Downgrade Speed Killer Peter

[BlackCat]

I asked a question in Dark’s message wall, and both Viott, Rynizenz responded. They agreed that KillerPeter’s speed should be downgraded due to a contextual misinterpretation.

The calculation was previously accepted as High Hypersonic, and I already upgraded it in this thread.

However, after re-reading Chapter 90, I noticed that Nathaniel’s subordinate, who was attacked by Levin, was still able to move his legs and feet during the attack. The Slow Motion Speed formula is usually used to calculate speeds where the character is thousands of times faster than the opponent. The fact that Nathaniel’s subordinate could still move during the attack shows that Levin wasn’t actually thousands of times faster just a few times faster. Another assumption is that Nathaniel’s subordinate could still perceive and respond to Levin’s speed to some degree he realized he was being attacked but couldn’t react in time because Levin was simply faster.

Therefore, I believe we should downgrade KillerPeter’s speed from High Hypersonic+ to just Subsonic+

Agree: @Rynizenz, @Viott, @Second22, @Mr. Bambu(Calculation Group), @Pxnd_013

Disagree: @Lethalr

 

[Rynizenz]

This verse is never gonna escape subsonic hell. I agree with this

 

[Viott]

I agree

 

[BlackCat]

This verse is never gonna escape subsonic hell. I agree with this

We can scale them back to Supersonic based on their bullet-dodging feats, as I’ve previously made a thread asking about this.

 

[BlackCat]

I agree

Thank you for your help

 

[Lethalr]

Disagree

I don't quite believe that saying Nathanael's subordinate was able to move during the attack is accurate, as the nature of manhwas (really non-animated forms of media in general) allows the possibility of his "reaction" being after the attacks. As for the matter of whether or not Levin could be perceived, even a subordinate who specialized in speed stated he couldn't perceive Levin's moves, so I think it's safe to assume that he couldn't be perceived by the subordinate in the calc

 

[Rynizenz]

Disagree

I don't quite believe that saying Nathanael's subordinate was able to move during the attack is accurate, as the nature of manhwas (really non-animated forms of media in general) allows the possibility of his "reaction" being after the attacks. As for the matter of whether or not Levin could be perceived, even a subordinate who specialized in speed stated he couldn't perceive Levin's moves, so I think it's safe to assume that he couldn't be perceived by the subordinate in the calc

I do agree that the subordinate didn’t move(like his main body parts) though it’s literally hard imo to argue that the reaction came after if it’s in the same panel.

 

[BlackCat]

I do agree that the subordinate didn’t move(like his main body parts) though it’s literally hard imo to argue that the reaction came after if it’s in the same panel.

So, in the end, do you agree with the downgrade or not?

 

[BlackCat]

Disagree

I don't quite believe that saying Nathanael's subordinate was able to move during the attack is accurate, as the nature of manhwas (really non-animated forms of media in general) allows the possibility of his "reaction" being after the attacks. As for the matter of whether or not Levin could be perceived, even a subordinate who specialized in speed stated he couldn't perceive Levin's moves, so I think it's safe to assume that he couldn't be perceived by the subordinate in the calc

According to the calculation, Levin is about 1,000 times faster. However, Nathaniel’s subordinate was still able to move his leg as Levin charged to attack. If Levin were truly 1,000 times faster, then Nathaniel’s subordinate shouldn’t have been able to move his leg or defend against the attack at all (Because the Slow Motion formula has rules that work that way)

 

[Viott]

Disagree

I don't quite believe that saying Nathanael's subordinate was able to move during the attack is accurate, as the nature of manhwas (really non-animated forms of media in general) allows the possibility of his "reaction" being after the attacks. As for the matter of whether or not Levin could be perceived, even a subordinate who specialized in speed stated he couldn't perceive Levin's moves, so I think it's safe to assume that he couldn't be perceived by the subordinate in the calc

After Levin started moving, the man left in the air still couldn't react, but showing '!!' means the other man did react.

 

[Viott]

According to the calculation, Levin is about 1,000 times faster. However, Nathaniel’s subordinate was still able to move his leg as Levin charged to attack. If Levin were truly 1,000 times faster, then Nathaniel’s subordinate shouldn’t have been able to move his leg or defend against the attack at all (Because the Slow Motion formula has rules that work that way)

Actually, it's 2800 times faster.

 

[BlackCat]

Actually, it's 2800 times faster.

Yes, that's right, but I was just giving a simple explanation based on the description of the Slow Motion formula

 

[Viott]

Yes, that's right, but I was just giving a simple explanation based on the description of the Slow Motion formula

I know.

 

[Viott]

Shouldn't this be in the CRT?

 

[BlackCat]

Shouldn't this be in the CRT?

far as I remember, when it comes to discussions involving calculations—whether for upgrades or downgrades—it should be under ‘Calc Group Discussion’ instead. (I’ll try asking the admin to confirm which section we should use. If it turns out we need to post it under CRT, I’ll create a new post for it tomorrow.)

 

[Lethalr]

According to the calculation, Levin is about 1,000 times faster. However, Nathaniel’s subordinate was still able to move his leg as Levin charged to attack. If Levin were truly 1,000 times faster, then Nathaniel’s subordinate shouldn’t have been able to move his leg or defend against the attack at all (Because the Slow Motion formula has rules that work that way)

He didn't move at all during Levin's charging of the attack. The only movement is in the panel following it, and like I said before that could've just been a result of getting hit multiple times

 

[Lethalr]

After Levin started moving, the man left in the air still couldn't react, but showing '!!' means the other man did react.

The "!!" used doesn't necessarily have to mean a reaction from a character. Even if it was, he wouldn't have been reacting to his speed, but instead the fact that in an instant Levin was in one spot then in another, meaning he didn't perceive the movement at all. In short, he simply wasn't reacting to the speed that was calculated

 

[Antvasima]

far as I remember, when it comes to discussions involving calculations—whether for upgrades or downgrades—it should be under ‘Calc Group Discussion’ instead. (I’ll try asking the admin to confirm which section we should use. If it turns out we need to post it under CRT, I’ll create a new post for it tomorrow.)

Good question, given the ambiguity in this particular case.

@Agnaa @Mr. Bambu @Damage3245

What do you think?

 

[Agnaa]

I believe it should go to the calc subforum.

 

[Viott]

The "!!" used doesn't necessarily have to mean a reaction from a character. Even if it was, he wouldn't have been reacting to his speed, but instead the fact that in an instant Levin was in one spot then in another, meaning he didn't perceive the movement at all. In short, he simply wasn't reacting to the speed that was calculated

After Levin moves, Hyeun remains motionless and unable to respond, but the "!!" symbol appears next to Damwol, indicating that he is surprised. This means he is reacting. Although Hyeun is faster than Damwol, the fact that Hyeun cannot react while Damwol does is very inconsistent, so the calculation is invalid.

 

[Antvasima]

I believe it should go to the calc subforum.

Thank you for your evaluation.

Should I ping some more calc group members then?

 

[Agnaa]

Yes

 

[Lethalr]

After Levin moves, Hyeun remains motionless and unable to respond, but the "!!" symbol appears next to Damwol, indicating that he is surprised. This means he is reacting. Although Hyeun is faster than Damwol, the fact that Hyeun cannot react while Damwol does is very inconsistent, so the calculation is invalid.

I don't think you get what I'm saying. Even if the vsfx was meant to indicate a reaction, it's simply not a reaction to what was calculated. What was calculated was Levin's movement, what the reaction was was to Levin suddenly ending up in front of him.

 

[BlackCat]

I don't think you get what I'm saying. Even if the vsfx was meant to indicate a reaction, it's simply not a reaction to what was calculated. What was calculated was Levin's movement, what the reaction was was to Levin suddenly ending up in front of him.

The reason I downgraded them is because of the leg movement. If you look closely, while Levin was rushing in, Nathaniel’s subordinate lifted his left leg and was standing on his right. But in the next frame, he’s standing on his left leg and raising his right one. This indicates that he was trying to turn around and counterattack Levin, but Levin was simply faster, so he couldn’t react in time. Therefore, I believe this is more of a speed blitz scenario rather than slow motion speed

 

[Rynizenz]

The reason I downgraded them is because of the leg movement. If you look closely, while Levin was rushing in, Nathaniel’s subordinate lifted his left leg and was standing on his right. But in the next frame, he’s standing on his left leg and raising his right one. This indicates that he was trying to turn around and counterattack Levin, but Levin was simply faster, so he couldn’t react in time. Therefore, I believe this is more of a speed blitz scenario rather than slow motion speed

Ok i can’t agree with that. That whole thing with the subordinate quite literally happens because he got hit. It doesn’t indicate that he was trying ti counter attack levin or not. The blitz timeframe happened when he ran and appeared beside the subordinate before he attacked.

Even so i still agree that it’s not slow motion but not for that reason

 

[BlackCat]

Ok i can’t agree with that. That whole thing with the subordinate quite literally happens because he got hit. It doesn’t indicate that he was trying ti counter attack levin or not. The blitz timeframe happened when he ran and appeared beside the subordinate before he attacked.

Even so i still agree that it’s not slow motion but not for that reason

And what about you? What do you think the reason is? Could you explain it to me? Or is it the same reason as Viott?

 

[Rynizenz]

Pretty much the same reason that viott has. It’s pretty clear the tan guy is showing a reaction to levin. it probably only happened due to the other guy not even being infront of him cause if the other subordinate could atleast catch levin moving(even though he won’t be able to defend himself) it would also make same for the pale subordinate to do the same. This is why i think using superhuman reactions could work

 

[Second22]

Ok i can’t agree with that. That whole thing with the subordinate quite literally happens because he got hit. It doesn’t indicate that he was trying ti counter attack levin or not. The blitz timeframe happened when he ran and appeared beside the subordinate before he attacked.

Even so i still agree that it’s not slow motion but not for that reason

It’s somewhat related and can be used as a reason. He was attacked five times, during which his leg buckled. The shifting of his position wasn’t caused by the momentum from being kicked. Clearly, just moving his leg like but that wouldn’t make him as fast as Levin. The buckling of his leg wasn’t due to being struck Levin didn’t hit his leg; he struck his torso. But that still doesn’t explain Nathaniel’s reaction to the attack, since he only moved his leg after taking several hits. Nathaniel is still much slower than Levin. Even if the movement made Levin 10 times faster, it’s still nowhere near 2800 times.

Exactly. He got blitzed by the first attack, but the next four hits probably made him start moving his leg and even then, that’s still not a speed difference of 2800 times.

 

[Second22]

I don’t think just the ‘!!!’ symbol is a good enough reason. Slow motion isn’t about seeing or being shocked by an attack, but rather about the movement of objects.

For example:

There’s a rock falling from the sky, and person A can move while the rock seems almost frozen or suspended in the air.

Or:

Person B is the one falling from the sky, and person A can move while person B still seems almost frozen or suspended in the air. But person B can still see the attack and feel surprised, even though he can’t move at all — because he’s still much slower.

I don’t think these two cases are any different. The rock or the reference object doesn’t need to have perception. Honestly, we still misunderstand what a ‘reaction’ is. A reaction means responding and being able to move, even slightly. Just being shocked with ‘!!!’ but not seeing any motion at all — that shouldn’t count as a reaction.

If it’s just being shocked by a very fast attack, I don’t agree with that. He still couldn’t move at all.

 

[Viott]

It’s somewhat related and can be used as a reason. He was attacked five times, during which his leg buckled. The shifting of his position wasn’t caused by the momentum from being kicked. Clearly, just moving his leg like but that wouldn’t make him as fast as Levin. The buckling of his leg wasn’t due to being struck Levin didn’t hit his leg; he struck his torso. But that still doesn’t explain Nathaniel’s reaction to the attack, since he only moved his leg after taking several hits. Nathaniel is still much slower than Levin. Even if the movement made Levin 10 times faster, it’s still nowhere near 2800 times.

Exactly. He got blitzed by the first attack, but the next four hits probably made him start moving his leg and even then, that’s still not a speed difference of 2800 times.

For 0.00275 m/s to be used, the leg must not move at all.

 

[Second22]

For 0.00275 m/s to be used, the leg must not move at all.

Of course, the calculation was correct in that scene his legs didn’t move. But in the next scene, his legs did move. I think this falls under the case of evading punches. The calculation might be correct, but the next scene shows me that the speed difference wasn’t as extreme as 2800 times.

 

[Viott]

Of course, the calculation was correct in that scene his legs didn’t move. But in the next scene, his legs did move. I think this falls under the case of evading punches. The calculation might be correct, but the next scene shows me that the speed difference wasn’t as extreme as 2800 times.

Since the difference in speed was very large, the character shouldn't have moved at all.

 

[Second22]

Since the difference in speed was very large, the character shouldn't have moved at all.

Sure, It should be like that for the calculation to be valid, but in that scene, his legs moved — so the calculation doesn’t apply.

 

[Viott]

Sure, It should be like that for the calculation to be valid, but in that scene, his legs moved — so the calculation doesn’t apply.

Yeah.

 

[Antvasima]

@Therefir @Ugarik @TheRustyOne @Migue79 @AbaddonTheDisappointment @Aguywhodoesthings @DemiiPowa @SeijiSetto @SunDaGamer

What do you think about this?

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

The !!! pops up again when the guy gets blitzed, and he shows no reaction or movement the second time.

 

[Viott]

The !!! pops up again when the guy gets blitzed, and he shows no reaction or movement the second time.

The calculation is invalid because the other man moved his foot.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Thank you for your evaluation.

Should I ping some more calc group members then?

I swear to you that I never consciously saw this thread.

Yeah, this is fine. Any significant movement on the behalf of the "slow-motion" individual nulls the argument of slow motion entirely. Downgrading this is fine.

 

[BlackCat]

Bump

 

[BlackCat]

Bump