Dragon ball(Classic) Speed + Ap upgrade

[Gp972]

Speed

Roshi/Goku 22° Budokai/Ten Shin Han/ 50% Piccolo Daimao: 0.100435017c

Piccolo Daimao 100%: 0.200870034

Young Piccolo daimao/ Goku Post Ultra Divine Water(Goku is several times stronger than before, Piccolo daimao, is equal to him): 0.301305051c

Goku 23° Budokai/ Piccolo Jr(Piccolo jr is several times stronger than Piccolo daimao, Goku his comparable to him): 0.903915153c

Goku raditz saga/Piccolo(Goku is x2 stronger than his 23rd Tournament saga self, piccolo is comparable to him): 1.807830306c

AP

Old Piccolo Daimao defeated Goku (Post-22nd Budokai) without using half his power: >3.00312735182 Yottatons (Planet level+)

Piccolo daimao in his youth is much stronger and is equal to Post-Chōshinsui Goku who is several times stronger than before "Several times" meaning at low-ball 3x: >4.50469102773 Yottatons (Large Planet level)

Oozaru Goku: >45.0469102773 Yottatons (Large Planet level)

Piccolo Jr. Saga

Piccolo Jr. (unweighted) is several times stronger than Piccolo Daimao, Goku (unweighted) is equal to him. "Several times" meaning at low-ball 3x: >13.51407308319 Yottatons (Large Planet level)

Goku raditz saga/Piccolo(Goku is x2 stronger than his 23rd Tournament saga self, Piccolo is comparable to him): >27.02814616638 Yottatons (Large planet level)

Extra:

"Several times" is at lowball x3

Speed increases along with strength

#Note 2: It has been stated numerous times across various sources in the series that a larger ki means greater statistics – statistics such as strength and overall power, speed, aerial capabilities, destructive capacity, and defense.

Translation of the japanese text:

The Turtle Hermit (Master Roshi) attempts to seal King Piccolo using the Evil Containment Wave (Mafuba), but tragically fails and dies with deep regret. Finally, King Piccolo gathers all seven Dragon Balls and makes his wish to restore his youth. After his wish is granted, he kills Shenron, deeming it unnecessary. Meanwhile, Goku climbs Korin Tower once more and drinks the Ultra Divine Water, which multiplies his strength several times over. At the same time, Tien Shinhan is about to be killed by one of King Piccolo's minions, Drum, but Goku arrives just in time. Thus begins the showdown between Goku and King Piccolo.

Thats all, is a upgrade for Dragon Ball Ap blog and Dragon ball speed blog

 

[Huesito88]

A downgrade and now an upgrade hmmm

 

[Gp972]

A downgrade and now an upgrade hmmm

If you can't beat them join them

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Sure ig

 

[MeiouHades]

Swinging wilder than the weather in Texas

 

[UnoRebaixadO]

Hmm, I'll wait for more opinions

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Real straightforward

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The AP upgrades seem self explanatory, but I'm not sold on "Every single statement about being X times stronger always equals being X times faster." I agree it's common for transformation multipliers to multiply power and speed, but not for every single case of just getting stronger. They do not always get buffed 100% consistently though.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Actually, if we accept a 3x multiplier for Goku and then Piccolo, then we would also have to either outright ignore the DB Saga Power Levels or consider them non-linear, given the Ultra Divine Water only brings Goku up from 180 to 260 (1.444x), and Piccolo Jr.'s Power Level could have only increased, at the most (408; assuming he was equal to King Piccolo rather than being more powerful and did not grow any more powerful before DB and DBZ), by 1.98058252x.

Are we doing that?

 

[Gp972]

Actually, if we accept a 3x multiplier for Goku and then Piccolo, then we would also have to either outright ignore the DB Saga Power Levels or consider them non-linear, given the Ultra Divine Water only brings Goku up from 180 to 260 (1.444x), and Piccolo Jr.'s Power Level could have only increased, at the most (408; assuming he was equal to King Piccolo rather than being more powerful and did not grow any more powerful before DB and DBZ), by 1.98058252x.

Are we doing that?

Well yes, Piccolo daimao with less than 50% was superior to a Goku with supposedly 180, and that Piccolo had 260(If you do the math you'll see that It's wrong), the power levels are valid, as long as they do not contradict the manga, In addition to the fact that they already rejected using the power levels directly

 

[Gp972]

The AP upgrades seem self explanatory, but I'm not sold on "Every single statement about being X times stronger always equals being X times faster." I agree it's common for transformation multipliers to multiply power and speed, but not for every single case of just getting stronger. They do not always get buffed 100% consistently though.

I think they normally use "strength" As a synonym for ki/power, and we have this Goku's statement: "But if You split your strength into fourths then all yours attacks, defense and speed are only a quarter of their usual"

 

[Shar122]

This is blatant, I agree.

 

[MeiouHades]

Actually, if we accept a 3x multiplier for Goku and then Piccolo, then we would also have to either outright ignore the DB Saga Power Levels or consider them non-linear, given the Ultra Divine Water only brings Goku up from 180 to 260 (1.444x), and Piccolo Jr.'s Power Level could have only increased, at the most (408; assuming he was equal to King Piccolo rather than being more powerful and did not grow any more powerful before DB and DBZ), by 1.98058252x.

Are we doing that?

It's commonly known that power levels at this point are non-linear, or we'd have 5-B Chichi

 

[Lilybitdun]

Too new to have my opinion to hold weight but this seems pretty blatant and straightforward

 

[CloverDragon03]

Speed increasing with strength isn't the same as "a strength multiplier gives the same multiplier to speed"

 

[Damage3245]

Clover is correct.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Will have to do that in another CRT, since that's how it works rn

And pretty sure a thread that's trying to add a minor AP upgrade isn't really the place for it.

 

[StarShooter80]

Speed increasing with strength isn't the same as "a strength multiplier gives the same multiplier to speed"

In the case for Dragon Ball it is

• The Daizenshuu states speed is related to the size of someone's ki.
• By splitting his strength into a quarter of what it was before, all of Tien's stats are decreased to the same degree including speed.
• Kaio-ken, which is simply an amplification of ki, boosts all of Goku's statistics including strength, durability and speed to the same degree.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

In the case for Dragon Ball it is

• The Daizenshuu states speed is related to the size of someone's ki.
• By splitting his strength into a quarter of what it was before, all of Tien's stats are decreased to the same degree including speed.
• Kaio-ken, which is simply an amplification of ki, boosts all of Goku's statistics including strength, durability and speed to the same degree.

The difference is that Kaioken is quite specific at being equalized multipliers for both stats. Increasing Ki does increase both attack power and speed, but going from 180 to 260 is a LOT more than what the numbers suggest due to PL's behaving nonlinearly and completely inconsistency; well, it's consistent with scaling chains, but not gaps. But, there are examples where Character A is stronger but Character B is faster due to how their fighting styles work. Increase in Ki does mean increase in both power, defense, and speed, but often times, it can often be a massive jump in power while only being minimal jump in speed. The fact that Ultra Super Saiyan exists kind of shows that multipliers aren't always perfect ones for both.

 

[StarShooter80]

The difference is that Kaioken is quite specific at being equalized multipliers for both stats.

It's never implied boosting speed alongside strength is something specific to Kaio-ken

Increasing Ki does increase both attack power and speed, but going from 180 to 260 is a LOT more than what the numbers suggest due to PL's behaving nonlinearly and completely inconsistency; well, it's consistent with scaling chains, but not gaps.

I never suggested battle powers were linear (though there are some examples of it being consistent but I digress) nor are my previously stated examples reliant on them

The fact that Ultra Super Saiyan exists kind of shows that multipliers aren't always perfect ones for both.

Grade 3 directly sacrifices speed for strength it's not just a regular boost

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It's never implied boosting speed alongside strength is something specific to Kaio-ken

I didn't say "Specific to Kaioken" I just mean Kaioken is indeed the best example about "Kaioken times 10 is a 10x multiplier for power, speed, and defense." Super Saiyan transformations by extension are also within those realms due to common similarities and lack of contradiction. But a throwaway "Million times stronger" statements are rarely seen as amps for power and speed equally. Also, not like jumping to 2-C made someone Infinite/Immeasurable speed.

Grade 3 directly sacrifices speed for strength it's not just a regular boost

I know this, that is kind of a point. Sometimes, characters trained strength that did minimal speed buffs, and other times trained speed that did minimal power buffs. Goku training with Korin is another example; the climbing part mainly multiplied strength/endurance while chasing Korin for the water was a speed/reflex training.

 

[StarShooter80]

I didn't say "Specific to Kaioken" I just mean Kaioken is indeed the best example about "Kaioken times 10 is a 10x multiplier for power, speed, and defense." Super Saiyan transformations by extension are also within those realms due to common similarities and lack of contradiction. But a throwaway "Million times stronger" statements are rarely seen as amps for power and speed equally.

Those statements in-themselves are just hyperboles and what's being proposed is nothing like that really. We don't take multipliers like these at face value in the first place

Also, not like jumping to 2-C made someone Infinite/Immeasurable speed.

2-C is just how we quantify the feat, there's no multiplier statement or implication that SSG is an infinite amp difference from base. It's the same reason why we don't say "Super Perfect Cell is way over a million times faster than First Form Frieza due to the calc difference between their feats"

 

[Omegabronic]

Will have to do that in another CRT, since that's how it works rn

And pretty sure a thread that's trying to add a minor AP upgrade isn't really the place for it.

or maybe we undo it, don't wrongs don't make a right

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

We've already had a thread discuss the power and speed relationship with very few forms having this exception as a specific weakness



Anyway, this should suffice (I hope)

images-2024-12-31-T142617-563 hosted at ImgBB

Image images-2024-12-31-T142617-563 in the Speed and Strenght album

ibb.co

Pay extra attention to the second image there

 

[Omegabronic]

We've already had a thread discuss the power and speed relationship with very few forms having this exception as a specific weakness



Anyway, this should suffice (I hope)

images-2024-12-31-T142617-563 hosted at ImgBB

Image images-2024-12-31-T142617-563 in the Speed and Strenght album

ibb.co

Pay extra attention to the second image there

we also had a thread rejected on the notion that nowhere in this, or any other scan, it is said that it is a rule that speed and power grow at the exact same rate... Butter for example is faster than he is strong, and Dyspo is also, even when Toppo said that Jiren was the strongest in Universe 11, he still said Dyspo was faster

 

[Huesito88]

Butter for example is faster than he is strong, and Dyspo is also, even when Toppo said that Jiren was the strongest in Universe 11, he still said Dyspo was faster

Who's Butter?

 

[CloverDragon03]

In the case for Dragon Ball it is

• The Daizenshuu states speed is related to the size of someone's ki.
• By splitting his strength into a quarter of what it was before, all of Tien's stats are decreased to the same degree including speed.
• Kaio-ken, which is simply an amplification of ki, boosts all of Goku's statistics including strength, durability and speed to the same degree.

First point doesn't prove anything, it's exactly like what I'm saying. And the fact that only specific techniques change your AP and speed by the same amount is the nail in the coffin

I've seen this being abused on DB profiles to achieve inflated results that have no strong basis and I'm not a fan. So I'd like to start by at least trying to not let this one pass

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

First point doesn't prove anything, it's exactly like what I'm saying. And the fact that only specific techniques change your AP and speed by the same amount is the nail in the coffin

I've seen this being abused on DB profiles to achieve inflated results that have no strong basis and I'm not a fan. So I'd like to start by at least trying to not let this one pass

Yes

Not like I haven't just dropped a scan pointing out how reducing your ki by a quarter gives you 4x less speed

But sure,

 

[CloverDragon03]

Notice how only specific techniques explicitly reduce or multiply your AP and speed by the same amount? It's evidently not a universal thing

 

[StarShooter80]

First point doesn't prove anything, it's exactly like what I'm saying. And the fact that only specific techniques change your AP and speed by the same amount is the nail in the coffin

I've seen this being abused on DB profiles to achieve inflated results that have no strong basis and I'm not a fan. So I'd like to start by at least trying to not let this one pass

How does speed being related to the size of one’s ki not prove anything? And it’s never said to be just specific to these techniques why are we being so disingenuous here?

 

[Killerdrone123]

Ah did we miss the whole point where Goku said splitting one strength/power is a bad idea since it would reduce it's overall statistics the same folds

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

or maybe we undo it, don't wrongs don't make a right

Yes, but in the Demon King Piccolo AP Upgrade thread?

Like what you're proposing is a whole rework of all of Dragon Ball's speed, from OG to DBS.

 

[CloverDragon03]

How does speed being related to the size of one’s ki not prove anything? And it’s never said to be just specific to these techniques why are we being so disingenuous here?

Disingenuous is when you question inflated ratings

"Being related" is not the same as "1-to-1 increase"

 

[StarShooter80]

Disingenuous is when you question inflated ratings

That’s not what I was saying you were disingenuous about though, this isn’t an agenda or anything. The multipliers yielding big results isn’t a counter argument anyways

"Being related" is not the same as "1-to-1 increase"

To the size of ki? i.e the very value?

 

[Gp972]

Disingenuous is when you question inflated ratings

"Being related" is not the same as "1-to-1 increase"

 

[Omegabronic]

Who's Butter?

The blue dude from Ginyu, was the fastest outside of Ginyu himself

 

[Omegabronic]

How does speed being related to the size of one’s ki not prove anything?

it doesn't show how proportional it is, like, yeah "grow stronger = grow faster" but it doesn't show "growth in the power = same growth proportionally in speed"

And it’s never said to be just specific to these techniques

Goku is talking specifically on the Kaioken, and that you "must do it right"(paraphrasing here) so trying to apply that to all other chars is not solid

 

[Omegabronic]

Yes, but in the Demon King Piccolo AP Upgrade thread?

Like what you're proposing is a whole rework of all of Dragon Ball's speed, from OG to DBS.

No one's proposing to rework it? Just not passing something that is provinly wrong to begin with

 

[Omegabronic]

What are the raws for this?

 

[Gp972]

What are the raws for this?

Japanese

Spanish