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Changing my vote to neutral with the hypertimeline arguments, gonna wait for the discussion on that to end
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Fuji NEVER Cry [DMC Tier 1 Downgrades Yet Again]
- Thread starter Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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- devil may cry
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Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,354
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- #482
Time to address this.
vsbattles.fandom.com
The First Two Sections
The first two parts of this sandbox are just, 1-to-1 the same arguments again. The DW is infinitely larger than low 2-C and sees it as a line, it contained low 2-C realms as a subset of itself, I fucking get it. Nothing has changed. No new evidence has been provided that these fit the new tier 1 standards, or even the old tier 1 standards.
General Issues with the DW "Embedding" Dimensions
As explained previously, I do not think the mirror world is within the DW, or even low 2-C to begin with. I'll just copy/paste my contentions in the OP, as almost no new evidence in favor of either argument has been brought forth:
For everything else.... Starting with the Realms of Nirvana, the sandbox says these realms are different dimensions; They very clearly aren't, if you actually read the scans. We're supposed to just assume they're different dimensions with their own space-time because.... reasons, I guess? There's the bit about the Realms of Nirvana having distorted flows of time, but our universe page clearly states that a separate flow of time doesn't really prove that a location is its own self-contained universe.
The second part is also pretty bad - The location in question is called "The Void". That's its name, and it's stated to be an infinite abyss. It is then being compared to a place in the DW referred to as an abyss. Do you perhaps see the issue? Nothing actually says these are the same location - they're just described using the same adjective. A small bit of proof of this is how the Void describes the abyss without capitalization - that shows it's using it as a regular adjective and not a proper noun, which means it isn't referring to a specific location. Or, to put it another way, "the white house" is just a house that is white, while "the White House" is something else entirely - capitalization means a lot in english.
Hypertimelines
For starters, the main basis here relies on assuming that the DW has low 2-C structures embedded within itself. As explained above, this isn't true. But even then... I'm not entirely sure what this argument is supposed to be? The DW is a space-time continuum, sure. When the DW gets destroyed, the timeline also collapses, I get that. Except that's just a regular low 2-C feat that doesn't mean anything for higher-dimensionality; If there is an argument to be made for that, then the sandbox sure as hell doesn't explain it. It's not even that the DW's timeline causes other timelines to collapse; After all, this is after it was merged with the HW, so they'd be part of the same space-time. This part is just baffling to me, because it makes a series of claims, some valid and some not, and then insinuates that they must be low 1-C without explaining why.
TL;DR: This is 99% stuff we already all knew, just organized better. The 1% that remains is a whole lot of nothing.
GilverTheProtoAngelo/sandbox
vsbattles.fandom.com
The First Two Sections
The first two parts of this sandbox are just, 1-to-1 the same arguments again. The DW is infinitely larger than low 2-C and sees it as a line, it contained low 2-C realms as a subset of itself, I fucking get it. Nothing has changed. No new evidence has been provided that these fit the new tier 1 standards, or even the old tier 1 standards.
General Issues with the DW "Embedding" Dimensions
As explained previously, I do not think the mirror world is within the DW, or even low 2-C to begin with. I'll just copy/paste my contentions in the OP, as almost no new evidence in favor of either argument has been brought forth:
So what about the new evidence? Well, being stated to "transcend space-time", in a vacuum, is meaningless. We are given 0 explanation as to the nature of this transcendence. The bit about the god of time and space not having power there is interesting, but ultimately runs into another issue - as explained above, if the mirror world is a different space-time, then it isn't really a part of the DW seeing as you have to enter a portal within the mirror world in order to enter the DW at all.
For everything else.... Starting with the Realms of Nirvana, the sandbox says these realms are different dimensions; They very clearly aren't, if you actually read the scans. We're supposed to just assume they're different dimensions with their own space-time because.... reasons, I guess? There's the bit about the Realms of Nirvana having distorted flows of time, but our universe page clearly states that a separate flow of time doesn't really prove that a location is its own self-contained universe.
The second part is also pretty bad - The location in question is called "The Void". That's its name, and it's stated to be an infinite abyss. It is then being compared to a place in the DW referred to as an abyss. Do you perhaps see the issue? Nothing actually says these are the same location - they're just described using the same adjective. A small bit of proof of this is how the Void describes the abyss without capitalization - that shows it's using it as a regular adjective and not a proper noun, which means it isn't referring to a specific location. Or, to put it another way, "the white house" is just a house that is white, while "the White House" is something else entirely - capitalization means a lot in english.
Hypertimelines
For starters, the main basis here relies on assuming that the DW has low 2-C structures embedded within itself. As explained above, this isn't true. But even then... I'm not entirely sure what this argument is supposed to be? The DW is a space-time continuum, sure. When the DW gets destroyed, the timeline also collapses, I get that. Except that's just a regular low 2-C feat that doesn't mean anything for higher-dimensionality; If there is an argument to be made for that, then the sandbox sure as hell doesn't explain it. It's not even that the DW's timeline causes other timelines to collapse; After all, this is after it was merged with the HW, so they'd be part of the same space-time. This part is just baffling to me, because it makes a series of claims, some valid and some not, and then insinuates that they must be low 1-C without explaining why.
TL;DR: This is 99% stuff we already all knew, just organized better. The 1% that remains is a whole lot of nothing.
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1-section :Time to address this.
GilverTheProtoAngelo/sandbox
The First Two Sections
The first two parts of this sandbox are just, 1-to-1 the same arguments again. The DW is infinitely larger than low 2-C and sees it as a line, it contained low 2-C realms as a subset of itself, I fucking get it. Nothing has changed. No new evidence has been provided that these fit the new tier 1 standards, or even the old tier 1 standards.
General Issues with the DW "Embedding" Dimensions
As explained previously, I do not think the mirror world is within the DW, or even low 2-C to begin with. I'll just copy/paste my contentions in the OP, as almost no new evidence in favor of either argument has been brought forth:
So what about the new evidence? Well, being stated to "transcend space-time", in a vacuum, is meaningless. We are given 0 explanation as to the nature of this transcendence. The bit about the god of time and space not having power there is interesting, but ultimately runs into another issue - as explained above, if the mirror world is a different space-time, then it isn't really a part of the DW seeing as you have to enter a portal within the mirror world in order to enter the DW at all.
For everything else.... Starting with the Realms of Nirvana, the sandbox says these realms are different dimensions; They very clearly aren't, if you actually read the scans. We're supposed to just assume they're different dimensions with their own space-time because.... reasons, I guess? There's the bit about the Realms of Nirvana having distorted flows of time, but our universe page clearly states that a separate flow of time doesn't really prove that a location is its own self-contained universe.
The second part is also pretty bad - The location in question is called "The Void". That's its name, and it's stated to be an infinite abyss. It is then being compared to a place in the DW referred to as an abyss. Do you perhaps see the issue? Nothing actually says these are the same location - they're just described using the same adjective. A small bit of proof of this is how the Void describes the abyss without capitalization - that shows it's using it as a regular adjective and not a proper noun, which means it isn't referring to a specific location. Or, to put it another way, "the white house" is just a house that is white, while "the White House" is something else entirely - capitalization means a lot in english.
Hypertimelines
For starters, the main basis here relies on assuming that the DW has low 2-C structures embedded within itself. As explained above, this isn't true. But even then... I'm not entirely sure what this argument is supposed to be? The DW is a space-time continuum, sure. When the DW gets destroyed, the timeline also collapses, I get that. Except that's just a regular low 2-C feat that doesn't mean anything for higher-dimensionality; If there is an argument to be made for that, then the sandbox sure as hell doesn't explain it. It's not even that the DW's timeline causes other timelines to collapse; After all, this is after it was merged with the HW, so they'd be part of the same space-time. This part is just baffling to me, because it makes a series of claims, some valid and some not, and then insinuates that they must be low 1-C without explaining why.
TL;DR: This is 99% stuff we already all knew, just organized better. The 1% that remains is a whole lot of nothing.
We have went through this point regarding the mirror world time and time again read the supporters’s replies first since you haven’t made a refutation towards their comments yet.
2-section:
Reread the blog and check the links there,first of all the scans verbatim says that there are 9 different ares in the demon world verbatim, each one of those is only accessed via portals to teleport you there as you can see within the linked videos, time is not distorted it resets as you can see there within the scan, the only space time continuum that has a distortion in it is nirvana of the magical mirrors since you use the samsara you fix it and open a rift in order to teleport you to another dimension as you can see here (5:21).
3-section:
The same void is also called the infinite abyss in which we have statements for a race of demons named the abyss being Born there, that is more than indicative of that void being in the demon world I don’t see why is it a point of contention if you did actually read the blog.
The hyper timeline stuff someone else will reply since I have to revise for some exams at the moment along with the rest of the arguments.
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According to our current standards for QS from Tier 2 to 1, you need clues to support that the realm containing theses timelines is bigger in size than 2-A structures to the point that even infinite multipliers on top of the size of that structure are of no relevance to it.
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The core logic is that the Demon World's overarching time treats these dimensionals, realms and parallel universes as objects embeded within its own past, present and future. Like how a regular timeline treats the 3-dimensional aspects as infinitely many continuously divisible slices of itself.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,354
- 10,884
- Thread starter
- #486
DMC has no evidence of that, or if there is, DMC supporters have yet to provide it. With that said, what are your thoughts on the thread?
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Yeah, I don't think the blog is particularly persuasive. The scan being used to claim the world of darkness "trivializes" the human realm actually says the opposite. It does say "there came a ray of light" but the text that comes after this doesn't lend itself to the idea that the human world is smaller, as it continues "The universe was eventually split in two" darkness for demons light for worlds, these two worlds existed together for an eternity. The presence of the word eventually demands that the state of things has changed, the split worlds is a different situation than the ray of light.
Perhaps the light started as a ray, but "eventually" the world split in two, resulting in two distinct opposite realms. I think this is very weak evidence for saying Darkness is infinitely greater than Light, and the narration doesn't seem to treat it that way, it appears to treat them as opposites that split the world in two. The fact that the entry to the demon world is literally a mirror seems to amplify this. I think this is extremely weak evidence for saying the Darkness is infinitely greater.
The evidence for this isn't very strong. The first claim to a separate temporal axis is just a magical hourglass that can turn back time. The other scan supports this: "The power of the demon world can stop the hands of time." Localized time magic doesn't necessitate a separate temporal axis and I am not sure how, in the first place, we reach the conclusion that the 9 areas of the demon world are separate dimensions, the scan that calls them that doesn't say anything like that.
As for the Demon King palace, it just says it "seems separated from the flow of time." But it doesn't say it has its own separate flow of time.
TL;DR: The demon world and human world appear to be equal in size, the fact that sections of the demon world are called infinite isn't additive since it's already infinite overall (and one can, in fact, have multiple infinite realms in a single infinite realm without higher dimensions). So the crux of this is whether theres solid proof of an additional temporal axis, but it doesn't seem that way to me at all. Time magic doesn't require an additional temporal axis.
Perhaps the light started as a ray, but "eventually" the world split in two, resulting in two distinct opposite realms. I think this is very weak evidence for saying Darkness is infinitely greater than Light, and the narration doesn't seem to treat it that way, it appears to treat them as opposites that split the world in two. The fact that the entry to the demon world is literally a mirror seems to amplify this. I think this is extremely weak evidence for saying the Darkness is infinitely greater.
The evidence for this isn't very strong. The first claim to a separate temporal axis is just a magical hourglass that can turn back time. The other scan supports this: "The power of the demon world can stop the hands of time." Localized time magic doesn't necessitate a separate temporal axis and I am not sure how, in the first place, we reach the conclusion that the 9 areas of the demon world are separate dimensions, the scan that calls them that doesn't say anything like that.
As for the Demon King palace, it just says it "seems separated from the flow of time." But it doesn't say it has its own separate flow of time.
TL;DR: The demon world and human world appear to be equal in size, the fact that sections of the demon world are called infinite isn't additive since it's already infinite overall (and one can, in fact, have multiple infinite realms in a single infinite realm without higher dimensions). So the crux of this is whether theres solid proof of an additional temporal axis, but it doesn't seem that way to me at all. Time magic doesn't require an additional temporal axis.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,354
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- Thread starter
- #488
...I know all of this. There are 9 areas in the DW. What proves that they're low 2-C space-times? What implies that they're separate dimensions? They're not even worth bringing up until you prove those.
I'm saying that the Void and the Abyss are not the same location. They're described using the same words, sure, but "abyss" can be used as a regular word that doesn't denote a specific location; Two places can be an "abyss" without being the same location.
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On an administrative note: This is a staff discussion. It's been sort of a free-for-all for a while, but given the controversy that will not be the case anymore. Low effort jabs or derailing will be removed.
Also, @SYPHe5D. I went through your comments in this thread and it doesn't appear you ever got permission to comment. Do not do so again until you do obtain permission.
I'm going to go through this thread and nuke comments that are completely off-topic (meaning they contain no reference to the ongoing discussion) in order to make this more approachable for other staff members attempting to untangle this.
Also, @SYPHe5D. I went through your comments in this thread and it doesn't appear you ever got permission to comment. Do not do so again until you do obtain permission.
I'm going to go through this thread and nuke comments that are completely off-topic (meaning they contain no reference to the ongoing discussion) in order to make this more approachable for other staff members attempting to untangle this.
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It's not really useful to give 5 or 6 different people free rein just because they are supporters, that's not how our staff discussion rules work, especially since there's like 7 people arguing against 1 person. Surely yourself, KLOL, Elizhaa, and Gilver are sufficient without needing 4 additional non-staff members to inundate Fuji?
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Syphe and Tanin provided most of the scans for Gilver to forge a blog out of. They have as much of a say in this as us.
Hell, one of the blogs that Gilver linked in his sandbox was made entirely by Syphe.
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Me and KLOL506 aren't verse experts here, we're just doing our job as staff and neither is Elizhaa for that matter. And stop spinning it as inundating her, she can argue out her case like anyone else here and she isn't particularly handicapped in that regard.
Gilver is the only one among those 4 that can actually represent DMC here. Tanin and Syphe basically made those blogs that are being argued against. At the very least, these 3 should be allowed to debate their own material here.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,354
- 10,884
- Thread starter
- #496
Uh
I've mostly been the only person arguing in favor of my own points for like, 4 pages straight. Why can't DMC supporters do the same? They can just collaborate on a single comprehensive response at a time if it's really that big of a deal.
I've mostly been the only person arguing in favor of my own points for like, 4 pages straight. Why can't DMC supporters do the same? They can just collaborate on a single comprehensive response at a time if it's really that big of a deal.
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The fact that a supporter can make a blog and not argue it is extremely daft but I should expect that from the site at this point.
Anyway, fine. This is going in circles and everyone here has both given their stance and isn't likely to budge. So, I suggest that both sides make a fully comprehensive post on their stance (and link any relevant blogs) and let staff decide this for good.
Anyway, fine. This is going in circles and everyone here has both given their stance and isn't likely to budge. So, I suggest that both sides make a fully comprehensive post on their stance (and link any relevant blogs) and let staff decide this for good.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,354
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- Thread starter
- #499
We've done this how many times now? The points haven't changed. There is no reason to do this and continue stonewalling this thread.
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The hyper-timeline argument didn't exist on this thread until today. What else would you suggest? By the current state, the thread's completely deadlocked (2 agrees, 2 disagrees and 2 neutral votes) and you're more likely to get staff to comment when they can read two posts succinctly rather than otherwise.
By all means, you're welcome to stay like this until some members can be bothered to read 5 pages though. Ultimately, it's just my suggestion.
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i have been granted permission to comment here by Planck69, the arguments are not the same that’s a dishonesty but since my refutations has been deleted even tho I’m literally named dropped and credited in the blog then sure I won’t comment but before moving any step further we should wait for the supporters or gilver to reply here.
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Fuji literally had you and Serlock defend the downgrade side of the arguments. The only ones really making any contributions now at this point are Gilver, Tanin, Syphe and Planck, who knows where Tony is. I'd say that's more than enough people for this thread.
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I've made one (1) comment participating in the discussion.
and I've begun deleting his comments as well.
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You made two. The one agreeing with Fuji's initial OP, and then you disagreeing with Gilver's sandbox.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,354
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- #506
The hypertimeline part is the only thing that's new, and even then I can barely parse what your argument for it is supposed to be. You've provided more evidence for the DW containing low 2-C realms, sure (ignoring how that evidence is bunk), but the entire point of this thread was to say that just containing a low 2-C structure isn't low 1-C. You're just giving more evidence for debunked logic, which is meaningless.
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Gonna post this again since I was granted permission to comment by Planck69, so again I'd appreciate my comment not being deleted for the second time.
Alternatively you can do a temporary lock then when the blog is ready you can reopen the thread.
At this point it's probably best both sides just kinda shut up, gather their final argument then we'll have a staff vote. I recommend both sides make a final argument that isn't based on the argument of the other side, so instead of being stuck "debunking." both sides get the opportunity to post their final arguments in a well documented fashion before we cast a final vote.
Alternatively you can do a temporary lock then when the blog is ready you can reopen the thread.
At this point it's probably best both sides just kinda shut up, gather their final argument then we'll have a staff vote. I recommend both sides make a final argument that isn't based on the argument of the other side, so instead of being stuck "debunking." both sides get the opportunity to post their final arguments in a well documented fashion before we cast a final vote.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,354
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- #508
Also, why does Planck keep insisting the vote is 2-2-2? It's obviously 3-2-2, even after I made the necessary edits.
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Are you still including Ant?
Well, whatever. The point remains all the same. No other staff will comment but the one's already here unless either side does a final post that doesn't keep engaging one side but just presents their stance and case. That goes the same for Gil and co. That way we only point to two posts for any more staff to see.
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Where'd you get Ant's vote from?
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,354
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- #512
"That seems to make sense to me."
I know yall hate it when I include people's votes when they don't align with your opinions, but this is a very clear cut approval. I'm not removing it.
Serlock_Holmes
He/Him- 3,651
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In the staff thread he said he agreed and no idea why his vote was contended:
Deagonx before you delete this note it that Ant has replied that it counts as him agreeing. He went further into the matter later on in the other staff thread that he didn't know why his vote wasn't counted.
Deagonx before you delete this note it that Ant has replied that it counts as him agreeing. He went further into the matter later on in the other staff thread that he didn't know why his vote wasn't counted.
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Lonkitt didn't vote. Not voting isn't the same as neutral. I guess it doesn't really matter as a neutral vote has no impact either way.
Antvasima said Fuji made sense to him and clarified in the other staff thread that this means he agrees.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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I'm linking the post where he actually received the other sides comment as well.
But it doesn't matter whether you count it or not anyway. The current count means nothing can move.
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At the moment, I am leaning against Low 1-C.
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