Um, what? Mark and Thragg only fought on the surface of the sun for a few minutes.
Except they didn't, they were actively unharmed by the surface, and began to fight deeper in. We just had two CRT's on this.
Yes, that counts as heat resistance, not denying that, but that was not my argument. The Sun's surface is
5778 kelvin, meanwhile the core of the Earth is
6150 kelvin. Now take into account the fact that Viltrum has 1.25x Earth's gravity, meanwhile Saturn has only 1.06x Earth's gravity, and Viltrum's core could be in the ranges of over 15,000 degrees fahrenheit, which is 8588 kelvin. Sure, that likely would not kill them on impact, but the statement that Thaedus makes is never that it's
guranteed to kill them; it's that it
could kill them. By shooting the gun at the Planet's core, it removes that risk. Thaedus is not a supergenius human calculator, he does not have estimates on how how the cores of Planets are on the fly, he simply did not want to take a risk that it could kill them. Heat resistance does not make you literally immune to any sort of temperature no matter how hot,
the handbook literally debunks this notion.
What the hell are you yapping about? They have heat res of like 100,000,000c accepted right now as long as it's in short bursts.
It's only for a long sustained amount of time, ya know, like minutes, does it actually begin to harm them badly.
You're making things up, stop.
The characters that can tank nukes, the characters that can fightin stars, the characters that in the SAME scene tank an exploding planet (millions of degrees), are NOT being hurt by a second or two dip through a planet.
This is headcanon, conjecture, not fact, and headcanon that is not only going against accepted standards, ie, you don't have an argument, go downgrade them or stop arguing, but one that isn't even consistent within that very same scene.
Goddamn, please actually listen when people tell youw e JUST had CRT's for this.
Now to make things perfectly clear, the entire point that reply was moreso just a devil's advocate explanation,
Don't. Like actually don't. Why are you wasting people's time with that?
I literally conceded that it doesn't change the fact that they didn't single-handedly overcome the GBE. It was never meant to be an actual debunk or counter to anything you said, it was just me proposing a different possibility as to why Thaedus said that.
Possibility is not fact. It doesn't even work because he explicitly says impact, that directly implicates physical collision is the issue, not heat.
Admittedly, the claim itself is likely Occam's Razor anyway, but again, it doesn't matter because they cannot scale to the GBE regardless, which I conceded to. I was not trying to debunk that.
It isn't. It contradicts feats they have in that SAME scene. They literally fly through the core's heat just fine, and then proceed to get hit by the exploding planet.
if you concede, don't waste my time.
Again, I was not at all trying to argue otherwise, my reply literally says that it isn't scaling to the GBE regardless of how you interpret it. What's the issue?
Your reply, is wrong on all fronts, stay consistent.
And also, my claim was that if the reason they could have "died on impact" by hitting the core was literally only because they would have literally splattered upon hitting it, then that means they are getting killed by at absolute best Relativistic force, also at best, Large Mountain level.
No. I'm not doing this with you, stop throwing out values that aren't even true.
This isn't how shit works. They can be moving at 1mps and blow out a planet, it doesn't matter, speed doesn't matter, they're inherently strong. You're acting like all destruction feats need to have the exact speed that correlates to the destruction, well, newsflash, it doesn't, not only is that not how the wiki works, otherwise anyone above 7-C would be relativistic in speed, but we're talking about characters that can literally devastate planets from a standstill.
And again, no, plowing through a core isn't High 7-A, I'm not arguing your objectively false claims like that, stop saying things if you can't math them out properly.
And who gives a shit about the could die on impact claim? That doesn't effect the feat, your claims, or anything at all.
The upheavel of mass afterwards was only possible due to Space Racer shooting the gun at the core, otherwise they would not have surviving colliding into it, going by this intrepetation.
No? We only factor in the mass they visibly lifted up on their exit. You'd be right, we don't include anything else, we sure as hell ain't including the core in that, just the lifted up mantle.
His gun enabled them to plow through it safely, probably helped cause the explosion too, which is why we don't scale them to that. Only the part we 100% know they did, which, is just low 5-B.
Slamming into a core, regardless of how fast, is not anywhere near Low 5-B on it's own, which means going by the interpetation that that alone could have killed them, they could not survive that amount of force. Period.
Man, I'm trying to be nice here but you're making it very difficult.
Not the point. The point was that simply naming off the gravity of a Planet and comparing it to Earth's does not say anything about it's size on it's own. Moreover, you talk about "headcanon" and "guesswork" while simultaneously assuming Viltrum has Earth-like density based off of nothing beyond the fact it kinda resembles Earth even thought it really doesn't.
Rocky planet that very clearly resembles planet earth, having similar landmasses, mountains, and more, with a similar rocky mantle, etc.
Is somehow now earth-like?
Ok, the alternative is nothing, at all, we don't upgrade shit. Not even the small upgrade you could probably actually get away with due to it being reasonable.
That or we downgrade the feat because if sure as hell isn't a gas giant, and as such the only other option is that it's denser than earth, which would make it SMALLER and thus lower the volume, ejected mass and sped of the feat.
Yes, and the mass ejected by the Planet
also moves thousands of kilometers as Mark, Nolan, and Thaedus finish their flight path exiting Viltrum's core. It moves a comparable distance to them in the timeframe it takes for them to exit, if it didn't, Mark, Nolan, and Thaedus would literally be floating there for several minutes to even
hours in this same position in order for the mass to move the distance it did.
Based on what? The only time we can compare where they are, and the ejected mass, is when theyre a planet;'s distance away already.
This is it, this is the only panel, and they're thousands of km away while the mass is still being lifted and ejected out, and then they go on to box, grapple, etc.
This isn't even up for debate did you even actually calculate it? Assume they're moving at 99c, they just cleared thousands of kilometers PAST the ejected debris, that are in the process of still being ejected.
What, did the debris suddenly slow down by thousands of times instantly the exact instance we actually learn where the characters are relative to the planet?
Please do not tell me that
this scan right after the part where we see Viltrum's mass ejected occurs for several minutes straight with all three of them frozen in this position just because "Well it's a static comic!!!". Static comics with no timeframe don't mean anything when common sense makes it obvious that it was not anywhere near as long as your claiming, stop appealing to possibility.
Dude. You didn't even calc it, have you? Do you even know how fast relativistic is?
Assume that whole scene takes 1 second, just ONE second.
You're not getting anywhere close to relativistic.
Your common sense, unfortunately, isn't quite so common lad, you're ignoring how fast these values even are, making hilarious strawmans, as if the scene needs to take minutes to debunk your entire CRT when really, just a few seconds, like you yourself said, is enough.
Appeal to possibility? Your entire argument is based upon hypotheticals not based on actual fact.
Yeh, I've read it, it's based on assumptions, not fact.
Except you're assuming that line is them, yet we know it isn't,
Again, do we see them covered in flames? No, you don't. They extended past that point, do you think they're gonna be immolated forever? Couple that with the fact you're using a statement that doesn;'t even apply to that scene, this ain't how shit works.
You're making an assumption, using an assumption, arguing it as fact, and thinking it's gonna fly.
If the Mass was really only flying at around 12.5 km/s, then the mass would take three minutes to move the distance it objectively moves while Mark, Nolan, and Thaedus are literally frozen in this position, mouths open and hands straight out, while the other Viltrumites trying to kill them are just sitting on their ass watching it happen despite easily being able to catch up to them in seconds. Do you not have any idea how ridiculous this sounds? The only other possibility is that their flight path also three minutes, which congratulations, is not even slightly close to MFTL+ or even Relativistic+, so we both can go home and call it a day, both our interpretations are debunked. But alas, that isn't the case for obvious reasons, and the feat is already estimated as being MFTL+ by both you and the pages on the wiki which scale their reaction time by reacting to approaching the Planet.
Nice strawman, I never said it moved 12.5kms, that was in regards to you yapping about escape velocity, in which case, yeah no shit it's quicker than escape velocity, and? It being quicker than escape velocity doesn't support your claims of it being as fast as you want it to be. You just argued my own argument for me even, yeah it doesn't take that long, so why tf are you bringing up being faster than escape velocity as if it somehow supports you? It doesn't.
And that last bit, dude, why are you arguing for MFTL KE? I don't think you understand, I don't give a shit how strong they are, they could be 9-B or 3-A for all I care, I only care that we index it properly, so arguing that it's actually MFTL+ KE? Not a good idea, if you want to downgrade it, I will actively do so.
Yes, Nolan, Mark, and Thaedus are
frozen in these positions for several minutes just for the mass to move a couple thousand kilometers. The rest of the Viltrumites are sitting on their ass watching it all go down while this happens. Obviously since this is a static comic, that has to be the case right? We can't estimate how much time it took regardless of what kind of logic or critical thinking we use just because it's a static comic, right? Please, take a few seconds to read what I just said and what I said above and please genuinely try to consider how ridiculous this sounds. It makes no sense whatsoever both narratively and just by common sense for the mass to have taken several minutes to move before Mark, Nolan, and Thaedus moved from this position, period. Otherwise again, like we both said, it's not Relativistic and we can both go home. Take a long while to think about this.
I think you need to stop setting up strawmans, learn to read what I say properly, and actually knock it off before you dig yourself an even deeper hole.
Nobody is saying it took minutes. What people are saying, is that it DOESN'T scale to their speed, at all, even remotely, they blitz the shit out of it, in a way you can;t even calculate it.
You can not ASSUME a speed for them, that's calc stacking.
The statement you're clinging to has NOTHING to do with the feat in question, being rel and damaging a planet, and damaging a planet in general, are not mutual.
And if we assume top speed, which it would be, given Mark could barely keep up, based on your presumptions, you would be downgrading it because it'd be MFTL KE.
There is no world where we assume just rel, and work with it based on the hyperinflated calc, it's what we see or MFTL, no inbetween.
Yes, because characters moving at MFTL+ speeds objectively take a few seconds to travel through the Planet's diameter.
It could if they're like, ya know, traveling through ten fucktrillion miles of rock.
And at that point, why are we assuming a speed for them? They could be moving MFTL+, or even just MHS, or anything inbetween, hell maybe that's a good thing even, would explain why the instant they leave the planet and aren't having to drag quadrillions of tons of rock with them, do they suddenly overtake the explosion by exponents.
That or they're MFTL, and it's MFTL KE and feat sucks now good job.
Pick one.
A characters' speed in VS stats is not constant throughout their verse just because of how we rank them.
They have more MFTL statements in that ARC than a contradicted, inconsistent, rel statement that doesn't even apply to the feat in question.
And we know it was top speed, because mark, who, in the next issue outspeeds the fastest ship they have, which is stated FTL, could barely keep up.
Unless you wanna try and argue some form of time dilation, which would be far more of a headcanon than anything your claiming I proposed is, there's no reasonable way to argue they were actually travelling at MFTL+ speeds yet still objectively took several seconds to approach the Planet. Again, let me break this down for you.
Who said it took them seconds to approach it? Who gives a shit how long it took them to approach, who gives a shit how long it took them to leave.
The blast doesn't scale to them, they eclipse it.
But, in the vain you want to argue the blast IS scaling to them, congratulations, it'd be MFTL KE given they're millions of times quicker than the speed of light. If, you do not like that, go downgrade them.
The Planet's diameter is 12756 km. At best, in order for Nolan to even drag Mark along and look at him, along with Thaedus to say "FASTER, FASTER!" in his head, the time it takes to go through the diameter of the Planet is at least 10 seconds.
No, it isn't. They don't say that, they don't do anything, they don't even imply a damn thing, stop making things up.
Show me where they say 10 seconds, if you can not do so I'm going to be taking this to RVR for fabrication of evidence.
Yes, it objectively has to be in the range of that just by the fact Thaedus' thoughts are heard and are spoken in the same timeframe of speech.
Are we forgetting these characters are MFTL+?
Are we forgetting they can think at those speeds? And this is telepathy?
And when the series inevitably animates this, do not try and tell me that it's gonna take literally less than a single frame for them to travel through the Planet's diameter because "They were moving at MFTL+ speeds! Timeframe has to be literally spoken and we cannot estimate it whatsoever regardless of what our common sense tells us!". It objectively takes them at least 10 seconds to go through the Planet's diameter. MFTL+ characters cannot do this.
Oh my god you are huh?
Ok well first off, we don't allow that, talking is a free action, we don't use MFTL+ characters yapping at max speed to find a timeframe, hell we aren't even allowed to do that for normal stuff.
Secondly, calc stacking.
Thirdly, dude's MFTL, you think the MFTL+ dude exclaiming to go as fast as possible, o much so the other MFTL+ dude can't keep up, is actually only moving at what, MHS? Funnily enough.
Fourthly, this would mean they're not going at rel speeds, if it took 10 seconds, they'd be way below rel to cover that distance, so good job, you once again sabotaged your own argument.
And also, doing so would still require speeds over 1,275,600 m/s, which while not near Relativistic, is still only half the range of that,
As in not relativistic, as in the statement doesn't apply (it didn't to begin with), but now you confirmed it, as in you can't use it because they weren't going at rel speeds, apparently.
Good job, you debunked your own CRT.
and comparing the distance the Mass was ejected once they flew through the other side of the Planet would still give the Mass MHS speeds, which still upgrades the feat by a decent amount. I would not be opposed to this.
Wrong, now we have no idea how fast they were going, you debunked rel, you don;'t want to use their actual top speeds, so now we have nothing. We just have to assume a timeframe, and given wiki standards, and how many panels it happened across, it's gonna be quite a few seconds.
What you're opposed to doesn't matter, you're just throwing out words and praying something sticks, you've ACTIVELY argued against your own proposal unintentionally ffs.
Oh and also, it only takes them that timeframe to move into the surface of the Planet. It could have been significantly easier and they could have been moving tremendously faster after exiting the Planet, and thus could have been moving at Relativistic+ speeds.
Yeah maybe, or maybe not. If your argument hinges on "could", "maybe", etc, it isn't an argument, it's a waste of our time.
You need to PROVE these things. Using a timeframe that you made up, to then segue into this other headcanon, isn't how this works.
But the worst part is? I already pointed this out above, and it wouldn't upgrade anything, it would literally debunk every argument you have.
Under this logic they could easily enter the planet at MFTL+ speeds, take a few seconds going through the planet due to the mass in the way, and then exit again at ludicrously dumb speeds, which would explain why they burst out and eclipse the mass ejection in speed, far beyond what you're trying to argue for, or, if you somehow still want to argue scaling mass to them, MFTL KE because we have zero reason to arbitrarily cap them at rel+ on exit when they have far more MFTL statements by that point, which would invalidate the feat, again.
The scene with "Nolan dragging Mark to keep up" only occurs when they're flying into the Planet and approaching it, not as they're exiting it. And you know what? If the mass is moving at FTL speeds, sure, go ahead and downgrade the feat, honestly. The Thragg statement still puts the top-tiers of the verse at 5-C, and with a 10x boost maybe still Low 5-B, I don't know the values off the top of my head.
Why tf would I do that? fact of the matter is, you're wrong on all fronts, what we have right now is conservative, safe, fair, and doesn't assume shit.
You're assuming shit, and using said assumptions to inflate values, but your assumptions would downgrade them. How about we just don't use your wild assumptions and index things properly?
I mean, again, no, not really. Common sense and context clues tell us right away that they were not floating there and fighting literally for several minutes just for the mass to keep up, the fact that that scene will get animated alone disproves that notion entirely. There's no conceivable way that when the scene gets animated it will last for 3 to 5 minutes while the mass ejected is moving slowly in the background towards them, and the explosion afterwards is slow-motion. The only way that would happen is if the episode deviates from the comic and a longer fight scene is added, but that's an appeal to possibility at it's finest.
Why are you strawmanning?
It's obnoxious, stop.
The explosion could be ten fucktrillion mps and still be slower than them by magnitudes, they're MFTL.
When the show happens, we can use whatever timeframe the show gives, instead of doing mental gymnastics and making excuses for why unsubstantiated things should be used.
Honestly, I lowkey expect the show to be like 5-B, maybe 5-A, at least for the upheaval, probably happen over the course of 3-4 seconds, and then the explosion and grappling probably happens over the next 10-15 or some shit. I don't know, neither do you, and I really don't care because it hasn't happened yet, and it doesn't excuse you throwing out words and unsupported claims.
We do not need a literal stated timeframe in order to employ basic logic and common sense to deduce that it taking several minutes for them to be punching each other while the mass is only slowly moving towards them the whole time with them not doing anything to move from it makes absolutely no sense in any sort of narrative context or the fact that this scene will inevitably be animated and will almost certainly not last that long. Please genuinely think about what your saying and how ridiculous it sounds.
It'd be REAL NICE if I ever said it took minutes.
Me saying your timeframe is made up, isn't me saying it took minutes, say it again and I'm reporting your ass.
Again, sure, go ahead and downgrade it then.
Again, why would I? I'm saying your arguments are wrong, and all they amount to, is a downgrade.
But the fact it took them several seconds to fly into the Planet's surface tells us that them travelling anywhere near MFTL+ speeds is ridiculous to assert.
Based on what? You made up a timeframe and are now asserting that as fact?
Give me a stated timeframe.
Robert Kirkman is not constantly thinking about the fact that his characters have shown MFTL+ speed feats and was certainly not considering that here in order to write a dramatic scene where they fly into the Planet.
He's also not constantly thinking they're 5-A or some shit, what sort of argument is this? I don't give a damn what he thinks, if the comic says a bunch of stuff, hard stated MFTL feats, even in that very fight, even in the immediate following scenes, that
1. Is a hell of a lot more consistent and supported than whatever you're arguing.
2. Death of the author, if the work says otherwise, we take the work, not wog.
3. This isn't an argument, you're making assumptions again instead of giving facts.
If he was, the feat would have occured literally instantly. A character moving at even just 3x FTL would fly through that Planet's diameter in literally milliseconds, which to suggest will be animated or that that's how long it actually took based off of what the story shows us is beyond ridiculous and objectively false. Again, if the Mass is only moving at MHS speeds, go ahead and just use that, it's still a decent upgrade.
This kid is for real huh?
Talking is a free action.
We know they were at top speed. They are explicitly noted MFTL.
Cinematic timing is a thing.
This is a comic book, the actual approach is impossible to quantify.
How it's animated doesn't matter because again cinematic timing, we can see them fight even when they're moving at stated supersonic or FTL speeds, that's just how media works, I shouldn't have to explain this.
No, we're not upgrading shit off a maybe, you need to prove it.
This is not even mentioning the fact that assuming they're travelling at MFTL+ speeds here technically qualifies as calc-stacking. We specifically do not use constant speed values taken from other calcs to gauge how quickly it took for a character to attack something for other kinetic energy calcs. We judge the speed they're moving on a case-by-case basis.
Statement actually, saying they can fly ten quadrillion miles in a day isn't calc stacking, it's a statement.
We know they're at top speed in this scene, they say as much (And even confirm a few issues later Mark was at top speed), thus any speed/distance/time statements would apply as the "we don't know if theyre always at said speed" is solved.
Thus, the character stated to be at top speed, with MFTL statements, and stated to be quicker than things with direct straight up "faster than light" statements like coalition ships, isn't calc stacking, it's exactly what you're doing but with far more substance to it.
No different from you wanting to use the contradicted relativistic statement. That case-by-case thing falls flat because we know he's at top speed.
Moving through the diameter of Earth in 10 seconds is 1,275,600 m/s, which is 42.5% of being Sub-Relativistic.
Which isn't relativistic, which means your calc is wrong, which means we don't assume a speed.
Again, I'm not opposed to calcing how long it took for them to go through the Planet's diameter and using that as a basis to estimate how fast the mass was moving.
Which we can't do because it's a static medium and thus need to wait for the damn show.
The point was that if the three Viltrumites were indeed moving at MFTL+ speeds, then the mass is still at minimum moving at escape velocity, meaning MFTL+ flight speed would only disregard it moving any faster than that.
Uh, no, you're trying to calc it off them being MFTL+, yet trying to frame it as relativistic.
You've actively conceded rel is wrong on multiple fronts at this point, but are now backpedaling to use a lower speed based on assumptions, but that isn't how this works.
Scaling it off them at all, which I disagree with vehemently because they straight up blitz tf out of it, and go in to box in the time it takes it to explode, but doing so in the way you're attempting, would still make the KE FTL, and thus, unusuable.
And also, Viltrum's escape velocity was calced at
12.5 km/s, not 13.97, where are you getting that number from?
That was me being generous and using the updated size. Which, you don't want to use, not that I actually care that much you don't decide what is and isn't used, but again, that just worsens your argument.
What the hell are you talking about? I'm not a human calculator who knows values on the spot, I don't know what the GPE values of the mass would get off the top of my head. If it's only High 6-A or 5-C, okay, I'm mistaken. Calm the hell down.
Then don't argue it. At all.
You're arguing for calc, you're arguing math, and you didn't fact check these values beforehand? Don't waste my time, I shouldn't have to comment on you just guessing things.
Yes, thousands of kilometers more, not thousands of times kilometers more. There is a major difference between additional difference and multiplicative difference.
Thousands of kilometers more, is already many times more.
Upon which they get dogpiled, fight, all in the time it actually takes it to reach them.
And that's under the assumption, that trail is where they were to begin with, which we don't know, would argue otherwise actually given Mark is full-on mid scream still when we see him in the following panel many times away FROM the point you're saying he was at to scale off them.
Once again, the distance they moved from outside the Planet's core is around 8019 km, whereas the distance the mass moved in the same timeframe is around 2495 km. That's a 3.21x difference. Not exactly "eclipsing the shit out of the ejected mass", huh?
As above. Your very frame of reference of where they are, already, is built upon an assumption.
They're thousands of kilometers FROM the "ejected mass", and even the very trail you're assuming is them, immediately after the feat, and then grapple, box yadda yadda.
Couple that with, ironically, your own argument saying they could have SPED UP after leaving the planet, and any way to scale it off them is bunk. The mass being lifted with them while moving exponentially below top speed, only for them to speed back up means you can't scale it, any motion it made could have be done when it they were slowed down, and thus it being ejected a bit already after they sped up, can't be compared to the sped up speed. Or maybe they didn't slow down who tf knows, we don't, so how about we stop guessing and trying to argue headcanon to inflate feats.
Uh, yeah, and what do you think happened to Viltrum? I'd say that's a bit more than just "general damage".
Funny pew pew gun invalidates any argument you have on this front.
Not that it would matter, either they're moving MFTL+, or unquantifiably past ablation speeds, there's no inbetween.
Rel speeds damaging a planet, doesn't mean all damage to a planet is done at said speed, we know for a fact that isn't always the case. Blatant association fallacy.
The statement is indeed talking about them moving at Relativistic speeds and how that would cause general damage and ruin the atmosphere of a Planet, it's quite obvious Nolan, Mark, and Thaedus did a bit more than that when they upheaved that mass. Or do you think it wasn't even generally damaged for some reason?
Funny pew pew gun that destabilizes shit and causes things to explode go what.
Also funnily enough the atmosphere is still intact after they ram the planet. We can tell because we get multiple on-ground sky shots as it explodes and the atmosphere is there still.
But, again, getting real tired of this, the blatantly wrong statement that's contradicted like 80 times can't be applied to any feat you feel like it. Going rel damaging a planet, doesn't mean every time one is damaged it happened at said speed.
Worst part is, it wouldn't matter, you argued yourself they could have slowed down going through it, ie, them lifting up the mass would also be slowed down.
To add onto that, top speed is MFTL, not rel, so ya know.
I mean, no, it really isn't? That very same statement literally says that Allen can achieve speeds of up to Mach 10 only while in the atmosphere of a Planet.
And yet he's achieved much higher, hell Mark has achieved much higher, via direct statements, in atmosphere.
He can only achieve Relativistic speeds while in the vacuum of space. This is not contradicted, This contradicts movement speed feats on Earth in Invincible above a Hypersonic to Massively Hypersonic range, which is indeed consistent.
Ok go downgrade them, go downgrade the characters with dozens and dozens of feats beyond that, from basic calcs to hard direct statements that outweigh an outdated guidebook written early on says some stupid shit.
Until you do though, stop wasting my time.
Every single MFTL+ feat in the entire verse comes exclusively from space travel, not a single one comes from in-Earth combat or movement.
This isn't even true funnily enough, Thragg has a decent one. Not MFTL but sure as hell up there beyond what you're trying to argue.
In order to damage the Planet to the degree they did, they have to have been moving at speeds far exceeding any movement speed on the surface of a Planet in Invincible.
Or, ya know, the statement is wrong, contradicted, and they can move however fast they want?
The only other feat in the verse that's in the Relativistic ranges is Mark tossing a baseball around the world, which one, happens in the show and not the comic,
Please actually read the comic before yapping, unless Nolan doing it somehow doesn't count?
Also that isn't even true, there's a shit ton of mhs, sub-rel, rel, even lower FTL feats in atmosphere.
and two, is only Sub-Relativistic, and therefore not under the range of "near light speeds" which we consider the statement being, which is Relativistic+ on Allen's profile.
And yet, you're arguing anything beyond mach 10.
Don't be obtuse, if it's wrong, it's wrong.
Yeah, moving so fast he couldn't keep up, while they're taking several seconds to go through a Planet's diameter at speeds millions of times faster than light.
We're going back and forth it would seem.
Either they slowed down on impact, this would make scaling the ejected debris or exit to rel impossible.
They didn't slow down, it's MFTL KE because they're stated to be MFTL, not rel at that point.
No "seconds" timeframe was ever given, you're making it up.
This doesn't change the fact the approach was top speed though so at the very least that is MFTL.
Yes, they eclipse it by a whopping 3 times as I stated above. You're acting like they literally moved light-years while the mass moved a couple of inches in comparison, that's not the case.
They moved literally thousands of times the distance, and then spent time being grappled, restrained, and more.
You stating something has happened, and it actually having happened are not the same thing, you need to prove their exact relation in 3D space to do that, yet the following panels contradicts your notion.
They moved thousands of kilometers out of the Planet, and the mass moved a slightly less amount of thousands of kilometers out of the Planet. That's the premise.
It's a premise based on multiple assumptions, ie, a faulty premise.
Assuming they were going at MFTL+ speeds here technically violates calc-stacking rules as again, we judge feats and the speed characters are moving on a case-by-case basis.
This only works if they don't have actual stated MFTL speeds while being stated to have gone at top speed. That isn't calc stacking, it's the same exact shit you;'re trying to pull here with the rel statement, except unlike that, this directly applies because a few issues later they note that Mark went top speed.
I don't see why you wouldn't calc the speed Mark Nolan and Thaedus were travelling at, which you can absolutely compare to the mass for reasons I've said above.
Then CALC THE SPEED they're moving at instead of using a dogshit statement that doesn't even apply?
But, you can't calc it without a timeframe, and making up a timeframe to push an agenda isn't going to cut it, so either wait for the damn show, or there is no second option. Wait.
Cool, I already said go ahead and do that if you want. And they're definitely still 5-C due to Thragg's "tearing the Earth in half" statement is accepted there.
Dude, take a hint..
In fact you just conceded in that very post they can damage planets without moving, given Thragg's whole ass statement there is damaging a planet from a standstill.
Only really contradicted if you assume literally every single instance of characters moving fast in Invincible is MFTL+ speeds even when that clearly isn't the case, or if you ignore the fact that every single MFTL+ feat occurs while they're in the vacuum of space where it's specifically explained in that same guidebook that it's only possible while they're in space.
If a MFTL+ character gets omegablitzed and is stated moving at top speed (multiple times), yeah we would actually assume that.
The fact they even have some FTL shit on surface just damns it even more.
They cannot achieve faster than MHS movement on the surface of Planets, and nothing contradicts that as no feat in the verse on the surface of a Planet is above that range.
Dude. Literally DOZENS of feats past that, from Mark outspeeding explosions, chasing down MHS+ ICBM's, Tech Jacket tackling dudes from space to earth in seconds, straight up just statuting gunfire, literally "travel this big distance in a second" statements on screen, why are you arguing this? You're wrong. Anyone who picks up the comic for 5 minutes would know you're wrong.
You already admitted to "not being a human calculator", well, if you aren't 100% damn sure how fast the feats are, DON'T argue this shit.
Outdated, we've had multiple CRT's to rectify that. But sure, call me a liar again, I'll be taking that to RVR.
And second off, Allen was moving in the vacuum of space as he dodged a Viltrumite Warship, I.E as he was travelling an interstellar distance, I.E MFTL+. If you wanna argue he was flying as fast as a human while trying to reach a Planet millions of light-years away, be my guest.
Hey remember when characters like Thragg reacted to and gutted Nolan moving at top speed from a standstill?
Hey remember Mark reacting to MFTL Allen from a standstill?
Hey remember a BUNCH of shit like that? I do.
But, sure go downgrade the whole verse, until then, you don't have an argument.
Again, no, it's not even remotely contradicted unless your brainrotted by powerscaling and assume that the writers of a story are thinking about how fast their characters must have been moving at another instance and applying that to literally every single other feat in the verse.
And yet, is that not literally what you're doing here? Arguing they MUST be moving at THIS speed?
Don't be a hypocrite.
Not that it's comparable given I'm going off what's actually in the comic, you aren't.
And even then, no feat on Earth in Invincible surpasses MHS+,
You really should have checked before yapping. I don't even need to post anymore, this is enough.
In the prior issue btw Mark flies to snowy mountains from his school in less than 39 seconds. There's shit in the first few issues ffs.
all of the MFTL+ feats occur in space. And what? The theoretical "second handbook" your describing would only apply to new characters and new stories in the verse, why the hell would it apply to the physics stuff which was explained in the first handbook?
Because it's old, outdated, contradicted, etc?
And there is no hypothetical here, I'm not the dude arguing it, we have actual rules against handbooks being used if contradicted.
Again, why the hell would how characters are canonically explained to operate and how the physics in the verse canonically operate and the way they're canonically explained change over a couple of years? The laws of physics don't work like that I'm afraid.
The laws of physics aren't the same as comic book handbook yap. Shit changes, if they say one thing, and the comic shows or says something else, guess what takes precedence? NOT the handbook with dubious canonicity and overview.
You're acting like this is real physics, it isn't, it's just shit they yapped early on they eventually stopped adhering to, if they ever did at all.
Hilarious strawman. My proposal was slightly increasing their AP based on acceleration in space, not by a degree of millions of times. That also could apply to their durability anyway. Also it wasn't even fully serious.
That's exactly what it would entail. No it wouldn't apply to their durability, you keep wanting to use the handbook, why are you ignoring smart atom yap about durability?
I don't care if it was serious or not, don't waste my time if that's the case with bad arguments.
What the actual **** are you talking about? Thragg and 37 Viltrumites flying at Relativistic speeds to tear the Earth apart would not change the LS, because they would still be accomplishing a Class Z feat collectively, as the Planet splitting calc does not require any quantifiable speed since it uses the gravitational attraction formula.
It literally would? It'd be striking strength, not lifting strength if they were "flying at the planet at relativistic speeds" to do it.
They could be moving at Below Average Human speeds for all I care, they would still be accomplishing a Planet splitting feat regardless of their speed.
Case and point, you concede damaging a planet and moving at rel speeds isn't mutual.
How the hell does the speed someone is flying at matter when the damage itself is what we're estimating. And yes, them flying at Relativistic speeds would indeed damage the Earth enough to be considered Planet splitting, it doesn't change the fact it's still Low 5-B/Class Z collectively regardless though, I'm afraid.
Again, it wouldn't be considered LS if they did it that way. I feel that should be self-evident no?
How many times do Viltrumites or even other characters in the verse do exactly that yet only cause City level destruction at best?
Oh god we're really arguing "they don't blow up a planet every time they do something so-".
Ok then downgrade them to city level or some shit?
Because Conquest punching Mark so hard he bleeds yet only causing a bit of collateral means it's a 7-B punch?
Oh RIGHT, that's another feat well beyond mach 10, Conquest and Mark's fight went all over the world at speeds so high Cecil couldn't even track them properly or send in help.
Also again, I'm not arguing for any sort of LS downgrade and certainly not by whatever ****** up logic your talking about that I never even remotely implied.
It doesn't matter if you think you implied it or not, all your arguments self-sabotage, which is kinda ****** up but that ain't my problem.
With a 10 second timeframe, it's almost half Sub-Relativistic, and again, I'm not opposed to calculating how fast they were moving at that specific instant to compare to the mass. It's still a decent upgrade if the mass is moving at MHS speeds.
You don't get to guess a timeframe. Wait for the show.
I'll admit this is a severe error on my part, but the wording of "Relativistic" that I'm talking about is moreso a broad range between Sub-Relativistic and Relativistic+. I argued for Relativistic+ primarily because that's where the "near light speed" statement in the handbook is accepted at on Allen's profile. But again, I would not be opposed to MHS or Sub-Rela movement speed being the case.
I do not care at this point, you're just throwing things at a wall and praying one of them sticks, that tells me this isn't an upgrade done because it's accurate, or shit needs fixing, but because of the sole intent to upgrade.
Ignoring we've had CRT's on Allen, his profile just hasn't been updated, if the upgrade hinges solely on guesswork, which it does, all because everything else you've said is unfounded, while actively making self-sabotaging arguments, while said arguments STILL apply to your "new proposal", that shit still isn't sufficient. You need proof, not headcanon.
Yeah,
this totally obviously only took about 0.425 nanoseconds to happen, since they were moving at over 100,000,000 times FTL. What part of "context clues" do you not understand? It's not a headcanon to state that it only taking literally less than half a nanosecond for this very obviously not that short instance to happen, and again, the fact this scene will be animated makes that assumption 100x more ridiculous. Basic logic and common sense from what we can see is, in fact, not headcanon, do not frame it as such.
Based on what? The MFTL+ characters can move however fast they want.
That could have taken 0.425 nanoseconds, who knows, you sure don't, so why pretend you do?
What makes 10 seconds more likely? The fact a MFTL+ character had a thought to tell them to go QUICKER?
Or the fact Mark, with all his MFTL slop, is stated top speed, so much so he's even shown struggling there?
And even then, it still wouldn't be rel if you wanted to argue it seconds. So you're back at square one.
It is headcanon, all you've said is headcanon, not a single thing you've said this thread is fact, it's either headcanon or straight up wrong.
Are you arguing that if any scene is animated and we can see it, it can't be FTL or something? Not that I care, but that isn't how shit works. And when it's animated, we can actually use the animated scene instead off al this baseless conjecture.
"Backpedaling"? What? Do you even know what that word means? I'm telling you that the fact them taking a quantifiable timeframe which objectively lasts far more than a fraction of a nanosecond contradicts the fact that they were moving at MFTL+ speeds at that very moment. That's not backpedaling, that's what I've been arguing this whole time.
Half your arguments have been backpedaling, but "objectively", ok where's the statement that says the MFTL+ goons moving top speed, with no way to measure or quantify their speed, is taking like 10 seconds to reach the planet.
Oh and funnily enough, you keep mentioning the show, but his gun has a FTL feat in there, hits a sun from millions of km away in a few seconds.
Um, I don't know, maybe thousands of kilometers way, considering the fact that they have MFTL+ movement speed and can very easily do that, which is what they did by your own admission? This explosion was quintillions of times slower than them according to you, why did they not simply fly away once they noticed it? In fact, why would they not notice something quintillions of times slower than them which would literally be completely frozen to their perspective?
Why would they? They're fighting to the death? Why would they all flee a blast that ends up not even hurting them really? They all tank it just fine. Do you not think maybe they're preoccupied beating the shit out of the dudes who just finished blowing said planet up? You'd think that'd be more important to them then dropping everything, flying like a million km, waiting it out, and then flying back just to continue.
Why are we acting like they didn't notice it? How tf would they NOT have noticed it? They literally relocate multiple times as it's exploding, there's no way they didn't see it, given they also just WATCHED the 3 dudes they're now trying to murder plow through it, exit, and begin fighting.
The planet was literally not vaporized.
The scan you showed here is the mass they ejected, which does indeed move alonsgide them, which we literally see in the panel before move a visible distance away from the Planet, the distance I just told you was over 2495 km in comparison to the 8019 km the Viltrumites moved when they escaped from the Planet. Genuinely, what is so hard to grasp about that?
The fact I'm not making assumptions, you are, and framing these assumptions as fact. We don't do that here.
Arguing semantics, completely irrelevant.
How in the bloody hell is saying the velocity which directly effects the calc being calculated properly being vastly slower than what you have it at, semantics? That's pretty important.
At this point I don't, half your arguments contradict each other, aren't based in fact, contradict the actual comic, etc.
And again, no, if it were only escape velocity in comparison to them, even if they WERE only moving at Relativistic speeds, MUCH LESS MFTL+, it would take several minutes for the mass to
move this much in comparison to their flight path.
And? Who said it'd take minutes? But nobody is saying it took a fraction of a second either, we don't just guess. You already admitted rel is bunk based on your arguments, I have nothing more to say to that.
Now if they WERE moving at over 100,000,000 times faster than light, now how long do you think they would have to be
floating frozen in this position for the mass to move that distance?
A few nanoseconds. Which, given, they immediately start fighting each other again, why are you framing that as having taken forever?
From their PoV it could have been awhile, but given they were grappled, restrained, etc, who gives a shit?
It would still take the mass
3.326 minutes to move the 2495 km it did in that instance. How much distance would Mark, Nolan, and Thaedus cover in that timeframe at the speed they were apparently moving according to you?
Hey see, so you know all those times I said your arguments are arguing MFTL KE, not rel?
Yeah this. That by arguing the ejected mass is comparable to them even slightly, it'd make it MFTL?
****** up thing is it isn't, you yourself even argued they couldve slowed down while flying through the planet, aka, them lifting up that mass would be using the unquantifiable slow speed, thus making any speed they're at after exiting impossible to compare the KE to, making your calc bunk. The alternative is they didn't slow down, MFTL KE despite the obvious speed gap and impossible to know relative locations, and KE is useless and can't be used now.
26
million kilometers away. They would have crossed 26 stars stacked on top of each other in the time it would have taken for the mass to move that much.
Is the 662 px here equivalent to that much distance? I'm not "headcanoning" anything, it's called common sense and context clues.
Context clues? The context is literally they approach it at maximum speed (they have stated MFTL travel shit), you're ignoring that and making excuses.
Common sense? Is just throwing out words that aren't said and mentioned anywhere.
All based on multiple assumptions we know aren't even true to begin with.
For a whole three minutes straight as they watched mass move slowly towards them in that timeframe without even slightly trying to move away from it to get knocked back? Tell me, even if you had Wall level durability and knew this, along with Subsonic+ reactionary time, would you purposely let a car which is moving at slow motion to you from your perspective hit you while your fighting someone?
Uh yeah if I was beating the dogpiss out of them in a fit of rage. Why would the car hurt me? Why would I travel across the city, letting up on my beatdown of them, enabling them to recoup, escape themselves, or anything else for that matter, instead of just beating them, shrug the car off, and go right back to beating them.
Which would only be true if you genuinely believe the things I told you above which would have to be happening if they were truly moving that fast. Tell me in any sense of the word what sense this makes both in universe and just by common sense.
Oooooooooor, maybe, you could stop strawmanning, being obtuse, and actually tackle the arguments at hand instead of arguing something nobody ever said.
Blitzed the explosion by three times, yes. Obviously that means you can't compare the mass ejected because...reasons? Everything else you just said is a nothing burger and doesn't even remotely suggest a timeframe as long as you think is happening.
You people wonder why.
Let me be perfectly blunt with you.
Your timeframes? Made up, don't exist, not real. We can't use them, we WON'T use them. Give us a damn statement or drop it.
Rel speed? Prove it applies here.
Heat core shit? Sucks but we got them accepted heat res, go downgrade that first or drop it.
You want to use a statement? Why is an early, contradicted, handbook statement, bing used over actual in comic feats and statements?
You want to scale it off them? It'd be MFTL KE because we know for a fact Mark was top speed, who has and scales to MFTl shit.
You want to scale the ejected debris off them? Yet you actively acknowledged they could have slowed down while plowing through a quadrillion tons of rock, so why, how even, can we scale it to them, when the speed they're at is unquantifiable?
If the above is true and they even sped up after exiting, that's even worse because the instant they get out of the mass of debris, their ass could have sped up drastically, thus making the perceived ratio on the panel you're trying to calc, skewed heavily.
To go even further, we don't even KNOW where they are in relation to the ejected debris, you claim at the end of the trail of molten core, but we see in the next panel they're way past that.
Etc.
Shit sucks.
I'm not trying to prove anything, it's you who needs to prove shit. and you haven't. You're making assumptions.
Do I need to explain decceleration to you? If we took that at face value, everything decelerated by magnitudes instantly.
Starts exploding and moves thousands of kilometers, whereas Mark, Nolan, and Thaedus move a few thousand kilometers more. Yes, that is a
difference of many thousand kilometers, but not that many
times of Kilometers. They moved
5524 kilometers more than the mass did, while also only moving
3.21x more in comparison. It's genuinely not that hard to understand, you are completely misrepresenting the bigger picture.
I'm actually thinking things through lad, not arguing off a preconceived notion and trying to frame it as fact.
Trying to restrain them while also letting themselves get hit as well? Dude, again, if you had Wall level durability, would you willingly let yourself get hit by a speeding car or a train just to let the dangerous criminal guy your fighting also get hit?
Uh, yeah actually I would. Especially if I could tank it. Would be a hell of a lot better than letting them escape or get away.
And ya know what the ****** up part is? They still could've done exactly that WITH your presumptuous calc, they're still way tf faster than it.
And also no, I've been arguing even before this reply that they cannot be moving at MFTL+ speeds for obvious reasons, so your inventing imaginary arguments and also gaslighting me into thinking I'm arguing something I'm not.
I don't care. You are. Your whole premise also applies to MFTL, except even more so.
Your arguments aren't good enough, making up a 10 second timeframe to say it can't be MFTL+, isn't good enough when actual statements in the comic implicate otherwise.
You don't need to argue it directly if your arguments do so by default.
Their previous MFTL+ feats do not say anything about how fast they are always moving.
Except, again, they explicitly say Mark was moving a top speed there.
Dude, again, do you realize that we calculate speed feats on a case-by-case basis?
You're talking to a former CGM. You're also talking to someone who's been around here a hell of a lot longer than you. You're also talking to someone who's actually read the comic to know they say they were moving top speed on the approach thus this whole "uhm actually they werent" argument isn't gonna fly.
As in, we do not use the highest end speed feat that we scale characters to and use that speed value for kinetic energy calculations where, say, a character punches someone in slow-motion?
Unless they have FTL statements and are noted to be top speed there
No. We calculate how fast they were moving in that specific instance. You cannot use a previous FTL calc for a character moving in slow-motion in another instance for a completely separate calculation, you have to calculate how fast they were moving in that specific instance.
Unless they have FTL statements and are noted to be top speed there
And in the case of the Viltrum feat, them moving at MFTL+ speeds falls apart with literally the tiniest bit of scrutiny applied to it.
Unless they have FTL statements and are noted to be top speed there
And your scrutiny is literally "the MFTL+ dude thinks telepathically to move faster".
Goddamn wish you'd apply some of that scrutiny to your own arguments.
The gaslighting is off the charts. It doesn't matter what my argument actually means, if it wasn't what I was intending to argue, than I wasn't arguing it, period.
Don't care. If you argue that blue light is better at being scattered through the ozone and atmosphere, but then go "but damn I wasnt arguing the sky was blue", it doesn't matter, your arguments directly entail this other thing.
That's what this is, your arguments involve shit you very clearly didn't intend, but whether you intended it or not doesn't change the fact that's what they entail.
You do not speak for what my mind tells me nor what I say, you do not know me better than I know myself. What you're doing is GASLIGHTING. And also "big numbers"? Dude, if I wanted to do that,
I'd just do something like this and get the feat to Large Star level.
Unfortunately, I'm doing exactly that. Your arguments have unintended side effects, whether or not you intended them to be a thing, doesn;t change the fact they are and thus must be rectified.
And inflation is inflation regardless of how big.
Yes, they eclipse the velocity of the mass by merely three times, which I have undeniably proven here several times which is objectively not "headcanon".
"Undeniably", that's pretty odd given you've given an argument yourself for why it can be denied.
It's through actual measurements this wiki uses for calcs which are accepted, and by employing common sense.
I'm going to refrain from commenting on your common sense and just say the scaling the wiki uses, isn't using it for what you're trying to frame it as.
You've said this like five different times already and I already said if that's the case, so be it. They're still 5-C based off the 37 Viltrumites splitting the Earth.
And I'm going to say it 100 more times it would seem.
And no, wtf sort of argument is this, how about we stop assuming shit, framing headcanon as fact, and either don't just guess or wait for the damn show.
Again, extreme gaslighting.
Then I guess I'm Oberon FGO or some shit, I don't care.
It doesn't matter what my argument "actually" means, you can just tell me that without trying to claim that that's what my intention actually is. Your the only one who is lowkey trying to argue a downgrade.
This is what I mean, you don't even realize what your arguments even actually mean. I'm not arguing a downgrade, your own arguments are, end of. You might not have intended that to be the case, but what you intended and what they actually say, are not always the same thing.
You literally said that the show could likely give a Relativistic timeframe, which you know for a fact that that almost certainly will not happen according to your line of thinking and only said so as an attempt to try and once again gaslight me.
Dude, calling out the blatant holes in your argument isn't gaslighting. In fact even saying it's gaslighting is insulting to people who are actually gaslit. Grow up a bit.
And I don't care what the show does, it could be 1 second or ten years. If the show is rel, it's rel, if it isn't, then it isn't, so? No matter it is, you're probably gonna end up using it, so instead of wasting everyone's time arguing timeframes that don't exist, just wait.
Also it would only apply to the show anyway, so why does it matter?
If the feat is 1:1 we'd use the timeframe, wiki allows stuff like that.
Um, perfectly spherical Moons are what I was referring to, and they do indeed have to
at minimum be 600 km.
The moons your referring to are not even slightly perfect spheres, nor do they even remotely resemble Viltrum's moons. This is a laughable strawman. That argument was for a
high-end of the feat anyway, which was not even what I was mostly arguing for.
You mean the small moons they don't get focused on at all and are drawn with a lack of detail?
Well I did undeniably prove it, multiple times in this response alone via common sense and context clues that a 1st grader could understand, yet you cannot comprehend this and will continue to deny it simply because "Well um....comic books are still!".
I'm very tempted to report you.
It is
you who is denying blatant context to try and argue that the feat taking several seconds is "headcanon" while simultaneously trying to argue that
this scene actually took a fraction of a nanosecond which is infinitely more of a headcanon not even slightly narratively or contextually supported than anything I said.
It's one or the other. You want to argue an established speed? It'd be MFTL.
Seconds itself is an assumption.
I gave you solid proof via arguments that again, a toddler could understand with the way I explained it but you just putting your fingers in your ears and saying "Nanny nanny booboo! No argument will ever matter! It's a still comic book!" knowing for a fact nothing will ever convince you.
Assumptions is not solid proof. Headcanon is not solid proof. Ignoring every single caveat tio your argument, is not proof. Straight up insulting others, is not proof.
The only reason you haven't convinced me is because it's wrong, end of. I do not want your opinion, I do not want your guesswork, I do not want your excuses, assumptions or whatever else. I want hard stated objective fact, and you've failed to supply that at every turn.
So I disagree, and will likely make my own CRT to get a discussion rule put in place to wait for the damn show to give a timeframe.
