East Blue Luffy Is Cracked

[That_moron2]

East Blue sucks, so I'm making it suck less. All the calcs are accepted.

Calcs​

The calcs for Attack Potency are:
Hatchan Kills an Eel (8-A to Low 7-C) [Support]
Hatchan Pushes a Reef (High 7-C)
Whisky Peak Explosion (High 7-C)
And for Speed:
Luffy Dodges Bullets (High Hypersonic+)
Finally Lifting Strength:
Hatchan Pushes Reef (Class T)

Scaling​

The scaling can be found in these sandboxes. We're merging East Blue through Drum Island based on the fact that
1. Zoro killed Mr. 7 before the series even began (scans are in the sandbox).
2. They show no signs of a strength increase before Alabasta
Alabasta will not be merged (except for Chopper and Usopp), as Luffy, Zoro, Nami, and Sanji show a clear increase in strength (First Key Luffy~First Key Zoro~First Key Sanji~Mr. 3<Mr. 4<Mr. 2~Second Key Sanji<Zoro>Mr. 1~Ms. Doublefinger~Nami's Climatact<Mr. 0~Second Key Luffy)

Agree: @KingTempest

Neutral:

Disagree: @Damage3245

 

[KingTempest]

Already saw it all, so I agree

 

[Damage3245]

I'm neutral on this. I'll have to go through the calcs in my own time.

 

[Kachon123]

Looks good

 

[Bananossauro]

Why are they scaling to the full explosion?

 

[That_moron2]

Why are they scaling to the full explosion?

Igaram was in the epicenter

 

[FinePoint]

Can retired Calc Group Members approve calculations?

 

[That_moron2]

Can retired Calc Group Members approve calculations?

It was approved when he was still a CGM. its basically been lying around unused forever

 

[Damage3245]

Can retired Calc Group Members approve calculations?

If you're referring to the speed calc, Mitch wasn't retired at the time.

 

[FinePoint]

If you're referring to the speed calc, Mitch wasn't retired at the time.

I see.

In that case, I don't have a problem with this, assuming the calculations all remain approved.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Hatchan Kills an Eel (8-A to Low 7-C): Nothing is given for the size of the sea king in the low-end. The post just pulls numbers out of nowhere without any reason. At least the high-end says they're using a size of 5 km. The low-end gives literally nothing. There's something seriously wrong here. Is there a scan missing?

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see what's going on here. Also, the calc uses the size of a male eel and the weight of a female. The females are noted as being larger and heavier. If you're using the highest weight, you should use the biggest size as well. You shouldn't mix and match it.

Whisky Peak Explosion (High 7-C): We don't accept explosions as being 20 psi by default anymore. We follow this chart in the explosion yield page. As the explosion destroyed a wooden ship, we should use 6-8 PSI instead. I cannot judge if the explosion size is correct or not, but are we certain the explosion source was on that person's body? If we aren't shown where the explosion was in relation to that person, we cannot just assume it happened on top of them.

Even a 1 meter distance can drastically reduce the results. Considering Robin doesn't have the ability to create explosions, there had to be a bomb somewhere on the ship. Likely down below so he wouldn't see it? I'm not sure how to calculate this kind of distance, but it should be taken into consideration.

Luffy Dodges Bullets (High Hypersonic+): Why is the calc assuming Luffy reached that distance beyond Krieg, at the same time the bullets moved 0.10 meters? That's not shown anywhere in the scans. Since this is a manga we don't know when exactly Luffy moved, but we can make a reasonable assumption.

The assumption used by the calculation is the maximum assumption. The minimum assumption is the distance Luffy needs to move to avoid being hit by the shield gun thing. This would still line up with the panels. As I'll say once again, nothing in the panel with Luffy behind Krieg shows that the bullets only moved 0.10 meters.

Hatchan Pushes a Reef (High 7-C): The movement of the rock is measured wrong. It's moving away from the "camera" at an angle, meaning you need to use angular size. You cannot pixel scale something moving towards the camera by drawing a line like that.

Hatchan Pushes Reef (Class T): What exactly is being done here to find kgf? I've never seen this method, can the calc creator explain in full detail what they're doing? I think I know what they're doing, but something looks wrong. I need a full explanation before I say anything, less I look like an idiot.

 

[Damage3245]

Well, I was staying neutral but I pretty much agree with all of Rusty's points.

 

[That_moron2]

Is there a scan missing?

Yes, I added it

Also, the calc uses the size of a male eel and the weight of a female.

Somehow missed that, fixed now.

Whisky Peak Explosion (High 7-C): We don't accept explosions as being 20 psi by default anymore. We follow this chart in the explosion yield page. As the explosion destroyed a wooden ship, we should use 6-8 PSI instead.

You're ignoring the lore behind this explosion, it was meant to kill Igaram who is a superhuman so 20 psi (described as 100% fatalities) shouldn't be an impossibilty.

cannot judge if the explosion size is correct or not, but are we certain the explosion source was on that person's body? If we aren't shown where the explosion was in relation to that person, we cannot just assume it happened on top of them.

Even a 1 meter distance can drastically reduce the results. Considering Robin doesn't have the ability to create explosions, there had to be a bomb somewhere on the ship. Likely down below so he wouldn't see it? I'm not sure how to calculate this kind of distance, but it should be taken into consideration.

We can see in the anime she used her powers to place it there. Why would she place it anywhere but next to him given she had to be certain he was dead?

Luffy Dodges Bullets (High Hypersonic+): Why is the calc assuming Luffy reached that distance beyond Krieg, at the same time the bullets moved 0.10 meters? That's not shown anywhere in the scans. Since this is a manga we don't know when exactly Luffy moved, but we can make a reasonable assumption.

The assumption used by the calculation is the maximum assumption. The minimum assumption is the distance Luffy needs to move to avoid being hit by the shield gun thing. This would still line up with the panels. As I'll say once again, nothing in the panel with Luffy behind Krieg shows that the bullets only moved 0.10 meters.

He had jumped out of Krieg's view before the bullets hit him, as we can see by the "!" by Krieg.

Hatchan Pushes a Reef (High 7-C): The movement of the rock is measured wrong. It's moving away from the "camera" at an angle, meaning you need to use angular size. You cannot pixel scale something moving towards the camera by drawing a line like that.

Fair enough, though I think the result would be similar

Hatchan Pushes Reef (Class T): What exactly is being done here to find kgf? I've never seen this method, can the calc creator explain in full detail what they're doing? I think I know what they're doing, but something looks wrong. I need a full explanation before I say anything, less I look like an idiot.

I'll just let Kachon answer this

 

[Damage3245]

We can see in the anime she used her powers to place it there. Why would she place it anywhere but next to him given she had to be certain he was dead?

Nico Robin isn't actually loyal to Crocodile; and given that Igaram survived with barely more than a scratch it is questionable that Nico Robin actually placed the bomb in a way to deliberately kill him.

He had jumped out of Krieg's view before the bullets hit him, as we can see by the "!" by Krieg.

Or he moved out of the way before the bullets were even fired which fulfills the same requirement of moving before the bullets hit him.

 

[That_moron2]

Nico Robin isn't actually loyal to Crocodile; and given that Igaram survived without so much as a scratch it is questionable that Nico Robin actually placed the bomb in a way to deliberately kill him.

Robin isn't disloyal either. The only reason she saved Luffy was because she found him interesting, otherwise she helped Crocodile the entire time. There's also the idea that Igaram was just tougher than she thought, and that's why he survived.

 

[Damage3245]

I don't think it's a good idea to rely on an off-screen durability feat, where distance does actually play a significant role, as the foundational feat for scaling every single East Blue Saga character. You can change me to disagree in the OP please.

 

[That_moron2]

I don't think it's a good idea to rely on an off-screen durability feat, where distance does actually play a significant role, as the foundational feat for scaling every single East Blue Saga character. You can change me to disagree in the OP please.

Done

 

[YmTheSuper]

Hatchan Pushes a Reef (High 7-C)
Hatchan Pushes Reef (Class T)

I'm confused on how this was calculated.

You're supposed to find the normal force N which is equal to the weight of the object and then multiply it by the coefficient of friction μ (which is 0.4 in this case) to find the force of friction (Ff=N*μ=N*0.4) and then multiply it by the displacement to find the energy needed to move the object.

Spoiler: Some calculations

Basically the normal force would be: N=mg=9318537*9.81=91414848N
The force of friction would be:
Ff=N*μ=91414848*0.4=
36565939.2N
And the energy would be:
W=F*d=Ff*d=36565939.2*14.382743362832=525918519.335J (9-A)
A huge difference in energy.

(In the original calculation the mass was never multiplied by g, what is called the Normal Force is actually the friction and for some reason there is an additional line where the friction is multiplied by the mass of the rock which made the values much higher.)

 

[TheRustyOne]

Yes, I added it

Somehow missed that, fixed now.

Math seems fine now. Not certain if that creature equates to an eel, but maybe I'm splitting hairs.

I'll let people more knowledgeable take on the scaling in this case.

You're ignoring the lore behind this explosion, it was meant to kill Igaram who is a superhuman so 20 psi (described as 100% fatalities) shouldn't be an impossibilty.

We can see in the anime she used her powers to place it there. Why would she place it anywhere but next to him given she had to be certain he was dead?

That's irrelevant. We don't treat 20 psi explosions as 100% fatalities only, that happens way before 20 psi. Your using old standards, that's why it's not mentioned. Killing a person doesn't make an explosion 20 psi. Being able to shatter a wooden structure takes far more energy than killing a person, yet is only in the 6-8 psi range.

We don't see her place a bomb, we only see her arms. I don't see anything saying she placed it right on his body or even in that moment. Even in front of him can be too far. Considering the size of the explosion and what it did to the boat. She might've even saved his life somehow, but that's speculation you can ignore on my part.

I agree with Damage that this is unusable for scaling, but I'm not staff in this case so... whatever.

He had jumped out of Krieg's view before the bullets hit him, as we can see by the "!" by Krieg.

That still doesn't mean he moved that full distance. However, Krieg's reaction is independent of the bullets. I see nothing suggesting why my claim is incorrect. Luffy only needs to move out of the bullet's path before they reach his position. He doesn't need to get all the way behind Krieg in that timeframe.

I'm not going to even get into the argument on if Krieg fired before or after Luffy began moving. I'd prefer the latter, since this is manga and we can't tell, but whatever.

 

[YmTheSuper]

Math seems fine now.

I believe the value used for the mass in the low end potential energy calc is wrong (842239720.356 kg is used while it should be 215764446.209 kg), also the length of a male eel is still being used instead of the length of a female eel despite using the weight of a female eel.

Whisky Peak Explosion (High 7-C)

In addition to the mistakes in the calculation that Rusty mentioned regarding the psi and the distance from the center of the explosion I do believe that this feat shouldn't be used.

Not only is Igaram almost completely uninjured but he also managed to reach Alabasta safely from Whisky Peak despite his ship being very clearly destroyed (Alabasta and Whisky Peak are 2 islands that are very far away leaving him no way to travel between them without the ship and when the ship got destroyed he was in the middle of the sea)

Also Robin is very clearly not loyal to Crocodile since she betrayed him by saving Luffy and also since she betrayed the organizations she joined in general before joining the Straw Hats. (Also, if she planned to kill Igaram and he happened to survive the explosion she would have found him since she was in the rubble of the ship right after the explosion happened, so I don't think it's absurd that she saved him or made sure that the explosion wouldn't kill him and then helped him reach Alabasta)

 

[That_moron2]

We don't treat 20 psi explosions as 100% fatalities only, that happens way before 20 psi. Your using old standards, that's why it's not mentioned. Killing a person doesn't make an explosion 20 psi. Being able to shatter a wooden structure takes far more energy than killing a person, yet is only in the 6-8 psi range.

Yes but Igaram is a superhuman who is far superior to the billions, who are stronger than the millions who are trained bounty hunters.

We don't see her place a bomb, we only see her arms. I don't see anything saying she placed it right on his body or even in that moment.

The implication is she’s placing the bomb, as the explosion happens right after her hands are shown. Her placing it as near to him as possible is just basic logic, since she was tasked with killing him in the first place.

 

[That_moron2]

Not only is Igaram almost completely uninjured

That just upscales his durability.

but he also managed to reach Alabasta safely from Whisky Peak despite his ship being very clearly destroyed (Alabasta and Whisky Peak are 2 islands that are very far away leaving him no way to travel between them without the ship and when the ship got destroyed he was in the middle of the sea)

How is this relevant? He just got a different ship after the fact.

Also Robin is very clearly not loyal to Crocodile since she betrayed him by saving Luffy. (Also, if she planned to kill Igaram and he happened to survive the explosion she would have found him since she was in the rubble of the ship right after the explosion happened, so I don't think it's absurd that she saved him or made sure that the explosion wouldn't kill him and then helped him reach Alabasta)

I already addressed the first part, the second part doesn’t mean she went out of her way to kill him, just that she assumed he died from the explosion and then probably sank into the ocean which she can’t search because she’s a devil fruit user

 

[KingTempest]

Rusty's additions are fine
@YmTheSuper I don't know how you intend to explain how he was uninjured by saying "not only is he almost completely uninjured" when over 3 weeks pass afterwards and a BOMB blew up under his feet.
Robin's loyalty to Crocodile was absolute until faced with the thought of the D, which is why she saved Luffy. So the "saved igaram" theory is moot.
We saw her snap Pell's back. We saw her about to stab Tashigi.
Her loyalty was absolute until it was time to get the info of the Poneglyph. That is it. So any and everything else, moot

 

[CloverDragon03]

Well, I was staying neutral but I pretty much agree with all of Rusty's points.

Damage, I know I'm late the party and I mean no disrespect, but there's no way you read through the calcs and came to your own conclusions within the 2 minutes between Rusty's post and yours. Don't say you're neutral if you're just waiting for someone to disagree so you can also disagree

There's still calcs to fix, I think we're hard-pressed to specifically say "Agree" or "Disagree" so soon.

Atm, the only calc to really speak on definitively is the first one since it was actually adjusted. The others are more "this needs to be adjusted" rather than "we just can't use this, full stop." For instance, I disagree on changing the PSI value for the explosion, but the durability part is valid and that would drastically affect the results. The reef push calc would also be super relevant once it's fixed, as I don't imagine the value will change too drastically. At least, not enough to where it won't be relevant anymore

 

[Damage3245]

Damage, I know I'm late the party and I mean no disrespect, but there's no way you read through the calcs and came to your own conclusions within the 2 minutes between Rusty's post and yours. Don't say you're neutral if you're just waiting for someone to disagree so you can also disagree

Why do you think i didn't look through the calcs before Rusty made his own comment? I wasn't specifically waiting for someone to disagree, i just didn't want to get involved earlier.

 

[Damage3245]

That just upscales his durability.

That is not the only option.

There are some obvious contradictions if we look for examples of characters comparable to Igaram bring hurt more severely by weaker explosions.

 

[YmTheSuper]

The reef push calc would also be super relevant once it's fixed, as I don't imagine the value will change too drastically. At least, not enough to where it won't be relevant anymore

The calc method is completely wrong as I pointed out here (The original calculations literally got 34734052700000 N from pushing a 9318537 kg rock, that's many orders of magnitude higher, surprised how this went unnoticed)

Atm, the only calc to really speak on definitively is the first one since it was actually adjusted.

Actually this still needs to be adjusted (this one is not that big of deal it wouldn't change the values much)

the value used for the mass in the low end potential energy calc is wrong (842239720.356 kg is used while it should be 215764446.209 kg), also the length of a male eel is still being used instead of the length of a female eel despite using the weight of a female eel.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Why do you think i didn't look through the calcs before Rusty made his own comment? I wasn't specifically waiting for someone to disagree, i just didn't want to get involved earlier.

Because you yourself said you needed to go through them on your own time. Plus, I've seen this exact song and dance of being neutral up until someone disagrees and then it's an instant shift to disagree. I don't wish to go into this at length since it's not the point of the thread, but I think I'm allowed to point out repeated patterns like this

 

[CloverDragon03]

The calc method is completely wrong as I pointed out here (The original calculations literally got 34734052700000 N from pushing a 9318537 kg rock, that's many orders of magnitude higher, surprised how this went unnoticed)

Frankly I was only paying attention to Rusty's comments. Normal force depends on gravitational force (weight), not the applied force in the original calc, so you are correct here. Plus, there's the distance thing Rusty mentioned

 

[Damage3245]

Because you yourself said you needed to go through them on your own time. Plus, I've seen this exact song and dance of being neutral up until someone disagrees and then it's an instant shift to disagree. I don't wish to go into this at length since it's not the point of the thread, but I think I'm allowed to point out repeated patterns like this

Well, you can make whatever assumptions you would prefer to instead of listening to me of course. All I can do if tell you the truth from my perspective; I can't make you believe me.

The truth was that I did spot some of the flaws in the calcs that Rusty pointed out but I thought it would be better to go through them in detail later on. Once Rusty pointed out the flaws in this thread I changed my mind and realized it would be redundant to repeat the critiques later on.

There is nothing nefarious about that. As you say though, this is is not the point of the thread. If you wish to respond to me about this you're welcome to leave a message on my wall or a DM.

 

[SlendVeny]

Makes sense to me

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Just a small thing @FinePoint was agreeing to the thread as long as the calc had no issues, and since it's being contested right now, he no longer counts as an agreement.

I see.

In that case, I don't have a problem with this, assuming the calculations all remain approved.

 

[That_moron2]

I believe the value used for the mass in the low end potential energy calc is wrong (842239720.356 kg is used while it should be 215764446.209 kg), also the length of a male eel is still being used instead of the length of a female eel despite using the weight of a female eel.

Fixed

 

[That_moron2]

There are some obvious contradictions if we look for examples of characters comparable to Igaram bring hurt more severely by weaker explosions.

When

 

[Johner2133451]

Agree

 

[FinePoint]

Just a small thing @FinePoint was agreeing to the thread as long as the calc had no issues, and since it's being contested right now, he no longer counts as an agreement.

That is correct.

I didn't have a problem with the scaling and relevance, but if there's an issue with the math that's beyond my purview.

Consequently, though, I will once again count as an agreement as soon as those issues are sorted.

 

[YmTheSuper]

I don't know how you intend to explain how he was uninjured by saying "not only is he almost completely uninjured" when over 3 weeks pass afterwards and a BOMB blew up under his feet.

The main point is that his ship got destroyed (his method of transportation and also destroying Alabasta's eternal pose which is absolutely necessary to sail an unpredictable and treacherous sea like The Grand Line, especially since he's traveling directly to Alabasta which is located far away and as he states it's 2 to 3 log pose stops away), the ship was blown up in the middle of the sea leaving him stranded and he got hit by an explosion that was supposed to kill him and yet despite all of this he managed to reach Alabasta safely (He reached Alabasta only a day or two after the Straw Hats) and Robin happened to be where the wreck happened and where Igaram was right after the explosion. This leads me to believe that it's very likely that she helped him or interfered in some way.

Robin's loyalty to Crocodile was absolute until faced with the thought of the D, which is why she saved Luffy. So the "saved igaram" theory is moot.
We saw her snap Pell's back. We saw her about to stab Tashigi.
Her loyalty was absolute until it was time to get the info of the Poneglyph. That is it. So any and everything else, moot

I wouldn't exactly call her completely loyal to Crocodile.
She never told him about Sanji despite knowing that he was part of the strawhats making Crocodile think that he caught all the straw hats (she even smiles in the next panel, subtly hinting that it was her intention), she helped Vivi learn about the identity of Mr. 0 and then brushed it off as mockery and she even gave them an eternal pose that helps them avoid Little Garden (although I guess this actually could be a trap since it leads to Nanimonai Island).
Also her betraying every organization she joins is a whole plot point.

 

[KingTempest]

The main point is that his ship got destroyed (his method of transportation and also destroying Alabasta's eternal pose which is absolutely necessary to sail an unpredictable and treacherous sea like The Grand Line, especially since he's traveling directly to Alabasta which is located far away and as he states it's 2 to 3 log pose stops away), the ship was blown up in the middle of the sea leaving him stranded and he got hit by an explosion that was supposed to kill him and yet despite all of this he managed to reach Alabasta safely (He reached Alabasta only a day or two after the Straw Hats) and Robin happened to be where the wreck happened and where Igaram was right after the explosion. This leads me to believe that it's very likely that she helped him or interfered in some way.

100% conjecture btw
This the same verse where Pell got blown up and crawled all the way back on his own. Where Rayleigh swam to the middle of the calm belt to find a random island in the middle of the sea after swimming past the most dangerous unpredictable sea ever. Where Pound got impaled by Oven and came back kicking and found his daughters. It's literally just plot. None of this matters

I wouldn't exactly call her completely loyal to Crocodile.
She never told him about Sanji despite knowing that he was part of the strawhats making Crocodile think that he caught all the straw hats (she even smiles in the next panel, subtly hinting that it was her intention), she helped Vivi learn about the identity of Mr. 0 and then brushed it off as mockery and she even gave them an eternal pose that helps them avoid Little Garden (although I guess this actually could be a trap since it leads to Nanimonai Island).
Also her betraying every organization she joins is a whole plot point.

That's great.
What proves that she rigged the explosive?
What you think she got "Igaram proof bombs"?

 

[That_moron2]

Bump

 

[Damage3245]

Did the comments on Hatchan's reef calc get addressed?