Doesn't change my point here. He didn't mean it litterally here. All he does is trick the Ninjas
So he granted a resistance....
Yeah because Fenwick interfered with Morro destiny by helping him escape his banishement to the Curse Realm. The whole reason he was out in S5 was thanks to his intervention. Lego website says this
I don't see what this change. Fenwick should be able to make it so they can defy destiny for a resistance to be granted to begin with
Aware this had a lot of discussion, I'll read it in a bit and revise this thought process then, but I think all of the evidence here is insanely weak. Nothing suggests he predates time or reality, the Cloud Kingdom has pretty weak evidence of Fate Manipulation and nothing in the provided evidence actually suggests that if they can do that, the Overlord is immune (it's worded as though that's the natural conclusion but I don't see why it would be)
I don't really think this is Biological Manipulation? It affects a biological creature but just by making them crystal, which is either adding a layer of crystal over their flesh (in which case it is just Crystal Manipulation) or transforming their flesh into crystal (in which case it is Transmutation). Why does the first statement provide no evidence?
Evidence sucks for what the justification says but it does prove that he scales to the FSM, at least. The second image addition feels like just throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks.
It kinda seems like the point they're trying to make is that the Overlord's abilities just aren't elemental in nature, but assuming we take it as such: why would he have Power Null, if it is a property of the location, and why would Power Absorption be used here at all?
If only for the breath thing, sure.
Not sure how important this is but the repeated mantra is that the Overlord is the "source" of all evil, not that he is Evil itself. He is an Evil factory, not within every Evil thing, yeah? If this is just a pedantic change then fair enough.
This establishes that there is moral good and moral bad ("dark") magic, at least. The way it's phrased, it seems as though it aims to suggest many types of magic, rather than two (one of which is mentioned once and the difference between them seems to be classifying the end goal of the spells).
Sure.
Yep.
What am I meant to glean there? All that's said of importance here is "power attracts power".
This seems to just be a part of that eternal life thing? Why is this even here to begin with?
Video dead, womp womp
Yeah.
It should straight up be mentioned that their invisibility can be countered with thermal vision. Not many characters possess a "paranormal essence detector", but tons possess thermal vision, and that is the stated reason why he can see Cole there.
It is objectively funny that WoG was required to prove this point before, this is obviously fine lol
He doesn't seem to be using elemental powers there? Are Oni powers elemental in nature, and is one of them the element of Punching Hard?
First scan doesn't say anything about a personal realm.
Nothing suggests he "should be immune" to the Cloud Kingdom, I dunno if there's just missing context or whatever that suggests this but this is consistently presented as a logical conclusion but it's a non-sequitur. Type 1 isn't even presented with evidence.
To be clear I think this is dogshit evidence of Low 1-C but the scan itself does technically prove what it sets out to prove. But like. Being the source of all [non-physical thing] in a given cosmos doesn't fundamentally make you scale to that cosmos. Even if we agreed the cosmology is Low 1-C (I haven't looked at any evidence regarding that and, god willing, I never will), this isn't really evidence of their ability to significantly affect that cosmos as a whole.
Yeah.
Why the HELL is this 4-C
This evidence does not say that he is above Dragon Overlord. It doesn't even mention Lloyd.
I feel like this is a bit of a leap but I'll sign off on it.
Love that the old evidence of Class T is "stronger than normal humans".
alright
I don't really think this is Pain Manipulation, attacks just hurt.
I guess.
Yer
Yer^2
The Merge seems weird but I'll sign off on this, each scan does generally say what is implied.
Yer
I don't really get what this is meant to prove, as a scan. You explicitly can reach the Cursed Realm without being Cursed. Was this just straight up a lie before?
alright
Addressed in Overlord's part.
All the statement implies is that FSM died. His existence is unique so it is not surprising that he is not present in an afterlife he, himself, created directly. I think all of these scans suck as evidence for the thing they're claiming to be evidence for and I think that they just shouldn't be used, straight up.
Yeah.
I have no idea why the Nether-Space is not considered a realm when it is explicitly called a Realm right there, on the first scan, but the scans are fine aside, ig?
I'm pretty sure this is supposed to be resistance.
Gotcha. I dunno why we cut the word Resistance there, admittedly in the interest of time I didn't open some of the pages if it seemed like the full statement was here.
I was just copy and pasting stuff so some things got cut off, should’ve specified it is a resistance, my bad.
Yeah this should be removed, I forgor. Idk what Power Absorption forgot there.
Manipulating destiny is blatant Fate Manipulation. The scans implies they can do it
Because Overlord's Element is an Elemental Essence, which has the same propreties as Elements along with other resistances
Our point is that Fenwick grants him the ability to defy fate, which is still giving him a resistance
Destruction is an Elemental Essence bc its an kind of Elemental Power that can possess multiple hosts and is not affected by Vengestone
It isn't just because he's the concept of light, its because the Balance (aka Overlord and FSM) affects the Realms
Because they fly in and out the Sun casually and live inside it with 0 damage, not to count they are amped by the entire Star to begin with.
Its says its the strongest being in history, which puts him above his past forms as well. He also possess the powers of USM, same guy who no diffed Dragon Overlord, so he is narratively above DF Overlord
Its based on Cole being stated numerous time to be able to move/build mountains/have the strength of mountains, but DR feats its likely gonna change now. And for the Lloyd feat, Garmadon directly claims he can move mountains
Nowhere has it ever been implied that Class M was their limit in power, and Cole in DR held off a titanic Island from falling which is far beyond Class M
I explained already why Kalmaar scales far below Wojira so it can't be AP
You cannot reach the Cursed Realm normally without being Cursed or throught special means, and Lloyd was the only exception because he's special
Alright.
Yeah, but how do they do it? Why is one guy stopping doing it able to allow another guy to slip right through if the entire kingdom does it? How it is argued to be here, at least, does not satisfy every basic question I would expect it to, so acknowledging that I lack all information, it seems Off.
If there's a distinction between Elemental Essence, and the Vengestone doesn't affect it, surely this is a limitation of the latter rather than a resistance of the former?
But that's not what it says. First of all, the evidence for this literally only concretely establishes that the Cloud Kingdom somehow manipulates Fate, despite their inability to do much about it. The argument of Fenwick, per the evidence, just says he "left the back door open" (???). Whatever Fenwick is actively doing, it doesn't even matter, because it isn't an ability of this guy's either way.
I dunno if this is a typo, and if you meant to say what you did ("This is Elemental Essence because of these properties"), since that doesn't really make sense without elaboration, but I also can't figure out what you might have intended to say otherwise. Regardless, if Destruction is Elemental Essence, and Vengestone doesn't work on it, that still seems like a restriction on it rather than a resistance.
Then evidence of that should be provided in the pages. This strikes me as the case with a lot of these- they don't sound horrifically outlandish but they seem widely unsupported by video clips, to the point of a few of them straight up not being what the video clips depict. I wonder if the evidence provided just isn't here for whatever reason?
See prior post, this is just objectively bad powerscaling. Even the dead core of the sun wouldn't be anywhere near Tier 4, and being empowered by the sun doesn't mean anything either, least of all that you scale to the full destruction of it, that's crazy.
That scan isn't presented to be about the Overlord though lol. It's meant to prove scaling for Lloyd. Like. Nevermind the unreliable narrator, this statement is about the Overlord coming back as the Golden Master, the most powerful being ever created (according to aforementioned narrator), so why the hell would that prove Lloyd is more powerful than it? How does it prove Lloyd is above the Dragon Overlord? I'm not even arguing that these aren't the case, I'm just asking for evidence that even begins to prove it.
This would help! I suspect that this isn't LS outright, though, and instead just the application of Earth Manip. So, for example, he couldn't move an equal mass of water, yeah? I think it'd be better to have his LS, so like "Class M, likely Class T via Earth Manipulation" or something like that. Still, this evidence is better than what the video suggests, should be included in the profile.
That's actually a fairly small island, given that it is dominated by one (admittedly reasonably sized) building.
Do you always interact with your environment with the full force you can muster behind a fist, yes or no
That scan doesn't prove that. The entire, sole purpose of this thread, is to prove things. So prove it. I'm begging you to work with me here.
They do actually control destiny and fate, although I do think The Overlord having resistance to fate hax because he predates them is questionable and kinda baseless. (I don't think we give resistances because you predate someone that has the ability)
See that's the shit I'm looking for. Thank you, I don't mind Fate Manip then (although I still question whether we should award a resistance for apparent active interference, so I still disagree with the continued existence of Fate Manip Resistance)
Elemental Essences are special because they can have multiple users and resist Vengestone, not because Vengestone has restrictions. Lloyd has an Elemental Essence yet he doesn't resist Vengestone (Shown below)
No
Nope, the argument is that Morro was able to defy his destiny of staying Cursed because of Fenwick
Fenwick (He is the Wishmaster) litterally stated he can use his fate powers to shape reality
Addressed this on top
Balance stuff is explained in the Cosomology page
Being fuelled by 4-C energy and especially being stated to possess the strength of a Star grants you 4-C rating. That's the main use of the scan
Golden Master is the Overlord, and the scan is used to prove GM > DF Overlord. He possess the powers of USM Lloyd who slammed DF Overlord
UES + Cole's Element amp his physicals + Already on profile
Mech that's fuelled by his Element
The mechanism only purpose was to help the Cloud Kingdom float and move, which required a lot of manpower from Monks normally. So I think Cole holding it off is impressive. He also lifted a huge skeleton covered in rocks along with Frak while his Element was negatively but its from leaked DR S3 part 2 stuff so I don't want to post it here yet
Nadakhan lifting half of a continent and Wojira lifting a Moon
Kalmaar has no reason to hold back against anyone and in fact was killed by her with absolute ease
You kinda made a baseless claim to begin with? Anyways:
Nether-Space is one of the Outside Realms to be precise
This seems contradictory? Before you were saying Elemental Essence is special because Vengestone doesn't affect it but now you're saying there's someone with Elemental Essence that is affected by Vengestone. What gives?
Right, because Fenwick actively did something. Morro doesn't inherently have any ability to defy fate, it's some other person's active ability.
No it does not.
yes, this is what I said. It is a form of the Overlord. If the purpose of this bit is to demonstrate Lloyd > Dragon, then why not just show that, instead of this weird, unrelated scan?
UES wouldn't really matter here. Cole has the specific ability to manipulate stone. He's not lifting anything, he's manipulating stone.
Listen man. I'm not saying the feat "isn't impressive", I'm saying it isn't Class T. It's unquantifiable because it is impossible to determine how much the mechanism is doing. It probably is a lot (and I do mean a lot) lower than Class T, though, either way.
Are they calc'd and/or already approved?
Sure they do. They want to goad the dragon.
The purpose of this thread is to offer evidence to prove claims. I am judging whether the evidence as is justifies what is being attempted. My baseless claim is not a claim- it is a possible other alternative that seems more likely (read: Occam's Razor). You, your purpose here, is to provide evidence that stands up to scrutiny, now that the WoG is gone.
I mean, their writings changed things immediately on-screen and there is a statement by Fenwick on how they write destiny. I don’t know what is a good evidence if this one is weak.
My job is to replace scans, I don’t necessarily agree with indexing itself, I always opposed BDE stuff for example and I don’t really care about Biological Manipulation stuff. If you wanna nuke them in this thread, sure I guess.
Pretty much yeah. It’s not like he can manipulate everything that is evil or come out of an evil person, he just embodies it and is the source of it.
I see, sure.
Basically it forced Elemental Powers onto their bodies, or something. I am not really feeling strong about this.
Resistance to Age Manipulation was because Tommy Andreasen confirmed that
Resurrected.
OK.
Lol
As I said before, I just replace the scanies… I don’t really agree with BDE myself cuz being outside of all Realms does not mean one literally exists outside of all dimensionality.
Overlord can destroy the Balance, that’s on his profile. And both Overlord and FSM have UES so…
Ig I can just use the fact that he defeated him.
Again, just replacing scanies. I have them at Class M myself.
I think @AigerTheKing replied to this earlier in the thread.
I already told @FinePoint earlier in the thread that what is meant by this is that typically, this is home to the cursed dead souls, not that literally anyone who enters it is cursed. Lloyd was obviously not. Technically, any being can enter it easily with Dimensional Travel.
Answered in other BDE parts.
Sure.
Eh, not really contradictory? The point is not that all Elemental Essences resist Vengestone (OP already has a scan where Wu’s Elemental Essence was affected), but just Oni’s and Overlord’s powers.
You need to actively be on paper to write someone’s destiny, and he was not actively on the paper so…
Not inherently, but for Season 5, Ghost Warriors were unaffected by the Fate because of Fenwick’s intervention. That’s what in the scans. And Ghost Warriors die by the end of Season 5 so it should apply to the profiles.
Tbf it’s my bad. I think wanted to use the series scan but accidentally used this.
Realm Crystal was created by FSM, eh.
This was Departed Realm, not Cursed Realm. They are different (technically they were different because of the Merge but you get the point).
This is not what I meant at all. I meant that the fact they resist the Vengestone effects but mainly that they can have multiple "elemental users" at once they can makes them special, and I later on precised that the Vengestone resistance was specifically applicable to some essences.
Yeah, that's why we are arguing Fenwick gave him that ability...
Other scan says they have the Strength of the Star to be specific. And anyways they scale to 4-C characters, this is just supportive
No, its to demonstrate GM Overlord > DF Overlord, not USM > DF Overlord
The same power he uses to do that is the same power he use to physical amp himself. And Im pretty sure its stated that he's physical that strong
I thought lifting a Moon from Earth to the sky was self evident enough for it to not require a calc, and Nadakhan feat was calced at Class E, and the staff evaluation was based on a very unrealistic size
Scaling Kalmaar to Wojira is illogical when she beats people who were comparable to him. Its def some pain manip involved there
Lloyd doesn't enter as a dead being as he is clearly shown to be alive. Dead beings looks like this:
The Preeminent was never implied to do that. The Realm Crystal makes the Portal
From the Realm Crystal specifically
And then the cursed soul gets stuck
You do, because non cursed souls gets sent inside the Departed Realm
Regarding the whole Kalmaar controlling Wojira thing, everytime Kalmaar uses his trident to control Wojira He hits her in the Wave Amulet located in her head which is stated to be the key to controlling Wojira. So it's basically something specific to Wojira having the Amulet not AP related or pain hax related.
fair then
Those Class M feats were mostly being done with either absolute ease or mental nerf (for the Lloyd one)
Why would Crystal spawning on their body be against Biological Manipulation when Shape changing is a qualifier to this?
I didn’t say I disagree with it, crystals growing out of them is a textbook Biological Manipulation to me, I just said that I don’t care if it stays or not
Alright. So some Elemental Essences are not affected by Vengestone, then?
If this is the entire line of thinking then my vote is to just remove the ability. Fenwick having done something isn't an ability of the ghosts.
Cool, then list that, because neither of these are 4-C feats.
then why is it in Lloyd's page and why is it stated to be about Lloyd
This doesn't mention amps?
Could be, hence why I asked if it was already approved, i.e., in use on profiles. If they scale to that already, then why were they Class T here?
Ym pointed out why this is probably incorrect so we'll move on.
I did not say he entered dead, man. I said he left alive.
My house is a home for me but I can still get robbed, man.
Excessively fair. Given that we're approaching this from zero on a few points, I do have to evaluate it like that, though. I suppose I'm neutral on Bio but BDE should go.
Genuinely, if this was the video provided originally, that would have made so much sense, holy hell. I obviously turned my opinion around before after being provided it, so the Fate Manip is fine (still anti-Fate Manip resistance).
We'll look past the cosmology shit for now, presuming it doesn't interface with WoG scan replacement.
Please do
Then yeah, you and I share an interpretation here, no qualms with that.
Yeah if this is the case then it's fine, Resistance to Power Null for those guys specifically is fine.
Bear with me for a moment.
I did not mean to imply the Preeminent created the crystal, only that he used the crystal to create a portal. That said, Aiger felt it important to note that the crystal itself created the portal (but I don't really think that's central to the point, so... cool, I suppose)
THEY COMBINED. Okay. I'm doing the teensiest about of looking into things aside from what is in the CRT to see if external info provides context, I did think these two were one and the same. I get it now, thank you. The core point there is that you don't need to be cursed to get in, but at least the lore isn't contradictory on this point.
Yes
You can get abilities/resistance by being blessed by the power of others. I don't really understand your point
No idea, but this is supposed to be about GM
Elements make EMs stronger as they are shown to grow weaker without them. This is my point
Cuz its very consistant for Cole and the others tbh, and there's likely other LS feats we never cared about calcing but could grant a higher rating
That implies he has some kind of resistance if we take into account what happens when u hop into the Realm
Where is this from. It's got ****** up grammar, so I'd like a source.
If the high ball feats are inconsistent then I don't care to discuss them?
That's irrelevant to what we're talking about here. I encourage you to read the OP.
To be fair, the point of the thread is to gather evidence, so I'd say this is it serving its purpose.
Reckon a few more things are circling the drain. When they're done I'll post my final opinions.
This is the "exploding sun" he is talking about by the way (clearly not even close to being a real sun), also we have no clue how exactly the artifact was created all we know is that it's an ancient Phoenix artifact. (I really don't see why this is even a big deal, everyone already scales to 4-C via other feats so removing this wouldn't affect the profiles and ratings)
If that's true then yes, this is obviously not a supporting feat for 4-C, either.
I litterally sent a scan before saying Cole is as strong as a mountain, and you say "it doesn't mention amps". What ?
They aren't inconsistent to the users either, but as I said before, lots of good LS feats don't have calcs (so we can't use them rn) while we have several statements of Cole having Class T LS
Yeah, and the point of the thread isn't to revise things that aren't even touched by WoG, which I feel like Bambu and the others are going for rn
Well, all of Ninjago is on trial, so to me potentially everything is up for scrutiny right now.
Sure, I can see this.
LEGO for some reason started taking out very old scans from YT, idk why suddenly so much stricter. So yes, this can add a lot of confusion.
I'll just say that Fenwick's intervention is supposedly exactly how Morro, one of the ghosts, "defied destiny". But, take that as you wish.
Alright, this is cool.
When you both have final opinions, can you summarize it? I'm pretty sure you agree with the majority of what I proposed so far, and the rest I either don't really care arguing or actually agree for it to be rejected/removed, so I probably won't look into this CRT much longer. So, a little summary would be a good help. Thanks.
Well there's a lot of specific things. Since Bambu said earlier he agreed with a lot of my points, and plans on doing his own summary later, I will probably just point out any specific areas I might disagree with him, and otherwise you can assume him and I agree.
That isn't an amp? It's a statement of his power, not that he can then make himself stronger. The video is at least relevant for that bit of discussion.
You're telling me two different things.
I am taking damage to my sanity as we speak, you understand this, yes? I am addressing issues as they come up, man, only to be bombarded with evidence that never seems to be appropriately justification for what is given. I'm just trying to get this over with.
Disagree entirely.
Agree entirely.
Agree.
Disagree with Power Absorption, agree with Power Nullification.
As I have learned that this is meant to be a Resistance, Disagree entirely.
Agree.
Somewhat agree; evidence does not seem to suggest magic has diverse "different kinds", but is rather split between good and not-good magic (under different names such as "dark" magic). Still, the phrasing is still technically correct.
Agree entirely.
Agree entirely.
Neutral.
Disagree entirely.
In that this is to justify a resistance, rather than the ability of Fate Manipulation on behalf of their master, Disagree entirely.
Agree entirely.
Agree, but it should be revised to take note of the fact that it is detecting the heat signature of the ghost.
Agree entirely.
Agree with Power Nullification, Disagree with Power Absorption.
Disagree entirely.
Disagree entirely.
Agree entirely.
Agree entirely.
Disagree entirely, not in that this is not what the scan says but that this is relevant for 4-C scaling, which seems to be the sole purpose of the scan.
Disagree entirely, though this can be used as evidence regarding that other thing Aiger was arguing for, which doesn't seem mentioned on this CRT (that Gold!Overlord is superior to Dragon!Overlord). Agree entirely to the evidence later brought up by Orange here: "Ig I can just use the fact that he defeated him."
Agree.
Neutral. Feel like LS should probably have a discussion of its own divorced from this one? The evidence as is kinda sucks but better evidence exists. I'm not advocating for that to happen next (I am very willing to not hear about Ninjago for awhile), but this is a more complicated point than this CRT is equipped to tackle, I think.
Agree entirely.
Disagree entirely.
Agree entirely.
Agree entirely.
Agree entirely.
Agree.
Agree entirely.
Disagree entirely.
Agree entirely.
Agree entirely.
Disagree entirely.
Agree entirely.
Agree entirely.
U said it was reliant on Earth Manipulation, so I used this to refute this with the fact he has Class T LS
The video was to prove that his Element makes him stronger as he is weaker without them
You initially argued that the verse peak was Class M because of 2 calcs, which is why I pulled higher calculations that other people scale to
Ok
I am male
Just one little thingie about the “only by becoming cursed”: can I replace it with “is home to the cursed dead souls” or something of that nature, basically saying that cursed dead souls are usually in there but without implying that it is a necessity to become cursed to ever enter there? It appeared to me that this was plausible to you.
I'm pretty sure @KingTempest agreed with you, and your stance hasn't changed much, so...
Let's just make sure.
@KingTempest
