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the only reason he is so close to being able to do it at will is because of his bad control habits of having his cursed energy lag.
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JJK - The Speed Ceiling
- Thread starter Arkenis
- Start date
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Ironically them sucking is more beneficial to performing black flash, as seen with Yuji
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- Thread starter
- #124
"when impact of curse energy is applied within 0.000001 seconds of a physical hit"
So we know that in order to activate BF one's ce must be applied within that timeframe of a physical hit, but no one can do this at will, why? The reason is due to how extreme the concentration needs to be, without this level of concentration you can not get there.
Black flash is all about applying one's ce in that timeframe, this is not simply about "reaction speed", Idk how that became the focus of this crt, this is about the fact that none of the characters can operate within this timeframe consistently. They are not capable of applying their ce at such a speed to do this feat meaning that their ce flow is not at this level and ce flow is something conscious, this is why the word concentration is important here because what is concentration? From google "focus one's attention or mental effort on a particular object or activity." The sorcerer can not focus their attention to apply their ce within 0.000001s of their physical hit at will, its something that just might happen from the intense concentration they have in the moment.
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basically this
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As I again "Either way, Black Flash is primarily a skill issue not a speed issue.".
Black Flash is not merely about speed but more about the ability to apply the lag and then application of curse energy within that extremely tight timeframe. Characters in JJK might can perform impressive speed and reaction times in or above the timeframes, showing the level of concentration is there. But it's the concentrated application of their curse energy within 0.000001 seconds of a physical hit, the lag before applying cursed energy, that makes Black Flash and seemingly impossible technique to use at will.
As mentioned before, a JJK character could have reactions and speeds in the nanoseconds if they wanted to but even then, they would not be able to do a black flash at will without the ability to consciously lag their cursed energy until 0.000001 seconds of a physical hit. That’s the whole point you need to things two perform black flash:
- The skills to lag cursed energy at will to create a concentrated application of their curse energy within 0.000001 seconds of a physical hit.
- The reactions and control speeds, the level of concentration, to perform the delayed to create that application of cursed energy in 0.000001 second’s physical hit.
Gojo, Sukuna, Hakari, Kashimo all through their feats would have the reaction times and speeds to perform the Black flash, but they aren’t able to do a concentrated application of their curse energy within 0.000001 seconds of a physical hit. They aren’t able to purposely create that application of their curse energy within 0.000001 seconds because they aren’t skilled enough, therefore black flash can’t be done at will by them. On the opposite side of the spectrum, Yuji who is far from being able to do Black Flashes at will, is the only character to make a delayed application for cursed energy (Which is still far from the skills to being able to do a black flash) but he does not have the level of concentration, the ability to operate at those speeds to be able to perform in the needed timeframe.
No speed in JJK is consistent. As for the characters this is trying to affect.
20 Finger Sukuna:
- Blocks Sound attack from Kashimo and laughs it off.
- Actively dodges the electromagnetic waves as they are dangerous to him and swiftly avoids them.
- Returns to full health again and blitz's Kashimo and is able to chant and fire a slash before Kashimo's electromagnetic wave shit him.
- Is able Hakari Jackpot who's only feats are reacting and dodge lightning and fighting a post timeskip Uruame off screen.
- Is able to keep up with a healthy 20 finger Sukuna
- Has reacted and dodged explosions at close ranges.
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Back, was busy for a few hours. I would like to note that my comment was made with no ill-intent. I tend to exaggerate things to a silly degree for humor/conveyance purposes. I realized after coming back the 5 y/o thing may have come off as an insult, lol. I think you got what I meant tho. I'll drop this now.
I agree with a speed cap, but not for the premise presented here. So you can put my as agree with those stipulations Arkenis.
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I'm not in disagreement that people can't do it at will. I disagree with it being some type of limitation on speed when this is a problem of deduction/skill. Though Itadori was able to pull off Black Flash against Mahito when he wanted to. I do agree though that that should be saved for later when it's explicitly stated as opposed to hinted to.
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Exponential multipliers legitimately just don't work, because how much they buff the user can vary wildly depending on how the AP is represented.
For example, let's say someone is baseline 7-C. This is 5.8 kilotons, also known as 5800 tons, also known as 2.42672e+13 Joules. Now let's say this person does a Black Flash, gaining a ^2.5 increase. Let's test each of these values and see what the result looks like.
Example 1: 5.8^2.5 = 81.02 kilotons; Town level+ (7-C)
Example 2: 5800^2.5 = 2.56194e+9 tons, or 2.56 gigatons; Large Mountain level (High 7-A)
Example 3: (2.42672e+13)^2.5 = 2.9010097e+33 Joules, or 6.93 yottatons; Large Planet level (5-A)
This is why we don't use any exponential multipliers. Because despite the same AP value being able to be represented in different ways, taking each different way of representing it to a power results in a radically different value for the final result.
This is the last I'll say on the subject, as the AP multiplier isn't relevant here, but I did wanna clear this up.
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Because the exponential multiplier doesn't work within the story itself, if Hanami can survive being hit by 5 Black Flashes then why should he be getting hurt by Todo and Yuji's regular punches, if Mahito's punch was amplified by a power of 2.5 then he should've donutted Todo regardless of how concentrated Todo's 8-A durability was because Mahito's Black Flash would've been a 5-C+ attack, if Yuji's punch was amplified by that too then Mahito shouldn't have been able to resist Yuji's Black Flash at all, the punch would've went straight through him. That's not to mention the issue with what units would be used on top of Gege making up Cursed Energy "starting at 2" and the fact that using an exponential would mean the unit would be a squared one (Joules^2, Tons^2)
The only feat that surpasses the time frame rn is the EM wave shenanigans.
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The only feat on there that surpasses MHS+ is the EM waves
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no he didn't.
"[he's] so amazing that he makes you THINK that's what he's doing"
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Yeah, this doesn't really change what I said tho. I wasn't trying to say he could use it at will, but he was able to pull it off on the punch he wanted to. I prolly shoulda worded that better. It's more like it went off conveniently when he wanted it to land. I was mentioning it because it seems like foreshadowing for Itadori being able to use Black Flash whenever he wants later down the line. Or will at least evolve his use of it soon.no he didn't.
"[he's] so amazing that he makes you THINK that's what he's doing"
I will admit it was my mistake for wording it that way.
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i honestly just see black flash as analogous to a frame-perfect input
iF you really really focus you can get it, especially with practice, even without actively being able to see each 1/60s interval
iF you really really focus you can get it, especially with practice, even without actively being able to see each 1/60s interval
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I can understand that. But I don't think it's an issue of speed for reasons stated before. Clearly they have the speed if the cursed energy can travel over a meter from center body mass down to the fist (point of impact) in a millionth of a second (This would by default mean Cursed Energy travels at MHS speed inside the body). I think it's just an issue of timing it. Humans aren't computers. So even when it comes to timeframes we can easily grasp/react to, it's hard to pin-point accurately time smth. Obviously we can to some degree though. But when you consider things like Cursed Energy lag and timing an "input" for when you think you're about to make contact and what not mid-combat, it becomes very hard.
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- Thread starter
- #141
Can this be moved there then? I forgot honestly to make this into that lol
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Okay. I'll move it to Staff discussion.
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This seems logical to me, unless things change in the future of the series the discussion rule makes sense.
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I also think that, for the time being, the OP makes sense. If things change in the future, a discussion can definitely be had about removing the rule, but for now, this is appropriate imo.
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I deeply disagree with using Black Flash as a cap to speed in the verse because very simply, the reasons why no one can do it at will is never explained nor explored. It could be because of speed, but that isn't the only nor is it the obvious answer.
It could be a matter of control that no character can truly achieve.
It could be based purely on a state of mind that is hard for characters to achieve and maintain in the series.
It could be because the technique itself has a will of its own
We have no clue, nor support that outlines why blackflashes are impossible to do at will. And using a known mystery of the series to handicap the entire verse when we still don't really understand it makes no sense.
It is never stated nor implied that the black flash is impossible at will because no one being fast enough, that is something the OP is asserting without any scans which outline this.
To better tackle the OP in general:
The Hakari who can't perceive the difference in domain isn't Jackpot Hakari who has the major boost from infinite CE so it isn't really an anti-feat going against such fast reactions. He's stronger and fast enough to be on the level of Special Grade Sorcerers with Jackpot while in base he's comparable to some new ungraded sorcerer, so an extreme difference in reactions and such should be acceptable.
That's really the only support the OP has.
So once again, I disagree with the OP.
It could be a matter of control that no character can truly achieve.
It could be based purely on a state of mind that is hard for characters to achieve and maintain in the series.
It could be because the technique itself has a will of its own
We have no clue, nor support that outlines why blackflashes are impossible to do at will. And using a known mystery of the series to handicap the entire verse when we still don't really understand it makes no sense.
It is never stated nor implied that the black flash is impossible at will because no one being fast enough, that is something the OP is asserting without any scans which outline this.
To better tackle the OP in general:
The Hakari who can't perceive the difference in domain isn't Jackpot Hakari who has the major boost from infinite CE so it isn't really an anti-feat going against such fast reactions. He's stronger and fast enough to be on the level of Special Grade Sorcerers with Jackpot while in base he's comparable to some new ungraded sorcerer, so an extreme difference in reactions and such should be acceptable.
That's really the only support the OP has.
So once again, I disagree with the OP.
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- #149
Wrong. Ya keep acting like the manga isn't telling us
This is how it's done. Therefore if the person can not flow their ce at this exact moment then it won't activate bf. This isn't speculation
The novel also tells us that extreme concentration is what's essential to actually get to that "zone" where Black Flash is activate-able. So this idea that we don't know what is required is a bit disingenuous, Gege has given us what and how is needed to reach BF and I think everything I've laid out prior to this is reasonable to assert timing is a major factor as it blatant says the impact of ce within the timeframe is what allows bf.
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If they moved at MHS speeds then applying CE within a microsecond would be the easiest shit ever
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- #151
Here are all my explanations/arguments for BF being a big cap on the speed for now
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Permission from KingTempest to respond
I disagree with this notion on the basis of Yuji. He's pretty much the best representative example we have regarding watching someone go from no cursed energy to cursed energy, and he began from a higher baseline stat-wise then most sorcerers. Despite that, his "superhuman speed" did not help him control and coordinate his cursed energy. So based on this, we can clearly see speed alone is not the determining factor, or else Yuji would have been able to master regular control extremely easily.
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Not as if my vote is relevant but I want to remove my agreement after debating off site
The thing is really too vague to create such a rule to limit the entire verse
The thing is really too vague to create such a rule to limit the entire verse
Giannysmag
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Same goes for me, especially since the story is still ongoing
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Nobody is saying speed alone is the determining factor.
If their speed was high enough, then even with their average CE control, they would be able to do it
EldemadeDityjon
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There was not even a single thread for FTL speed so far. I don't see a reason for this rule even in the first place.
So far I know discussion rules are made in wiki when a topic gets repeated over again and again.
So far I know discussion rules are made in wiki when a topic gets repeated over again and again.
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This isn’t for FTL. It’s for MHS+ and above
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