Attack on titan - SP downgrade

[Manhattanth06]

All characters in Attack on Titan will have their speed scaled down to 101 m/s, based on the maximum speed of the 3D Maneuver Gear. This adjustment is made because Zeke Yeager was shown to be unable to react to Levi's high-speed slash when using the gear at full speed.

Feat :

From this feat we can see that Zeke didn't even know that he was being attacked in the eye.


So if he has Supersonic+(1,456m/s) reaction speed, there's no way he can't see an attack that's 14 times slower than him. And this would scale with his human form and the other characters in the story as well.

character speed is categorized as follows:

• Subsonic Travel Speed with 3D Maneuver Gear (101 m/s)
• Subsonic Combat & Reaction Speed, capable of reacting to 101 m/s speed of maneuver gear

Agree : @Vzearr
Disagree : @DMUA , @Syncornize

 

[Shadow_x007x]

Following

 

[Manhattanth06]

Bump

 

[DMUA]

From this feat we can see that Zeke didn't even know that he was being attacked in the eye.

That's not really what's being shown here. He clearly saw and responded to Levi's attack, they just went for an unexpected target after a surprise attack, and without his eyes he was already at a huge disadvantage out the gate. I especially don't get why you'd proceed to say this is an anti-feat, then scale him anyways.

 

[Manhattanth06]

Bump

 

[DMUA]

You're ugh

gonna bump without addressing the glaring issues I discerned with the premise here?

 

[Shadow_x007x]

That's not really what's being shown here. He clearly saw and responded to Levi's attack, they just went for an unexpected target after a surprise attack, and without his eyes he was already at a huge disadvantage out the gate. I especially don't get why you'd proceed to say this is an anti-feat, then scale him anyways.

Not at all. Zeke had already turned around to look at Levi, and then Levi dashed past him, slashing his eye in the process. Zeke clearly stated that he didn’t know why he couldn’t see, which indicates that he wasn’t even aware that Levi had already cut him.

 

[Excellence616]

Isn't Levi the best and fastest at using ODM?

 

[Shadow_x007x]

Isn't Levi the best and fastest at using ODM?

He's not 14 times faster than everyone else or anything like that, the other characters can still catch up with him.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

Following

 

[DMUA]

Zeke had already turned around to look at Levi, and then Levi dashed past him, slashing his eye in the process. Zeke clearly stated that he didn’t know why he couldn’t see, which indicates that he wasn’t even aware that Levi had already cut him.

In this scene, Levi attacking him upfront wasn't a possibility he even considered due to the conditions. Dude essentially came out of nowhere and Zeke did defend himself, only to be baited and have to catch his bearings while blinded. If he was genuinely being blitzed than there wouldn't be any point to attacking anything besides the nape to begin with. You also have to account for the size difference, something much smaller than you that close up is just hard to track regardless of the raw m/s value, look at flies being Below Average Human speed but still being difficult to properly pin down.

He's not 14 times faster than everyone else or anything like that, the other characters can still catch up with him.

You say this like anyone else in the scene manages to evade bullets and eventually escape a task force specifically made to kill people using ODM. It's not like him being way above anyone else is that unusual given he's explicitly able to draw on superhuman power as an Ackerman

 

[Shadow_x007x]

In this scene, Levi attacking him upfront wasn't a possibility he even considered due to the conditions. Dude essentially came out of nowhere and Zeke did defend himself, only to be baited and have to catch his bearings while blinded. If he was genuinely being blitzed than there wouldn't be any point to attacking anything besides the nape to begin with. You also have to account for the size difference, something much smaller than you that close up is just hard to track regardless of the raw m/s value, look at flies being Below Average Human speed but still being difficult to properly pin down.

In the scan, Levi cut off his arm and propelled himself backward toward Zeke. When Zeke became aware of Levi’s presence behind him, he instinctively raised his hand to guard the back of his neck and turned to look at Levi. (In this scan, we can see that Levi appears within Zeke’s field of vision.) However, after that moment, Zeke had no awareness of why he could no longer see Levi.

Given that Levi was initially within Zeke’s line of sight and managed to move through that distance without Zeke perceiving any of his actions, it is nearly impossible for Zeke—whose reaction speed is 14 times greater—to have no awareness of what happened to him. At the very least, he should have realized that Levi had moved past him or something similar.

You say this like anyone else in the scene manages to evade bullets and eventually escape a task force specifically made to kill people using ODM. It's not like him being way above anyone else is that unusual given he's explicitly able to draw on superhuman power as an Ackerman

That does not necessarily mean he should be tens of times faster than other characters. This might only prove that he can accelerate his mobility gear from 0 to 101 m/s faster than others or that he is simply more skilled in its use and reaction timing.

If he were truly tens of times faster than other characters, he would be able to cover much greater distances in the same amount of time. In just a few seconds, he would easily escape pursuit without much difficulty.

 

[DMUA]

However, after that moment, Zeke had no awareness of why he could no longer see Levi.

Given that Levi was initially within Zeke’s line of sight and managed to move through that distance without Zeke perceiving any of his actions

These aren't strictly the same thing. You don't have to blitz someone to do something unexpected and disorient them, especially given that as I mentioned, much smaller targets are simply harder to pin down. If a fly comes towards you from that angle and lands on your eye, you'd be delayed in consciously knowing what happened as well.

it is nearly impossible for Zeke—whose reaction speed is 14 times greater—to have no awareness of what happened to him

Feats take precedent over statements. The ODM doing this is just a feat for it's upper limit (or at least Levi's), what really substantiates it capping at 101 meters per second and thus it must be 14 times slower than Eren being able to block a cannonball?

That does not necessarily mean he should be tens of times faster than other characters.

I don't feel like you read the statement closely. In this scene, guns are fired on several different scouts, Levi is the only one to effectively dodge them as they're fired. He's clearly shown to exceed them in this regard, so they very well might just be faster by direct feats.

This might only prove that he can accelerate his mobility gear from 0 to 101 m/s faster than others or that he is simply more skilled in its use and reaction timing.

Isn't this entire discussion about reactions and combat speed? We distinguish those from travel speed for a reason.

 

[Vzearr]

OP seems fair to me.

 

[Shadow_x007x]

These aren't strictly the same thing. You don't have to blitz someone to do something unexpected and disorient them, especially given that as I mentioned, much smaller targets are simply harder to pin down. If a fly comes towards you from that angle and lands on your eye, you'd be delayed in consciously knowing what happened as well.

Even though we can't avoid the flies that fall into our eyes, we still know that something is about to fall into our eyes. But Zeke has no idea what's happening to him. I don't think he's 14 times faster than 3D Maneuver Gear. They should be about the same speed difference.

Isn't this entire discussion about reactions and combat speed? We distinguish those from travel speed for a reason.

And yes, I am talking about travel speed. According to 3D Maneuver Gear, their travel speeds should not differ significantly. This means that when Levi used 3D Maneuver Gear to reach Zeke’s eye, the result was based on the travel speed of 3D Maneuver Gear itself. Since Zeke was unable to respond effectively, this serves as proof that their speeds should not be vastly different.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

I'm neutral on this but if it gets accepted, I don't think it should apply to ackermans

 

[Shadow_x007x]

I'm neutral on this but if it gets accepted, I don't think it should apply to ackermans

Just because he's an Ackerman doesn't mean he has a 3D Maneuver Gear. His gear has to be 10 times faster than anyone else's.

 

[DMUA]

Even though we can't avoid the flies that fall into our eyes, we still know that something is about to fall into our eyes. But Zeke has no idea what's happening to him.

I think this comes into the territory of phrasing throwing things a little bit off. If he was well and truly being speedblitzed he just wouldn't be able to react to Levi's approach at all, and we do see him defend his nape and get tripped up. His monologue more than anything seems to emphasize he's caught off guard and disoriented, rather than "Levi is moving so fast it's impossible for me to register his actions even after they take effect"

And yes, I am talking about travel speed.

Well, the revision isn't (outside of mentioning ODM being 101 meters per second which is already on the pages), so

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

Just because he's an Ackerman doesn't mean he has a 3D Maneuver Gear. His gear has to be 10 times faster than anyone else's.

What do you mean by that?
What I'm trying to say is that Zeke doesn't scale to ackermans

 

[Manhattanth06]

Bump

 

[Manhattanth06]

It seems there is no more argument? I think we should close this trade.

 

[Syncornize]

So if he has Supersonic+(1,456m/s) reaction speed, there's no way he can't see an attack that's 14 times slower than him. And this would scale with his human form and the other characters in the story as well.

character speed is categorized as follows:

• Subsonic Travel Speed with 3D Maneuver Gear (101 m/s)
• Subsonic Combat & Reaction Speed, capable of reacting to 101 m/s speed of maneuver gear

I don’t agree with the downgrade.

Supersonic speed is a very consistent factor. Titans like Eren and Levi themselves have shown the ability to face bullets. The skill component in this fight must also be analyzed and considered. (In general, assuming it's valid, it's simply the fight that doesn't demonstrate consistency with the rest.)

1) At that moment, Zeke only had one arm, and he used it to cover the most obvious and vulnerable part.

2) Levi's size makes it difficult to target a small moving object and predict its trajectory. If the distance between the two targets is equally small, without particular analytical abilities, you won't realize the true target until it's already too close. The situation is made even more complicated by Levi's position, starting much lower than Zeke's face, making it difficult to determine his final destination. As I said earlier, Levi will already be very close by the time Zeke realizes.

3) Zeke would have had to make a long or very awkward movement due to the position of his arm. Combining the first two points, Zeke fell victim to Levi's strategy. if Zeke had reacted it should be more than Levi's current speed

Additional points in favor of the combat skill argument: it's the foundation of combat in AOT. The Survey Corps are trained not only to use the 3D maneuver gear but also to follow attack patterns. This is because even smaller Titans can grab them in midair. Of course, this remains a difficult task, and the example of Dmua can give us an idea of this.

Levi was only a couple of meters away from Zeke. If he hadn’t understood the direction, and if we consider it like the trajectory of a punch or a regular blow, Zeke should have been much slower. If all of this were without skill and strategy, killing Titans would be very easy. As the series shows, it's far from a simple task.