Fuji NEVER Cry [DMC Tier 1 Downgrades Yet Again]

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I find Fuji’s arguments more persuasive, so I’m in agreement with her on this matter.

 

[KLOL506]

Regardless, a 1 vote difference on an ongoing discussion doesn't apply anything so does anyone have a suggestion aside from the summary posts?

I second this.

I suggest the OP and their supporters make a comprehensive summary post for their side of the arguments first, as the DMC side of people make their own comprehensive summary post later since they will need time due to them being on different time zones and having work to do.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I mean at the moment it's either 4-2 or 5-2 if Firestorm decides.

At the moment, I am leaning against Low 1-C.

Can this be taken as your vote for this thread?

 

[KLOL506]

I mean at the moment it's either 4-2 or 5-2 if Firestorm decides.

Gilver has yet to respond.

 

[Deagonx]

as the DMC side of people make their own comprehensive summary post later since they will need time due to them being on different time zones and having work to do.

This already occurred, it was Gilver's blog post.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I second this.

I suggest the OP and their supporters make a comprehensive summary post for their side of the arguments first, as the DMC side of people make their own comprehensive summary post later since they will need time due to them being on different time zones and having work to do.

My brother in Christ the votes are 5-2. DMC supporters already had the chance to post a blog and people disagreed with it. It's as shrimple as that.

 

[Planck69]

The juvenile response is unneeded. Gilver can summarise his post and arguments once, and so can you if you want. One final response from him won't kill anyone.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The juvenile response is unneeded. Gilver can summarise his post and arguments once, and so can you if you want. One final response from him won't kill anyone.

He already did. Was that not the entire point of the blog? To lay out the arguments in favor of tier 1 as organized and as clearly as possible?

 

[Deagonx]

Right, I don't really understand. Gilver made a blog post that KLOL, Tanin, and Sy all contributed to summarizing the argument, there were complaints about about "rushing to close the thread right after Gilver's blog post" so we kept it open to allow staff to review it. Fuji and I gave our responses about why we didn't think the evidence was persuasive, multiple staff members chimed in and disagreed with Gilver's arguments. Now we need Gilver to make another summary? Why?

This stalling is getting old, IMO.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I read Gilver's blog, and his explanations actually makes sense. We have evidence human world is Low 2-C, and is just one of many sub-dimensions in the demon world. Which implies Demon World is 2-B at minimum. But they're described as mere "Rays/lines" compared to the size of the demon world, which implies spatio-temporal transcendence.

So on second thought, I think Low 1-C can actually stay for his reasons.

 

[Deagonx]

We have evidence human world is Low 2-C, and is just one of many sub-dimensions in the demon world.

That isn't true, there's nothing saying the human world is a sub-dimension of the demon world.

But they're described as mere "Rays/lines" compared to the size of the demon world, which implies spatio-temporal transcendence.

This is also not true. The world is initially described as endless darkness and then there is a ray of light. It then says "Eventually, the world split in two." The half of the world that eventually becomes the Human World isn't a ray of light, that's just how it started.

 

[KLOL506]

That isn't true, there's nothing saying the human world is a sub-dimension of the demon world.


This is also not true. The world is initially described as endless darkness and then there is a ray of light. It then says "Eventually, the world split in two." The half of the world that eventually becomes the Human World isn't a ray of light, that's just how it started.

I would encourage you to read the manga scan.

"Darkness Became the Realm of the Demons. Light became the domain of the Mortals".

Basically, you're just wrong. Ray of Light is 100% the Human World.

The world splitting in two happens because Pluto splits the Light from the Demons.

 

[Deagonx]

I would encourage you to read the manga scan.

"Darkness Became the Realm of the Demons. Light became the domain of the Mortals".

Basically, you're just wrong.

I did read the manga scan, my counter argument is based on what the scan says. I would encourage you to read the manga scan.

There was a ray of light, and then eventually the world split in two. The scenario in which there is a ray of light in the darkness, and the scenario in which the world is split in two, are described as two distinct and different situations. The human world is not a "ray of light" and the phrase "split in two" does not describe an infinitesimal fraction.

Basically, you're just wrong. The Ray of Light is 100% not the Human World. The manga scan directly states that the ray of light eventually caused the world to split in two.

 

[KLOL506]

I did read the manga scan, my counter argument is based on what the scan says. I would encourage you to read the manga scan.

There was a ray of light, and then eventually the world split in two.

Because of Pluto.

The scenario in which there is a ray of light in the darkness,

Which is explicitly called the Realm of the Humans.

and the scenario in which the world is split in two,

"Universe" or whatever else the Kanji relates to.

are described as two distinct and different situations.

Wrong again, read the lines carefully.

"Darkness became the Realm of Demons, Light became the realm of Humans".

This is the same kind of logic you've been using in prior threads in an effort to just stonewall until the other side gives up, and frankly, I'm tired of it.

The human world is not a "ray of light" and the phrase "split in two" does not describe an infinitesimal fraction.

"Light became the Realm of the Humans".

I don't think I need to say anymore than this other than the fact that you need to stop misreading stuff like this and interpreting it in ways to suit your own beliefs.

Basically, you're just wrong. The Ray of Light is 100% not the Human World. The manga scan directly states that the ray of light eventually caused the world to split in two.

Ahem Pluto ahem

The light had nothing to do with the split. The mortals and Demons were destabilizing each other's existence until Pluto came in to sever the realms. Now you're just blatantly ignoring the DMC lore in and of itself. So no, the ray of light is 100% the Human World, why else would the light be called as the Realm of the Mortals in the first place?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Another thing is that the 9 realms thing kind adds more baselines to the demon realm's size to where it cannot simply be a Low 2-C sized structure; though there are two ways to interpret human world after reading that. The 9 realms of Nirvana are parallel to each other and at least one of them has both consistent infinite sized statements and depictions of its own flow of time. Which means all of them would have to be Tier 2 structures thus making Demon World 2-C at minimum, and it's other sub-realms are still stated to have "Many" of them. Which comes of as making the baseline 2-B. Now while one way to interpret the "Light/Darkness split" is that they're parallel. But that argument only works if Human World was also 2-C/2-B sized. Also, the descriptions of Hypertime also sound pretty blunt about the likelihood of a superior temporal dimension. And that is just for Demon Realm.

So Demon Realm is clearly much larger than Low 2-C sized; 9 realms alone make it 2-C minimum, existence of "Many" sub-dimensions existing imply 2-B minimum. Hypertime bluntly implies Tier 1 structure. Human Realm could either be parallel to it, and by extension also be just as big as the aforementioned stuff, or just a line compared to the bigger body of darkness which adds further context of Demon World being Low 1-C while keeping Human World more normal at Low 2-C.

I haven't even read his blog when I thought downgrade was fine, but now I stand to agree more with Gilver but I don't have hard feelings either way. But at the very least, if we still need more discussions. I'd argue for a thread being refreshed to make things more organized.

 

[Deagonx]

Because of Pluto.

This isn't a rebuttal to my argument. Pluto being responsible doesn't change the fact that the wording in the scan directly rejects your interpretation.

Which is explicitly called the Realm of the Humans.

Wrong again. The ray is never called the realm, the light is called the realm. You're attempting to skip over the sentence in between, which states that eventually the world split in two. It's clear from both the text and the illustration that the light only started as a ray. By the time the narration says "the light is the human world" the entire universe had already "split in two." Which means the human world is comparable in size to the demon world, that's simple English.

The responses that follow that one are either accusations, repeating yourself, or both. You can keep the juvenile accusations to yourself, the scan itself already debunked this argument. Claiming the human world is simply a "ray of light" is just ignoring the source material. The light only started as a ray, it clearly got bigger. The actual illustration even shows this, in addition to the text describing it.

 

[KLOL506]

This isn't a rebuttal to my argument. Pluto being responsible doesn't change the fact that the wording in the scan directly rejects your interpretation.

Unfortunately, that's your interpretation that doesn't align with the manga.

Wrong again. The ray is never called the realm, the light is called the realm. You're attempting to skip over the sentence in between, which states that eventually the world split in two. It's clear from both the text and the illustration that the light only started as a ray. By the time the narration says "the light is the human world" the entire universe had already "split in two." Which means the human world is comparable in size to the demon world, that's simple English.

No.

The responses that follow that one are either accusations, repeating yourself, or both. You can keep the juvenile accusations to yourself, the scan itself already debunked this argument. Claiming the human world is simply a "ray of light" is just ignoring the source material. The light only started as a ray, it clearly got bigger. The actual illustration even shows this, in addition to the text describing it.

Okay then. I don't wanna pick a fight but I'm sorry, you're just plain wrong on this one.

 

[Deagonx]

Another thing is that the 9 realms thing kind adds more baselines to the demon realm's size to where it cannot simply be a Low 2-C sized structure; though there are two ways to interpret human world after reading that. The 9 realms of Nirvana are parallel to each other and at least one of them has both consistent infinite sized statements and depictions of its own flow of time. Which means all of them would have to be Tier 2 structures thus making Demon World 2-C at minimum,

Well, they're never called realms or dimensions. The scan just lists 9 different areas and Gilver's blog post, for some reason, called them dimensions. I checked the scan, it never uses any words like that. I checked every scan in the sandbox and none of them use the word realm or dimension in that manner, except for the scan that describes the Human World and Demon World merging. All references to realms were Gilver, not Devil May Cry.

or just a line compared to the bigger body of darkness which adds further context of Demon World being Low 1-C while keeping Human World more normal at Low 2-C.

However, the human world was not just a line. It started as a ray of light and then the world "split in two" with one part being the human world.

 

[Deagonx]

Unfortunately, that's your interpretation that doesn't align with the manga.

It's indeed explicitly described in the manga, contrary to your protest.

I don't wanna pick a fight but I'm sorry, you're just plain wrong on this one.

You can repeat this as much as you feel the need, but one need look no further than the manga scan itself to see I am correct.

 

[KLOL506]

It's indeed explicitly described in the manga, contrary to your protest.

Once again, your opinion, not mine.

You can repeat this as much as you feel the need, but one need look no further than the manga scan itself to see I am correct.

And you can keep repeating your beliefs on this one as much as you want, but I think a single glance at the scan I just sent should tell you otherwise.

But since you're not gonna budge, we'll just agree to disagree. I'll stick with my guns, you stick with yours.

And yeah, let the people decide what the scans mean for themselves. You don't have to respond to them like this, they can make their own decisions.

 

[KLOL506]

However, the human world was not just a line. It started as a ray of light and then the world "split in two" with one part being the human world.

I already stated this to not be true as the manga blatantly calls the Light as the Realm of the Mortals, but eh, we shall agree to disagree.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I already stated this to not be true as the manga blatantly calls the Light as the Realm of the Mortals, but eh, we shall agree to disagree.

The Light became the domain of mortals

Yeah, KLOL is correct here

 

[Deagonx]

I already stated this to not be true as the manga blatantly calls the Light as the Realm of the Mortals, but eh, we shall agree to disagree.

This is the second time you've attempted to misconstrue my words by trying to make it sound as if I disagree the Light is being called the Human World, even after I corrected you the first time. So I will correct you again:

The Light is the Realm of the Mortals, where you are wrong is in claiming that this realm is merely a "ray" of light. The manga is clear that it only started that way, and then it directly states that eventually the world split in two, which suggests that the light now takes up a considerable proportion of the universe (as the phrase "split in two" does not lend itself to an infinitesimal fraction).

I am aware you disagree, but don't misrepresent my position again.

The Light became the domain of mortals

Yeah, KLOL is correct here

Please don't endorse a strawman argument that I already corrected two comments ago. I was never in disagreement with KLOL on this matter.

 

[KLOL506]

The Light became the domain of mortals

Yeah, KLOL is correct here

Tiny note: Replace "static" with "vignette" and the image is fixed.

 

[KLOL506]

This is the second time you've attempted to misconstrue my words by trying to make it sound as if I disagree the Light is being called the Human World, even after I corrected you the first time. So I will correct you again:

The Light is the Realm of the Mortals, where you are wrong is in claiming that this realm is merely a "ray" of light. The manga is clear that it only started that way, and then it directly states that eventually the world split in two, which suggests that the light now takes up a considerable proportion of the universe (as the phrase "split in two" does not lend itself to an infinitesimal fraction).

I am aware you disagree, but don't misrepresent my position again.

That is literally what the ray of light is tho, coupled with the "insignificance" statements. But as I said, I have no wish to pick a fight with you so we shall agree to disagree.

And please don't jump to accusations like "misconstrue" or "misrepresenting" like this. You were simply not stating things correctly, hence I had to correct your claims.

Please don't endorse a strawman argument that I already corrected two comments ago.

This was completely unwarranted IMHO.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Please don't endorse a strawman argument that I already corrected two comments ago. I was never in disagreement with KLOL on this matter.

I am showing the scan that directly aligns with what KLOL is saying for easier access. As simple as that.

 

[Planck69]

I'll update the vote count. Correct me if I'm wrong or if anyone's missing (preferably with a comment link).

Agree: 4 (Deagonx, Maverick_Zero_X, Firestorm808 (Leaning), Antvasima)

Disagree: 3 (Planck69, DarkDragonMedeus, Elizhaa)

Neutral: 1 (Theglassman12)

 

[Deagonx]

That is literally what the ray of light is tho, coupled with the "insignificance" statements.

Okay, but that is the disagreement, not whether the light became the human realm, but whether it remained a "ray" after the world split. I stated that the light became the human realm multiple times in my post, which is why it is rather obnoxious that you responded to me as if I was claiming otherwise, when I wasn't.

And please don't jump to accusations like "misconstrue" or "misrepresenting" like this. You were simply not stating things correctly, hence I had to correct your claims.

I am not jumping, that's what happened. I said it very directly multiple times:

the light is called the realm.

By the time the narration says "the light is the human world"

Me saying this twice, and then being responded to as if I didn't believe the light was the human realm, as you did below, is a misrepresentation of my argument. I'd thank you not to do again.

I already stated this to not be true as the manga blatantly calls the Light as the Realm of the Mortals, but eh

I am showing the scan that directly aligns with what KLOL is saying for easier access. As simple as that.

And directly aligns with what I said, as well. KLOL framed it as a disagreement when it wasn't.

 

[KLOL506]

Okay, but that is the disagreement, not whether the light became the human realm, but whether it remained a "ray" after the world split."

Yes. It did. The Darkness similarly remained the same. It just changed names. That's it.

If you still think this is an assumption, fine by me. But it doesn't take much to piece 2 and 2 together to understand it's referring to that same exact Ray of Light.

I am not jumping, that's what happened. I said it very directly multiple times:


Me saying this twice, and then being responded to as if I didn't believe the light was the human realm, as you did below, is a misrepresentation of my argument. I'd thank you not to do again.

Already responded so I don't see the need to pursue this further.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

And directly aligns with what I said, as well. KLOL framed it as a disagreement when it wasn't.

Then I don't understand your protest in me bringing it. KLOL is bringing an alternate interpretation (which frankly, I personally support, given how the darkness is what's called unending, while nothing of the sort is said about the light), contesting yours. It is what it is.

 

[Deagonx]

But it doesn't take much to piece 2 and 2 together to understand it's referring to that same exact Ray of Light.

It doesn't take much to see that it was only a "ray" at the beginning, and then grew as the world "split in two" and these two halves became the human realm and demon realm. The narration makes it very clear that the situation when the light was a "ray" and the one when the light became the human realm are different.

As long as we are clear, despite your twice saying otherwise, that I am not disagreeing with the light being the human realm.

 

[Planck69]

Has this back-and-forth not already happened? You're not going to convince each other. Let the staff read the arguments and come to their conclusion. They're not children to be coaxed endlessly to support one side or another when the arguments are in front of them.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Another thing is that the 9 realms thing kind adds more baselines to the demon realm's size to where it cannot simply be a Low 2-C sized structure; though there are two ways to interpret human world after reading that. The 9 realms of Nirvana are parallel to each other and at least one of them has both consistent infinite sized statements and depictions of its own flow of time. Which means all of them would have to be Tier 2 structures thus making Demon World 2-C at minimum, and it's other sub-realms are still stated to have "Many" of them. Which comes of as making the baseline 2-B. Now while one way to interpret the "Light/Darkness split" is that they're parallel. But that argument only works if Human World was also 2-C/2-B sized. Also, the descriptions of Hypertime also sound pretty blunt about the likelihood of a superior temporal dimension. And that is just for Demon Realm.

So Demon Realm is clearly much larger than Low 2-C sized; 9 realms alone make it 2-C minimum, existence of "Many" sub-dimensions existing imply 2-B minimum. Hypertime bluntly implies Tier 1 structure. Human Realm could either be parallel to it, and by extension also be just as big as the aforementioned stuff, or just a line compared to the bigger body of darkness which adds further context of Demon World being Low 1-C while keeping Human World more normal at Low 2-C.

I haven't even read his blog when I thought downgrade was fine, but now I stand to agree more with Gilver but I don't have hard feelings either way. But at the very least, if we still need more discussions. I'd argue for a thread being refreshed to make things more organized.

Honestly, I was overall neutral to tier 1 bs. But after this post I'm starting to lean to disagree.

My personal problem here is frankly the problem with these verses. The standards are all over the place for me, to the point I've started to refrain from tier 1 threads because of it (slowly becoming Griffin, damn).

But yeah, guess I gotta disagree for now.

Edit: Meant, disagree with OP

 

[KLOL506]

It doesn't take much to see that it was only a "ray" at the beginning, and then grew as the world "split in two" and these two halves became the human realm and demon realm. The narration makes it very clear that the situation when the light was a "ray" and the one when the light became the human realm are different.

You'd actually have to prove that the HW just expanded tho, because no such evidence exists, especially considering the DW is basically the same as it was, just with different names.

Unless you count that as a "change" in which case we're entering bordeline semantics.

As long as we are clear, despite your twice saying otherwise, that I am not disagreeing with the light being the human realm.

But you're stating that his "Light" is no longer a ray, which makes no sense at all given that the HW is not mentioned to expand like ever, and the Darkness just stays as it is, with a different name.

 

[KLOL506]

Honestly, I was overall neutral to tier 1 bs. But after this post I'm starting to lean to disagree.

My personal problem here is frankly the problem with these verses. The standards are all over the place for me, to the point I've started to refrain from tier 1 threads because of it (slowly becoming Griffin, damn).

But yeah, guess I gotta disagree for now.

I assume you are disagreeing with the downgrade?

EDIT: Thank you for clarifying.

And yeah, I get you on the Tier 1 stuff.

 

[Deagonx]

You'd actually have to prove that the HW just expanded tho, because no such evidence exists, especially considering the DW is basically the same as it was, just with different names.

Indeed, I did provide that evidence in my post already.

But you're stating that his "Light" is no longer a ray, which makes no sense at all given that the HW is not mentioned to expand like ever

Yes, it is mentioned that way, right about the point where the world "splits in two." I already explained this. It's fine if you personally aren't convinced, but I've already made the evidence very clear.

 

[Planck69]

I'll update the vote count. Correct me if I'm wrong or if anyone's missing (preferably with a comment link).

Agree: 4 (Deagonx, Maverick_Zero_X, Firestorm808 (Leaning), Antvasima)

Disagree: 4 (Planck69, LephyrTheRevanchist, DarkDragonMedeus, Elizhaa)

Neutral: 1 (Theglassman12)

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Another thing is that the 9 realms thing kind adds more baselines to the demon realm's size to where it cannot simply be a Low 2-C sized structure; though there are two ways to interpret human world after reading that. The 9 realms of Nirvana are parallel to each other and at least one of them has both consistent infinite sized statements and depictions of its own flow of time. Which means all of them would have to be Tier 2 structures thus making Demon World 2-C at minimum, and it's other sub-realms are still stated to have "Many" of them. Which comes of as making the baseline 2-B. Now while one way to interpret the "Light/Darkness split" is that they're parallel. But that argument only works if Human World was also 2-C/2-B sized. Also, the descriptions of Hypertime also sound pretty blunt about the likelihood of a superior temporal dimension. And that is just for Demon Realm.

So Demon Realm is clearly much larger than Low 2-C sized; 9 realms alone make it 2-C minimum, existence of "Many" sub-dimensions existing imply 2-B minimum. Hypertime bluntly implies Tier 1 structure. Human Realm could either be parallel to it, and by extension also be just as big as the aforementioned stuff, or just a line compared to the bigger body of darkness which adds further context of Demon World being Low 1-C while keeping Human World more normal at Low 2-C.

I haven't even read his blog when I thought downgrade was fine, but now I stand to agree more with Gilver but I don't have hard feelings either way. But at the very least, if we still need more discussions. I'd argue for a thread being refreshed to make things more organized.

We have never treated a mention of "many" realms being 2-B, what? Also, our universe page very clearly outlines that possessing a different flow of time isn't proof of being a different space-time continuum:
"A realm having time that works somewhat differently is not enough to be considered a Universe as nonlinear time within a single universe exists. And the realm should still have a confirmed appropriate size to back it up."

The hypertimeline part makes no sense - not only does it rely on low 2-C realms being a subset of the DW, which is untrue. It also claims that the DW causing the collapse of the timeline means it has to treat 4-dimensional structures as 'snapshots', much like a 4D space does to 3D space, but this is missing out on how the realms were merged at this point. There were no low 2-C "subsets" of the DW, because again, the basis of the feat was that everything was merged into a single space. So it'd just be a single above baseline low 2-C or 2-C space, and its subsequent collapse would just be nothing more than a typical universe destruction. Now, if the realms weren't merged, it'd be a different story entirely, but that is clearly not the case.

 

[Planck69]

Since we're at a complete deadlock at this point, I'll let Gilver post his overall stance once and then ping more staff to review his and Fuji's arguments in a concise manner. I do hope that once both posts drop we leave it to the staff to review without dragging out several posts and pages.

@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara Do you want to make a final comprehensive post or is this all you wish to communicate? If the latter then please link to all relevant comments to your arguments.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yeah, I can try to cover everything today or tomorrow. I'll ping you when I finish.