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Ok so...hi, I'm (sort of) new here and I have questions on some things, a couple are VERY specific while others are more broad so I hope at least some of you will answer
(expecially after going through thecomically overcomplicated process of actually registering 2 accounts while having to confirm BOTH through different means...seriously wtf...MY DIGITAL ID CARD gave me less trouble...and I'm italian...beurocracy here is beyond stupid)
Ok actually it wasn't THAT bad, it didn't force me to randomly use Discord like it says in the guide so I apologize.
Now...salt aside...
For a bit of context: even though I never created an account before, I HAVE been reading profiles/threads on the wiki (99% of the time about characters/verses I know and like) for years as a sort of "spectator" when I wanted to kill some time (what can I say, I enjoy spectating the madness that are most arguments, also I do like "vs stuff" anyway) so I'm decently familiar with most of the terminology and standards of the wiki...though some things I do not get....which is why this post was born.
Even after creating this account I'm probably going to largely keep up with my usual "spectator mode" after this thread concludes (mainly due to the university being...a non trivial time investiment) though I might pop into (or even create) a couple threads from time to time.
Also keep in mind that a few of these questions only come from things I saw a couple users write in a thread or 2 so I'm not even 100% sure if that's how they actually work.
Maybe 1 or 2 of these could be answered by digging deep into specific pages, if that's the case feel free to just point me to those
SO here we go then:
1)Overlord:
Why would Ainz not be "eligible" for his tier's "strongest of each tier" discussion/matches when the ONLY thing on his profile that doesn't scale is his physical strength...which is simply not relevant since he wouldn't use it...like...ever (excluding <Perfect Warrior>, which is a moot point for obvious reasons) in a situation when he isn't 100% sure that his opponent is not a threat (so he needs information which...by this wiki's standards...he doesn't have).
I mean the guy...skeleton...thing...can teleport with a thought, summon hordes of monsters (many weaker ones and a few comparable ones as shown in the bonus volume and in volume 14), blast people with huge AoEs of comparable AP and more, so I don't see a reason why he shouldn't qualify when he can clearly hold his own WITHOUT HAX against fighters that are (in canon) comparable to his strongest magic (though it's not what he's specialized in...that's the way all of his serious fights work since anyone comparable to him in his verse and back in Yggdrasil is resistent/immune to his hax)
To clarify...I'm not saying he should be in the top 5 of his tier, I honestly have no idea if he should or not... all I'm saying is that I can't see why he can't be considered a "true" Low 7-C character.
2)One Piece:
Wasn't Haki accepted to resist all DF offensive abilities (instead of just Law's fruit like it says rn on the haki page)? Isn't it a bit weird that right now it works like "ok so Haki allows you to touch the true body of logia users...but also protects you from this 1 and very specific fruit's effect and nothing else"?
3)Stat equal?:
Why are stat equalized matches not added? You already add speed equal matches, you just need to say that the specific win/loss happened when stats were equalized.
After all, the tiering is useful...but it isn't the end-all be-all, authors are VERY prone to inconsistencies in their drawings or just their portrayal of a particular character's stats and I've seen (and you here reading HAVE seen that as well, likely WAY more than me) MANY verses jump up and down MANY tiers MANY times WITHOUT new feats because, ultimately, what you are calculating here is subjective, every single calc, statement and scaling that doesn't belong to the "The real world" page can get different results depending on the method used, the numerous assumptions made, what you consider a "real" feat and what you consider an outlier.
Now I'm not saying calcs and tiers are useless...far from it...they do provide the most consistent/precise idea for who is accepted by the wiki to be stronger/faster/tougher than whothis week and as such they often give "winconditions" that allow for a winner to be picked. However, due to their nature of NEVER being "perfect", or even "stable" sometimes, I'd say allowing stat equalized matches to also be added doesn't defeat the wiki's purpose, nor does it invalidate the concept of tiering, all it would do is expand on the possibility for more interesting fights, while giving these fights the legitimacy of: "hey, if those 2 were to end up in the same tier and could fight eachother this would be the winner" added officially on the profile, which is no different than what constantly happens in this wiki: "hey, if those 2 were to end up in the same universe and could fight eachother this would be the winner". On top of that, stat equalized matches would be nearly permanent since they wouldn't care about tier shifts
Now obviously it would require very well defined rules and standards but if speed equal can work, stat equal can 100% also work.
4)Persona...mostly 5:
As a disclaimer I only know what happens in Persona 5 so apologies if what I'm saying sounds stupid but...why is the creation of a palace (and the "universes" in there...which...I fail to see how every palace can even qualify as such) not counted as...well...creation feats (which, if I'm not mistaken, isn't considered an AP feat here but rather creation "hax"...to which I agree with btw). Idk, I guess I just find it a bit wierd to see a random creepy volleyball coach with obviously no powers in the "real world" somehow being able to destroy the universe. Also I just thought about this...how do their matches work? Do they find their opponent in some "make believe brain world" or do you assume they can somehow freely use their powers in the "real world"?
5)Pokemon:
Why do pokemon have access to all their abilities and moves when this goes against all canon material? (at least the abilities part, I can accept the moves thing to an extent)
6)Naruto:
Blatantly...wtf is a paralisys jutsu and when has it EVER been used in canon? I have read the entire manga multiple times and I am pretty sure it wasn't in there. The only mention I could find is the random image link on the various profiles here referencing...something I guess...still...no one ever used it in canon to my knowledge meaning it's at least out of character for...the entire roster so...what's up with that? Also, a funny thing I found is that at least 1 key in Naruto's profile (early part 2 iirc) includes it...TWICE
7)Still Naruto:
Now this may paint me as a Naruto hater (which I am not, I love part 1 and "up to Pain/early war part 2"...later stuff is unga-bunga random nonsense powers/powerups but still enjoyable) but I feel like I have to ask...EVERY genjutsu is explained in canon to work via messing with your chakra flow...which is an actual thing phisically existing in the bodies of Naruto characters, with actual organs/bodyparts regulating and controlling it to boot...so...why would it ever affect someone from a verse that doesn't have a somewhat similar phisical thing powering their supernatural abilities? Wasn't the standard for verse equalization something like "they have to be similar to a decent extent in order to be equalized"?
8)The real world:
Now this I just find funny but...Why are there opponents of "The real world" verse? It's a half serious question...I just find it hilarious.
9)Re-matches:
Can you re-make matches (same keys/tiers and all) that are already on a character win/loss record even if not much changed? You see I usually agree with the outcome of most fights I see listed on the profiles and those that I don't, I can either see the opposition's reasons or just assume there's some weird BS ruling/interpretation of the powers that I'm not aware of...However there is 1 match in particular (at least...that I can think of right now) that I 100% disagree with so I'm curious if there's anything I can do to at least argue about it...if I end up being convinced that ithe outcome was correct then that means there was no problem to begin with so all is well regardeless.
10)League of Legends:
If you don't use in-game logic/mechanics for LoL profiles why do they get specific tiers, powers and abilities that only appear in the game? (for example many champs that have never met Garen in lore STILL scale as "can fight Garen and similarly powerful champions")
Is it because the profiles are still (sorry to say this) quite the clusterfuck of old and new lore and still need to be updated?
(I might end up regretting this as it may result in quite the heavy nerf on some of my fav. champions like Camille, Fiora, Tham Kench, Jax and others...not that it matters though since no one makes matches with them)
11)Layers vs higher resistence/potency:
What's the difference between layers of resistance/potency and just higher resistance/potency? (to hax since I believe that's the only thing this applies to)
From what I could see in some vs threads you guys define "layers" of both potency and resistance by saying stuff like "ok so mindhax A worked on character X who resisted mindhax B that bypassed charcter Y's resistance to a third mindhax that didn't work on Y but did on a third person with no known resistance so mindhax A has 3 layers while B only has 2" (may be 2 layers and 1 but I hope you see my point regardeless) but you also somehow define potency. Isn't this the same as saying A has higher potency than B? Is potency only linked to how many people it can affect within that "layer"?
There should be more but I either can't think of them right now or are simply way too specific to be included and I don't want to make this even longer than it already is so worst case I'll do a part 2.
Thank you all for reading and (hopefully) responding
(expecially after going through the
Ok actually it wasn't THAT bad, it didn't force me to randomly use Discord like it says in the guide so I apologize.
Now...salt aside...
For a bit of context: even though I never created an account before, I HAVE been reading profiles/threads on the wiki (99% of the time about characters/verses I know and like) for years as a sort of "spectator" when I wanted to kill some time (what can I say, I enjoy spectating the madness that are most arguments, also I do like "vs stuff" anyway) so I'm decently familiar with most of the terminology and standards of the wiki...though some things I do not get....which is why this post was born.
Even after creating this account I'm probably going to largely keep up with my usual "spectator mode" after this thread concludes (mainly due to the university being...a non trivial time investiment) though I might pop into (or even create) a couple threads from time to time.
Also keep in mind that a few of these questions only come from things I saw a couple users write in a thread or 2 so I'm not even 100% sure if that's how they actually work.
Maybe 1 or 2 of these could be answered by digging deep into specific pages, if that's the case feel free to just point me to those
SO here we go then:
1)Overlord:
Why would Ainz not be "eligible" for his tier's "strongest of each tier" discussion/matches when the ONLY thing on his profile that doesn't scale is his physical strength...which is simply not relevant since he wouldn't use it...like...ever (excluding <Perfect Warrior>, which is a moot point for obvious reasons) in a situation when he isn't 100% sure that his opponent is not a threat (so he needs information which...by this wiki's standards...he doesn't have).
I mean the guy...skeleton...thing...can teleport with a thought, summon hordes of monsters (many weaker ones and a few comparable ones as shown in the bonus volume and in volume 14), blast people with huge AoEs of comparable AP and more, so I don't see a reason why he shouldn't qualify when he can clearly hold his own WITHOUT HAX against fighters that are (in canon) comparable to his strongest magic (though it's not what he's specialized in...that's the way all of his serious fights work since anyone comparable to him in his verse and back in Yggdrasil is resistent/immune to his hax)
To clarify...I'm not saying he should be in the top 5 of his tier, I honestly have no idea if he should or not... all I'm saying is that I can't see why he can't be considered a "true" Low 7-C character.
2)One Piece:
Wasn't Haki accepted to resist all DF offensive abilities (instead of just Law's fruit like it says rn on the haki page)? Isn't it a bit weird that right now it works like "ok so Haki allows you to touch the true body of logia users...but also protects you from this 1 and very specific fruit's effect and nothing else"?
3)Stat equal?:
Why are stat equalized matches not added? You already add speed equal matches, you just need to say that the specific win/loss happened when stats were equalized.
After all, the tiering is useful...but it isn't the end-all be-all, authors are VERY prone to inconsistencies in their drawings or just their portrayal of a particular character's stats and I've seen (and you here reading HAVE seen that as well, likely WAY more than me) MANY verses jump up and down MANY tiers MANY times WITHOUT new feats because, ultimately, what you are calculating here is subjective, every single calc, statement and scaling that doesn't belong to the "The real world" page can get different results depending on the method used, the numerous assumptions made, what you consider a "real" feat and what you consider an outlier.
Now I'm not saying calcs and tiers are useless...far from it...they do provide the most consistent/precise idea for who is accepted by the wiki to be stronger/faster/tougher than who
Now obviously it would require very well defined rules and standards but if speed equal can work, stat equal can 100% also work.
4)Persona...mostly 5:
As a disclaimer I only know what happens in Persona 5 so apologies if what I'm saying sounds stupid but...why is the creation of a palace (and the "universes" in there...which...I fail to see how every palace can even qualify as such) not counted as...well...creation feats (which, if I'm not mistaken, isn't considered an AP feat here but rather creation "hax"...to which I agree with btw). Idk, I guess I just find it a bit wierd to see a random creepy volleyball coach with obviously no powers in the "real world" somehow being able to destroy the universe. Also I just thought about this...how do their matches work? Do they find their opponent in some "make believe brain world" or do you assume they can somehow freely use their powers in the "real world"?
5)Pokemon:
Why do pokemon have access to all their abilities and moves when this goes against all canon material? (at least the abilities part, I can accept the moves thing to an extent)
6)Naruto:
Blatantly...wtf is a paralisys jutsu and when has it EVER been used in canon? I have read the entire manga multiple times and I am pretty sure it wasn't in there. The only mention I could find is the random image link on the various profiles here referencing...something I guess...still...no one ever used it in canon to my knowledge meaning it's at least out of character for...the entire roster so...what's up with that? Also, a funny thing I found is that at least 1 key in Naruto's profile (early part 2 iirc) includes it...TWICE
7)Still Naruto:
Now this may paint me as a Naruto hater (which I am not, I love part 1 and "up to Pain/early war part 2"...later stuff is unga-bunga random nonsense powers/powerups but still enjoyable) but I feel like I have to ask...EVERY genjutsu is explained in canon to work via messing with your chakra flow...which is an actual thing phisically existing in the bodies of Naruto characters, with actual organs/bodyparts regulating and controlling it to boot...so...why would it ever affect someone from a verse that doesn't have a somewhat similar phisical thing powering their supernatural abilities? Wasn't the standard for verse equalization something like "they have to be similar to a decent extent in order to be equalized"?
8)The real world:
Now this I just find funny but...Why are there opponents of "The real world" verse? It's a half serious question...I just find it hilarious.
9)Re-matches:
Can you re-make matches (same keys/tiers and all) that are already on a character win/loss record even if not much changed? You see I usually agree with the outcome of most fights I see listed on the profiles and those that I don't, I can either see the opposition's reasons or just assume there's some weird BS ruling/interpretation of the powers that I'm not aware of...However there is 1 match in particular (at least...that I can think of right now) that I 100% disagree with so I'm curious if there's anything I can do to at least argue about it...if I end up being convinced that ithe outcome was correct then that means there was no problem to begin with so all is well regardeless.
10)League of Legends:
If you don't use in-game logic/mechanics for LoL profiles why do they get specific tiers, powers and abilities that only appear in the game? (for example many champs that have never met Garen in lore STILL scale as "can fight Garen and similarly powerful champions")
Is it because the profiles are still (sorry to say this) quite the clusterfuck of old and new lore and still need to be updated?
(I might end up regretting this as it may result in quite the heavy nerf on some of my fav. champions like Camille, Fiora, Tham Kench, Jax and others...not that it matters though since no one makes matches with them)
11)Layers vs higher resistence/potency:
What's the difference between layers of resistance/potency and just higher resistance/potency? (to hax since I believe that's the only thing this applies to)
From what I could see in some vs threads you guys define "layers" of both potency and resistance by saying stuff like "ok so mindhax A worked on character X who resisted mindhax B that bypassed charcter Y's resistance to a third mindhax that didn't work on Y but did on a third person with no known resistance so mindhax A has 3 layers while B only has 2" (may be 2 layers and 1 but I hope you see my point regardeless) but you also somehow define potency. Isn't this the same as saying A has higher potency than B? Is potency only linked to how many people it can affect within that "layer"?
There should be more but I either can't think of them right now or are simply way too specific to be included and I don't want to make this even longer than it already is so worst case I'll do a part 2.
Thank you all for reading and (hopefully) responding