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Theglassman12

VS Battles
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So going through more of the pages on the DBH verse, I'm noticing some more questionable stuff being applied to the pages, whether it's the lack of explanation, or just stretching scans to argue for an ability when there's little to no statements to prove that ability's a thing.

Dark Ki: (DONE)

Life Manipulation
: Why is this being argued as life manipulation as opposed to resurrection? Using ki to revive someone like Broly is just textbook definition of resurrection. ACCEPTED

Law and Physics hax
: So I noticed the thread used to add these two abilities seem to skip some important context. First off the new universe was made through a combination of time power and dark demon realm, not dark ki on its own. The second argument being the demon world has more magic influence than science, this was discussed in depth but to be short, nothing about magic having more influence than science remotely means they warp the physics and law of the demon world, especially when the world already existed prior to the demon being banished there. By this logic every Harry Potter character has physics and law hax because the wizarding world has more magic influence than science. (Time power and Dark Demon Realm power combined gets this)

Resistance to Sealing and BFR:
So assuming this is the scatter attack, can I ask how exactly they resist being sealed and BFR'd away when it's done via opening a portal and kicking them in? Because arguing they resist the effects of dark ki when the context for this dark ki ability is just opening a door and kicking them in isn't the same as the mind hax/corruption stuff the dark ki's always been known for. ACCEPTED

Chaos Manipulation
: Ok, what part of "disastrous force" and mechikabura's energy messing with the planet somehow means they literally control chaos itself? By this logic literally every single dragon ball character who can destroy a planet has chaos manipulation because they're a disastrous force that can threaten the world. Unless we're treating this as the same as nuking or affecting timelines somehow equates to causality and fate hax which is just stupid in of itself. ACCEPTED

Evil Ki: (DONE)

Paralysis Inducement:
The scan mostly shows the evil aura binding the person like a rope, not inflicting paralysis. ACCEPTED

Demon Physiology: (DONE)

Acausality Type 1 and 4:
Not exactly a full debunk but moreso a question, why is this labeled a "higher degree" when nothing in the scans really indicate that they have higher degrees of type 1 and 4 acausality? Just normal type 1 and 4 evidence. ACCEPTED

Incorporeality:
This isn't incorporeal, being incorporeal implies that they naturally lack a physical body to begin with, this is just them being dead. ACCEPTED

Low godly regen:
Soooo where's the part that explains them regenerating? Because Mechi absorbing them doesn't really imply their entire physical form got erased, nor does the aftermath of them being fine really explain how they're back beyond the fact that they're back. Hell one of the scans Towa's body is still intact even when she's dead. So where exactly is the regen? Because if this is all there is then low godly should be nuked. TYPE 4 IMMORTALITY AT BEST

Keysword: (DONE)

Paralysis Inducement:
So using the chains to hold them down, which the scans btw are just visual showings means they have paralysis inducement? What about this remotely implies they inflict paralysis as opposed to the fact that the chains themselves are just holding them in place? Nothing about it remotely mentions they lose the ability to move. ACCEPTED

Weapon Creation and Duplication
: Which one is it? Either it makes numerous weapons or it duplicates itself, you can't have both. DUPLICATION STAYS

Enhanced Power Null and Purification:
Why is the same scan being used for both Dormant and Awakened key? Especially when we have scans in the Dormant tabber that shows it working on Mechi, so why is this being argued as better power null and purification? ACCEPTED

Incorporeal and Intangibility:
Same as the demon physiology one, if there's nothing to imply the keysword lacked a physical form in the first place why would it have incorporeal in the first place? Also is there like anything that implies it turned into energy beyond the visuals because it glowing doesn't really tell me anything. INTANGIBILITY STAYS

Empowerment:
This ability is for characters who get boosts based on what they're aligned for, the keysword being effective against demonic powers doesn't really mean empowerment unless lex luthor using kryptonite somehow means he's empowered. ACCEPTED

Ki/Energy/Life Absorption:
Ignoring how the scan is only in japanese with no translation of what it says, the game itself implies they just lose stamina by just fighting and taking damage, not that they have it absorbed from them. Unless there's some explicit statements that the keysword can absorb all 3 of these things I don't see why this should be on the page. ACCEPTED

Holy Manipulation:
None of the scans remotely mentions its holy in nature, just that it can fight off the demonic powers. ACCEPTED

Resistance to Holy and Light:
Why would this grant resistance to both of these abilities? There's no statements that it's able to resist its light powers, plus no mention of holy powers whatsoever. ACCEPTED

Resistance to all Demonic Abilities:
So why is this in the Dormant Key tabber when the scan being shown literally has the awakened keysword in display? Doesn't look right to me. ACCEPTED

Resisting Status effects and Devilmite beam:
So ignoring how this is a literal sword so unless you can actually target weapons with status effects or there's proof that the keysword lets people not be affected by this, why the hell does it resist the Devilmite beam when it literally has no malice due to being an inanimate object? Plus the scans do not show anything that implies the characters can resist it, just that it's in the game and can take out anyone that's hit by it. So unless the keysword itself is stated to repel the effects of the devilmite beam or anything that implies resistance, this should go. This also applies to everyone else in the verse that resists the devilmite beam for the same reason. ACCEPTED

Chaos Ball: (DONE)

Causality, Fate, Text, Chaos, Darkness, Quantum, Space and Time hax:
Ok this is a big one, so nothing in the pages that have this particular move remotely implies that it consuming the multiverse means that it has all of these abilities. Chaos hax, assuming that it's from the same reason as dark ki, is stupid beyond relief, as it's the same level of logic as affecting space and time means you affect causality and fate itself, same applies to Causality and Fate hax as nothing about the black hole implies this is happening. Darkness doesn't really say much here, just that it's leaving people in the darkness, especially with people resisting it as nothing implies the darkness does anything to them. Space and Time manipulation for absorbing and destroying the multiverse idk why the hell this is classified as space-time hax, as this is just an AP feat for the black hole destroying everything, not them controlling or warping space and time. Text manipulation is completely unjustified as nothing about the black hole is remotely implied to warp the time scrolls. By this logic everyone that can blow up a planet has plant, earth, magma, life, etc. manipulation for blowing it up. Nothing about this makes any sense. Lastly the Quantum hax, from what I can gather, this is only here because it's a black hole... despite the fact we've never done that for anyone who can make a black hole on this site. So this should be nuked unless there actually exists some evidence that quantum particles are being manipulated. ACCEPTED

Chronoa: (DONE)

Power Nullification:
Scan literally just mentions purification, not power nulling dark ki. The rest just mentions nullifying stat amping or stat reducing techniques from her foes so this should be a limited Power Null as it's with specific techniques. ACCEPTED

Everyone: (DONE)

Energy/Life/Ki absorption:
Where's the scans to suggest they can do this? Because I don't recall them being able to use this willy nilly. ACCEPTED

Space-Time Manipulation via powering up to SSJ4:
So why is this labeled as space time manipulation as Goku literally says he doesn't know what impact it will have on time, plus this is heavily implied to be more of an AP feat rather than messing with space and time by warping it. ACCEPTED

Time Patrol: (DONE)

Resistance to Heat, Ice, Fire, Air, Earth, and Electricity attacks:
Why is them tanking elemental attacks from the Dragons from GT labeled as a resistance? Nothing about these moves are remotely implied to be lethal on contact unless in Dragon Ball, getting hit by these means you die instantly, which I'd like to see scans of, but this is ridiculous. HEAT ICE AND ELECTRICITY CAN STAY

Vegetas and Gokus: (DONE)

Resistance to Soul Manipulation:
The only argument for the resistance is for tanking shroom's attacks, and looking at the scan shows the exact opposite, they got their souls reaped a bit and they were affected. So this should be removed. IT CAN SCALE TO SSJ4 VIA GOHAN

Towa: (DONE)

Paralysis:
The scans are a bit too vague, plus the one with goku makes it implied the attack just knocks them out as opposed to paralysis so some clarifications on this would be nice. ELECTRICITY MANIPULATION INSTEAD

Fu: (DONE)

Paralysis Inducement:
Yeah not seeing paralysis here, same with the evil ki scan, it just looks like he's making an energy whip to hold them down, not literally having them freeze on the spot. ACCEPTED

Chamel: (DONE)

Reactive Evolution:
This isn't reactive evolution, getting more power in response to getting hurt sounds like accelerated development as opposed to RE. ACCEPTED

Super and Dark Shenron: (DONE)

Advanced Dark Ki:
What part of this implies advanced level dark ki? The description only gives basic level dark ki at best. ACCEPTED

Probability hax:
Any scans for this? Because it doesn't really elaborate on anything, plus this could just be another CI thing where it's game mechanics or just an AOE move, which doesn't mean he warps probability to always hit ala Gurren Lagann. ACCEPTED

Purification:
Nullifying abilities isn't purification, that's just power nulling. ACCEPTED

Paralysis Inducement:
Again, same as the keysword, this isn't literal inflicting paralysis on others, this is just holding them in place by using chains. ACCEPTED

Law Manipulation:
So where's the statement that Shenron can rewrite laws with his wishes? Last time I checked I don't recall that being stated for Shenron in Fusion Reborn, just that he was incapable of doing anything about Janemba's shenanigans. POSSIBLY LAW HAX IS FINE

Lagss: (DONE)

Petrification:
Turning someone into glass isn't petrifying, petrification is turning someone into stone, that's the whole point of petrification. This is just transmutation. ACCEPTED

Macro-Quantum Manipulation:
Why are we assuming manipulating particles automatically means macro quantum particles when particles can also mean specks or grains? At best this is just normal Matter manipulation, not Macro-Quantum unless Quarks are being manipulated by her powers. ACCEPTED

Kamioren: (DONE)

Energy Manipulation and Matter manipulation:
This sounds like shapeshifting if he's turning himself into energy. ACCEPTED

Negating Zamasu's regen and immortality:
This applies to everyone in the Core Army but this doesn't line up. We have Lagss negging Zamasu's regen and immortality from this scene, but with everyone that has universe tree powers, they have it for negging Zamasu, despite him being negged by Lagss? Which one happened first because whichever one happened first shouldn't have regen and immortality negation if he's completely fine for the next "death". LAGSS' NEGATION LEAVES

Hearts: (DONE)

Madness/Empathic/Morality hax:
Is there any elaboration on this? Because I don't see madness hax or morality hax from releasing people's desires. Empathic I can see but the others I don't. ACCEPTED

Type 5 Immortality:
Yeah none of the scans remotely imply that they're unbound by conventional life and death, especially when we have Frieza say that they're already dead and erasing their souls means they stay dead. This is at best Type 7 immortality. ACCEPTED

Resistance to Disease and Death hax:
Nothing is said in the two scans that they're immune to viruses, nor does it say that death spells don't work on them. Just that they're dead, which again is just type 7 immortality. ACCEPTED

Zamasu: (DONE)

High Godly regeneration and Abstract Existence:
Thanks to the recent revisions these needs to be changed to suit the DBS canon since it's stemmed from the same arguments, plus the fact he's not a concept, but his own thoughts manifested just makes his regen mid godly at best. HIGH GODLY STAYS BUT ON A HISTORICAL LEVEL ERASURE

Bardock: (DONE)

Acausality:
Being a singularity would give him type 2 acausality, not type 1 or 4. ACCEPTED


AGREE:
11 (Fujiwara, Tarang, Delta, Planck, Maverick, Emirp, MGQScaler, StrymULTRA, Shanks, Larssx, AKUTO)

DISAGREE: 1 (godofice [physics and law hax])

NEUTRAL:
 
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Looks good (since I did research a fair bit of this on my own time), but I have two things to say:

-The Life/Ki/Energy absorption is from the "Draw" skill, which absorbs life energy. However, not everyone can use it, and it has no reason to be ki/energy absorption (though that could stay for characters like Goku since they do absorb the Spirit Bomb's energy... not really combat applicable though).

-Kamioren turning into energy would be intangibility, assuming that isn't already on his profile.
 
@godofice No the sorcerers never made the Demon Realm, the space they existed in was always there given they said they were sealed in that space, and then made the demon world. Had they actually made the demon world from scratch they would've said they were in a void and then they made everything down to its laws being different.
 
@godofice No the sorcerers never made the Demon Realm, the space they existed in was always there given they said they were sealed in that space, and then made the demon world. Had they actually made the demon world from scratch they would've said they were in a void and then they made everything down to its laws being different.
What? It says that there’s a space where the sorcessors were imprisoned. Then the dark demon realm is a world built by those same sorcessors all this implies is that they were sorcessors that were originally imprisoned and later were unimprisoned thus making the dark demon realm and I don’t see why all the rest of what you said would need to be said
 
What? It says that there’s a space where the sorcessors were imprisoned. Then the dark demon realm is a world built by those same sorcessors all this implies is that they were sorcessors that were originally imprisoned and later were unimprisoned thus making the dark demon realm and I don’t see why all the rest of what you said would need to be said
What would be the point of bringing up their imprisonment if not to imply that they created a new world where they were imprisoned? It'd be a non-sequitur otherwise.
 
Well the sorcessors were probably known for being imprisoned and then later made a world no need to overcomplicate it
Yes, "probably". We don't just assume what you're saying is true, the text is clearly meant to imply that the sorcerers simply made a new world where they were imprisoned.
 
Actually, why is this even a debate? This point has nothing to do with Glass' original point (that being that the Demon Realm doesn't even really have different laws or physics).
 
I have school so the amount I will be able to contribute to this thread is unknown but as far as the chaos ball goes it gets those abilities from absorbing time which gave it time power and therefore time power haxes
 
For petrification that can probably stay.
Petrification is considered to be a sub-category of transmutation, it forcibly turns the target into a statue of stone or other inorganic material. Generally petrification can be considered to be a very broken ability, as it ignores conventional durability. Being able to withstand a nuke won't exactly save your body from being turned into stone, after all.
 
The demon realm is literally stated to be run by different laws and Fu wouldve made the copy universe either way all the time bird did was speed up the process so it should stay for both reasons nonetheless the scan literally says thats the purpose of it
 
The demon realm is literally stated to be run by different laws and Fu wouldve made the copy universe either way all the time bird did was speed up the process so it should stay for both reasons nonetheless the scan literally says thats the purpose of it
It doesn't say it has different rules, just that magic has more sway than science there. Which is not evidence of different laws.
 
It doesn't say it has different rules, just that magic has more sway than science there. Which is not evidence of different laws.
It compares It to the living world which follows the laws of science compared to the demon realm where the laws of science don’t matter as much that’s a clear indication that’s the laws of science are different and is said to be the polar opposite and even if you wanna ignore all that context for some reason it doesn’t disregard the fact that Fu’s copy universe was made because of dark Ki time power had nothing to do with it being made besides reducing the time as stated by the scan he sends above
 
I’m going to have to agree with @godofice here the scan literally says that the living world is the one of the two that remotely resembles our world r at least sci-fi interpretations
 
It compares It to the living world which follows the laws of science compared to the demon realm where the laws of science don’t matter as much that’s a clear indication that’s the laws of science are different and is said to be the polar opposite and even if you wanna ignore all that context for some reason it doesn’t disregard the fact that Fu’s copy universe was made because of dark Ki time power had nothing to do with it being made besides reducing the time as stated by the scan he sends above
Again, it never says anything about laws. You're just extrapolating that from nothing. Fu making a copy of the universe is just RW/space-time hax, it isn't law/physics hax.
 
Again, it never says anything about laws. You're just extrapolating that from nothing. Fu making a copy of the universe is just RW/space-time hax, it isn't law/physics hax.
it literally compares the 2 and mentions them as polar opposites as a result of that also this scan it quite literally compares the living universe following the laws of science whereas the demon realm doesn’t and fu’s copy universe created a rule where anything that is destroyed in the fake universe is also destroyed in the original universe
 
it literally compares the 2 and mentions them as polar opposites as a result of that also this scan it quite literally compares the living universe following the laws of science whereas the demon realm doesn’t and fu’s copy universe created a rule where anything that is destroyed in the fake universe is also destroyed in the original universe

Yeah I can see where the reasoning for this comes from. If “science” here is to be mean like the reality and the rules it goes by in this context.

I think it’s just a weird way they phrased it which could’ve lead to different interpretations though.
 
it literally compares the 2 and mentions them as polar opposites as a result of that also this scan it quite literally compares the living universe following the laws of science whereas the demon realm doesn’t and fu’s copy universe created a rule where anything that is destroyed in the fake universe is also destroyed in the original universe

Okay, so the universes are radically different. Two places can be radically different from each other and not have different laws of physics, does that make sense? Hell, other planets in our own universe would be the polar opposite of Earth, but that doesn't mean they abide by totally different laws of physics.
 
Yeah I can see where the reasoning for this comes from. If “science” here is to be mean like the reality and the rules it goes by in this context.

I think it’s just a weird way they phrased it which could’ve lead to different interpretations though.
Yeah thats the argument
Okay, so the universes are radically different. Two places can be radically different from each other and not have different laws of physics, does that make sense? Hell, other planets in our own universe would be the polar opposite of Earth, but that doesn't mean they abide by totally different laws of physics.
not what the scan says though it legit says the Universe abides by the laws of science and the demon realm doesn’t and instead magic has more authority making them polar opposites as one abides by science one doesn’t I don’t see the confusion
 
Okay, so the universes are radically different. Two places can be radically different from each other and not have different laws of physics, does that make sense? Hell, other planets in our own universe would be the polar opposite of Earth, but that doesn't mean they abide by totally different laws of physics.
I think the point is that the laws of physics in the universe is run by “magic” rather than, ya know actually established scientific laws from the real world.
 
Okay, so the universes are radically different. Two places can be radically different from each other and not have different laws of physics, does that make sense? Hell, other planets in our own universe would be the polar opposite of Earth, but that doesn't mean they abide by totally different laws of physics.
The problem with the planet analogy is that all of those planets resemble “planets” where as the demon realm is explicitly stated not to resemble or even be based of our reality where as the living universe is
 
The problem with the planet analogy is that all of those planets resemble “planets” where as the demon realm is explicitly stated not to resemble or even be based of our reality where as the living universe is
Okay? Literally what does that have to do with the laws of physics.....

Yeah thats the argument

not what the scan says though it legit says the Universe abides by the laws of science and the demon realm doesn’t and instead magic has more authority making them polar opposites as one abides by science one doesn’t I don’t see the confusion
Where does it say laws? You keep saying it says that, but I've read the scans multiple times and haven't seen it... You are, again, extrapolating meaning from nothing. There are multiple ways these statements can be taken, most of which are easier assumptions that "the laws of physics literally just work different there". Occam's Razor is not on your side.
 
Okay? Literally what does that have to do with the laws of physics.....


Where does it say laws? You keep saying it says that, but I've read the scans multiple times and haven't seen it... You are, again, extrapolating meaning from nothing. There are multiple ways these statements can be taken, most of which are easier assumptions that "the laws of physics literally just work different there". Occam's Razor is not on your side.
Well it says the living world abides by science while the demon realm is the polar opposite where magic has more influence then science does I just said laws to make it simpler but you get the same conclusion either way
 
Well it says the living world abides by science while the demon realm is the polar opposite where magic has more influence then science does I just said laws to make it simpler but you get the same conclusion either way
No, you don't. Magic can "have more sway" in ways unrelated to the laws of reality. It could have more sway in the sense that more people there use it, that it's used in place of technology for mundane things, or that the magic used there is stronger than the magic in the normal universe. All of those would be things we assume before the laws of physics shit, as they require less assumptions or leaps in logic.
 
Okay? Literally what does that have to do with the laws of physics.....


Where does it say laws? You keep saying it says that, but I've read the scans multiple times and haven't seen it... You are, again, extrapolating meaning from nothing. There are multiple ways these statements can be taken, most of which are easier assumptions that "the laws of physics literally just work different there". Occam's Razor is not on your side.
My point is more so to do with the not based of reality part, for instance there will come a time when all the stars in our universe will be burnt out you could then say that it does not resemble our reality as it is now but a dark universe in the far off future in a fictional setting would still be based off our reality
 
No, you don't. Magic can "have more sway" in ways unrelated to the laws of reality. It could have more sway in the sense that more people there use it, that it's used in place of technology for mundane things, or that the magic used there is stronger than the magic in the normal universe. All of those would be things we assume before the laws of physics shit, as they require less assumptions or leaps in logic.
It’s referring to science when it says that I’ll literally quote it word for word and color coat it for you

The living world is split into two dimensions described as being 2 sides of a coin. The top half of the universe, overseen by the Kaio and Kaioshin, and run according to science (Or whatever passes for it in the DB world). The bottom half is the Demon Realm, where magic has more sway than science, and where the evil Makaio and Maikaioshin are gods. Despite the two dimensions being polar opposites like this |

IT LITERALLY SAYS they’re polar opposites because one abides by science and one doesn’t it couldn’t be any simpler than that
 
It’s referring to science when it says that I’ll literally quote it word for word and color coat it for you

The living world is split into two dimensions described as being 2 sides of a coin. The top half of the universe, overseen by the Kaio and Kaioshin, and run according to science (Or whatever passes for it in the DB world). The bottom half is the Demon Realm, where magic has more sway than science, and where the evil Makaio and Maikaioshin are gods. Despite the two dimensions being polar opposites like this |

IT LITERALLY SAYS they’re polar opposites because one abides by science and one doesn’t it couldn’t be any simpler than that
Yes... and everything I said above still applies lol
 
Yes... and everything I said above still applies lol
Technology would technically still fall under science unless it’s some type of science breaking technology and Demon realm isn’t even implied to have technology like that it literally differentiates the 2 by describing one as one that abides by science and the other one being the polar opposite and not abiding by it
 
Technology would technically still fall under science unless it’s some type of science breaking technology and Demon realm isn’t even implied to have technology like that it literally differentiates the 2 by describing one as one that abides by science and the other one being the polar opposite and not abiding by it
Yeah, which again, doesn't imply different laws or physics. Just that the two worlds are separated by one using science/technology and the other using magic. I mean, we could realistically give every alternate world that uses magic more than technology this sort of law/physics hax using the same basis, but we obviously don't do that.
 
Yeah, which again, doesn't imply different laws or physics. Just that the two worlds are separated by one using science/technology and the other using magic. I mean, we could realistically give every alternate world that uses magic more than technology this sort of law/physics hax using the same basis, but we obviously don't do that.
No it literally describes them as polar opposites due to living universe following science and the demon realm not following science even compares them to 2 sides of a coin false equivalence once again
 
No it literally describes them as polar opposites due to living universe following science and the demon realm not following science even compares them to 2 sides of a coin false equivalence once again
Quick question, can two things be opposites without having different laws of physics?
 
@godofice That doesn't really mean they controlled different laws and physics in the demon world, you'd need more explicit information like the laws aren't the same or physics is different in the demon world.
I mean there’s a side by side comparison and then after it explains the living universe abiding by science and the demon realm of science not having as much influence it describes it as a polar opposite for that specific reason
Quick question, can two things be opposites without having different laws of physics?
depends on the context but the context here explains what I’m saying
 
@godofice That doesn't really mean they controlled different laws and physics in the demon world, you'd need more explicit information like the laws aren't the same or physics is different in the demon world.
Didn’t they create the demon world though? Cause if the demon world is run more on “magic” rather than “science” which I think the usage of the term is meant to mean like the scientific laws of the universe wouldn’t it inherently mean that the laws around the world are different since they operate under a different system?
 
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