The Original, Sol, etc…), and all Absolute World is the simple act of merging the two worlds (Human World and Backyard together)

If it's a "simple act of merging worlds" for the record, it'll not have AP altogether, that's just purely Fusionism by core definition. There has to be more to it.

Also like... Elaborate why is this the case?

Like just throwing terms isn't helpful, the entire point of this thread is that current reasoning for Guilty Gear isn't apparent.

Bedman, in his dying fight against Ariels, is able to create an Absolute World of his own, and Ariels mocks Sol for not powering up, knowing that his strength will increase the power of Information Flares, which are just miniature Absolute World’s.

So does Ariels tank it?

Also nothing listed on wiki implies Information Flares are in any way comparable to the magnitude of Absolute World, so proofing would be helpful.

Now what I'm trying to say with the AW is that yes the statement that no one's supposed to be able to survive it is true, but that's from shearly the hax portions of it.

I mean... if it's hax then it shouldn't be scaling altogether. Also I feel this is contradicting Milly's claim abit, of "People not being able to survive Absolute World is BS"

You guys wanna resolve this rq orrrr?

Which why currently scaling you don't see character A scales to character B from tanking A's aboslute world on any profiles. That's cause backyard magic goes outside the 12 steps and characters have already fought against other characters that can scale to much higher dimensional magic and fight on par with them.

Actually you never answered why they scale in physicals :v

Also, the music theory isn't just some narrative analogue when it's heavily baked into the story dialogue in GG overture, GG world, and GG overture Lore page.

Like, exact term?

Also like, reminder I couldn't care less about this verse in terms of personal feelings, and if the thread ends with the resolution "more info to explain stats needs to be added", I'm just as happy, so please be cooperative :y

 

[Keeweed]

I should point out Strive has a high 3-A anti feat since god I-no gets killed by an infinite amount of energy, with zero chance of survival. And Ky and I-no thought the moon just approaching the planet should have killed everyone in the cast combined. I’ll get a clip of the scene.

Edit: The moon conversation is at 7:20.

God I-no shouldn’t scale to moving the moon because she clearly does it through hax.

 

[The_Impress]

Speed stuff is a separate topic, please make a thread discussing this another time.

 

[Keeweed]

Speed stuff is a separate topic, please make a thread discussing this another time.

Ok.

 

[Overlord775]

magic coming from the backyard doesn't mean anything, as you don't just automatically scale attacks to the power source

besides, most of the Backyard isn't even beyond space-time

 

[Ikelaggan]

I should point out Strive has a high 3-A anti feat since god I-no gets killed by an infinite amount of energy, with zero chance of survival. And Ky and I-no thought the moon just approaching the planet should have killed everyone in the cast combined. I’ll get a clip of the scene.

Edit: The moon conversation is at 7:20.

God I-no shouldn’t scale to moving the moon because she clearly does it through hax.

Except your blatantly ignoring that energy is being fired from the outrage which has done feats like this before with sol absorbing saint Oratorio's flame which has unlimited energy. Plus your clearly taking the scene out of context with sol's line of infinity crushing zero.

 

[Ikelaggan]

magic coming from the backyard doesn't mean anything, as you don't just automatically scale attacks to the power source

besides, most of the Backyard isn't even beyond space-time

Well your clearly ignoring my explanation on how the magic system works in tandem with AP, also I've went over this point on how the backyard is a higher dimension in the previous CRT.

 

[Bobsican]

Well your clearly ignoring my explanation on how the magic system works in tandem with AP, also I've went over this point on how the backyard is a higher dimension in the previous CRT.

The issue here is clearly that the wording on the pages for the justification on this stuff is poor in the first place, so I'd suggest just quoting the relevant segments of that CRT.

 

[Overlord775]

Well your clearly ignoring my explanation on how the magic system works in tandem with AP,

None of what you said proves said magic is higher dimensional, you just said it is superior to normal magic

also I've went over this point on how the backyard is a higher dimension in the previous CRT.

acconrding to current profiles only the living-space trascends space time, not every all space in the backyard

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

If it's a "simple act of merging worlds" for the record, it'll not have AP altogether, that's just purely Fusionism by core definition. There has to be more to it.

That makes… no sense. I have no idea how that makes it not AP. Fusionism and AP aren’t mutually exclusive.

So does Ariels tank it?

Yes, in-fact, she does survive it, and Bedman dies instead.

Also nothing listed on wiki implies Information Flares are in any way comparable to the magnitude of Absolute World, so proofing would be helpful.

miniature Absolute World’s.

This is also collaborative by the fact that both Information Flares and Absolute World are explained essentially side by side.

I should point out Strive has a high 3-A anti feat since god I-no gets killed by an infinite amount of energy, with zero chance of survival.

I don’t know why you also chose to ignore the fact that:

A. They targeted her weak spot, in her hand.
B. She willingly gave up, only after Axl pleaded for her to cease fighting, and had managed to hold back the blast, long enough to actually have a conversation with Sol.

And Ky and I-no thought the moon just approaching the planet should have killed everyone in the cast combined. I’ll get a clip of the scene.

This is fine, I guess, but she verbatim states she was controlling the laws of the world.

I feel like I should note that, when he means “no one should survive”, he means the regular humans, considering if not for the sheer size of the Backyard, it’s hax would kill you, which they constantly emphasize. Hell, even the Valentine’s are born there. Given the confusion and scrutinization already, I don’t think this helped much, but, it is what it is.

acconrding to current profiles only the living-space trascends space time, not every all space in the backyard

Um, where is that said?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Gonna be honest scaling every character to Sol when he tends to hold back is super weird.

 

[Keeweed]

It’s like 2 am here. I just woke up for a bit so I’m just going to say Ky very clearly thought the moon being there would kill him too.

Also they said she was going to die. I’ll rewatch the scene when I’m not so tired, but I remember them saying the infinite energy was going to kill her and they only needed to target the weak spot so she wouldn’t heal. She didn’t give up, she just got one final goodbye in before being dying. And I know people are going to say she survived for a while this she should scale, but they said the laser will absolutely kill her and despite Sol having a 0% chance to win his chances of winning became infinite because his attack with infinite, so she shouldn’t scale they make it clear the attack absolutely was going to obliterate her and it did.

Controling the laws of the world isn’t an ap feat. That’s hax without the series saying it’s ap, considering how clear her moon feat being hax is, God I-no clearly revolves entirely around hax.

 

[Keeweed]

Gonna be honest scaling every character to Sol when he tends to hold back is super weird.

They don’t all scale to Sol. Many characters have fought I-no, Ky, and a nearly finished Justice. They backscale immensely, but they aren’t beyond infinitely weaker. Or if the downgrade goes through not hundreds of times weaker.

 

[Ikelaggan]

It’s like 2 am here. I just woke up for a bit so I’m just going to say Ky very clearly thought the moon being there would kill him too.

That's a very big assertion, cause it's clear that he's very worried that all of humanity would get killed cause of the moon being that close to the earth.

Also they said she was going to die. I’ll rewatch the scene when I’m not so tired, but I remember them saying the infinite energy was going to kill her and they only needed to target the weak spot so she wouldn’t heal. She didn’t give up, she just got one final goodbye in before being dying.

They never say they needed infinite energy to kill her, sol says that as long as these zealpods hold out the outrage will a infinite amount of energy.

And I know people are going to say she survived for a while this she should scale, but they said the laser will absolutely kill her and despite Sol having a 0% chance to win his chances of winning became infinite because his attack with infinite, so she shouldn’t scale they make it clear the attack absolutely was going to obliterate her and it did.

Again taking his line of changing his probability of 0% to infinity out of context, she wasn't instantly obliterated the moment he said the line.

Controling the laws of the world isn’t an ap feat. That’s hax without the series saying it’s ap, considering how clear her moon feat being hax is, God I-no clearly revolves entirely around hax.

That's saying her form is completely a glass cannon even though she physically fought against Ky and nago.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

It’s like 2 am here. I just woke up for a bit so I’m just going to say Ky very clearly thought the moon being there would kill him too.

He blatantly questioned why the moon didn’t kill him, he didn’t think anything like that, what exactly are you talking about?

Also they said she was going to die. I’ll rewatch the scene when I’m not so tired, but I remember them saying the infinite energy was going to kill her and they only needed to target the weak spot so she wouldn’t heal.

I don’t recall that ever being stated, just her weak point was her hand.

She didn’t give up, she just got one final goodbye in before being dying. And I know people are going to say she survived for a while this she should scale, but they said the laser will absolutely kill her and despite Sol having a 0% chance to win his chances of winning became infinite because his attack with infinite, so she shouldn’t scale they make it clear the attack absolutely was going to obliterate her and it did.

A majority of this is pretty irrelevant, and, yeah, she did give up. That is precisely Axl’s dialogue, and his tears reminded her of Will, especially since he used the last of her power to swap places with Megumi, erasing her as Axl said it would.

 

[Antvasima]

Speed stuff is a separate topic, please make a thread discussing this another time.

Maybe we can take the opportunity to discuss the issue after the other parts of this thread have been handled?

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, thank you to everybody who are helping out.

 

[Overlord775]

They don’t all scale to Sol. Many characters have fought I-no, Ky, and a nearly finished Justice. They backscale immensely, but they aren’t beyond infinitely weaker. Or if the downgrade goes through not hundreds of times weaker.

not sure about I-No, but Ky holds back against people, not even going all out against Sol as stated by the latter

also, scaling to Justice is sketchy at best considering how Sol is canonically the one who defeated her

I don’t recall that ever being stated, just her weak point was her hand.

Then you remember wrongly, because it is clearly what they are talking about, Sol needed to hit her weakpoint because he needed to bypass her regenerative capabilities

Um, where is that said?

"Sol and Justice, just by existing simultaneously, will erase everything in the universe by merging Backyard, a higher-dimension, and the world, destroying even the universe's space itself, this is also incluiding the Underworld Hill, A pseudo-living space formed in the Backyard that is beyond space-time as a whole."

Note that the first part doesn't even give proof of it being higher dimensional, besides that would just be 4-D

Underworld Hill is the only thing here proved to be Low 1-C/trascendant of space-time

 

[Keeweed]

“Justice is sketchy at best considering how Sol is canonically the one who defeated her”

He canonically beat them when they were fully remade and demolished them. But multiple characters fight them during the creation process. Obviously they are inferior, that’s what I said, but to say they literally shouldn’t scale is ridiculous. They have much more of a reason to backscale then to not scale at all.

 

[Keeweed]

Responding to Milky and Ikelagg

You say he referring to the people dying when the moon gets close but 1) At 7:17 in the video I posted we very clearly see Ky panic and become scared at the sight of the moon approaching, 2) Humanity isn’t mentioned in that scene and when they are mentioned Ky just lets Sol completely reject it and from their perspectives completely doom it (when Jack-o was going to erase herself).


I-no put the moon there to threaten Ky, she says it is her ultimatum to him, it wouldn’t make any sense for it to be a threat to something not even mentioned in that scene versus to the character that is clearly threatened by it.

At 27:20 Ky says I-no has regenerative abilities, this is in response to Sol’s plan. Sol then says he needs to hit the weak point. How is it not obvious that he needs to hit the weak point because of the regeneration.

At 30:20 I-no notices she’s completely screwed and this is before Axel talked to her. She was also shattering apart before Axel talked to her too.

And at 30:36, once again before Axel talked to her, she wonders why he has a weapon that easily kill her when he never would have needed it before.

She knew she was completely screwed well before Axel talked with her.

 

[Joycap]

I also say this as a casual observer and not a player of this series when I just simply ask 'If they're not 1-C, what are they?'

As in, key nodes for physicality. It's a question people should be asking, and they aren't for whatever reason.

It's something I asked way back in one of the Pokemon downgrade to planetary threads (you know the one...) and people were pointing out 900x gaps in Galaxy-level subtiers. Dunno how this would apply to tier 1, if nothing else.

 

[Keeweed]

I know GG used to be 4-B for scaling to black holes, but black hole standards have become vastly tighter since then. The next best feat I can think of is high 6-A (the 5-C one is from a instant kill and I don’t know why GG treats them as canon when no other fighting game treats their finishers or even their super moves as canon (unless stated)).

 

[Overlord775]

“Justice is sketchy at best considering how Sol is canonically the one who defeated her”

He canonically beat them when they were fully remade and demolished them. But multiple characters fight them during the creation process. Obviously they are inferior, that’s what I said, but to say they literally shouldn’t scale is ridiculous. They have much more of a reason to backscale then to not scale at all.

i don't think we are referring to the same thing, i was referring to the og Guilty Gear game

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Will respond later.

 

[Keeweed]

Yeah that’s what I was referring to. GG xx has a characters fight I-no and Justice, with some characters getting in the way of I-no’s plans and a not fully made Justice needing to completely flee. I don’t think the characters shouldn’t scale in anyway.

 

[Keeweed]

Oh wait, the straight original? I mean, they fight them in GG xx and sometimes throughout the rest of the series. The only thing I can think that is super big from the og one is Ky being above even Sol a bit and Sol destroying Justice. But Justice returns in xx and people fight them, just when they are needing repairs. But the creator views them as combat usuable and somewhat close to being complete.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Then you remember wrongly, because it is clearly what they are talking about, Sol needed to hit her weakpoint because he needed to bypass her regenerative capabilities

Okay.

"Sol and Justice, just by existing simultaneously, will erase everything in the universe by merging Backyard, a higher-dimension, and the world, destroying even the universe's space itself, this is also incluiding the Underworld Hill, A pseudo-living space formed in the Backyard that is beyond space-time as a whole."

Note that the first part doesn't even give proof of it being higher dimensional, besides that would just be 4-D

Underworld Hill is the only thing here proved to be Low 1-C/trascendant of space-time

Okay, I see the dilemma, that’s the old justification, that apparently just never got updated. I don’t know why this is, considering I-No’s profile, which I personally edited, describes the ENTIRE Backyard as Low 1-C, which it is, especially since Daisuke repeatedly states the relationship is like a computer (the universe) and the software (the higher-dimensional Backyard).

And at 30:36, once again before Axel talked to her, she wonders why he has a weapon that easily kill her when he never would have needed it before.

Yeah, I don’t see how you think that considering her exact dialogue was “You were indestructible. There’s no way you could ever need a weapon like that. So why the hell did you make it?”, pretty clearly referring that it had to hit her in her weak spot to do it, in which no one but Nagoryuki could spot. Her being begged to remember is precisely what made her switch places with Megumi, and erasing her.

also, scaling to Justice is sketchy at best considering how Sol is canonically the one who defeated her

Kliff fought Justice 17 times, that doesn’t sound like a very accurate argument to make.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

At 7:17 in the video I posted we very clearly see Ky panic and become scared at the sight of the moon approaching,

He looks at the moon for a total of 3 seconds for calling it a trick, and saying how logical improbable it is. Regardless, why does this when matter? It’s strictly a hax feat, nothing to do with physicals, which I don’t think anyone argued.