All Purpose Dragon Ball Thread

[Ryzen7900X]

Drop it.

ight.

thanks for coming btw

 

[RedReaper616]

OG DB:

• Average generally. Extraordinary Genius in Combat (Although he lacks knowledge when it comes to things that aren't related to fighting, Goku is a master of prodigal skill when it comes to martial arts, with years of experience fighting against powerful opponents with a plethora of abilities. As a child, he was able to beat martial artists on such a level as Grandpa Gohan, who was stated to be an unparalleled master in all martial arts on Earth, with martial arts in Dragon Ball exceeding real life towards Dan/Level 30 where there is only 10, is skilled in the fighting style of the Kamesennin Ryu and Demon Clan's Martial Arts. In his battle with Master Roshi, was able to copy and improve upon a technique on sight, later in that same battle once faced against the Sui-Ken, a martial art he couldn't copy because he had never experienced inebriation, Goku generated and created his own style known as the "Crazy Fist" in response to perfectly counter it off the top of his head, with these styles even specifically noted to be a variation of Kenpo. At this point should be so skilled he's beyond 22nd World Tournament Roshi and Tien, the former of which having such mastery his movements, energy, and breathing have no ineffiency, and the latter being able to detect this merely via observation of scant attacks whilst his future foe was suppressed. Learned predictive movements and enemy reading in merely three days and was able to immediately apply it in combat. His skill when it comes to combat and the usage of Ki allows him to replicate other Ki-based techniques after seeing them once, and learned the training of the mind within a day, which takes battles that are dead even in all physical abilities, except stamina, which was above Goku's, as well as all techniques go from even to utter defeats of the enemy. Eventually learned to make absolutely zero unnecessary movements, which is shown by creating absolutely no sound from bells that react to the tiniest movement. Honed his mind, body, and spirit in conjunction with each other for his martial arts. As a Saiyan, he has a natural sense for battle and adapts to it quickly. Goku is capable of seeing the holes, flaws, and errors in techniques and fighters after seeing or hearing of them, such as when he took advantage of the weaknesses within the Multiform Technique after experiencing a single beatdown.)

"Z-Early":

• Average Generally, Extraordianry Genius in Combat (Is more skilled than even before. Should be more skilled than and effective at copying than Vegeta, who was able to replicate the Energy Sensory of the Z-Fighters by merely battling them, and their methods aren't detectable by any known conventional means. He is a genius in combat and is capable of devising new applications of his techniques on the fly, such as using Kamehameha with his feet, and Goku's training with King Kai was directly noted to be worth thousands of years of his prior accomplishments, experience, and skill. Easily noted Frieza's inability to sense Ki to create openings in his defenses and capitalized on it. Should be more skilled than Piccolo, who regularly utilizes perfect copies of himself to train with to hone all of his capabilities to their utmost extent. Likely is capable of Image Training via superiority in combat knowledge to Gohan and Krillin, allowing him to run simulations in and adapt to combat easily before he even faces a foe, honing himself even further. Mastered the Kaioken, a technique that requires mastery of Ki and skill to an extent that not even the originator of the technique, King Kai, can actually wield it.)

"Z-Mid":

• Average Generally, Extraordinary Genius in Combat (Is even more skilled than before. He was the first to realize how much energy the Super Saiyan transformations unnecessarily drained and despite the drawback was the first to master the Super Saiyan state, making it highly efficient and subsidizing the need to reach a higher grade, which decreases speed as a side effect. He as able to go toe to toe with Cell, a being created by the genius scientist Dr. Gero to be the ultimate warrior, taking the DNA and footage of every fighter on Earth and on Namek, copying their techniques, their mannerisms, and their skills to create him, including Goku himself, also having knowledge on how he approaches battle as well, down to real-time strategy, something that despite using an advanced supercomputer capable of creating machines that can destroy planets and stars, still took 20 years. Cell was even noted by others to perfect the martial arts and techniques of those who comprised him such as Tien's Multiform Technique, removing their flaws, and yet Goku was able to face four copies of Cell whilst their physical ability was identical off of his own raw battle intelligence and skill. Like before, is capable of seeing flaws in techniques, like how he noticed Hachiyack's sudden weakness at the 15 second mark of his Revenger Cannon Attack or Cell's perfected combat to lure and lead the four fighters into a means of which he can defeat all at once. Fought and was superior to Android 13 in combat, who had all of Goku's combat data, allowing him perfectly predict and counter every move Goku made and only lost due to Android 13's power boost.)

"Z-End":

• Average Generally, Extraordinary Genius in Combat (Is even more skilled than even before. Invented a new form of Super Saiyan in Otherworld, though it was reliant on the circumstances within it to be useful. Noticed the gap in the Thunder Flash and exploited it to take advantage of an opening and Hirudegarn's weakness of momentary loss of intangibility at the moment of attack. Was able to combine Super Saiyan and Kaioken soon after his death simply by growing in combat via watching other participants battle. Was capable of learning the Fusion Technique from old Metamorans, but was unable to Fuse with anyone due to being the most powerful and best fighter within Otherworld. Created a new move that completely crosses the gap in power between his forms known as the Super Dragon Fist. Fought Buu, who copies moves and fighting abilities on sight, and was still able to compete without too much hassle. Could fight momentarily fight foes vastly superior to him like Janemba. Briefly outmatched a perfect duplicate of Ultimate Gohan whilst being physically comparable to him, though was eventually put on the backfoot due to the copy's ability to continuously get back up as they were a Thought-Form. Became the strongest and most skilled fighter across the Z-Fighters and planet by the film Wrath of the Dragon.)
  
  How does this look?

 

[Spinoirr]

OG DB:

• Average generally. Extraordinary Genius in Combat (Although he lacks knowledge when it comes to things that aren't related to fighting, Goku is a master of prodigal skill when it comes to martial arts, with years of experience fighting against powerful opponents with a plethora of abilities. As a child, he was able to beat martial artists on such a level as Grandpa Gohan, who was stated to be an unparalleled master in all martial arts on Earth, with martial arts in Dragon Ball exceeding real life towards Dan/Level 30 where there is only 10, is skilled in the fighting style of the Kamesennin Ryu and Demon Clan's Martial Arts. In his battle with Master Roshi, was able to copy and improve upon a technique on sight, later in that same battle once faced against the Sui-Ken, a martial art he couldn't copy because he had never experienced inebriation, Goku generated and created his own style known as the "Crazy Fist" in response to perfectly counter it off the top of his head, with these styles even specifically noted to be a variation of Kenpo. At this point should be so skilled he's beyond 22nd World Tournament Roshi and Tien, the former of which having such mastery his movements, energy, and breathing have no ineffiency, and the latter being able to detect this merely via observation of scant attacks whilst his future foe was suppressed. Learned predictive movements and enemy reading in merely three days and was able to immediately apply it in combat. His skill when it comes to combat and the usage of Ki allows him to replicate other Ki-based techniques after seeing them once, and learned the training of the mind within a day, which takes battles that are dead even in all physical abilities, except stamina, which was above Goku's, as well as all techniques go from even to utter defeats of the enemy. Eventually learned to make absolutely zero unnecessary movements, which is shown by creating absolutely no sound from bells that react to the tiniest movement. Honed his mind, body, and spirit in conjunction with each other for his martial arts. As a Saiyan, he has a natural sense for battle and adapts to it quickly. Goku is capable of seeing the holes, flaws, and errors in techniques and fighters after seeing or hearing of them, such as when he took advantage of the weaknesses within the Multiform Technique after experiencing a single beatdown.)

"Z-Early":

• Average Generally, Extraordianry Genius in Combat (Is more skilled than even before. Should be more skilled than and effective at copying than Vegeta, who was able to replicate the Energy Sensory of the Z-Fighters by merely battling them, and their methods aren't detectable by any known conventional means. He was the first to realize how much energy the Super Saiyan transformations unnecessarily drained and despite the drawback was the first to master the Super Saiyan state, making it highly efficient and subsidizing the need to reach a higher grade, which decreases speed as a side effect. He is a genius in combat and is capable of devising new applications of his techniques on the fly, such as using Kamehameha with his feet, and Goku's training with King Kai was directly noted to be worth thousands of years of his prior accomplishments, experience, and skill. Easily noted Frieza's inability to sense Ki to create openings in his defenses and capitalized on it. Should be more skilled than Piccolo, who regularly utilizes perfect copies of himself to train with to hone all of his capabilities to their utmost extent. Likely is capable of Image Training via superiority in combat knowledge to Gohan and Krillin, allowing him to run simulations in and adapt to combat easily before he even faces a foe, honing himself even further. Mastered the Kaioken, a technique that requires mastery of Ki and skill to an extent that not even the originator of the technique, King Kai, can actually wield it.)

"Z-Mid":

• Average Generally, Extraordinary Genius in Combat (Is even more skilled than before. He was the first to realize how much energy the Super Saiyan transformations unnecessarily drained and despite the drawback was the first to master the Super Saiyan state, making it highly efficient and subsidizing the need to reach a higher grade, which decreases speed as a side effect. He as able to go toe to toe with Cell, a being created by the genius scientist Dr. Gero to be the ultimate warrior, taking the DNA and footage of every fighter on Earth and on Namek, copying their techniques, their mannerisms, and their skills to create him, including Goku himself, also having knowledge on how he approaches battle as well, down to real-time strategy, something that despite using an advanced supercomputer capable of creating machines that can destroy planets and stars, still took 20 years. Cell was even noted by others to perfect the martial arts and techniques of those who comprised him such as Tien's Multiform Technique, removing their flaws, and yet Goku was able to face four copies of Cell whilst their physical ability was identical off of his own raw battle intelligence and skill. Like before, is capable of seeing flaws in techniques, like how he noticed Hachiyack's sudden weakness at the 15 second mark of his Revenger Cannon Attack or Cell's perfected combat to lure and lead the four fighters into a means of which he can defeat all at once. Fought and was superior to Android 13 in combat, who had all of Goku's combat data, allowing him perfectly predict and counter every move Goku made and only lost due to Android 13's power boost.)

"Z-End":

• Average Generally, Extraordinary Genius in Combat (Is even more skilled than even before. Invented a new form of Super Saiyan in Otherworld, though it was reliant on the cirucmstances within it to be useful. Noticed the gap in the Thunder Flash and exploited it to take advantage of an opening and Hirudegarn's weakness of momentary loss of intangibility at the moment of attack. Was able to combine Super Saiyan and Kaioken soon after his death simply by growing in combat via watching other participants battle. Was capable of learning the Fusion Technique from old Metamorans, but was unable to Fuse with anyone due to being the most powerful and best fighter within Otherworld. Created a new move that completely crosses the gap in power between his forms known as the Super Dragon Fist. Fought Buu, who copies moves and fighting abilities on sight, and was still able to compete without too much hassle. Could fight momentarily fight foes vastly superior to him like Janemba. Briefly outmatched a perfect duplicate of Ultimate Gohan whilst being physically comparable to him, though was eventually put on the backfoot due to the copy's ability to continuously get back up as they were a Thought-Form. Became the strongest and most skilled fighter across the Z-Fighters and planet by the film Wrath of the Dragon.)
  
  How does this look?

Or you could do what I did, put it all in a scroll box

 

[RedReaper616]

Or you could do what I did, put it all in a scroll box

I mean that'd work for later iterations, but we're separating the skill boxes by the time they actually demonstrate those skill feats. Kid Goku isn't exactly as skilled as his older self who regularly fights perfect "Anti-Goku" fighters.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

OG DB:

• Average generally. Extraordinary Genius in Combat (Although he lacks knowledge when it comes to things that aren't related to fighting, Goku is a master of prodigal skill when it comes to martial arts, with years of experience fighting against powerful opponents with a plethora of abilities. As a child, he was able to beat martial artists on such a level as Grandpa Gohan, who was stated to be an unparalleled master in all martial arts on Earth, with martial arts in Dragon Ball exceeding real life towards Dan/Level 30 where there is only 10, is skilled in the fighting style of the Kamesennin Ryu and Demon Clan's Martial Arts. In his battle with Master Roshi, was able to copy and improve upon a technique on sight, later in that same battle once faced against the Sui-Ken, a martial art he couldn't copy because he had never experienced inebriation, Goku generated and created his own style known as the "Crazy Fist" in response to perfectly counter it off the top of his head, with these styles even specifically noted to be a variation of Kenpo. At this point should be so skilled he's beyond 22nd World Tournament Roshi and Tien, the former of which having such mastery his movements, energy, and breathing have no ineffiency, and the latter being able to detect this merely via observation of scant attacks whilst his future foe was suppressed. Learned predictive movements and enemy reading in merely three days and was able to immediately apply it in combat. His skill when it comes to combat and the usage of Ki allows him to replicate other Ki-based techniques after seeing them once, and learned the training of the mind within a day, which takes battles that are dead even in all physical abilities, except stamina, which was above Goku's, as well as all techniques go from even to utter defeats of the enemy. Eventually learned to make absolutely zero unnecessary movements, which is shown by creating absolutely no sound from bells that react to the tiniest movement. Honed his mind, body, and spirit in conjunction with each other for his martial arts. As a Saiyan, he has a natural sense for battle and adapts to it quickly. Goku is capable of seeing the holes, flaws, and errors in techniques and fighters after seeing or hearing of them, such as when he took advantage of the weaknesses within the Multiform Technique after experiencing a single beatdown.)

"Z-Early":

• Average Generally, Extraordianry Genius in Combat (Is more skilled than even before. Should be more skilled than and effective at copying than Vegeta, who was able to replicate the Energy Sensory of the Z-Fighters by merely battling them, and their methods aren't detectable by any known conventional means. He is a genius in combat and is capable of devising new applications of his techniques on the fly, such as using Kamehameha with his feet, and Goku's training with King Kai was directly noted to be worth thousands of years of his prior accomplishments, experience, and skill. Easily noted Frieza's inability to sense Ki to create openings in his defenses and capitalized on it. Should be more skilled than Piccolo, who regularly utilizes perfect copies of himself to train with to hone all of his capabilities to their utmost extent. Likely is capable of Image Training via superiority in combat knowledge to Gohan and Krillin, allowing him to run simulations in and adapt to combat easily before he even faces a foe, honing himself even further. Mastered the Kaioken, a technique that requires mastery of Ki and skill to an extent that not even the originator of the technique, King Kai, can actually wield it.)

"Z-Mid":

• Average Generally, Extraordinary Genius in Combat (Is even more skilled than before. He was the first to realize how much energy the Super Saiyan transformations unnecessarily drained and despite the drawback was the first to master the Super Saiyan state, making it highly efficient and subsidizing the need to reach a higher grade, which decreases speed as a side effect. He as able to go toe to toe with Cell, a being created by the genius scientist Dr. Gero to be the ultimate warrior, taking the DNA and footage of every fighter on Earth and on Namek, copying their techniques, their mannerisms, and their skills to create him, including Goku himself, also having knowledge on how he approaches battle as well, down to real-time strategy, something that despite using an advanced supercomputer capable of creating machines that can destroy planets and stars, still took 20 years. Cell was even noted by others to perfect the martial arts and techniques of those who comprised him such as Tien's Multiform Technique, removing their flaws, and yet Goku was able to face four copies of Cell whilst their physical ability was identical off of his own raw battle intelligence and skill. Like before, is capable of seeing flaws in techniques, like how he noticed Hachiyack's sudden weakness at the 15 second mark of his Revenger Cannon Attack or Cell's perfected combat to lure and lead the four fighters into a means of which he can defeat all at once. Fought and was superior to Android 13 in combat, who had all of Goku's combat data, allowing him perfectly predict and counter every move Goku made and only lost due to Android 13's power boost.)

"Z-End":

• Average Generally, Extraordinary Genius in Combat (Is even more skilled than even before. Invented a new form of Super Saiyan in Otherworld, though it was reliant on the circumstances within it to be useful. Noticed the gap in the Thunder Flash and exploited it to take advantage of an opening and Hirudegarn's weakness of momentary loss of intangibility at the moment of attack. Was able to combine Super Saiyan and Kaioken soon after his death simply by growing in combat via watching other participants battle. Was capable of learning the Fusion Technique from old Metamorans, but was unable to Fuse with anyone due to being the most powerful and best fighter within Otherworld. Created a new move that completely crosses the gap in power between his forms known as the Super Dragon Fist. Fought Buu, who copies moves and fighting abilities on sight, and was still able to compete without too much hassle. Could fight momentarily fight foes vastly superior to him like Janemba. Briefly outmatched a perfect duplicate of Ultimate Gohan whilst being physically comparable to him, though was eventually put on the backfoot due to the copy's ability to continuously get back up as they were a Thought-Form. Became the strongest and most skilled fighter across the Z-Fighters and planet by the film Wrath of the Dragon.)
  
  How does this look?

It turned out good, are you going to make a huge crt for Dragon Ball Toei to add all this stuff?

 

[RedReaper616]

It turned out good, are you going to make a huge crt for Dragon Ball Toei to add all this stuff?

Probably. Trying to get all the Toei Stuff in order. GT Goku's Profile, now the Z-Goku profiles (alongside Ednaxel), my mini-blog for the verse page, etc. Really I'm just kind of overhauling the main stuff because in comparison to the canon stuff their profiles are very subpar.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Probably. Trying to get all the Toei Stuff in order. GT Goku's Profile, now the Z-Goku profiles (alongside Ednaxel), my mini-blog for the verse page, etc. Really I'm just kind of overhauling the main stuff because in comparison to the canon stuff their profiles are very subpar.

Make profiles god-like, i would like to see this huge crt

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

I mean there's this, but it can also be interpreted as relating to physical stats or simply being (say it with me now) hyperbolic

This isn't hyperbolic lmfao

 

[Omegabronic]

"Z-Mid":

• Average Generally, Extraordinary Genius in Combat (Is even more skilled than before. He was the first to realize how much energy the Super Saiyan transformations unnecessarily drained and despite the drawback was the first to master the Super Saiyan state, making it highly efficient and subsidizing the need to reach a higher grade, which decreases speed as a side effect. He as able to go toe to toe with Cell, a being created by the genius scientist Dr. Gero to be the ultimate warrior, taking the DNA and footage of every fighter on Earth and on Namek, copying their techniques, their mannerisms, and their skills to create him, including Goku himself, also having knowledge on how he approaches battle as well, down to real-time strategy, something that despite using an advanced supercomputer capable of creating machines that can destroy planets and stars, still took 20 years.

that part, about it "being capable of creating star destroying machines" doesn't really matter much here, creating purely destructive weapons is a thing, analising a fighting style is completely different one, one is not inferior or superior, not comparable at all, i would say to just remove that part and just leave that it was a Super Computer

to say tho, this can't be entirely because of skill since he would also be creating a hybrid physiology between multiple completely different races of a alien races, so while yes, still a factor, can't be written as if skill implementation was the sole reason it took that long, unless there is a statement i am missing of course

• Cell was even noted by others to perfect the martial arts and techniques of those who comprised him such as Tien's Multiform Technique, removing their flaws, and yet Goku was able to face four copies of Cell whilst their physical ability was identical off of his own raw battle intelligence and skill. Like before, is capable of seeing flaws in techniques, like how he noticed Hachiyack's sudden weakness at the 15 second mark of his Revenger Cannon Attack or Cell's perfected combat to lure and lead the four fighters into a means of which he can defeat all at once. Fought and was superior to Android 13 in combat, who had all of Goku's combat data, allowing him perfectly predict and counter every move Goku made and only lost due to Android 13's power boost.)

didn't he beat him by absorbing the Genki Dama and fusing it with his Super Saiyan form and overpowering it rather than with skill? i don't remember much of the Android 13 movie tho, so you might be referencing something else

"Z-End":

• Average Generally, Extraordinary Genius in Combat (Is even more skilled than even before. Invented a new form of Super Saiyan in Otherworld, though it was reliant on the circumstances within it to be useful. Noticed the gap in the Thunder Flash and exploited it to take advantage of an opening and Hirudegarn's weakness of momentary loss of intangibility at the moment of attack. Was able to combine Super Saiyan and Kaioken soon after his death simply by growing in combat via watching other participants battle. Was capable of learning the Fusion Technique from old Metamorans, but was unable to Fuse with anyone due to being the most powerful and best fighter within Otherworld.

this part was purely due to him being too strong and not cause of skill, it doesn't really need to be here

 

[Omegabronic]

I mean that'd work for later iterations, but we're separating the skill boxes by the time they actually demonstrate those skill feats. Kid Goku isn't exactly as skilled as his older self who regularly fights perfect "Anti-Goku" fighters.

wait by this logic, shouldn't it be separated by keys as well? at least for OG DB Goku, he pre Popo's training is much inferior to his Post Popo's training

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

that part, about it "being capable of creating star destroying machines" doesn't really matter much here, creating purely destructive weapons is a thing, analising a fighting style is completely different one, one is not inferior or superior, not comparable at all, i would say to just remove that part and just leave that it was a Super Computer

to say tho, this can't be entirely because of skill since he would also be creating a hybrid physiology between multiple completely different races of a alien races, so while yes, still a factor, can't be written as if skill implementation was the sole reason it took that long, unless there is a statement i am missing of course



didn't he beat him by absorbing the Genki Dama and fusing it with his Super Saiyan form and overpowering it rather than with skill? i don't remember much of the Android 13 movie tho, so you might be referencing something else


this part was purely due to him being too strong and not cause of skill, it doesn't really need to be here

I'll address the supercomputer stuff later, or someone else will, but in the 13 movie Goku was able to contend pretty evenly with 13 after going Super Saiyan. This was before Super 13 and Spirit Bomb stuff. So Goku would scale, he'd just scale evenly

Agree on the end of Z thing.

 

[Omegabronic]

but in the 13 movie Goku was able to contend pretty evenly with 13 after going Super Saiyan. This was before Super 13 and Spirit Bomb stuff. So Goku would scale, he'd just scale evenly

hm, fair enough then

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

hm, fair enough then

I watched the movie the other day for the 30 dollar hair cut line.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Don't you lecture me with your thirty dollar hair cut

 

[Omegabronic]

Don't you lecture me with your thirty dollar hair cut

jokes on you i'm bald

 

[RedReaper616]

that part, about it "being capable of creating star destroying machines" doesn't really matter much here, creating purely destructive weapons is a thing, analising a fighting style is completely different one, one is not inferior or superior, not comparable at all, i would say to just remove that part and just leave that it was a Super Computer

Supercomputers across fiction vary in capacity and capability, so I figure holding the data capacity/capability of destroying planets, stars, solar systems, cellular alteration, hybrid creation, genetic engineering, etc. is a valid way to kind of put a marker of how much "data" it can analyze and utilize casually compared to Goku's fighting data, which took 2 decades.

to say tho, this can't be entirely because of skill since he would also be creating a hybrid physiology between multiple completely different races of a alien races, so while yes, still a factor, can't be written as if skill implementation was the sole reason it took that long, unless there is a statement i am missing of course

In the Anime the Computer contains both the DNA and martial arts data of "All Earths Masters." Frieza and Cold's DNA was only entered 3 years before that, so it was just the Saiyan info from the Saiyan Saga and the combat information of all the Z-Fighters that took years long before that moment, meaning only Human DNA except Goku.

didn't he beat him by absorbing the Genki Dama and fusing it with his Super Saiyan form and overpowering it rather than with skill? i don't remember much of the Android 13 movie tho, so you might be referencing something else

Was handled by someone else.

this part was purely due to him being too strong and not cause of skill, it doesn't really need to be here

This is true, yeah.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Before anyone starts arguing about the two decades thing, let me figure out the timeline before we dive into that plz

 

[RedReaper616]

I mean it's pretty straightforward, no? The Androids reign terror for about two decades in Trunks' Future, which is when Cell is finally released and complete--Just after Trunks ganks them, hence why he kills Trunks and takes the Time Machine back to the past. Account for the few years it took to get that data (Saiyan Saga to Frieza and King Cold's appearance) or two to three years and you got a complete two decades. Goku's latest info according to Cell was taken from the Saiyan Saga, so nearly twenty to twenty years, and Gero had been working on Goku's data before that already, since he was making Androids to kill Goku between 8 and 16. They just sucked. So twenty years to fully complete their amalgamated combat data.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

I mean it's pretty straightforward, no? The Androids reign terror for about two decades in Trunks' Future, which is when Cell is finally released and complete--Just after Trunks ganks them, hence why he kills Trunks and takes the Time Machine back to the past. Account for the few years it took to get that data (Saiyan Saga to Frieza and King Cold's appearance) or two to three years and you got a complete two decades. Goku's latest info according to Cell was taken from the Saiyan Saga, so nearly twenty to twenty years, and Gero had been working on Goku's data before that already, since he was making Androids to kill Goku between 8 and 16. They just sucked. So twenty years to fully complete their amalgamated combat data.

Im trying to remember what his relation with the supercomputer was. You had android gero, the one who turned himself into an android, and back up gero on supercomputer, correct?

 

[RedReaper616]

Im trying to remember what his relation with the supercomputer was. You had android gero, the one who turned himself into an android, and back up gero on supercomputer, correct?

Yeah, Gero had his hatred within his Supercomputer working on the project (and the 3 S13 Androids) on the backburner. This computer was directly the source of the combat intelligence of the Androids and Cell. Which also is greater in the Anime Continuity, since it's working in real time to predict Goku's movements in the film.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Yeah, Gero had his hatred within his Supercomputer working on the project (and the 3 S13 Androids) on the backburner. This computer was directly the source of the combat intelligence of the Androids and Cell. Which also is greater in the Anime Continuity, since it's working in real time to predict Goku's movements in the film.

I want to make sure this is air tight. Are you on the supporters discord server?

 

[RedReaper616]

I want to make sure this is air tight. Are you on the supporters discord server?

No. No one gave me the invite.

 

[Omegabronic]

Supercomputers across fiction vary in capacity and capability, so I figure holding the data capacity/capability of destroying planets, stars, solar systems, cellular alteration, hybrid creation, genetic engineering, etc. is a valid way to kind of put a marker of how much "data" it can analyze and utilize casually compared to Goku's fighting data, which took 2 decades.

see, you only put the pure AP of the machines it can produce, not the other stuff it can do, so if you want to use that point......just include the feats the Computer has instead, it would be better for your point

In the Anime the Computer contains both the DNA and martial arts data of "All Earths Masters." Frieza and Cold's DNA was only entered 3 years before that, so it was just the Saiyan info from the Saiyan Saga and the combat information of all the Z-Fighters that took years long before that moment, meaning only Human DNA except Goku.

Piccolo isn't human tho, and since this is toei continuity, it would have the DNA of other beings since, iirc, Goku also fought Demons and other beings after the defeat of the Red Ribbon Arc

Like, it is still impressive it took this long, but alongside it not being only Goku's Skill to analyse, since it would have everyone else's as well, it would also need to analyse how to properly fuse all these different DNA's, mix their powers, and making it an anatomy that would allow the inherent abilities of them all to be usable for cell, all while also implementing the evolution function he has to make himself "perfect"

all this to say is, in your wording you are implying that Goku's skill in fighting in specific is why it took so long to complete cell.....but that is likely not the case, at least, i didn't see a statement about it, Goku was 1 part of a very big and complex project, unless we have a statement saying that he was the reason it took this long, giving him all the credit is not very accurate

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

No. No one gave me the invite.

Bro that's so sad. Lemme fetch you one blud

Dm me your discord

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

see, you only put the pure AP of the machines it can produce, not the other stuff it can do, so if you want to use that point......just include the feats the Computer has instead, it would be better for your point


Piccolo isn't human tho, and since this is toei continuity, it would have the DNA of other beings since, iirc, Goku also fought Demons and other beings after the defeat of the Red Ribbon Arc

Like, it is still impressive it took this long, but alongside it not being only Goku's Skill to analyse, since it would have everyone else's as well, it would also need to analyse how to properly fuse all these different DNA's, mix their powers, and making it an anatomy that would allow the inherent abilities of them all to be usable for cell, all while also implementing the evolution function he has to make himself "perfect"

all this to say is, in your wording you are implying that Goku's skill in fighting in specific is why it took so long to complete cell.....but that is likely not the case, at least, i didn't see a statement about it, Goku was 1 part of a very big and complex project, unless we have a statement saying that he was the reason it took this long, giving him all the credit is not very accurate

I asked for people to hold on while I get a timeline. So far what we know of Gero's capabilities makes those things a cakewalk for him, plus there being a super computer working on the back burner while Gero himself is doing other shit.

I'm trying to get a clear timeline of Gero's activities so we can make this clear cut. Looking at other super computer justifications for other verses, they are usually wank or not well thought out in relation to combat IQ. That's why I need to figure out a timeline before we even start arguing.

 

[RedReaper616]

see, you only put the pure AP of the machines it can produce, not the other stuff it can do, so if you want to use that point......just include the feats the Computer has instead, it would be better for your point

Fair.

Piccolo isn't human tho, and since this is toei continuity, it would have the DNA of other beings since, iirc, Goku also fought Demons and other beings after the defeat of the Red Ribbon Arc

Like, it is still impressive it took this long, but alongside it not being only Goku's Skill to analyse, since it would have everyone else's as well, it would also need to analyse how to properly fuse all these different DNA's, mix their powers, and making it an anatomy that would allow the inherent abilities of them all to be usable for cell, all while also implementing the evolution function he has to make himself "perfect"

The issue I have is the fighting data is both from observation and LITERALLY Goku's DNA. While you're right in saying it's more than 1 person, the DNA and the naturally generated fighting data from it are ONE and the SAME. Further, it should be noted that within the context of the Anime, the Supercomputer still had to gradully work to overwhelm Goku, which is backed up in the film. They stress that the main focus was Goku's Combat Data. That said, they had data on others still.

 

[Omegabronic]

I asked for people to hold on while I get a timeline. So far what we know of Gero's capabilities makes those things a cakewalk for him, plus there being a super computer working on the back burner while Gero himself is doing other shit.

I'm trying to get a clear timeline of Gero's activities so we can make this clear cut. Looking at other super computer justifications for other verses, they are usually wank or not well thought out in relation to combat IQ. That's why I need to figure out a timeline before we even start arguing.

oh i am not worried about the Super Computer's capabilities, more so in "how much of that is purely Goku's Skill" in the "it took X many years to complete Cell" process

Fair.

The issue I have is the fighting data is both from observation and LITERALLY Goku's DNA. While you're right in saying it's more than 1 person, the DNA and the naturally generated fighting data from it are ONE and the SAME.

i mean yeah, my point is not much "Is skill included in DNA?" and more of "There much more stuff then just skill to complete cell" and "there much more DNA then just Goku to account for, thus saying he is the main cause seems baseless without a statement about his DNA being the factor of why it took so long"

Further, it should be noted that within the context of the Anime, the Supercomputer still had to gradully work to overwhelm Goku, which is backed up in the film.

i mean.....duh, this Goku is much older and more experienced than the one where Gero stopped getting Data, which was at the Saiyan saga, therefore this "new"/Current Goku has Data they didn't accounted for, hence why it analyses them again to be able to counter them

They stress that the main focus was Goku's Combat Data. That said, they had data on others still.

eh.....i don't really see that in the scans you showed, mostly i see that 13 was made specifically to kill goku, so of course he would focus on Goku's data to be able to kill him, that is more cuz of the objetive that was "kill Goku" than "goku skill/data is so much more that it needs focus"

 

[RedReaper616]

i mean yeah, my point is not much "Is skill included in DNA?" and more of "There much more stuff then just skill to complete cell" and "there much more DNA then just Goku to account for, thus saying he is the main cause seems baseless without a statement about his DNA being the factor of why it took so long"

I mean, Cell's physiology was complete as far as we know. He was there in his larve state in that incubator. The rest of the time was finishing and honing him, and the only stuff left we know of is the combat data.

i mean.....duh, this Goku is much older and more experienced than the one where Gero stopped getting Data, which was at the Saiyan saga, therefore this "new"/Current Goku has Data they didn't accounted for, hence why it analyses them again to be able to counter them

When 13 shows up he outright says they already "have all the data they need."

eh.....i don't really see that in the scans you showed, mostly i see that 13 was made specifically to kill goku, so of course he would focus on Goku's data to be able to kill him, that is more cuz of the objetive that was "kill Goku" than "goku skill/data is so much more that it needs focus"

You're missing the forest for the trees. If they're putting priority on Goku's data, then that data by necessity is being covered more compared to everyone else's.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Gero himself started Cell, so most of the work on creating the body with all the combined DNA would've been done by him physically. That means the supercomputer was left to analyse Goku and Co's skills and techniques.

As for the 13 thing, Goku is still able to fight equally with someone who knows a lot of his moves and actively has a super computer reading and countering his moves. If you want to argue timeframe of the fight, then it'd still mean the super computer couldn't overwhelm Goku quick enough because he had grown so much in skill since the saiyan saga in that time.

And Goku would scale above or relative to the other people being analyzed anyway, so later down the line come Cell he'd guarantee be more skilled or as skilled than all of those fighters put together if you don't want to accept 13

 

[Omegabronic]

I mean, Cell's physiology was complete as far as we know. He was there in his larve state in that incubator. The rest of the time was finishing and honing him, and the only stuff left we know of is the combat data.

I mean....not reallt something we have any information to affirm it was finish, he at least didn't looked anything like his finish self in the tube

Plus "was complete" when exactly? How much time was spent honing him and how much time was just making his body?

More over, i don't want to lose sight

When 13 shows up he outright says they already "have all the data they need."

Gero said the same thing when first fighting Goku and Vegeta......it didn't turned out good for him, also, he says this in the context of them upgrading the data in real time via 13, so this proves more the capability of the computer to gather more data than Goku in this case

You're missing the forest for the trees. If they're putting priority on Goku's data, then that data by necessity is being covered more compared to everyone else's.

Yeah, but they are covering as in "how to surpass it to kill him" in which all other fighting styles would, by nescecity, need to be as much analysed as his to know exactlt how to use them to overcome his, and given the sheer number, them all in total would be more analysed than his

 

[Omegabronic]

Gero himself started Cell, so most of the work on creating the body with all the combined DNA would've been done by him physically. That means the supercomputer was left to analyse Goku and Co's skills and techniques.

Huh, that is true, we can't be sure of how much he finished however, but still, a very valid point

As for the 13 thing, Goku is still able to fight equally with someone who knows a lot of his moves and actively has a super computer reading and countering his moves. If you want to argue timeframe of the fight, then it'd still mean the super computer couldn't overwhelm Goku quick enough because he had grown so much in skill since the saiyan saga in that time.

Yeah, that is a valid feat, he is keeping with a Super Computer, no matter what is said, this fact cannot be contested

And Goku would scale above or relative to the other people being analyzed anyway, so later down the line come Cell he'd guarantee be more skilled or as skilled than all of those fighters put together if you don't want to accept 13

Assuming they were analysed perfectly......kidding lol

Yeah he would, the 13 feat is not something i am contesting as a feat, more so the details of it

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

I mean....not reallt something we have any information to affirm it was finish, he at least didn't looked anything like his finish self in the tube

Plus "was complete" when exactly? How much time was spent honing him and how much time was just making his body?

More over, i don't want to lose sight


Gero said the same thing when first fighting Goku and Vegeta......it didn't turned out good for him, also, he says this in the context of them upgrading the data in real time via 13, so this proves more the capability of the computer to gather more data than Goku in this case


Yeah, but they are covering as in "how to surpass it to kill him" in which all other fighting styles would, by nescecity, need to be as much analysed as his to know exactlt how to use them to overcome his, and given the sheer number, them all in total would be more analysed than his

Your last point literally just means the supercomputer literally thought the only way to surpass or match Goku in skill was to take more time to analyse a bunch of other hyper masters ontop of Goku's data. It doesn't think just copying Goku's data will be enough to reliably deal with Goku.

Goku was so skilled the computer didn't think Goku could match up

That doesn't make any sense but you get the idea

Given how well 13, 14, and 15 did against stronger Super Saiyans compared to 19 and 20, I think the 'all the data we need' is more legit. (For anime stuff ofc)

 

[Omegabronic]

Your last point literally just means the supercomputer literally thought the only way to surpass or match Goku in skill was to take more time to analyse a bunch of other hyper masters ontop of Goku's data. It doesn't think just copying Goku's data will be enough to reliably deal with Goku.

More like "better be 100% sure that it will be able to kill him with no mistakes" since all it was doing was trying to find ways to kill goku, plus much of that time was also for Cell to grow and develop his body, so it didn't really had a choice in that aspect, it need for cell to grow, and did stuff in the meantime

But yeah, Goku scales to a Super Computer + "i have all you have but more", that is true

Goku was so skilled the computer didn't think Goku could match up

Tbf, in the end he didn't and needed the Super Saiyan and spirit bomb combo to kill 13

But since the Computer was analysing him in real time, yeah, it is still a good feat to keep up with him

Given how well 13, 14, and 15 did against stronger Super Saiyans compared to 19 and 20, I think the 'all the data we need' is more legit.

They were being analysed in real time, it isn't a situation of them analysing their past data and improving it, they are using the data of them "now" to beat them, still an impressive feat, as i said, i agree with using it as "super computer" level justification, so don't you worry about that

 

[RedReaper616]

I mean....not reallt something we have any information to affirm it was finish, he at least didn't looked anything like his finish self in the tube

Plus "was complete" when exactly? How much time was spent honing him and how much time was just making his body?

His literal body was done. Like, he literally was there as a larva. His physiology was done. And we know from Cell that once complete he was still a larva, because he had to grow in an egg underground when he force restarted to fit in the time machine. So the rest of the development is the data. Also, Cell says his completion is in twenty four years and that this isn't due to cells. He's complete. And we see this is the case, because, again, his physiology is complete. Cell also says that the reason Gero gave up is literally the amount of time, because synthesizing of his cells from those genetics was already done by Gero himself. Which means, again, the only thing left to do is finish honing Cell's body and the combat data. And, AGAIN, the genetics are the exact same as combat data too, so this means even if you want to argue the entire time it was just synthesizing more cells, that cellular synthesis is literally the synthesis of combat data.

More over, i don't want to lose sight

Of?

Gero said the same thing when first fighting Goku and Vegeta......it didn't turned out good for him, also, he says this in the context of them upgrading the data in real time via 13, so this proves more the capability of the computer to gather more data than Goku in this case

Not particularly.

Yeah, but they are covering as in "how to surpass it to kill him" in which all other fighting styles would, by nescecity, need to be as much analysed as his to know exactlt how to use them to overcome his, and given the sheer number, them all in total would be more analysed than his

Sure, more than just Goku's data was involved. But the main focus still by necessity was Goku, so this means a greater portion of that time was used on Goku specifically than anyone else. Even if it took them 15 years for everyone else and only 5 for Goku, it still means Goku individually is just hitting a much higher bracket. Also, this ignores how Goku was the main factor for these bots being made over time, long before any other data was introduced. The only reason other people's data was involved was because Gero and his Computer found it necessary/wanted to create the strongest thing possible to kill Goku specifically. For years before even that project he was dealing with Goku's information to specifically kill him and failing, which is why the Androids and Cell were even made, and it still took that time to really finish up and get the job done. So regardless his Supercomputer spent a sizable amount of time on Goku specifically.

 

[Omegabronic]

His literal body was done. Like, he literally was there as a larva. His physiology was done. And we know from Cell that once complete he was still a larva, because he had to grow in an egg underground when he force restarted to fit in the time machine. So the rest of the development is the data. Also, Cell says his completion is in twenty four years and that this isn't due to cells. He's complete. And we see this is the case, because, again, his physiology is complete. Cell also says that the reason Gero gave up is literally the amount of time, because synthesizing of his cells from those genetics was already done by Gero himself. Which means, again, the only thing left to do is finish honing Cell's body and the combat data. And, AGAIN, the genetics are the exact same as combat data too, so this means even if you want to argue the entire time it was just synthesizing more cells, that cellular synthesis is literally the synthesis of combat data.

And for Cell to grow up to adulthood to be able to fight at all......which we don't know how much time was needed specifically because of that

Of?

deez nuts

Not particularly.

.....why not?

Sure, more than just Goku's data was involved. But the main focus still by necessity was Goku, so this means a greater portion of that time was used on Goku specifically than anyone else. Even if it took them 15 years for everyone else and only 5 for Goku, it still means Goku individually is just hitting a much higher bracket.

Yeah, duh, by the time of the saiyan Saga he was obviously more skilled than everyone else, that i am not contesting

Also, this ignores how Goku was the main factor for these bots being made over time, long before any other data was introduced. The only reason other people's data was involved was because Gero and his Computer found it necessary/wanted to create the strongest thing possible to kill Goku specifically. For years before even that project he was dealing with Goku's information to specifically kill him and failing, which is why the Androids and Cell were even made, and it still took that time to really finish up and get the job done. So regardless his Supercomputer spent a sizable amount of time on Goku specifically.

I mean, yeah, all i am saying is that atributing the 20+ years as being specifically to try and analyse Goku, when many other factors, such as Cell's own growth, being a factor that would make it take longer no matter what is not really accurate

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

More like "better be 100% sure that it will be able to kill him with no mistakes" since all it was doing was trying to find ways to kill goku, plus much of that time was also for Cell to grow and develop his body, so it didn't really had a choice in that aspect, it need for cell to grow, and did stuff in the meantime

But yeah, Goku scales to a Super Computer + "i have all you have but more", that is true


Tbf, in the end he didn't and needed the Super Saiyan and spirit bomb combo to kill 13

But since the Computer was analysing him in real time, yeah, it is still a good feat to keep up with him


They were being analysed in real time, it isn't a situation of them analysing their past data and improving it, they are using the data of them "now" to beat them, still an impressive feat, as i said, i agree with using it as "super computer" level justification, so don't you worry about that

This is kinda semantics, we both agree he scales and we can go back and forth over shit that would really wouldn't make the feat any more impressive as it is, so let's focus on more important shit.

 

[RedReaper616]

And for Cell to grow up to adulthood to be able to fight at all......which we don't know how much time was needed specifically because of that

...

His literal body was done. Like, he literally was there as a larva. His physiology was done. And we know from Cell that once complete he was still a larva, because he had to grow in an egg underground when he force restarted to fit in the time machine.

When completed he didn't have an adult body. He was still in his larva/egg-like state, because when Cell "starts back at square one" (relative to after he's free of the incubator) he literally turns back into exactly that. Then he has to naturally grow and wait for 3 years, getting into his 4 legged form and then eventually Imperfect as he feeds on the bio-energy of others. Again, the rest was solely data and further adjustments.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Cell directly says research is underway when fighting Piccolo and says it won't be ready for 24 years. He doesn't mention anything about that time needing to be him growing physically.

Meaning it was the project of analyzing fight data that took 24 years.

 

[Omegabronic]

...


When completed he didn't have an adult body. He was still in his larva/egg-like state, because when Cell "starts back at square one" (relative to after he's free of the incubator) he literally turns back into exactly that. Then he has to naturally grow and wait for 3 years, getting into his 4 legged form and then eventually Imperfect as he feeds on the bio-energy of others. Again, the rest was solely data and further adjustments.

Huh.......no? I think it is pretty clear that the "completed" state is his adult body

Like, he was a fetus, literally, the process would need to have him actually grow up with good health no matter what, you cannot just ignore that part

 

[Omegabronic]

Cell directly says research is underway when fighting Piccolo and says it won't be ready for 24 years. He doesn't mention anything about that time needing to be him growing physically.

Meaning it was the project of analyzing fight data that took 24 years.

I mean......yeah, they are still getting data to that day thanks to the robot spy, more data being gathered = more time needed to analyse it

His body needing to grow up is just an obvious fact, like.......he can't fight as a fetus