Toei DBZ Upgrades (High Universal for Movies 7 and 8)

[Naeem0304]

Super Android 13 Movie Translations

Left side: "Infinite Power Super Warriors!! Introducing all characters!"

Bottom: "Son Goku, the strongest man in the entire galaxy! And three artificial humans who relentlessly aim for his life!! Let's tell only you about all of the strongest warriors who collide with infinite power and engage in a fierce battle!"

What's important is that infinite power is not only coalesced with "Super Warriors", but the bottom text says "tell you only about ALL of the strongest warriors who collide with infinite power".

Source: Dragon Ball Movies Comics Translated
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This should grant Movie 7 characters a High Universal Upgrade.
Metal Cooler Movie Translations

The last battle
The core of the mechanical planet in Metal Cooler's body absorbs the life energy of the Super Saiyans, but it overheats due to its infinite power! Thanks to this, Gohan and his friends escape safely, and Goku, with Vegeta's help, destroys the core and the machine planet...

Source: Toei Anime Fair Pamphlets
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Goku and Vegeta's power is stated to be infinite. The High-Universal upgrade was rejected in this thread titled "Meta Cooler upgrade?" However, this statement should validate the rating.

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Results:
1. Movie 7 & Movie 8 characters should receive a High Universe Level upgrade.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

It seems good

 

[StarShooter80]

These just look like hyperbolic claims

 

[Damage3245]

Is there anything supporting the characters being literally infinite outside of these statements?

 

[StarShooter80]

These just look like hyperbolic claims

I’ll be expanding my point more since just slapping a “hyperbole lol” just feels disingenuous. Infinite in a lot of cases is just a hyperbolic saying for someone’s power or something in general being extremely huge/a lot. There’s no reason to believe that’s any different here with just 3 statements.

It’s not backed up by any feats either, for example let’s say a guide says Frieza in the manga can destroy small stars, that’s consistent with him severely upscaling from characters who can destroy large planets.

Furthermore, Toei/Movie Continuity Cell’s several infinite power/destruction statements are actually backed up by a restrained (base Goku level) Broly being able to destroy parts of the infinite universe.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Is there anything supporting the characters being literally infinite outside of these statements?

From the above Androids it seems to be infinite energy and they are like Android 17

 

[Damage3245]

From the above Androids it seems to be infinite energy and they are like Android 17

The Androids moreso have endless energy generation; not infinite power in the sense of infinitely powerful attacks.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

The Androids moreso have endless energy generation; not infinite power in the sense of infinitely powerful attacks.

But isn't it the same thing? Infinite energy = infinite power

We even see Androids giving energy to genki dama

 

[Damage3245]

But isn't it the same thing? Infinite energy = infinite power

We even see Androids giving energy to genki dama

No; it's like the Edo Tensei from Naruto. They will never deplete in stamina / energy. It doesn't make them infinitely powerful.

 

[DivineAura44]

Pretty sure y'all agree, just don't understand each other?

 

[Hayato5652]

Left side: "Infinite Power Super Warriors!! Introducing all characters!"

Bottom: "Son Goku, the strongest man in the entire galaxy! And three artificial humans who relentlessly aim for his life!! Let's tell only you about all of the strongest warriors who collide with infinite power and engage in a fierce battle!"

It seems good
but...
I'm a bit unsure about this text, it feels vague because it's not clear
Can you offer anything else?Please?

Maybe the translations of this scan have been approved, and I’m not aware of it.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

No; it's like the Edo Tensei from Naruto. They will never deplete in stamina / energy. It doesn't make them infinitely powerful.

Basically the energy they have is infinite, they can never get tired because they have infinite stamina.


For me, if a character has infinite energy, then he has all infinite attributes including speed and power.

 

[Hayato5652]

I think infinite energy = infinite power = infinite speed.

Because ki is directly connected to speed, power, and AP

 

[Damage3245]

For me, if a character has infinite energy, then he has all infinite attributes including speed and power.

Okay... Why should anyone else agree with that?

 

[Naeem0304]

The supporting evidence, at least in the case of Movie 8, derives from its timeline placement; which I why I linked a CRT that proposed the High-Universal rating. It was rejected due to continuity issues, however, the above text attributes “infinite energy” to Goku & Vegeta. The same applies to the Movie 7 scans.

In regards to the text being “hyperbolic”, I’d agree, but this is the same guidebook with the “Gogeta producing a big bang level explosion”, which is accepted as evidence for Low Multiversal; of course, it’s being backed up by other sources but the fact the same guidebook is being used on this site should mean something.

At bare minimum, the fact an “infinite power” statement exists for the Metal Cooler movie Goku & Vegeta, who once again, are in the era of the Cell Games countdown, shouldn’t be dismissed. If anything, them going from Galaxy Level to High Universal within the span of a few days would be a glaring issue.

With the amount of continuity issues that Toei and the Z Films already have, I’m of the opinion that dismissing aspects of it due to said issues is a little problematic, but I’d like to hear more thoughts

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Neutral until further discussion

 

[CelestialVortex01]

Since the universe in Toei is accepted to be High 3-A, I don't think this could be considered as a stretch, although icl two statements doesn't seem to be sufficient, ig if you could find one more statement it'd be enough?
I'm currently neutral about all this, leaning to an agreement.

 

[Plants_vs_zombies_fan101]

idk why but when I seen this I thought this was about cell universe destroying statements and arguments but to be fair this lacks really any evidence outside of just hyperbolic statements it be best to use dbz anddbs statements and evidence about how they actually do have infinite power/energy as supporting evidence for this to be backup

 

[StarShooter80]

I think infinite energy = infinite power = infinite speed.

Because ki is directly connected to speed, power, and AP

Androids don’t have ki

Even then that’s debunked by the fact that stronger characters have finite ki that can run out, which doesn’t make sense if they have infinite power, since it should supposedly work likewise

In regards to the text being “hyperbolic”, I’d agree, but this is the same guidebook with the “Gogeta producing a big bang level explosion”, which is accepted as evidence for Low Multiversal; of course, it’s being backed up by other sources but the fact the same guidebook is being used on this site should mean something.

Using the guidebook as reliable material doesn’t make it always right. It’s like saying “this daizenshuu statement cannot be wrong because we use the daizenshuu”.

Also why mention but at the same time dismiss the fact that Gogeta is backed up by feats? That’s a glaring issue Movie

At bare minimum, the fact an “infinite power” statement exists for the Metal Cooler movie Goku & Vegeta, who once again, are in the era of the Cell Games countdown, shouldn’t be dismissed. If anything, them going from Galaxy Level to High Universal within the span of a few days would be a glaring issue.

The characters after the start of the android saga use the hyperbolic time chamber for a year or more, with their power resulting in dwarfing what they had previously entirely, it’s not an issue.

If you’re arguing that the Return of Cooler takes place in the Cell Games countdown then this isn’t even an upgrade since Post-RoSaT Goku and Post-second RoSaT Vegeta are already High 3-A.

 

[Naeem0304]

Using the guidebook as reliable material doesn’t make it always right. It’s like saying “this daizenshuu statement cannot be wrong because we use the daizenshuu”. Also why mention but at the same time dismiss the fact that Gogeta is backed up by feats? That’s a glaring issue

The characters after the start of the android saga use the hyperbolic time chamber for a year or more, with their power resulting in dwarfing what they had previously entirely, it’s not an issue.

If you’re arguing that the Return of Cooler takes place in the Cell Games countdown then this isn’t even an upgrade since Post-RoSaT Goku and Post-second RoSaT Vegeta are already High 3-A.

1. I agree with the first part. As for the second one, there’s no insinuation towards a denial to Gogeta’s scaling. Movie 8 is backed up by literally taking place before the Cell Games. This isn’t a guidebook-reliant claim; Dende is Guardian of the Earth in-film, which occurs after Goku’s training in the ROSAT. Unless there’s full on evidence to motion a clear denial of said scaling for Movie 8, then I don’t see how it’s a glaring issue.

2. I know.

3. The issue is that Metal Cooler and the specific Goku/Vegeta from that film are rated at Galaxy Level. I guess calling it a revision is fair.

 

[DivineAura44]

Using the guidebook as reliable material doesn’t make it always right. It’s like saying “this daizenshuu statement cannot be wrong because we use the daizenshuu”.

Agree with your conclusion but unless it's contradicted than yes, we'd typically take it as true.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

1. I agree with the first part. As for the second one, there’s no insinuation towards a denial to Gogeta’s scaling. Movie 8 is backed up by literally taking place before the Cell Games. This isn’t a guidebook-reliant claim; Dende is Guardian of the Earth in-film, which occurs after Goku’s training in the ROSAT. Unless there’s full on evidence to motion a clear denial of said scaling for Movie 8, then I don’t see how it’s a glaring issue.

The film was aired even before Dende was selected as the new Kami in the manga, Toei smoked crack to make up the story or somehow got info from Toriyama 7 months before the chapter where Dende becomes Kami was printed

And Gohan can't even use super saiyan in the film, by that point in the manga with dende as Kami, he was able to do it

 

[KingTempest]

Having an infinite source of power doesn't mean that you... utilize all of it per blow?

The androids in the canon manga have infinite energy sources. They don't have infinite attack potency.

 

[StekFence]

For me, if a character has infinite energy, then he has all infinite attributes including speed and power.

You are wrong. In this case, it refers to something closer to stamina. They could run forever because their energy reserves will never deplete. But they cannot put infinite energy into running in one go, so they don’t run at infinite speed. I guess it would be like how in a video game, you could have infinite mp, but the cost of an attack stays the same.

 

[Da3ggman]

Why are all of these movies treated like they’re in the same timeline? That makes literally no sense lmao

Anyway uhhhh the argument that the infinite power statements for the androids being invalid because they could be referring to infinite energy reserves is bad.

"Infinite Power Super Warriors!! Introducing all characters!"

This is straight up talking about all the fighters in the movie, hence the inclusion of “all characters” in the next sentence. Makes no sense if they were just talking about the androids.

“Son Goku, the strongest man in the entire galaxy! And three artificial humans who relentlessly aim for his life!! Let's tell only you about all of the strongest warriors who collide with infinite power and engage in a fierce battle!"

This is also talking about “all the strongest warriors”, and doesn’t focus on the androids specifically. Additionally, the androids never fight each other, so it can’t just be them “colliding” with infinite power; meaning, it has to be one of the main characters, so…you can fill in the rest.

Both statements encompass multiple characters that are not androids, like Goku and Vegeta, unless you want to argue that they also have infinite amounts of ki, which obviously ain’t true.

As for the actual proposal, I’m neutral. They all sort of seem pretty hyperbolic, especially the Android 13 ones, but if it’s consistent with the made up movie timeline, then sure.

Now, what we really need to talk about is immeasurable speed from Metal Cooler-

 

[StarShooter80]

1. I agree with the first part. As for the second one, there’s no insinuation towards a denial to Gogeta’s scaling. Movie 8 is backed up by literally taking place before the Cell Games. This isn’t a guidebook-reliant claim; Dende is Guardian of the Earth in-film, which occurs after Goku’s training in the ROSAT. Unless there’s full on evidence to motion a clear denial of said scaling for Movie 8, then I don’t see how it’s a glaring issue.

I’ve never denied Gogeta’s scaling, I’m just saying it’s not contradictory to accept that as valid and not the other statements.

Movie 8 being during the Cell Games was already brought up and rejected before, so either argue it again and edit it into the OP or don’t argue for that at all.

 

[Naeem0304]

Why are all of these movies treated like they’re in the same timeline? That makes literally no sense lmao

Anyway uhhhh the argument that the infinite power statements for the androids being invalid because they could be referring to infinite energy reserves is bad.

"Infinite Power Super Warriors!! Introducing all characters!"

This is straight up talking about all the fighters in the movie, hence the inclusion of “all characters” in the next sentence. Makes no sense if they were just talking about the androids.

“Son Goku, the strongest man in the entire galaxy! And three artificial humans who relentlessly aim for his life!! Let's tell only you about all of the strongest warriors who collide with infinite power and engage in a fierce battle!"

This is also talking about “all the strongest warriors”, and doesn’t focus on the androids specifically. Additionally, the androids never fight each other, so it can’t just be them “colliding” with infinite power; meaning, it has to be one of the main characters, so…you can fill in the rest.

Both statements encompass multiple characters that are not androids, like Goku and Vegeta, unless you want to argue that they also have infinite amounts of ki, which obviously ain’t true.

As for the actual proposal, I’m neutral. They all sort of seem pretty hyperbolic, especially the Android 13 ones, but if it’s consistent with the made up movie timeline, then sure.

Now, what we really need to talk about is immeasurable speed from Metal Cooler-

Jesus Christ, you actually read the post too; I bolded and stated those two things for a reason. You can cook, chef

Also I have no idea how all these movies are in the same timeline either, but unfortunately it's not that type of thread

 

[Naeem0304]

Movie 8 being during the Cell Games was already brought up and rejected before, so either argue it again and edit it into the OP or don’t argue for that at all.

What I don't get is how that rejection even happened when the VSBW's front page for Toei's "canonicity" has these exact quotes:

Now, why am I bringing this all up? Do I want to decanonize everything? I mean, yeah, there's inconsistencies, but they're also blatantly canon, so obviously the option here is to just overlook the inconsistencies and roll with the punches, right? And like, yeah, exactly. This is what we all do for these films. My issue here is how we not only go about this haphazardly, when by the logic we espouse for the 3 films (given Fusion Reborn is being contested by Omega) should be applied to other films, and how we ignore the fact that, canonically as of Fusion Reborn, all the films share one timeline. So, more specifically, I want to canonize all the films.

Super Android 13 is connected as part of the history of Gero's development the Doctor went through to create Super 17. We also know that the movie villains (only Cooler has been spotted) being seen in GT was an intentional thing as all of the previous enemies Goku and co. fought in Dragon Ball. This, again, connects the history of the Toei Films and that of the Toei Anime, making them one long (inconsistent and contradictory) history.

The Dead Zone film must due to the Garlic Jr. Saga, which directly references that film's events. Cooler's Revenge must exist because of his cameo in GT. Fusion Reborn is (contentiously) accepted as canon (and before this thread, was in question by OmegaBronic) due to the GT Perfect Files' mention of that being Gogeta's first appearance, and due to uncanny references to that film. (Vegeta "messing up the right finger" is an indirect reference to when Vegeta did so in the film, Gogeta directly quotes himself from that film etc.) Wrath of the Dragon is considered canon due to the Super Dragon Fist and Trunks having Tapion's Sword, plot elements introduced there.

That's all I got for now. With all of this in mind, all of the films are necessarily canon, as they are ALL connected, so even if only ONE was, they should all be canon regardless via the mountain of evidence here, and they on their own display a large amount of canonity to the Anime.

I just find it hilarious how there are still rejections because of "source material contradiction" when the canonicity page for said verse acknowledges but accepts the contradictions and considers every film as part of the timeline.

I don't know how Return of Cooler being "Cell Games Era" is so bad when that's not even the worst contradiction when assuming all movies = one timeline.

 

[StarShooter80]

What I don't get is how that rejection even happened when the VSBW's front page for Toei's "canonicity" has these exact quotes:




I just find it hilarious how there are still rejections because of "source material contradiction" when the canonicity page for said verse acknowledges but accepts the contradictions and considers every film as part of the timeline.

I don't know how Return of Cooler being "Cell Games Era" is so bad when that's not even the worst contradiction when assuming all movies = one timeline.

Nothing of what I said was related to Return of Cooler being non-canon, just that it got rejected for taking place in the remaining days until the Cell Games instead of the 3 years preparing for the androids

So either argue for that again in your OP or don’t

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Sounds more in common with Android 17 and 18 having infinite stamina rather than High 3-A AP. So I agree more with the opposition.

 

[Da3ggman]

Sounds more in common with Android 17 and 18 having infinite stamina rather than High 3-A AP. So I agree more with the opposition.

???

The quotes are literally referring to characters other than the androids. If you’re going to disagree with it, it literally cannot be based on the statements talking about a their “infinite stamina”.

 

[Hayato5652]

Bump

 

[RedReaper616]

Yeah, no. I went over this in a different thread--While yes, in multiple locations throughout the guides the Ki of the fighters, most notably the Saiyans, are considered "Infinite," and has even been brought up in the series, this is not because they have INFINITE STAMINA or INFINITE POWER. It's just something they SEEM to have, in relation to ordinary Ki Signatures. We know this because Baby describes the "bottomlessness" of Saiya Power itself is what allowed Trunks to escape his grasp. It's solely a description of how their Ki FEELS. Or at least, that's how I understood it should be interpreted given the very consistent amount of times its stated they have this "bottomless/infinite/endless" Ki, given Saiyans demonstrably don't have infinite physical power and can get tired.

EDIT: This is why it's listed as apart of GT Goku's "Social Influencing," specifically, and not in his AP, Stamina, etc.